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Thread: Boost a pump setting?

  1. #16
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokie
    How is fuel pressure regulated then, by slowing down the pump?
    In simple terms, yes.

  2. #17
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyo
    In simple terms, yes.
    I like simple.
    Smokie
    12.79 @ 107 mph.
    60' 1.851 Street tires & Stock wheels.
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  3. #18
    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley@DynoPros
    That has not been my experience.
    When ever we would plumb for a/f readings for ford in their test vehicles we would sample from b4 the cat, between the first and second cat brick and after the cats. I guess you would have different formulas to figure each reading out.
    2003 300A Trilogy #80 SOLD, SOLD, SOLD.

  4. #19
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley@DynoPros
    That has not been my experience.
    Well, according to Lidio, it has been his. He was the one who told me during a phone conversation that taking A/F readings from a tailpipes sensor is NOT a good method, and that they should be taken before the cats. And I've heard that from others too. So it was my understanding that if it's taken from the seconday 02 sensor bunngs, then it wouldn't be good either, since that's after the cats. Why not just take your readings from the primary O2 sensor bungs, since they're before the cats?

    BTW, you stated that while you had the BAP set at 10, your A/F ratios were too lean, however, you didn't mention what they were. Were they over 13:1??? If not, then that's okay according to Lidio, since the Trilogy S/Cer kit is intercooled. The guy who performed my Dyno TEST (NOT dyno TUNE) told me that my A/F ratio being 13.1:1 was waaay too lean, and he wanted to tune the car for me, to get it at 10.5:1 to 11.0:1. So I walked out of that place, and called Lidio, and Lidio said that he was wrong, and that would only be neccessary for it to be running pig rich like that if the Trilogy kit didn't come with an intercooler.

    Hmmmm, something tells me that we've had this discussion before in another thread. Perhaps you didn't believe me the last time I wrote that, so maybe you still don't. If not, then good luck. As for me, I trust Lidio since he was the one who developed the tune for the Trilogy S/Cer kit in the first place, and he has been burning the tunes in the chips that come with the Trilogy kits ever since.
    Last edited by BillyGman; 10-08-2005 at 11:29 AM.

  5. #20
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    My A/F was over 14 at 6000 RPM according to the sniffer method(tailpipe sample)

    That is why I increased the Boost-a-pump setting to 20.
    It may read slightly leaner via the tailpipe method of sampleing the A/F compared to before the cats.
    It has been my experience that the difference between tail pipe and pre Cat converters is insignificant.
    I also discussed this topic at length with Lidio, I feel this method is fairly accurate and he seemed to agree.
    I also believe, If advancing the timing,(as in a dynotune) this should be done before the cats.
    Your results may vary.
    2004 Trilogy #93P 12.2@113 Built and stalled

  6. #21
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley@DynoPros
    .
    I also discussed this topic at length with Lidio, I feel this method is fairly accurate and he seemed to agree.
    Hmmm, that isn't what he told me. Oh, well........good luck....

  7. #22
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    I recently had my car dyno, there was no tuning involved, my A/F ratio taken at the tailpipe was 11.3 at 6200 rpms. It was in the mid 12's during the majority of the rpm range.

    Dennis looked at it and said it was very good, he also added that if the readings been taken before the cats it would have been richer by a factor of 1 across the the board

    Example: 12.5 at tailpipe= 11.5 at bung before cat.

    Just passing along this info, not intended for argument, just simply what I was told.
    Smokie
    12.79 @ 107 mph.
    60' 1.851 Street tires & Stock wheels.
    TIMESLIPS
    Performance Mods: Base Trilogy Kit, Exhaust, PHP Airbox.
    Visit my Garage
    Florida "The Supercharged State"


  8. #23
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    Quote Originally Posted by Smokie
    I recently had my car dyno, there was no tuning involved, my A/F ratio taken at the tailpipe was 11.3 at 6200 rpms. It was in the mid 12's during the majority of the rpm range.

    Dennis looked at it and said it was very good, he also added that if the readings been taken before the cats it would have been richer by a factor of 1 across the the board

    Example: 12.5 at tailpipe= 11.5 at bung before cat.

    Just passing along this info, not intended for argument, just simply what I was told.
    We did it both ways on my last tune and that's about what we saw.
    Thanks to Darrin @ BC Automotive:
    $1800 and it was worse than when he started!

    Brian (FordNut) FPG # 1458 of 7838
    03 MM 300A (Lotsa mods, 130k mi) was 303rwhp/318rwtq N/A
    then 476/410 D1SC ProCharged on stock block
    then 660/555 D1SC PC on 5.3 wet sleeved Teksid alum big bore stroker
    then 365/369 N/A on 5.3 wet sleeved Teksid alum big bore stroker
    Now 751/617 3.4L Whipple on 5.3 Boss5.0 iron big bore stroker

    03 MM 300B Silver (Mostly stock, originally wife's car, 370k mi) FPG # 7053 of 7838 or 49 of 417 SB
    03 MM 300B Silver, Stock, wife's next one, 136k mi FPG # 7134 of 7838 or 89 of 417 SB
    04 MM Silver, Stock, on standby 85k mi, FPG # 1212 of 3214 or 432 of 997 SB
    01 F150 longbed
    01 F150 shortbed
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    01 F150 4x4 7700
    68 Stang FB (70 351C 4V, 4 wheel discs, project car)

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  9. #24
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    The BAP from Kenne Bell is one of my favorite products because of how well they work and how reliable they are. All it is for a lack of better words is a voltage enhancer or amplifier. I’m not gona get into exactly how the BAP works or how the whole pulse width modulated return-less pumps work in the MM’s and most other Ford’s after 1999.
    The reason I’m not gona explain it all is I truthfully don’t know all the technical jargon about both of these nor do I need to. I know what to change or adjust to make them work or not work and we go from there.

    When the “return less fuel” systems started to surface in the mustangs in ’99 for us tuner shops that loved to install and tune blower cars it caused quite a tuning challenge because you couldn’t just add a traditional FMU (fuel management unit) to the return side of the fuel lines coming from the fuel rail back to the tank. The FMU basically would restrict fuel flow back to the tank under boost and cause the fuel pressure to raise way above the usual 40 or so psi, making the injectors think they were much bigger thus supporting the additional air flow of a blower. This was some what crude but did work very well, and FMU’s are still included to this day if you purchase for example a Vortech kit for a ‘98 or older mustang.

    I still custom tune those cars and typically leave the FMU on, and just work with it and better fine tune the A/F and of course spark from with in the computer tables with a chip or flash. I typically only remove the FMU’s if the car has been stepped up to much bigger injectors like 42lbs instead of the 24 or 19’s that usually come on all Ford V-8’s. Some time’s even with really big injectors like 42’s and big motors that are supercharged applications, I still use FMU’s but open them up and recalibrate them to only raise the fuel pressure lets say 3to1 not 10to1 or 12to1 like their normally set up to do…. 3to1 meaning it will raise the fuel pressure 3psi for every 1psi of boost. I do this because maybe the guy should have bought or upgraded to a 60lbs injector and just didn’t for some reason. As long as the FMU doesn’t raise the fuel psi to high and keep the injectors from opening, FMU’s are not such a bad thing.

    Sorry for that lengthy FMU thing but it leads to this…. When the return less fuel systems came out. Basically you cant just go throwing an FMU on the return less cars and all is well. They don’t have a return line to simply “pinch” off to enriching you’re A/F.
    And the computer basically isn’t happy if the fuel pressure isn’t for the most part always at about 40spi whether your at WOT or normal driving. This is why return less fuel equipped cars always got an injector upgrade with your typical blower kit like 42’s…. Because you want to move more fuel at the 40psi you have to try to work with or that the computer try’s to keep it at.
    Because return less fuel systems on Ford’s are some what sensitive to certain or after market fuel pumps this caused quite a challenge the first couple of years we started messing with the return less cars with blowers. And at that time the software we had didn’t give us access to all the fuel control stuff we needed and we didn’t fully understand it. Over the last few years we’ve learned to work with it quite well and have gone on to make some serious power with ether one or two pumps in the tanks of these newer Ford’s.

    The number one reason the Trilogy kit comes with a BAP is convenience and packaging. And of course the A/F would be lean with out it a WOT. I wanted Jerry’s kit for the MM and future kits hopefully to not have to drop the gas tank and do a fuel pump change if it was possible. To me dropping the tank, especially on the MM’s is a huge pain in the ass especially for the guy doing it at his home during a self install, so I really tried to get by with out a pump change. The BAP is a basically a Voltage enhancer and what I found is that all you need to do is make sure the pump is getting a true 13.5 to 14 volts when under WOT conditions and that’s all it took to satisfy the A/F’s that I wanted to see for the Trilogy MM kit.

    Because most automotive 12 volt electrical accessory’s are actually rated for the most part to work at just over 14 volts, you’d be surprised how happy and good fuel pumps work when a BAP is added and you set it to just make sure that the pump is getting 14-15 volts… the difference is really some thing. On my own MM when I first installed my Trilogy kit, I also went to an aftermarket larger double pass intercooler heat exchanger out in front behind the grill. It seemed that my MM and only mine with this larger heat exchanger never seem to pump the coolant fast enough through the reservoir where you could see how fast it was flowing. I actually installed a BAP on the intercooler pump motor and watched it really start to flow when I bumped up the BAP knob. Its still on there to this day working great.

    By turning the BAP knob up, it doesn’t always make the A/F richer, it just makes it easier for the computer to keep the fuel psi where it wants to see it. Once again typically around 40psi. The reason you don’t want to unnecessarily turns the BAP knob up to high is that when it kicks in under boost, you could potentially feel a surge or see and feel a spike when the BAP instantly raises the voltage to the pump and then the computer takes a second to stabilize and bring the fuel psi back to where it wants to see it. Unfortunately though you need to raise the BAP knob pretty high when you really start to raise boost because the computer has a harder time keeping the fuel psi where it wants as the tuner person starts to command more fuel at WOT through the base fuel table or MAF when it goes open loop.

    When you start to make more then about 440 RWHP with a MM, we then step up to the now famous Focus Fuel pump…. Which is a bolt in for most Ford’s, and because of its design it doesn’t cause any compatibly problems with the computer and works very good also when coupled to a BAP, and appears to be pretty good to about 500 RWHP with 42lbs injectors and over 550 with 60lbs injectors.
    When at or near 550 RWHP we then go to twin ‘03-‘04 Cobra pumps and then that’s about it up to about 625 RWHP. Around here, even though other say it will work staying return less, we then switch back to a return style system with much bigger external fuel pump or pumps.

    On a relatively stock Trilogy install on a MM and the BAP is set to where the manual states, the A/F at WOT is safe and shouldn’t be questioned. Especially if the A/F is being tested after the cats or with a tail pipe sensor. The tune intestinally keeps it at a slightly lean 13 to 1 at WOT till about 3500 to 4000 rpms. Then from there it ramps it down to about 11.5 -- 11.9 to 1. There is enough room to do the 3.2” pulley with out a computer tuning change as long as you trust your local premium fuels and it’s 92 or better. As I’ve said before you can do the 3.2” pulley change or a complete filter kit like the K&N one I like, but I don’t recommend doing them both together with out looking at the A/F ratio or basically having the tune properly checked and adjusted.
    If you have an 04 MM with a Trilogy, I do have a tune sorted out for those that supports the 3.2 pulley and the K&N filter kit. I 've done this with 03's too but not oficially offered it. I wanted to wait till I did a couple more to make sure every thing repeats.


    Thanks


    I may not be at the top (yet) but definitely on top of things.

    Lidio Iacobelli
    Alternativeauto.com

    (586)-949-7505

  10. #25
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    Thanks for chiming in on this topic Lidio. And what you've stated about where the A/F ratio is on the Marauders with the standard 9.5 PSI pullies, IS in fact exactly how it is with my Marauder according to the A/F ratio test I had done via a threaded bung that was welded BEFORE the driver's side cat. Just like you've stated, it goes to 13.0-13.1 at around 4,000 RPM's, and then as the RPM's climb higher, it ends up going to 11.8......

  11. #26
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    Thanks for the education, Lidio.

    My A/F does not reflect the pattern you mention.
    It is at the leanest point, higher in the rpm range.
    2004 Trilogy #93P 12.2@113 Built and stalled

  12. #27
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley@DynoPros
    Thanks for the education, Lidio.

    My A/F does not reflect the pattern you mention.
    It is at the leanest point, higher in the rpm range.
    My guess would be that you're going lean up top and should turn up the BAP just a little bit. If you're using the boost switch that comes with the kit as per the instructions, you can't turn it up too much because it causes a presure spike when the boost comes on which is hard for the PCM to compensate for. Lots of Mustang BAP users short out the boost switch inputs so it stays on all the time. Notice the BAP instructions even mention the option of doing this. That gives a higher voltage to the fuel pumps all the time and allows the PCM to control the fuel pressure as it normally would.
    Thanks to Darrin @ BC Automotive:
    $1800 and it was worse than when he started!

    Brian (FordNut) FPG # 1458 of 7838
    03 MM 300A (Lotsa mods, 130k mi) was 303rwhp/318rwtq N/A
    then 476/410 D1SC ProCharged on stock block
    then 660/555 D1SC PC on 5.3 wet sleeved Teksid alum big bore stroker
    then 365/369 N/A on 5.3 wet sleeved Teksid alum big bore stroker
    Now 751/617 3.4L Whipple on 5.3 Boss5.0 iron big bore stroker

    03 MM 300B Silver (Mostly stock, originally wife's car, 370k mi) FPG # 7053 of 7838 or 49 of 417 SB
    03 MM 300B Silver, Stock, wife's next one, 136k mi FPG # 7134 of 7838 or 89 of 417 SB
    04 MM Silver, Stock, on standby 85k mi, FPG # 1212 of 3214 or 432 of 997 SB
    01 F150 longbed
    01 F150 shortbed
    00 F150 4x4 stepside
    01 F150 4x4 7700
    68 Stang FB (70 351C 4V, 4 wheel discs, project car)

    Mods listed here (some items not current): FordNut's Mods

  13. #28
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    Quote Originally Posted by Bradley@DynoPros
    Thanks for the education, Lidio.

    My A/F does not reflect the pattern you mention.
    It is at the leanest point, higher in the rpm range.
    I still say that it's time for you to begin taking A/F readings from BEFORE that cats, before you go making changes. But to each his own.

  14. #29
    Quote Originally Posted by BillyGman
    I still say that it's time for you to begin taking A/F readings from BEFORE that cats, before you go making changes. But to each his own.
    Bad Billy , You already gave your advise once. Let him do what works for him.
    2003 300A Trilogy #80 SOLD, SOLD, SOLD.

  15. #30
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    Quote Originally Posted by Lidio
    On a relatively stock Trilogy install on a MM and the BAP is set to where the manual states, the A/F at WOT is safe and shouldn’t be questioned. Especially if the A/F is being tested after the cats or with a tail pipe sensor.
    I harped on my veiwpoint, because I think that someone might be overlooking what Lidio stated in the quote above^

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