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Thread: NOTHING is better than TURBO!

  1. #1
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    NOTHING is better than TURBO!

    Ooook. Any of you all watch the Horse Power TV a few weeks ago where they were talking about how turbo's are really cool and how superchargers "take power to make power" and can waste (and the guys language made it sound like most or all superchargers do this) 30% to make the extra 100 or so horses you get. Blah blah blah, turbos are so great, the new ones don't put backflow on your engine and look at this neat civic and the cool exhaust system we've got for it that makes it fart and blow black smoke on TV!

    Ok, now, if the new turbo systems can put less backflow on your engine then I'm sure the newer superchargers for variours cars depending on type don't take as much of 30% of your power to make power? Please educate me.

    Hey, has anyone on the board been around 13.5 in the quarter N/A and tried the 5.0 upgraded heads and shafts and stuff? That's what I would love to see and maybe try someday.
    2007 Honda Accord V6. Fit for a father of two. 5% tint all around.

  2. #2
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    All of your cars with the lowest R/T are SuperCharged for a reason.

    S/C is POWER that is always READY when YOU want it,
    not when it is good and ready to give it to you.
    Pete...


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    Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of rice,
    I will fear no turbo for displacement is with me.

  3. #3
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    Quote Originally Posted by MENINBLK
    All of your cars with the lowest R/T are SuperCharged for a reason.

    S/C is POWER that is always READY when YOU want it,
    not when it is good and ready to give it to you.
    Pete: First, I think you mean "E/T" not "R/T"

    Second, have you looked at what our Mustang brothers are doing with turbos and twin turbos on their cars? Talk abou scarey fast.....

  4. #4
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyo

    Second, have you looked at what our Mustang brothers are doing with turbos and twin turbos on their cars? Talk abou scarey fast.....


    One reason they are so good now with no lag is they are using nitrous with them, check this out---http://www.diy-nitrous.fsnet.co.uk/n...ith-turbos.htm
    63 1/2' Merc 406 (434ci) tri-powered "Ratsmoker"

  5. #5
    hitchhiker Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by woaface
    Ooook. Any of you all watch the Horse Power TV a few weeks ago where they were talking about how turbo's are really cool and how superchargers "take power to make power" and can waste (and the guys language made it sound like most or all superchargers do this) 30% to make the extra 100 or so horses you get. Blah blah blah, turbos are so great, the new ones don't put backflow on your engine and look at this neat civic and the cool exhaust system we've got for it that makes it fart and blow black smoke on TV!

    Ok, now, if the new turbo systems can put less backflow on your engine then I'm sure the newer superchargers for variours cars depending on type don't take as much of 30% of your power to make power? Please educate me.

    Hey, has anyone on the board been around 13.5 in the quarter N/A and tried the 5.0 upgraded heads and shafts and stuff? That's what I would love to see and maybe try someday.
    If you will read previous threads you will see that this had been eliminated as a viable option for our cars, for the most part, due to the awkward exhaust
    routing under the second cross member that would be required.

    Perhaps someone has or will find a way around this...?

    How 'bout it Todd, aren't you working on a four turbo monster?



    Best Regards

    David

  6. #6
    SixAppeal Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MENINBLK
    All of your cars with the lowest R/T are SuperCharged for a reason.

    S/C is POWER that is always READY when YOU want it,
    not when it is good and ready to give it to you.
    How boring would the car world be if everyone put a supercharger on their car? Turbo lag is just something you have to build the car to overcome.. kinda like how the marauder weighs 4500lbs.

    Somehow I still manage to pull a 1.65 60ft, no nitrous
    Last edited by SixAppeal; 07-06-2004 at 05:56 PM.

  7. #7
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    Quote Originally Posted by martyo
    Pete: First, I think you mean "E/T" not "R/T"
    No...
    I meant REACTION TIME.

    From the time you put your foot on the accelerator and the car begins to launch is the Reaction Time.
    With a Turbo, you bury the gas pedal and WAIT...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    With a SuperCharger, there is NO waiting !

    Even with TWIN Turbos, there still is a lag unless you've got the Turbos spinning and the engine loaded !

    The Turbos also don't sit bolted directly to the Intake Manifold.
    The only vehicle I've seen with the Turbo sitting right on the Intake Manifold was the Buick Regal Grand National.
    The only thing separating the two was the Throttle Body.

    Turbos usually sit so far away from the top of the engine that it takes time for the turbo
    to pressurize all of the plumbing involved and to deliver a steady and constant flow volume of air to the engine.

    Turbos also tend to BOUNCE between the exhaust pressure and the intake boost pressure,
    making them a very nasty system to monitor and control.

    SuperCharging is controlled by what we all know...Engine RPM.
    The ratio of Blower RPM to Engine RPM is controlled by pulleys that we can set.
    SuperChargers deliver a level volume and pressure of air that can be easier to control and adjust than a Turbo.

    The amount of energy produced from a SuperCharger can overcome the amout of energy it takes the engine to crank it.

    Quote Originally Posted by martyo
    Second, have you looked at what our Mustang brothers are doing with turbos and twin turbos on their cars? Talk about scarey fast.....
    There is a difference between being fast and quick.
    A turbo can make you scary fast, yes...
    But SuperCharger can make you wicked quick !!

    The only real benefit I can see of having a turbo is at higher RPMs.
    A good Turbo can keep up with the demands of the intake and exhaust at higher RPMs,
    whereas a SuperCharger tends to run out of breath.

    On a 1/4 mile run, the SuperCharger pulls from the tree to the finish line.
    The Turbo doesn't start to really work its magic until you're in 2nd gear,
    and at that point it will pull harder down the line to the finish.

    In December 1987, a friend and I bought two Mitsubishis.
    I bought a 5 speed Mirage and my friend bought a 5 speed fully loaded TurboCharged Starion.
    Whenever we got up against eachother, from a dead stop, I had him through 1st gear,
    and it took him half of his 2nd gear to catch me.
    I had a 1.5L 3-valve NA 81HP/91TQ 4cyl.
    The Starion had a 2.6L 188HP/234TQ Turbo 4cyl.
    (More then 2X my HP and 2.5X TQ)

    He took his Starion to the dealership TWICE complaining of the poor pickup it had.
    The third time he went back, they told him to learn to drive a turbo.
    I went with him on a roadtest.
    The Service Manager coudn't beat me any better than my friend could,
    and we ate lunch on him that day.
    It was the funniest experience we had with a Turbo, and we learned a lot about how a Turbo worked.
    It wasn't until his turbo was replaced, his heads milled, and the cats gutted, before he could take me in 1st gear.

    So I am a SuperCharger believer, and a Turbo denyer.
    I've had a lot of experience with a lot of different vehicles.
    I've also serviced quite a few vehicles in my llifetime.
    If you plan out what you're trying to accomplish and add the correct physics, and chemistry,
    there are environments where each technology shines its brightest.

    I believe that TurboCharging is NOT for accelerating off the line.
    Its a lot of heat and plumbing for the gains, and the gains don't come into play
    until you can produce the volume of air needed to create the gains.
    Last edited by MENINBLK; 07-06-2004 at 06:47 PM.
    Pete...


    2k04 BLACK Mercury Marauder 300A #810 of 3223
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    DG Motorsports Carbon Fiber Radiator Cover, Zack's Badgeless Grille,
    Accel 140034-8 Coil Packs, Granatelli Motorsports Coil-On-Plug wires
    Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of rice,
    I will fear no turbo for displacement is with me.

  8. #8
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    Both turbochargers and superchargers have come a long way in the last 10 years alone. Both have good applications, much like the talked-to-death Roots vs. centrifugal vs. modified Roots vs. Mr. Fusion vs. flux capacitor debate. Turbos, in a properly designed system, can and do produce amazing power with much less lag than before (the Porsche 935 K3 is an example of a powerful yet poorly-designed system - 880 bhp out of a 2.8L air cooled 6-cylinder with 3 days of boost lag). Turbos are much like a centrifugal supercharger in their design, and similarly are in their element when used when maximum power is the key. A supercharger, even a centrifugal if it's properly designed like Dennis' kit seems to be, produces more immediate boost and better drivabilty than a similar turbo setup, but at the cost of some parasitic loss through the drive. Better designed turbo systems with less boost lag, and better designed supercharger systems (Roots with better top end power, centrifugal with less parasitic loss, etc.) have narrowed the gap, but each still is a good system in the right application. I would think that rather than go to the trouble of redesigning the whell, if you want maximum boost with less lag, have Dennis design a kit with that in mind. You'll probably need to start with a Signature Series Cobra motor, or have the MM motor gone completely through, before adding any more power than Dennis is already getting. With a setup like that, you might lose a little drivability compared to the Trilogy or Reinhart off-the-shelf systems, but it would still be more drivable than the turbo setup.

    I would like to point out, in the spirit of James' original reason for this post, that I laugh a lot outside (& die a little inside) everytime these Honda guys try to convince the rest of the world that they know more than we do because their cars are more high tech, they're on the cutting-edge of technology, etc. What these guys don't realize is that they are doing all the same stuff we've been doing since the days of the flathead V-8 (the most aesthetically pleasing engine ever built, to my eye), just with 200 pounds of ugly bodywork, paint, & stickers to go with their impropery designed exhaust, whose tip is almost as big as our wheels. Rather than learn from all our collective mistakes, these little hard-headed *******s try to reinvent the wheel, the exhaust, and every other part of the car. I've seen a very few imports designed properly, and they are very fast, but these 'Fast & Furious' (in bed, maybe - they're too fast and their date is too furious) guys just crack me up.

    My rant is over now. My head hurts. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, it's truly not what I'm after, I just had to get this import thing off my chest as politely and eloquently as possible. Please send all hate mail to notimeforchildishgames@yourcar sucks.com

    BTW SixAppeal - great screen name, sweet car, and wish you were in Houston so I could try for the MM.net discount on some PPL lessons.
    Last edited by MICA Racing; 07-06-2004 at 06:34 PM.
    Michael Floyd
    2004 300B

  9. #9
    SixAppeal Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MENINBLK
    No...

    I meant REACTION TIME.

    From the time you put your foot on the accelerator and the car begins to launch is the Reaction Time.
    With a Turbo, you bury the gas pedal and WAIT...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

    With a SuperCharger, there is NO waiting !
    OK everyone knows turbos have lag..

    As far as reaction time, that's the driver's problem.

    Quote Originally Posted by MENINBLK

    I believe that TurboCharging is NOT for accelerating off the line..
    I believe in my 60ft times.
    Last edited by SixAppeal; 07-06-2004 at 06:54 PM.

  10. #10
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixAppeal
    OK everyone knows turbos have lag..

    As far as reaction time, that's the driver's problem.
    Turbos also have a small part of it.

    You don't have much of it with the Regal,
    because Buick designed the Turbo to sit right next to the intake,
    with the smallest amount of airspace to pressurize,
    so your lag is negligible compared to some vehicles with
    yards of plumbing that needs to be pressurized
    before the boost reaches the intake valve.

    Its not about how fast the pressure can be created,
    its how much VOLUME has to be pressurized
    before it even means something at the intake valve !!!
    Pete...


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    Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of rice,
    I will fear no turbo for displacement is with me.

  11. #11
    SixAppeal Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by MENINBLK
    Turbos also have a small part of it.

    You don't have much of it with the Regal,
    because Buick designed the Turbo to sit right next to the intake,
    with the smallest amount of airspace to pressurize,
    so your lag is negligible compared to some vehicles with
    yards of plumbing that needs to be pressurized
    before the boost reaches the intake valve.

    Its not about how fast the pressure can be created,
    its how much VOLUME has to be pressurized
    before it even means something at the intake valve !!!
    I think you may be referring to the 84/85 non-intercooled Turbo Buicks?

  12. #12
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    Quote Originally Posted by SixAppeal
    I think you may be referring to the 84/85 non-intercooled Turbo Buicks?
    The 87s also had minimal plumbing between the Turbo and the Intake.
    The only addition was the intercooler, and the turbo was moved slightly to make room for the elbow in the plumbing.
    Otherwise it was a clean and very well done job.

    I've seen people plumb a turbo to an intake from across the engine bay.
    Then they wonder why they have a real bad lag...
    Pete...


    2k04 BLACK Mercury Marauder 300A #810 of 3223
    DOB 10/31/2003
    DOP 1/2/2004
    2k19 AGATE FORD Edge ST with Performance Brakes
    DOB 12/11/2018
    DOP 6/19/2019

    Water Wetter, K&N AirCharger/Drycharger, SS Inserts,
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    AutoMeter Gauges (Oil Press, Voltmeter, and Trans Oil Temp),
    ASC 840 VSS Sunroof, Kenwood KFC-C6879ie x4, COBRA Fender Badges,
    Z&M Rear Control Arms, FORD GT Coil Covers,
    Gorilla Lock Lugs all around, Decklid Designs Trunk Lid Liner,
    SCT Xcalibrator2 (Innovative Interceptors) w/Lidio's (Alternative Automotive) Marauder 3.55 tuning,
    4R75W by Fred Brown's Performance Transmission, tuned to match Lidio's tune,
    DG Motorsports Carbon Fiber Radiator Cover, Zack's Badgeless Grille,
    Accel 140034-8 Coil Packs, Granatelli Motorsports Coil-On-Plug wires
    Even though I walk through the valley of the shadow of rice,
    I will fear no turbo for displacement is with me.

  13. #13
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    While I believe that turbos can & do produce great HP and in a well designed system can hold their own against comparable s/c applications, my only complaint against them is the way they cook the lube oil going through them! I worked on t/c natural gas fired engine/generator sets for over 3 years - and the only problem I had was oil degradation due to high temps! Even then, the main problem was more frequent oil changes.
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  14. #14
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    Lol, and I thought when I first posted it that no one would find it in the Garage.

    I think I can be turned on by the idea of a turbo, and I heard one of the new Neons the other day in a parking lot and the rev up/blow off thing was waaaay cool.

    But I really agree here with what was said about all these kids think they're on the top of technology and they're not...and they're dumb, and I tell you what. Whether my car is faster or slower than theirs...guess who get's the ladies And I'm the ONLY guy who ever hears "Wow, look at that back seat!" And all the guys go "HOLY **** Look at that TRUNK! How many subs can you fit in there!?"

    Which, for the more moral of you, I've never used.

    Ok I need to read the thread a few more times, there's a lot to learn here!
    2007 Honda Accord V6. Fit for a father of two. 5% tint all around.

  15. #15
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    Quote Originally Posted by woaface
    But I really agree here with what was said about all these kids think they're on the top of technology and they're not...and they're dumb, and I tell you what. Whether my car is faster or slower than theirs...guess who get's the ladies And I'm the ONLY guy who ever hears "Wow, look at that back seat!" And all the guys go "HOLY **** Look at that TRUNK! How many subs can you fit in there!?"

    Which, for the more moral of you, I've never used.

    Ok I need to read the thread a few more times, there's a lot to learn here!
    Thanks and well put about getting the ladies - and BTW, which have you never used, the backseat or the trunk??
    Michael Floyd
    2004 300B

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