Getting good heads

[Lowndex]

Below is an article from KC at BRG Racing about my new heads. Greek to me, but I thought some would find the information interesting.

*********************

The heads chosen for this project were selected to yield high airflow. In addition, camshafts port configuration valve size were key to max hp and air flow. From the outset, 1 mm over valves were designed requiring CNC'd intake porting. As Livernois Motorsports provides some of the best CNC porting work in the industry, they were selected. It cannot be stressed enough, putting 1mm over valves in a modular head is no easy task.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/DNxLG2.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmDNxLG2j)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/rzlJDj.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmrzlJDjj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/924/od9qVN.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pood9qVNj)


When you put 1 mm valve in a Ford head, the whole point is to expand your valve current. The valve seat in the head must extend all the way out to the edge of the intake valve itself. The problem is the valve seat does not have the die to support use of the new large die seat, which will match the die of the intake valve. Now you sit back and say "yea, just put bigger seats in" - very easy to say but the job is extremely time consuming and labor intensive.

The process of putting 1mm over valve seat in these heads requires sonic clean and bead blast heads along with mounting the cylinder heads onto a Rotller Valve Cutting machine (http://www.rottlermfg.com/seat_and_guide.php?model=SG10A ). You must cut all the stock valve seats out of the head. The seats are powdered metal and the seat cannot be pulled out - they have to be cut so thin such that the valve seat falls out. As you can imagine this take time to complete one, let alone 32.

Once all 32 valve seats are out, it's time to cut the old valve seats pockets to match the dimension of the 1 mm over valve seat. Time, skill and much patience are required for each valve pocket. Each hole must be cut to hold one half of one thousands tolerance! Get just one wrong, and,.............., too ugly to talk about.

Next the cylinder head is heated to 400°, which expands the cylinder hole, while all the valve seats are immersed in a bath of liquid nitrogen. When the head and the seats have acclimated to their respective temperatures, you very quickly take the valve seat mounted on your custom valve seat holder and delicately insert into the valve pocket opening. This must be done quickly or the valve seat expands rapidly to ambient air. Too much expansion makes it impossible to get seat the head. Oh yes, and the interference tolerance is 0.004 mm[/I] makes it fun; not.

With all the valve seats installed, you are ready for the final step. One of the known problems with Ford heads is the spark plug hole has only four threads. After putting the 1 mm over-seat, the distance between the spark plug hole and the intake valve seat is too thin. Under a magnifying glass, you notice what looks like the start of some small cracks.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/923/fbFX6y.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnfbFX6yj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/924/YmsgCQ.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/poYmsgCQj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/924/pH4vDz.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/popH4vDzj)

We need spark plug inserts. Why? With compression of 10.5 to 1, 4 threads per spark plug hole and possible cracks stating around the spark plug holes, spark plug inserts are required. Otherwise, spark plugs do not stay in their holes = bad.

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/923/wuP1l6.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pnwuP1l6j)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/921/CXdLd3.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plCXdLd3j)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/924/4p76Cm.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/po4p76Cmj)

[MOTOWN]

Too bad your in California , if not you could actually realize the full potential of your build!

[Lowndex]

Let's see what the rwhp turns out to be.

[Lowndex]

Hey CA members, want some? :)

[Sactown]

Let's see what the rwhp turns out to be.

What are you shooting for?

[Lowndex]

What are you shooting for?

400 + rwhp

[martyo]

Do your plans still include boost?

[FordNut]

400 + rwhp

Not without boost.

[Bradley G]

Great thread!
Nice to see guys digging into the kitty to keep us entertained .
Subscribing

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

[Bradley G]

Not without boost.
I'm trying to remember how close you got N/A ?
Three twenties?
Can you please refresh us?

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[martyo]

I'm trying to remember how close you got N/A ?
Three twenties?
Can you please refresh us?

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

Gordon R. got to the mid 300's with pretty much a stock motor and just degreed cams and our tune, although I am not sure how CA would view that combo. :confused:

[Zack]

You can install the valve seat with a special tool and green loctite. That method described sounds insanely expensive.
Sounds like you have a 5k set of heads.

[Lowndex]

Not without boost.

Care to make a wager?

[Lowndex]

You can install the valve seat with a special tool and green loctite. That method described sounds insanely expensive.
Sounds like you have a 5k set of heads.

A get what you pay for world. I set a target rwhp for BRG Racing to meet. And trying does not count. I do my part ($) and they do theirs.

[Bradley G]

Care to make a wager?
OK, that just begs for more lather!
Lol

Sent from my XT1096 using Tapatalk

[lji372]

A get what you pay for world. I set a target rwhp for BRG Racing to meet. And trying does not count. I do my part ($) and they do theirs.

400 at the wheels n/a; no nos, meth, or race fuel? i'm in for a hundy

[Lowndex]

Do your plans still include boost?

Can one ever have enough power? :D

[lifespeed]

Nice cylinder head work! Definitely labor-intensive and costly, but looks like it will stand the test of time and track.

[Lowndex]

400 at the wheels n/a; no nos, meth, or race fuel? i'm in for a hundy

Accepted.

Conditions of the bet are as follows:
1. California 91 octane fuel ONLY - nothing else may be added to the fuel = no Nos, Meth, magic additive to fuel
2. Two dyno runs:
a. one by BRG racing - if 400 or rwhp is reached, many will doubt the accuracy of the data. So, a second dyno run will be performed.
b. ZcarGarage (http://www.zcargarage.com/dyno.htm) - all Bay Area members will be invited to attend as witnesses
3. CA Emissions testing is n/a - it is my business how I achieve passing CA Smog. Whether I do or not is not part of the wager conditions.
4. No limitations on engine, exhaust, air intake, transmission, suspension exist - there will be no whining about, "well, you did not tell me you did X, y or z. Speak now to any limitations you feel are unfair or forever hold your peace.
5. If a Bay Area member feels I have cheated in some way, but it cannot be proved, the bet is off (nobody pays anyone). That's right, if a witness feels the impossible has been achieved and something smells funny, the wager is null-and-void. Proof is not required; just instinct feeling honesty has not prevailed.
6. KC will not attend the second dyno run

I willing to take on 4 more members at $100 each. It is quite possible I will lose. I am willing to take the chance because of my faith in KC and IN NO WAY do I mean any disrespect to the vast Panther and engine knowledge of our members. No amount of money is worth alienating myself from our community. Thus Condition 5 above.

If I have missed some wager condition you feel should exist, please share. For example:
- how does one prove I have Chevron 91 octane fuel in the tank? I could try to be close to an empty fuel tank and have a member go with me to gas up before the dyno run at ZcarGarage. And no, I have never been to ZcarGarage. I find them on Google while writing this thread.
- Is DynoJet the right kind of dyno to accurately measure rwhp. Over the years, I have heard a skilled dyno technician can manipulate a dyno machine to yield false/higher numbers. I want as pure and honest a dyno run as possible. So, a Bay Area resident member may know of a better place to conduct the second dyno run.

Respectfully Intended,
Lowndex

[Sactown]

please let me know when the dyno happens, no way to know for sure if I can be there coming from Sac but sounds like fun. :cool:

[Lowndex]

please let me know when the dyno happens, no way to know for sure if I can be there coming from Sac but sounds like fun. :cool:

Once the Bay Area members guide use of ZcarGarage or somewhere else (Sacramento is good too), I will schedule the date well in advance and publish the invite on this thread.

It is my intent to bring as many of us together and enjoy a Marauder dyno day together. If I lose the bet, no worries. I will learn from the experience and collect input for next steps or just enjoy the journey (advice a member gave me many months ago). I want the bet and day to be fun and invigorate discussion among us.

[WPG_Merc]

Can you post videos too please. :popcorn::popcorn:

[MOTOWN]

This is getting good! I'll get in on the hundo bet!

[junior]

I'm going to assume that there is going to be some practice runs before you get to the wager dyno. What can go wrong? :beer:

[martyo]

Accepted.

Conditions of the bet are as follows:
1. California 91 octane fuel ONLY - nothing else may be added to the fuel = no Nos, Meth, magic additive to fuel
2. Two dyno runs:
a. one by BRG racing - if 400 or rwhp is reached, many will doubt the accuracy of the data. So, a second dyno run will be performed.
b. ZcarGarage (http://www.zcargarage.com/dyno.htm) - all Bay Area members will be invited to attend as witnesses
3. CA Emissions testing is n/a - it is my business how I achieve passing CA Smog. Whether I do or not is not part of the wager conditions.
4. No limitations on engine, exhaust, air intake, transmission, suspension exist - there will be no whining about, "well, you did not tell me you did X, y or z. Speak now to any limitations you feel are unfair or forever hold your peace.
5. If a Bay Area member feels I have cheated in some way, but it cannot be proved, the bet is off (nobody pays anyone). That's right, if a witness feels the impossible has been achieved and something smells funny, the wager is null-and-void. Proof is not required; just instinct feeling honesty has not prevailed.
6. KC will not attend the second dyno run

I willing to take on 4 more members at $100 each. It is quite possible I will lose. I am willing to take the chance because of my faith in KC and IN NO WAY do I mean any disrespect to the vast Panther and engine knowledge of our members. No amount of money is worth alienating myself from our community. Thus Condition 5 above.

If I have missed some wager condition you feel should exist, please share. Looking for 4 more member bets. For example,
- how does one prove I have Chevron 91 octane fuel in the tank? I could ensure I close to empty and have a member go with me to gas up before the dyno run at ZcarGarage. And no, I have never been to ZcarGarage. I find them on Google while writing this thread.
- Is DynoJet the right kind of dyno to accurately measure rwhp. Over the years, I have heard an skilled dyno technician can manipulate a dyno machine to yield false/higher numbers. I want as pure and honest a dyno run as possible. So, a Bay Area resident member may know of a better place to conduct the second dyno run.

Respectfully Intended,
Lowndex

I am not betting against you because for the money you are spending I want you exceed your goals, but with these dyno rules I am certain I can get my wife's Honda to beat or come seriously (dangerously??) close to the 400 number. :D

[Lowndex]

You can install the valve seat with a special tool and green loctite. That method described sounds insanely expensive.
Sounds like you have a 5k set of heads.
You are close to the $ amount.

[Lowndex]

Can you post videos too please. :popcorn::popcorn:

Great suggestion and yes. My son has a GoPro4 HD camera. I will buy a tripod so the video is not jumpy.

[Lowndex]

I am not betting against you because for the money you are spending I want you exceed your goals, but with these dyno rules I am certain I can get my wife's Honda to beat or come seriously (dangerously??) close to the 400 number. :D

Well that is just plain depressing (for me). :o

[martyo]

Well that is just plain depressing (for me). :o

Like I said, I am not betting against you, just the rules need some polishing is all! :D

At some other point I do have questions about the boost plans for your car.....

[Lowndex]

This is getting good! I'll get in on the hundo bet!

Accepted.

Who else? Fordnut?

[Lowndex]

Like I said, I am not betting against you, just the rules need some polishing is all! :D

At some other point I do have questions about the boost plans for your car.....

I am not trying to hustle aynone. Tell us the rules changes needed and I will respond.

[ctrlraven]

I'm sure I have missed it in many of your threads but what will be the displacement and CR of your motor?

Will the dyno numbers be STD or SAE with correction factors applied?

Your motor will have to be making 475-500 at the flywheel to surpass 400 at the wheels.

[Lowndex]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58600

Displacement: Stroker 5.3L/323.426 ci
Compression ratio: 10.5:1

Dyno must be SAE (STD is bs - for those needing to compensate for 'something'.) BRG Racing DynoJet is SAE with applied corrections, only.

BRG Racing is well established with AFM (http://afmracing.org/) and AMA (http://www.motoamerica.com/) motorcycle racers along with muscle car and race car projects. One race care project won the Silver State Classic (http://www.silverstateclassic.com/default.aspx).

*****************

This is from a magazine article on "dynojet" dynos.

SAE j1349 correction:
29.23 in/hg.
77 degree temp
0 percent humidity

Standard correction:
29.92 in/hg.
68 degree temp
0 percent humidity

What this all means is that "Standard" will give you 2.6 percent better numbers (very popular for the import crowd). The example the magazine gave was a Vette making 412 (SAE corrected hp). With the Standard correction it made 423. All that you will have to do is multiply your "Standard rwhp" by .974 This should equal SAE (the one everyone uses).

Up here in the great white North (Washington) the temps are in the 40-50 degree area, along with 29.9-30 in/hg. So, our numbers are actually corrected down from what it made at the rear. Usually, 96-97 percent of actual posted numbers. If you dyno when it's a hotter temp or higher altitudes the numbers will usually correct up to equal the desired temp, humidity and pressure of the correction factor.

Source: LS1tech.com

[Lowndex]

I hear crickets. :)

[Spectragod]

So is this an "at the wheels " or a "flywheel" measurement?

[djcrook73]

Those heads are like jewelry man, Nice! I for one can appreciate someone with enough balls to throw down the gauntlet and make some wagers on it.. hope you make the magic number!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

[Lowndex]

So is this an "at the wheels " or a "flywheel" measurement?

rwhp is all that matters, yes.

[Lowndex]

Those heads are like jewelry man, Nice! I for one can appreciate someone with enough balls to throw down the gauntlet and make some wagers on it.. hope you make the magic number!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk

Thank you, but even if I lose, I win - get together local Marauder members for a day of fun, pay off bets with grace and a smile and learn from others what I do not know. If I win, share how BRG Racing delivered the highest naturally aspirated rwhp motor ever - all members benefit. This should be fun and a win for us all, no matter the outcome of the bet.

[Triple Threat]

Can one ever have enough power? :D


NO, I can never have enough.

[RubberCtyRauder]

Too much power and it won't be as streetable. Heavy car, not low enough center of weight or front to back weight distribution will break the tires loose when you need them most. Nothing wrong with power but there is point of where it becomes a track car and not street friendly

[MOTOWN]

Too much power and it won't be as streetable. Heavy car, not low enough center of weight or front to back weight distribution will break the tires loose when you need them most. Nothing wrong with power but there is point of where it becomes a track car and not street friendly

Lol! And what exactly is too much power?

[justbob]

Too much power and it won't be as streetable. Heavy car, not low enough center of weight or front to back weight distribution will break the tires loose when you need them most. Nothing wrong with power but there is point of where it becomes a track car and not street friendly


Why didn't you post this a year ago man?


Sent from my iThrone using Tapatalk

[FordNut]

I'm trying to remember how close you got N/A ?
Three twenties?
Can you please refresh us?

I made 365


Care to make a wager?

Not really


Who else? Fordnut?

Nah.. I hope you can do it, but you're really not the first to try a "no limit" NA modular build.



No amount of money is worth alienating myself from our community.

My thoughts exactly. I'll bet you a beer though...



Displacement: Stroker 5.3L/323.426 ci
Compression ratio: 10.5:1

Sounds close to my build.
Here's why I have doubts...
My head work looked almost identical to yours.
Oversize valves, seats, etc.
Ported, chambers cleaned up.
Teflon coated valve stems, cam saddles and caps.
Ceramic coated valve surfaces, chambers, and exhaust ports.
Micro-polished cams and followers.
Comp beehive springs.
Comp cams .475/.450 lift (I forget the duration, I'll hunt that down later)
Intake ported. (upper, lower, larger TB, Larger MAF & inlet piping)
Kooks headers, high flow cats, 2-1/2" exhaust.
9.5:1 CP pistons, teflon skirts, ceramic tops, raised wrist pins.
Custom billet rods from Pauter: cross-beam, rifle-drilled for wristpin oiling, SBC length, cryo treated and micro-polished.
Kellogg forged stroker crank, cryo treated and micro-polished.
More, but I can't remember right now.
93 octane gas.

There have been a few buildups that were going for killer hp numbers but their cam specs were milder than mine. I said no way, they disagreed. Until they hit the dyno.

[FordNut]

Can one ever have enough power? :D


Too much power and it won't be as streetable. Heavy car, not low enough center of weight or front to back weight distribution will break the tires loose when you need them most. Nothing wrong with power but there is point of where it becomes a track car and not street friendly


Lol! And what exactly is too much power?

My car was much more fun at around 500 rwhp.

[Spectragod]

Too much power and it won't be as streetable. Heavy car, not low enough center of weight or front to back weight distribution will break the tires loose when you need them most. Nothing wrong with power but there is point of where it becomes a track car and not street friendly

All more the reason to have a DTR, it'll never be a track car..... :D

[FordNut]

The heads do look awesome.

Every time a race engine builder has seen mine they've had to clean up the mess from slobbering all over the place.

[RubberCtyRauder]

There is no magic number of too much hp. Every car every driver is different. Im not making judgments . I'm all for these power numbers many are achieving. I do heard more than one say there e85 or race gas tune is like stupid power can't really enjoy it in town.

[Lowndex]

I made 365



Not really



Nah.. I hope you can do it, but you're really not the first to try a "no limit" NA modular build.



My thoughts exactly. I'll bet you a beer though...



Sounds close to my build.
Here's why I have doubts...
My head work looked almost identical to yours.
Oversize valves, seats, etc.
Ported, chambers cleaned up.
Teflon coated valve stems, cam saddles and caps.
Ceramic coated valve surfaces, chambers, and exhaust ports.
Micro-polished cams and followers.
Comp beehive springs.
Comp cams .475/.450 lift (I forget the duration, I'll hunt that down later)
Intake ported. (upper, lower, larger TB, Larger MAF & inlet piping)
Kooks headers, high flow cats, 2-1/2" exhaust.
9.5:1 CP pistons, teflon skirts, ceramic tops, raised wrist pins.
Custom billet rods from Pauter: cross-beam, rifle-drilled for wristpin oiling, SBC length, cryo treated and micro-polished.
Kellogg forged stroker crank, cryo treated and micro-polished.
More, but I can't remember right now.
93 octane gas.

There have been a few buildups that were going for killer hp numbers but their cam specs were milder than mine. I said no way, they disagreed. Until they hit the dyno.

I am all too familiar hundreds, if not thousands, have gone before me.

Beer bet accepted.

[Lowndex]

The heads do look awesome.

Every time a race engine builder has seen mine they've had to clean up the mess from slobbering all over the place.

Thank you. I will pass along the compliment to KC.

[Lowndex]

Recall last Summer I rode in BRG Racing ' s Mustang, which is owned by the Chief Mechanic, Freddie. Said car has something close to 700 rwhp! I hated it. Way too much power for me.

[RubberCtyRauder]

You may not need a power Adder. Drive it and see what up

[Lowndex]

You may not need a power Adder. Drive it and see what up

Wash your mouth out with soap. :)

[lji372]

I would be honored to lose, I hope you break the 400 mark.

Sometimes a small wager is the push one needs to get over the top :2thumbs:

With that said I still have my doubts based on the history here, good luck sir.

[FordNut]

I made 365

Sounds close to my build.
Here's why I have doubts...
My head work looked almost identical to yours.
Oversize valves, seats, etc.
Ported, chambers cleaned up.
Teflon coated valve stems, cam saddles and caps.
Ceramic coated valve surfaces, chambers, and exhaust ports.
Micro-polished cams and followers.
Comp beehive springs.
Comp cams .475/.450 lift (I forget the duration, I'll hunt that down later)
Intake ported. (upper, lower, larger TB, Larger MAF & inlet piping)
Kooks headers, high flow cats, 2-1/2" exhaust.
9.5:1 CP pistons, teflon skirts, ceramic tops, raised wrist pins.
Custom billet rods from Pauter: cross-beam, rifle-drilled for wristpin oiling, SBC length, cryo treated and micro-polished.
Kellogg forged stroker crank, cryo treated and micro-polished.
More, but I can't remember right now.
93 octane gas.

Cam duration was 222/224

[Lowndex]

I would be honored to lose, I hope you break the 400 mark.

Sometimes a small wager is the push one needs to get over the top :2thumbs:

With that said I still have my doubts based on the history here, good luck sir.

Imagine some of the local guys get together for a dyno day. We video everyone's runs and just have fun. The bet is just to bring us all together: here, there, anywhere, ...., yes, I like green eggs and ham.

[Lowndex]

Cam duration was 222/224

I forwarded this thread to KC months ago. I also. From another Marauder forum, all the NA power numbers. As you know, you are #1.

So, we will see.

[1Marauder]

I would be honored to lose, I hope you break the 400 mark.

Sometimes a small wager is the push one needs to get over the top :2thumbs:

With that said I still have my doubts based on the history here, good luck sir.


True enough. It is the small valuable wagers in life with like minded friends that make everyone play better. Like the .50 cents a hole on the golf course, or the dollar playing liars dice...

[1Marauder]

Those heads are like jewelry man, Nice! I for one can appreciate someone with enough balls to throw down the gauntlet and make some wagers on it.. hope you make the magic number!

Sent from my Nexus 5 using Tapatalk


I am with DJ and Lifespeed... the heads are pure art. And the build sounds TOUGH! I really hope you make 400+RWHP. And yes, I will be there to witness the Dynos and drive my lowly stock NA SB Marauder... the one that won THREE (3) of five awards at Marauderville XIII.

[Lowndex]

KC will appreciate the kind words. I keep trying to picture handling valve seats soaked in liquid nitrogen, placing them just so and then seating within the hole - all in a few tens of seconds. Fail to do so and you must do 'what' to get the valve seat out and start all over. I have no idea what the 'what' process must be.

I have never seen a Marauder that won an award. It will be rewarding seeing your ride, Lifespeed's suspension setup, hearing from Clayton about the Marauder parade and more.

Also, there is no such thing as a lowly Marauder. A stock, beautifully maintained Marauder is special.

Imagine a similar local event in Zack's backyard. He shows up with The Lincoln.

[FordNut]

I keep trying to picture handling valve seats soaked in liquid nitrogen, placing them just so and then seating within the hole - all in a few tens of seconds. Fail to do so and you must do 'what' to get the valve seat out and start all over. I have no idea what the 'what' process must be.


When the machine shop did mine using the hot/cold technique they told me the new seats just dropped in, easy as pie. Failure is not an option.

[MOTOWN]

All this talk about heads makes me wish I had taken the time to fully port , and polish my heads i really think my combo is at the point of benefiting from ported heads.

[Lowndex]

All this talk about heads makes me wish I had taken the time to fully port , and polish my heads i really think my combo is at the point of benefiting from ported heads.

Can I get an Amen? Yank them and do it during Winter.

[Lowndex]

When the machine shop did mine using the hot/cold technique they told me the new seats just dropped in, easy as pie. Failure is not an option.

Ask them what the tolerance was - margin for error.

[Lowndex]

With only two bet takers, I am changing the conditions of the bet.

All prior conditions apply with one change:
* If my motor does not produce 400 or more rwhp, the five members below win $100 each. (SAE with applied corrections, 91 octane, no nothing extra, etc)

* If my motor does produce 400 or more rwhp, no one pays me! Essentially, a one-way bet you cannot lose.

lji372 and MOTOWN - because they took the bet
lifespeed - because he is helping with design of my suspension
sailsmen - he's so sweet (sorry dude)
zack - because he builds incredible mods for our Marauders

[lifespeed]

All this talk about heads makes me wish I had taken the time to fully port , and polish my heads i really think my combo is at the point of benefiting from ported heads.

Probably the increased flow is a bigger deal for 5.3L displacement, but I imagine it would help the 4.6L especially in the high RPM range.

[Lowndex]

Also, a SPD custom made exhaust system (http://www.spdexhaust.com/images/SPD_Gallery/SPD_Headers/Header_Slide_Show.html) does not hurt: headers, x-pipe, long tubes to Aero Exhaust mufflers (http://www.aeroexhaust.com/mufflers.html).

[Lowndex]

Probably the increased flow is a bigger deal for 5.3L displacement, but I imagine it would help the 4.6L especially in the high RPM range.

Is a bigger deal, but many here have stated the stock 4.6L with forged internals can do a great deal for rwhp. It's all about the quality of those forged internals and getting 'super heads'.

[martyo]

Also, a SPD custom made exhaust system (http://www.spdexhaust.com/images/SPD_Gallery/SPD_Headers/Header_Slide_Show.html) does not hurt: headers, x-pipe, long tubes to Aero Exhaust mufflers (http://www.aeroexhaust.com/mufflers.html).

Bring ear plugs to the dyno challenge!!! :P

[RacerX]

Bring ear plugs to the dyno challenge!!! :P

Bring electric cutouts...

[Lowndex]

Bring ear plugs to the dyno challenge!!! :P

Earplugs? I am bringing my dynamic gun headphones.

[MOTOWN]

Probably the increased flow is a bigger deal for 5.3L displacement, but I imagine it would help the 4.6L especially in the high RPM range.

Your kidding right :confused:

[martyo]

Earplugs? I am bringing my dynamic gun headphones.

I'm sorry. Could you type louder. I can't hear you.

[martyo]

Bring electric cutouts...

I just starting installing those on my '78 TA project last night.

[Lowndex]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8owi8IHmbcI

[MOTOWN]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8owi8IHmbcI

I'll never understand why people install that garbage on their car , other than getting you a loud exhaust ticket it will gain you nothing .

[justbob]

I'll never understand why people install that garbage on their car , other than getting you a loud exhaust ticket it will gain you nothing .


Actually I gained 11 HP/ 13 TQ back to back open/closed a couple of years back. I was kind of surprised but didn't really care. An increase to me means something north of at least 50! I was just curious.

I also gained plenty of headaches! I thought they were fun for the first couple of weeks then I kicked myself for spending over $500 on that crap. They've been collecting dust on the shelf longer than they were on the car!

Idle sounds okay. WOT I liked, ANYTHING in between sounded like garbage. Modulars sound terrible with them.

Shooting blue flames out the turn downs at every shift at night was pretty bad ass.. [emoji6]


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[1Marauder]

With only two bet takers, I am changing the conditions of the bet.

All prior conditions apply with one change:
* If my motor does not produce 400 or more rwhp, the five members below win $100 each. (SAE with applied corrections, 91 octane, no nothing extra, etc)

* If my motor does produce 400 or more rwhp, no one pays me! Essentially, a one-way bet you cannot lose.

lji372 and MOTOWN - because they took the bet
lifespeed - because he is helping with design of my suspension
sailsmen - he's so sweet (sorry dude)
zack - because he builds incredible mods for our Marauders


WHAT AM I, "Chopped Liver?, Fishbait, Chum?" Dang....

[martyo]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8owi8IHmbcI

I have these on two and a half of my cars and by the end of the day on Monday, the other half of the third car will be installed.

Folks love 'em. I love 'em and it lets me telegraph to my wife and neighbors that I am coming back into the neighborhood.

We have also installed many sets on customer cars and they love them as well.

At the car cruises they are loved by the other attendees!!!!

[lji372]

I have these on two and a half of my cars and by the end of the day on Monday, the other half of the third car will be installed.

Folks love 'em. I love 'em and it lets me telegraph to my wife and neighbors that I am coming back into the neighborhood.

We have also installed many sets on customer cars and they love them as well.

At the car cruises they are loved by the other attendees!!!!

Can't argue that, people do love'm.

I've never seen somebody turn away and go ewe cut outs.

But, I as well will pass :beatnik:

[RubberCtyRauder]

Can't argue that, people do love'm.

I've never seen somebody turn away and go ewe cut outs.

But, I as well will pass :beatnik:


e w e are sheep:eek:

[lji372]

e w e are sheep:eek:

Y e w e would know :P

[WPG_Merc]

:popcorn::popcorn:

I already rattle city blocks as it is. :D

[Lowndex]

WHAT AM I, "Chopped Liver?, Fishbait, Chum?" Dang....

Whoops. I apologize Chopped Bait.

You're in.

:D

[Lowndex]

KC refuses to put electronic cutouts on my car and said he would disown me if I did.

So, they're out.

[MOTOWN]

KC refuses to put electronic cutouts on my car and said he would disown me if I did.

So, they're out.

KC is starting to grow on me! I think they are silly, but some like the look at me stuff , I'll definitely pass.

[lifespeed]

Given the 5.0L Coyote makes over 400HP it would seem possible to reach that level with a 5.3L modular if the combination is right, even without VVT.

[RubberCtyRauder]

And there's a member on here with 5.3 and is at 321 Rwhp. Coyote had nothing to do with it

[MOTOWN]

Given the 5.0L Coyote makes over 400HP it would seem possible to reach that level with a 5.3L modular if the combination is right, even without VVT.

Not a fair comparison the vvt makes a big difference, I have yet to see anyone reach 400rwhp with a 5.3l motor , and I'll say it again the 5.3l stroker is a total waste of money.

[lifespeed]

And there's a member on here with 5.3 and is at 321 Rwhp. Coyote had nothing to do with it

I guess that is crank HP, 400HP at the rear wheels would be an accomplishment.

[babbage]

My car was much more fun at around 500 rwhp.

If you made 365HP N/A at the wheels with a 5.3 at 9.5:1, the "same setup" at 10.5:1 would be about 376 HP (about 24hp short)

Perhaps Lowindex will get these - which "should" put him at 400 RWHP, N/A

http://www.modularmotorsportsracing.c om/cart/index.php?main_page=product_in fo&cPath=3&products_id=186

[Logizyme]

Are you planning on spinning your engine faster than the stock 60XX RPM? Maybe I missed it but what are you planning to do about the intake manifold?

Given really high flow heads, intake, and exhaust, the compression ratio, displacement and spinning it up to 7k+ I bet on breaking 400.

[Lowndex]

Are you planning on spinning your engine faster than the stock 60XX RPM? Maybe I missed it but what are you planning to do about the intake manifold?

Given really high flow heads, intake, and exhaust, the compression ratio, displacement and spinning it up to 7k+ I bet on breaking 400.

Options are available for the intake manifold: stock or an aftermarket approach.

Greater than 400 rwhp (NA, SAE with corrections applied) is the plan.

[lifespeed]

If you made 365HP N/A at the wheels with a 5.3 at 9.5:1, the "same setup" at 10.5:1 would be about 376 HP (about 24hp short)

Perhaps Lowindex will get these - which "should" put him at 400 RWHP, N/A

http://www.modularmotorsportsracing.c om/cart/index.php?main_page=product_in fo&cPath=3&products_id=186

Those are expensive!! What ever happened to buying a set of roller rockers for a big block Chevy for $400. OK, twice as many rockers so maybe $800? But $3,300!?!?

[lifespeed]

Are you planning on spinning your engine faster than the stock 60XX RPM? Maybe I missed it but what are you planning to do about the intake manifold?

Given really high flow heads, intake, and exhaust, the compression ratio, displacement and spinning it up to 7k+ I bet on breaking 400.

Spinning it faster while making more horsepower requires longer duration cams. More lift doesn't hurt either. I guess the stock cams are not in the engine any longer? Of course the high-RPM approach is most driveable in a lighter car, a heavy Marauder likes low-speed torque. Or a stall converter can help cover up the low end hole, but those can be irritating to drive if not done just right.

[Lowndex]

Spinning it faster while making more horsepower requires longer duration cams. More lift doesn't hurt either. I guess the stock cams are not in the engine any longer? Of course the high-RPM approach is most driveable in a lighter car, a heavy Marauder likes low-speed torque. Or a stall converter can help cover up the low end hole, but those can be irritating to drive if not done just right.

The stock engine has been pulled with none of its parts used in the new engine, with one possible exception: intake manifold. If the stock intake manifold delivers the required air flow, it will be used; else, an aftermarket part.

The stock motor has been replaced by a custom Livernois aluminum short block with selected forged internals - http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58600

[lifespeed]

The stock engine has been pulled with none of its parts used in the new engine, with one possible exception: intake manifold. If the stock intake manifold delivers the required air flow, it will be used; else, an aftermarket part.

The stock motor has been replaced by a custom Livernois aluminum short block with selected forged internals - http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=58600


Bullet race camshafts arrive 2/01/16

OK, so you have aftermarket cams. Should help it rev and make power. Part numbers or specs? I'm sure you're getting a stall converter too so the low end will be less of an issue.

[babbage]

Those are expensive!! What ever happened to buying a set of roller rockers for a big block Chevy for $400. OK, twice as many rockers so maybe $800? But $3,300!?!?

Since Lowindex was going highend - why not! ;) could be the last 24HP he needs to get 400 RWHP

There are also these (I will get these for my heads I think): http://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-4v-rocker-set-9612.html

You need (2) sets for DOHC 32V

[lifespeed]

Since Lowindex was going highend - why not! ;) could be the last 24HP he needs to get 400 RWHP

There are also these (I will get these for my heads I think): http://www.americanmuscle.com/frpp-4v-rocker-set-9612.html

You need (2) sets for DOHC 32V

I'm not exactly a cheapskate when it comes to Marauder parts, but those MMR roller tips are the price of a supercharger. No doubt they are the best available. As far as bang for the buck, not so great. Yeah, for Lowndex they are just what the engine builder ordered. Supposedly roller tips are a little better on valve and guide wear also.

[Lowndex]

Keep the suggestions/ideas coming. 400 rwhp is the minimum goal. :)

[Logizyme]

Still wondering if your planning on spining it faster than stock. Cause if your keeping under 6100 I dont think your making 400RWHP

Also I dont think your making 400 on the stock intake manifold.

[Logizyme]

Spinning it faster while making more horsepower requires longer duration cams. More lift doesn't hurt either. I guess the stock cams are not in the engine any longer? Of course the high-RPM approach is most driveable in a lighter car, a heavy Marauder likes low-speed torque. Or a stall converter can help cover up the low end hole, but those can be irritating to drive if not done just right.

The porting work, oversized valves, big exhaust and cams are all tuning this engine for higher RPM, I bet he peaks after 6k anyway. Gearing and stall are only going to matter for launches, at any kind of a roll torque wont mean anything, the fact that its a heavier car wont mean anything, all that will matter is the avg power shift to shift.

[lifespeed]

The porting work, oversized valves, big exhaust and cams are all tuning this engine for higher RPM, I bet he peaks after 6k anyway. Gearing and stall are only going to matter for launches, at any kind of a roll torque wont mean anything, the fact that its a heavier car wont mean anything, all that will matter is the avg power shift to shift.

Yes, but the valves still have to stay open longer. He already has an aftermarket cam.

Heavier cars can and do go fast with a high-RPM motor, all you have to do is keep it wound up. But the driving experience can be affected. Fast times at the track don't completely describe behavior on the street. Most people will compromise a little to get reasonable street manners and retain at least some low-speed torque, something the 4.6L 4V NA doesn't have in excess. Supercharging seems to be the best fix.

[justbob]

Still wondering if your planning on spining it faster than stock. Cause if your keeping under 6100 I dont think your making 400RWHP

Also I dont think your making 400 on the stock intake manifold.


The intake and T.B. CFM can well exceed a 400hp goal. If not N/A, just adding a T.B. you could even double that without even porting.


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[lji372]

The intake and T.B. CFM can well exceed a 400hp goal. If not N/A, just adding a T.B. you could even double that without even porting.


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you and that damn throttle body fiasco ($$$$$$$$$) ugh......





thank you, i think........ :bows:

[MOTOWN]

Since when in the hell do bigger throttle body's make more hp?.........oh wait! LMAO!

[FordNut]

Supercharging seems to be the best fix.

I don't know it that option is still possible on pump gas and 10.5:1 C.R.

[lifespeed]

I don't know it that option is still possible on pump gas and 10.5:1 C.R.

At some point I read the goal was to add the CARB-approved Vortech kit. Perhaps plans changed? But you are right, if supercharging is the end goal a lower CR is preferred. People supercharge the stock 4.6L (10.2:1?), but it can't take much boost. I suspect this has as much to do with avoiding detonation as it does the cast pistons and rods lack of strength.

[Lowndex]

At some point I read the goal was to add the CARB-approved Vortech kit. Perhaps plans changed? But you are right, if supercharging is the end goal a lower CR is preferred. People supercharge the stock 4.6L (10.2:1?), but it can't take much boost. I suspect this has as much to do with avoiding detonation as it does the cast pistons and rods lack of strength.

No change in the ADTR Stage 2 Vortech Supercharger. If the motor reaches 450 rwhp (or damn near it) , while keeping rpm reasonable, I may not need a supercharger. But, that is unlikely and pass CA Smog.

If I get 401 rwhp, a ADTR supercharger follows. First, I want to a see a stable motor, transmission, suspension, braking care established. Then I can keep adding mods and re-paint with a $25,000 paint job.

[Lowndex]

I don't know it that option is still possible on pump gas and 10.5:1 C.R.

All things are possible - the harder challenges just cost more $.

If I do not like the engine setup and driveability, I will change it and all things are on the table - rip out pistons, camshafts and lower compression. Then add a blower. Time and money.

[babbage]

Since when in the hell do bigger throttle body's make more hp?.........oh wait! LMAO!

Motown post up a pic of that Hogan intake you have, that would work for Lowindex...

[Lowndex]

Motown post up a pic of that Hogan intake you have, that would work for Lowndex...

Yes, please.

[Lowndex]

I just spoke with KC. He said the stock intake manifold is capable of 600 hp (probably more - you guys would know best). Need more, add a bigger throttle body. As all of you know, this hurts the daily drive experience. KC feels his tuning skills can find a balance I will enjoy. If not, we will consider aftermarket intake manifolds and whatever else is needed.

[babbage]

I just spoke with KC. He said the stock intake manifold is capable of 600 hp (probably more - you guys would know best). Need more, add a bigger throttle body. As all of you know, this hurts the daily drive experience. KC feels his tuning skills can find a balance I will enjoy. If not, we will consider aftermarket intake manifolds and whatever else is needed.

stock intake manifold can be cut open, ported polished and power coated.

NASVT - Member here does them, does a great job too.

[RubberCtyRauder]

No change in the ADTR Stage 2 Vortech Supercharger. If the motor reaches 450 rwhp (or damn near it) , while keeping rpm reasonable, I may not need a supercharger. But, that is unlikely and pass CA Smog.

If I get 401 rwhp, a ADTR supercharger follows. First, I want to a see a stable motor, transmission, suspension, braking care established. Then I can keep adding mods and re-paint with a $25,000 paint job.

A $25k paint job? How far off the deep end have you gone? Good luck finding insurance that will agree to the value you want

[Lowndex]

stock intake manifold can be cut open, ported polished and power coated.

NASVT - Member here does them, does a great job too.

Thank you. Nice to know.

[lji372]

I just spoke with KC. He said the stock intake manifold is capable of 600 hp (probably more - you guys would know best). Need more, add a bigger throttle body. As all of you know, this hurts the daily drive experience. KC feels his tuning skills can find a balance I will enjoy. If not, we will consider aftermarket intake manifolds and whatever else is needed.


I was 640 stock throttle body and intake :beatnik:

[Limited360]

I was 640 stock throttle body and intake :beatnik:

Was it worth it going up to the larger TB? :violin::violin:

[lji372]

Was it worth it going up to the larger TB? :violin::violin:

Haven't driven it enough to notice to be honest.

Dyno, garage, winter...... :depress:

[Limited360]

Haven't driven it enough to notice to be honest.

Dyno, garage, winter...... :depress:

My bad... My bad...

Has to be worth it... you made more power ;)

Next up is cleaning up the intercooler plumbing and start tucking the wire harness...

:bigcry::bigcry:

[MOTOWN]

Motown post up a pic of that Hogan intake you have, that would work for Lowindex...

I'll see what I can find

[babbage]

I'll see what I can find

Wow, that is really beautiful (and functional) - I remember when they send you the 2v version.... (and wouldn't let you keep it - lol)

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=43 310&d=1456478635

[Triple Threat]

I was 640 stock throttle body and intake :beatnik:


I have 767 with stock intake and Accufab throttle body.On dyno the t/b picked up 20 rwhp at wot with supercharger.On n/a engine the Accufab t/b will not make a difference.

[Lowndex]

I'll see what I can find

How is that monster supposed to fit under the hood?

[MOTOWN]

How is that monster supposed to fit under the hood?

Simple , it fits under a stock hood after the center support brace is cut , but i have a Class Glass cowl hood.

[Lowndex]

Simple , it fits under a stock hood after the center support brace is cut , but i have a Class Glass cowl hood.

Please share a pic of both your engine bay and hood closed.

Thank you for the assistance.

[MyBlackBeasts]

Please share a pic of both your engine bay and hood closed.

Thank you for the assistance.

Here's 44 pages to review.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=79427 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=79427)

10 pages.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=88216

[Lowndex]

[QUOTE=MyBlackBeasts;1490328]Here's 44 pages to review.

Beautiful hood. Thanks for sharing.

[Lowndex]

Heads mounted:

http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/ghxaud.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmghxaudj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/5AKNTw.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm5AKNTwj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/921/r4inVm.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plr4inVmj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/fL2hyo.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pmfL2hyoj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/921/9Uc9OG.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pl9Uc9OGj)
http://imagizer.imageshack.us/v2/800x600q90/922/5yPP6a.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm5yPP6aj)

[RacerX]

I had to grind back some of the cam cap ribs or my cam lobes would hit. Make sure you tighten them down with the cams and turn them to check.

[Lowndex]

You are kidding right? I had to look up cam cap ribs to know what you meant. :)

Thank you for the input. There are a few problems KC is addressing:
1. the gasket does not line up to the block - KC will need to alter the far-end block mounting hole a few thousands (one of three screws does not fit)
2. there a few cam ridges that require touch up to have a smooth transition from gasket to edge - else, air flow will be affected
3. the stock intake manifold ports need to be increased to match the head - maximize air flow.

KC is on the job.

[justbob]

Lookin good!


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