Page 1 of 10 12345678 ... LastLast
Results 1 to 15 of 146

Thread: Which Supercharger?

  1. #1
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Age
    62
    Posts
    6,837

    Which Supercharger?

    For the sake of those who are unknowledgeable about high performance engines and about S/Cing in general, who might also be considering the possibility of S/Cing their cars, if I were you, I wouldn't merely pay attention to any vendor's claims, nor to any vendor's customer's claims w/out regard to sources that are neutral on this topic. And that's why I decided to purchase and read three books on the subject of Supercharging STREET cars before I made my choice. The best book that I can recommend to people on this topic is titled "Supercharged!" written by Corky Bell.


    And for another UNBIASED viewpoint on supercharging your STREET vehicle allow me to also suggest the article in a car magazine such as the one that's been posted in a "sticky" thread by one of the moderators of this board. And infact here is the conclusion that the magazine article draws, and this is a direct quote about how the choice of S/Cers was summed-up by that article. Look at what it says concerning different S/Cers in different vehicles:

    "Today there is a huge number of blower kits available to Mustang and Lightning owners. The choices can be overwhelming, but we've found that picking the right blower requires nothing more than a little research on your part. The key to finding the best one for your combination is to select a unit that can supply the most efficient level of boost in the rpm range that you're building your engine for. In addition, consider the combination as a whole. For instance, heavier vehicles need more torque than lighter ones do and that's why the Eaton, Magnum Powers or Kenne Bell is the best choice for a 4,500-pound Lightning. But a Paxton, Powerdyne, Procharger, or Vortech may be the way to go for your 3,000-pound LX".

    Let me remind you that the above words are NOT my words, they're the words of "MUSCLE MUSTANGS & FAST FORDS" magazine.
    Last edited by BillyGman; 11-09-2004 at 09:36 PM.

  2. #2
    MikesMerc Guest
    Quote Originally Posted by BillyGman
    "Today there is a huge number of blower kits available to Mustang and Lightning owners. The choices can be overwhelming, but we've found that picking the right blower requires nothing more than a little research on your part. The key to finding the best one for your combination is to select a unit that can supply the most efficient level of boost in the rpm range that you're building your engine for. In addition, consider the combination as a whole. For instance, heavier vehicles need more torque than lighter ones do and that's why the Eaton, Magnum Powers or Kenne Bell is the best choice for a 4,500-pound Lightning. But a Paxton, Powerdyne, Procharger, or Vortech may be the way to go for your 3,000-pound LX".
    [/b]
    That's good, unbiased info BillyG.

    Like I recently said in another thread, I just don't understand how some folks want to "cover up" the basic truths about blower selection. It's either to make themselves feel better about their own misguided purchase, or so as not to step on vendor's toes. Either way, it is quite laughable the way some folks are in denial about the best blower fit for the application. Of course there are other considerations which may make someone opt for a centrifugal blower for thier MM, but as long as they know they are sacrficing the best "natural" fit for other reasons...so be it.

    *sigh* picking a positive displacment blower for a heavy car lacking cubic inches is just sooooo basic, this arguement frustrates me to no end. I cringe everytime I see a newbie mislead by a statement that says all blowers make a good choice and that one is not better than the other. Nothing could be further from the truth!

  3. #3
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    59
    Posts
    2,657
    The same article talks about the importance of the full torque curve and how you just can't compare peak numbers, the roots and twin screw types displayed the best of that as well. The turbo's and Vortec's were the highest at the peak. How and where do you want your power to be, I like mine linear farther up the RPM range.
    Steven

    2004 Marauder Black, loaded
    Vortec S/C
    4.10s
    3500 PI Stall
    Kook's headers
    476.9 rwhp 385 lbs/tq
    KVR's, QA1's, M&Z control arms, rear sway bar
    Lidio tune
    2004 Suburban Dark Charcoal
    1970 W-30 442 convertible twilight Blue

  4. #4
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Age
    62
    Posts
    6,837
    Mike, I fully agree w/you, but I want to keep this thread to itself. if others want to make certain claims in other threads, then I guess that it's their perogative to do so. That doesn't neccessarily make their claims accurate, but that's their biz, so i want to try to leave other threads out of this. My motive for starting this thread is to help inform and guide newcomers as well as veterans who haven't yet S/ced their Marauders, and are seriously thinking of doing so just as you and I, and others have. I have no stakes whatsoever in this thread nor which S/Cer choice other board members make just as I know that you don't either. Thanks for your input thus far my friend.

  5. #5
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Age
    62
    Posts
    6,837
    Quote Originally Posted by stevengerard
    The same article talks about the importance of the full torque curve and how you just can't compare peak numbers, the roots and twin screw types displayed the best of that as well. The turbo's and Vortec's were the highest at the peak. How and where do you want your power to be, I like mine linear farther up the RPM range.
    Well then your argument (if you have one) is also with the magazine and not just w/me. So you're saying that the magazine article is wrong about it being more effecient to use a roots blower in a heavy car (which BTW a Marauder is)?? Statements like yours sound like the implication is that roots type blowers will not increase your engine's HP in the high RPM range, and that just isn't true. For example, even w/the 4.56 gears I have in the rear end of my Marauder, I've noticed a very significant increase of acceleration past 100 MPH w/the roots S/Cer that the Trilogy kit has.
    Last edited by BillyGman; 11-09-2004 at 10:56 PM.

  6. #6
    Join Date
    Mar 2004
    Location
    Chicago
    Age
    59
    Posts
    2,657
    Quote Originally Posted by BillyGman
    Well then your argument (if you have one) is also with the magazine and not just w/me. So you're saying that the magazine article is wrong about it being more effecient to use a roots blower in a heavy car (which BTW a Marauder is)?? Statements like yours sound like the implication is that roots type blowers will not increase your engine's HP in the high range, and that just isn't true. For example, even w/the 4.56 gears I have in the rear end of my Marauder, I've noticed a very significant increase of acceleration past 100 MPH w/the roots S/Cer that the Trilogy kit has.
    I have no argument, read my response, I'm agreeing with you both and the magazine, I'm just saying I like knowing that I have even better response on the top end. Yes the roots will increase acceleration at the high end but based on the same principles of the roots giving more torque at the low end why would you say the Vortec won't deliver even more on the high end. And for the same reason you say you notice an increase at the upper end "even with 4.56" gears I will notice a "significant increase of acceleration" from 0 - 60 even with 3.55 gears and a Vortec. No kidding! Your roots will increase top end some just like a Vortec will increase bottom end some. I tried Trilogy number 1, I liked Mac's car better and Zack's even more - sorry just my opinion. I, like you, would rather be driving a Ford GT anyway, but its not in the cards right now. Though I did find a place that will lease it for 1,895 a month.
    Steven

    2004 Marauder Black, loaded
    Vortec S/C
    4.10s
    3500 PI Stall
    Kook's headers
    476.9 rwhp 385 lbs/tq
    KVR's, QA1's, M&Z control arms, rear sway bar
    Lidio tune
    2004 Suburban Dark Charcoal
    1970 W-30 442 convertible twilight Blue

  7. #7
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Age
    62
    Posts
    6,837
    Quote Originally Posted by stevengerard
    . I, like you, would rather be driving a Ford GT anyway, but its not in the cards right now. Though I did find a place that will lease it for 1,895 a month.
    OOOOOOOHHHHHHH....no U went and did it!!!!!! That's not fair!!! U hit my weak spot!!! THE FORD GT!!!!!!! FOUL!!!........FOUL!!!!!

  8. #8
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Age
    62
    Posts
    6,837
    Okay, now that I've regained my composure after that adrenaline rush brought on by the mention of the name of that car! (uhmm, trying to maintain control here)... let me say that yes I agree that the centrifugal will provide a greater percentage of it's power increase in the upper RPM range (ie 5,000 RPM's and beyond) kind of like how a rice burner Jap car does.


    As for a comparisant of the Eaton S/Cer equipped to the Vortech S/Cer equipped Marauders you've been in, are you aware of exactly how many PSI of boost pressure each of the three cars were running at the time? And what about the stall speeds of each one as well as the rear end gear ratios? Let's just make sure you're comparing apples to apples here. If you're not sure as to the answers to those questions, then your example cannot be considered a clear comparisant. For instance, I don't believe that the Trilogy car ever had a higher than stock stall speed. That's just for starters. What about the chips in each car? Were any of them dual position chips? And if so, were any one of them running 100 octane race gas during these rides that you had in them? If any of them were, and the others were NOT, then that wouldn't be a valid comparisant either since almost all Marauders are intended by their owners to be used ostly for the street, and nobodt that I know of is going to be spending $5+ per gallon for race gas to use on the street on a daily basis. And everyone knows that the advantage of a dual position chip is to run a more agressive timing advance curve at the track while using 100 octane race gas which will ofcourse make the car in question run faster.
    Last edited by BillyGman; 11-09-2004 at 11:16 PM.

  9. #9
    Join Date
    May 2004
    Location
    Bradenton, Florida
    Age
    65
    Posts
    1,293
    It's all apples, Marauders!

  10. #10
    Join Date
    Jun 2003
    Location
    Connecticut
    Age
    62
    Posts
    6,837
    Quote Originally Posted by David Morton
    It's all apples, Marauders!
    Not if one car is running 13 PSI of boost, and another is running 9.5 PSI. And not if one car is tuned for 100 octane race gas, while one isn't. How would that be a realistic comparisant of results obtained w/two different type superchargers? I don't think so. If one of the Vortech S/Cer equipped Marauders were running a lot more boost pressure than the Trilogy car was, then an accurate comparisant would be more like a ride in Dave's(aka "MI2QWIK4U") Trilogy S/Cer equipped Marauder since it also has well over 12 PSI of boost pressure, and therefore is also faster than the Trilogy #1 car is.

    Just as my Marauder is faster than an otherwise stock Marauder that's equipped w/the Trilogy kit simply because of the rear end gears that I have as well as the higher stall speed, and to a lesser extent the Kooks headers too. my point is that if you're going to get a ride in different Marauders to make a comparisant of two different S/cers, then you better be certain that each Marauder in question has been similarly otherwise modified. otherwise your comparisant would be useless since it wouldn't be very telling nor conclusive.
    Last edited by BillyGman; 11-09-2004 at 11:33 PM.

  11. #11
    bigslim Guest
    I addressed this topic in the "other" thread. However, I have noticed that with the centrifucal units it seems that a new torque convertor and some other pieces are needed to really make it affective. It seems that the roots-type blowers really don't need anything to effective. I myself like the clean installation look of the Eaton unit over the all the plumbing needed for the centrifucal units. As I have said in the other thread this is the reason I will be going with the Trilogy. I want a clean look. I don't need to be the fastest MM here. I just want something fast and looks good and still drives like the car I originally bought. People, buy what you want. We will see them all run at MVIII.

  12. #12
    Join Date
    Feb 2003
    Location
    Earth
    Posts
    8,598
    Blog Entries
    2
    The problem for me is the Roots develops 40% more heat than the centrifugal, being in the Deep South heck it was 87* & 85% last week, the centrifugal is the way to go since it only raise Air Intake Temp by 10*..

    You are right the Corky Bell book is excellent, so is the Sean Hyland book.

    There is a reason some Cobra owners are going to Centrifugal. The Roots model is undersized for the DOHC application.
    Last edited by sailsmen; 11-10-2004 at 03:47 AM.
    1/4 Mile Time 11.542 @ 121.19 MPH
    195,000 Miles & 275+ Runs Down the 1,320’
    541.57 RWHP & 476.64 RWTQ on DynoJet
    Tuned by Aric at Injected Engineering
    Vortech Super Charger V-2 “T” Trim, 19 PSI
    8 Rib Belt, Innovators West 10% Overdrive Dampner
    Air to Air Intercooler, Mini-race Bypass
    Ford Cobra Remanufactured Long Block
    Snow Performance Water-Methanol Injection
    Kooks Headers & X Pipe
    GT MAF, 60lb injectors, Dash 8, Aero Rails, Twin Ford GT Pumps,
    Kinsler Fuel Filter, Kenne Bell Boost-A-Pump
    Monroe Sensatrac, Metco Control Arms, Addco Rear Sway Bar
    31 Ford Spline Axles & Detroit Truetrac, 4:10 Ford Racing Gears
    Dynotech MMC Driveshaft
    A-1 Performance Trans, Forced Tailshaft Lube, Carbon Clutches
    3,500 RPM Stall Precision Industries Torque Converter
    B&M Deep Finned Trans Pan
    AeroForce Scan Gauges , Auto Meter Oil, Fuel & Boost Gauges
    Kenny Brown Dead Pedal, 35% Tint, Silver Star Head Lights
    AutoPage Alarm RS-727LCD, Boston Acoustic NX87

  13. #13
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Houston
    Age
    51
    Posts
    473
    Of course you're leaving out turbo's. Those can be setup for either low-end torque or high-end torque (hp). My Volvo has 2 small tubos, which give instantaneous torque under all driving situations, but it isn't setup for high upper rpm boost. My roots supercharged Grand Marquis has more raw power under all situations that the Volvo, but it does have an extra 1.7 liters displacement and traction. Volvo gets 20mpg GM gets 15.6mpg in town.

    When you choose modifications, they should fit into your total goals. What do you want out of the car? Do you want power that keeps climbing as the rpms rise? Or do you want a smaller engine to act like a larger displacement big block and have excellent acceleration without downshifting? How far are you willing to push the power up before it's enough? If you’re the type that wants more and more, don’t use a small blower. Of course the farther you push things, the less street able it’ll be. In order for more efficiency at high output, you have to give up efficiency on the light throttle side.

    An Eaton roots supercharger makes a good daily driver. They work best in the mild to medium boost levels. Once boost is pushed up, they use a lot of crank power and make tremendous heat. Eatons have the best reputation for durability of all other superchargers on the market, with a life expectancy of 100,000mi before remanufacturing.

    A twin-screw supercharger is not as efficient as roots under low boost, however the tables turn quickly as boost rises. These make much less heat and use less crank power when spun up.

    A centrifugal supercharger progressively flows air. They typically make more noise, especially at idle. These use even less crank power and make less heat than a twin screw under similar situations. However, they have to be spun up to make strong boost. These really should be thought of similarly to a turbo, in sizing. The ones which have 'lag' give an amazing kick in the rear in higher rpms and the ones w/o lag don't have as much to give in the upper rpms.


    And as I just hinted to, sizing of forced induction is important. You can't just blindly talk about the differences, without specifying flow demands. For instance, a both a roots and a centrifugal can be sized & geared to deliver peak flow at 4,000 engine rpms. They would both run out of steam at higher rpms, but the roots would give less usable power above 4k. At tip-in the roots would have a little bit more power.


    Torque converter stall and rear end ratio play a part. If you want to keep your launches lower in rpm, you need more lower end power. If you want the best possible launch at the track you'll want a high stall and you wont' be using the lower rpm torque.


    Traction is yet another issue. If you have more power than your tires can put to the ground, you'll make more smoke than go. On the street, traction choices are more limited than what you can get on the track with purpose built tires. If you setup your output where you have to go light on the throttle to get started, you're simply wasting power.

    And don't forget about selecting and setting up your engine to for the type of power you want. Of course, most of you only consider sticking with the bone stock block and heads Ford gave you. This does seriously limit your choices.


    And above all of these choices you can make it does come down to personal preferences. Different supercharges can accomplish the same goal.
    2003 Silver Marauder - Forged Iron Engine, Supercharged, SW Exhaust
    2002 White F250 7.3 - Turbo

  14. #14
    Join Date
    Nov 2002
    Location
    Houston
    Age
    51
    Posts
    473
    By the way, I'm maxing my 90cu blower and my engine is capable of much more. I've made choices along the build of my car. Track numbers could certainly be improved upon, but that's not my focus. My car has 325 lb-ft to the wheels between 1,500 and 5,500rpm, even more in 1st gear. The car responds well to any request to move. Downsifting is not required, but if you do more power is there. It's a great daily driver, even with the boat in tow. For now it is what I want it to be. We'll see what my hobby desires take me to next.

    John
    Last edited by JohnE; 11-10-2004 at 05:40 AM.
    2003 Silver Marauder - Forged Iron Engine, Supercharged, SW Exhaust
    2002 White F250 7.3 - Turbo

  15. #15
    Join Date
    Sep 2002
    Location
    Florida
    Posts
    4,207
    My personal preference for my car is Roots because I like the way it neatly sits in the center, this business about which one is better is silly; they both make the car faster.

    I don't care for the looks of the plumbing on the Vortec and I also don't like a backwards running alternator or broken belts, so in conclusion, if you are very serious about your car, than do your homework....if you just want to go faster ...any flavor will do.
    Smokie
    12.79 @ 107 mph.
    60' 1.851 Street tires & Stock wheels.
    TIMESLIPS
    Performance Mods: Base Trilogy Kit, Exhaust, PHP Airbox.
    Visit my Garage
    Florida "The Supercharged State"


Page 1 of 10 12345678 ... LastLast

Thread Information

Users Browsing this Thread

There are currently 1 users browsing this thread. (0 members and 1 guests)

Similar Threads

  1. Which Supercharger??!!
    By TechHeavy in forum Community Discussion
    Replies: 40
    Last Post: 10-22-2004, 10:32 AM
  2. Sean Hyland Supercharger
    By SILVERMARAUDER in forum Shop Talk
    Replies: 24
    Last Post: 09-14-2004, 07:54 AM
  3. root for me please - supercharger is close
    By darebren in forum The Lounge
    Replies: 16
    Last Post: 06-16-2004, 08:53 PM
  4. My new Supercharger experience:
    By BillyGman in forum Community Discussion
    Replies: 49
    Last Post: 04-20-2004, 01:37 AM
  5. Supercharger sale
    By Dennis Reinhart in forum Reinhart Automotive
    Replies: 6
    Last Post: 01-21-2004, 07:50 PM

Posting Permissions

  • You may not post new threads
  • You may not post replies
  • You may not post attachments
  • You may not edit your posts
  •