Problems Bleeding Brakes - Help Needed ASAP

[HotRaud90]

I got finished with changing to SS brake lines yesterday. While changing them, I decided to paint my calipers and I completely took the calipers off the car to do so, which means the brake lines were disconnected. Painting the calipers took longer than expected due to paint drying issues and so I left everything apart overnight. I made sure the tips of the brake lines were suspended in the air so all the fluid wouldn't leak out, which would lead to a dry master cylinder.

Much to my chagrin, checked it the next morning and regardless of position, the lines had gravity leaked all the fluid out and master cylinder looked just about dry. I refilled master cylinder and I attempted to bleed the brakes and did every step properly, but to no avail...the brake pedal is spongy and I have no brakes.

What can be done at this point? I need this fixed today. I'm unbelievably pissed, mostly at myself and my naivety concerning the master cylinder running dry overnight from the lines gravity bleeding themselves.

Can I bleed the MC? Will this fix the issue? I read about "bench bleeding" it while it's off the car, but I'm just friggin lost. I'd rather not take it off the car if possible. I know there has to be a tech on here or someone with experience that can help me through this. I'm distraught at this point. :confused: :alone: :depress:

[BAD MERC]

I use a vacuum bleeder at work but was never 100% confident about getting the ABS completely free of bubbles. I installed the TCE lines years ago and did a gravity bleed. I never had a confident pedal after that either.

[fastblackmerc]

I got finished with changing to SS brake lines yesterday. While changing them, I decided to paint my calipers and I completely took the calipers off the car to do so, which means the brake lines were disconnected. Painting the calipers took longer than expected due to paint drying issues and so I left everything apart overnight. I made sure the tips of the brake lines were suspended in the air so all the fluid wouldn't leak out, which would lead to a dry master cylinder.

Much to my chagrin, checked it the next morning and regardless of position, the lines had gravity leaked all the fluid out and master cylinder looked just about dry. I refilled master cylinder and I attempted to bleed the brakes and did every step properly, but to no avail...the brake pedal is spongy and I have no brakes.

What can be done at this point? I need this fixed today. I'm unbelievably pissed, mostly at myself and my naivety concerning the master cylinder running dry overnight from the lines gravity bleeding themselves.

Can I bleed the MC? Will this fix the issue? I read about "bench bleeding" it while it's off the car, but I'm just friggin lost. I'd rather not take it off the car if possible. I know there has to be a tech on here or someone with experience that can help me through this. I'm distraught at this point. :confused: :alone: :depress:

Your mistake was letting the MC go dry. Now there is probably air in the ABS pump.

This is what I'd do before losing all hope and taking to someone that has a scanner that can cycle the ABS pump.

How to gravity bleed brakes:


Fill the MC and keep it filled.
Starting at the right rear - furthest from the MC, put some clear tubing on the bleeder screw & into a container, open the bleeder screw and let it run until there is no bubbles. Don't let the MC run dry.
Next do the left rear - same thing & don't let the MC go dry
Next do it to the right front& again don't let the MC go dry.
Last - do it to the left front & don't let the MC go dry.


I hope your seeing a common thread here - "DON'T LET THE MC GO DRY"

If that doesn't fix the pedal some people have had luck with doing some panic stops so the ABS kicks in. When the ABS kicks in your running the abs pump. If that fixes your problem, go back and do the steps above.

And "DON'T LET THE MC GO DRY"


I use a vacuum bleeder at work but was never 100% confident about getting the ABS completely free of bubbles. I installed the TCE lines years ago and did a gravity bleed. I never had a confident pedal after that either.

I installed the TCE front brake upgrade kit - new calipers, SS lines and mounting brackets - gravity bled the brakes. Hitting my brakes fells like stepping on a brick. Hit the brakes hard enough and the fillings in your back teeth will exit...............


Disclaimer: I do not take any responsibility for anything that may happen due to anything I've mentioned above. Do so at your own risk.

[tbone]

Get speed bleeders and make your life much easier. When you bleed it again and if it is still spongy, you have to use a scan tool to open your abs module.

[fastblackmerc]

Get speed bleeders and make your life much easier. When you bleed it again and if it is still spongy, you have to use a scan tool to open your abs module.

I have the speed bleeders and they are great! OP was looking for a fast fix.

FYI.... http://www.speedbleeder.com/main.htm

I have them for the stock rear MM calipers, front Wilwoods and the wife's Charger.

Speed Bleeders didn't have them for the rear of the Charger. I called them, bought 4 of the stock bleeders ($4.00 each) mailed them in and they converted them..... free.... that's why I sent them 4.... :D

[tbone]

Speed bleeders should be standard equipment.

[Sactown]

Get speed bleeders and make your life much easier. When you bleed it again and if it is still spongy, you have to use a scan tool to open your abs module.


I have the speed bleeders and they are great! OP was looking for a fast fix.

FYI.... http://www.speedbleeder.com/main.htm

I have them for the stock rear MM calipers, front Wilwoods and the wife's Charger.

Speed Bleeders didn't have them for the rear of the Charger. I called them, bought 4 of the stock bleeders ($4.00 each) mailed them in and they converted them..... free.... that's why I sent them 4.... :D

Another nice thing to add to the cars, thanks!!

[HotRaud90]

FBM: I realize that was the mistake made. I knew goin into it that you can't let the MC run dry. However, I wasn't aware that it would bleed dry overnight, even with the lines suspended so they wouldn't bleed out (or so I thought). Oversight on my part on a step I didn't think through all the way. I guess it doesn't matter at this point anyways. Had it towed to a Ford dealership for them to look at and fix. Wanted to do it myself, but certain people were hounding me to go get it fixed and thought I had spent enough time on it already

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[ctrlraven]

Once the MC goes dry or a lot of air gets into the ABS pump, it's easier to just have Ford doing the brake bleed via scan tool that can cycle the ABS pump or borrow one from someone you know that has one.

A friend of mine changed out his lines but decided to paint the calipers as well, he took a pair of long tip vise grip pliers, put some FI hose on the tips and then clamped down on each of the stock rubber hoses to pinch them shut, no leaks and very little air to get out after the car sat for 3 days like that.

[fastblackmerc]

Another nice thing to add to the cars, thanks!!

You have the right part numbers?

SB1010S for front and rear stock calipers.

[HotRaud90]

Once the MC goes dry or a lot of air gets into the ABS pump, it's easier to just have Ford doing the brake bleed via scan tool that can cycle the ABS pump or borrow one from someone you know that has one.

A friend of mine changed out his lines but decided to paint the calipers as well, he took a pair of long tip vise grip pliers, put some FI hose on the tips and then clamped down on each of the stock rubber hoses to pinch them shut, no leaks and very little air to get out after the car sat for 3 days like that.
In hindsight, that is what I should have done with the lines. I should have found a way to seal them when I took calipers off. But hindsight is 20/20. Oblivious to what it would do then, lesson learned now. Not lookin forward to what Ford is gonna charge though...

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[Sactown]

You have the right part numbers?

SB1010S for front and rear stock calipers.

Thanks, was about to ask since they don't list the Marauder or Grand Marquis. Looks like that's the same # as the Crown Vic though. Is it worth getting the stainless steel version?

[lifespeed]

My local Ford dealer charged about $120 for the IDS bleed. It is a bitter pill considering it probably could have been avoided, but in the grand scheme of things not a huge price for car maintenance.

Might be a good time to consider putting in a new master cylinder if yours is old enough or exhibiting symptoms like inconsistent pedal travel. They don't last forever and swapping the master cylinder, even when bench-bled, is a likely way to need an IDS bleed.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

If you left the cap closed up top, it may have prevented the leak overnight.

[tbone]

The end of the hose would have to be above the height of the reservoir if not pinched off. The cap is one way vented. Otherwise the fluid can't go down as the brakes wear. Think thumb on a straw.

[fastblackmerc]

Thanks, was about to ask since they don't list the Marauder or Grand Marquis. Looks like that's the same # as the Crown Vic though. Is it worth getting the stainless steel version?

Marauder, CV & GM have the same bleeders. I'd certainly do the SS version.

[HotRaud90]

My local Ford dealer charged about $120 for the IDS bleed. It is a bitter pill considering it probably could have been avoided, but in the grand scheme of things not a huge price for car maintenance.

Might be a good time to consider putting in a new master cylinder if yours is old enough or exhibiting symptoms like inconsistent pedal travel. They don't last forever and swapping the master cylinder, even when bench-bled, is a likely way to need an IDS bleed.

I'll see what the dealership service guy says tomorrow morning. He said he couldn't get to it til then. Hopefully it's not more than that. I supplied my own fluid as well. I agree about it being a bitter pill. But, lesson learned I guess.


If you left the cap closed up top, it may have prevented the leak overnight.

Cap was closed the whole time during the process. Tbone is right, they needed to be above the height of the reservoir where the lines come from or they would leak regardless. Disconnecting lines from calipers for an extended period of time was the one and only thing I didn't think through all the way.

[HotRaud90]

Ford service rep called me today with the news that I need a new master cylinder and a brake booster. He said the master cylinder was leaking into the brake booster and it's probably a bad rear seal which is why it's leaking. He said after parts and labor with bleeding the whole system after install, the cost would be ~$1150 to which I said "WHAT?!?!". I asked him how did they come to find this out seeing as I sent the car there without any noticeable leaks. He said it was probably coincidence and it may have started leaking when I was bleeding the system.

Regardless, I find the cost of $1150 to be complete BS and there's no way I'm payin that much for this job. Especially since they brake booster will take another 2 days to get here and repairs won't be done til Friday.

Has anyone run into having to replace the brake booster and/or master cylinder? Would it be possible to buy the parts myself and replace it and save myself an a** ton of cash? I don't want to get in over my head, but I also don't want to pay that money. I need an answer quick so I can get it out of the stealership as soon as possible if it's possible to do it myself.

[lifespeed]

I replaced my master cylinder at 95K miles due to an internal leak causing inconsistent pedal travel. I tend to notice these things early and not wait for complete failure, so it did not get to the point of leaking externally.

Assuming your car has as many miles as is typical for a 12 year old car, needing a new master cylinder is no big surprise. They aren't expensive, look up the price at Tasca parts. Of course it is more expensive to pay dealer prices for parts and labor. The master cylinder and booster are an easy job. The IDS bleed you can't do. And it sounds like you can't drive the car back home for the repair? Difficult.

I think the booster replacement recommend is a result of brake fluid contamination.

Edit: have you considered the possibility you started down the brake maintenance path because of master cylinder symptoms?

[HotRaud90]

I replaced my master cylinder at 95K miles due to an internal leak causing inconsistent pedal travel. I tend to notice these things early and not wait for complete failure, so it did not get to the point of leaking externally.

Assuming your car has as many miles as is typical for a 12 year old car, needing a new master cylinder is no big surprise. They aren't expensive, look up the price at Tasca parts. Of course it is more expensive to pay dealer prices for parts and labor. The master cylinder and booster are an easy job. The IDS bleed you can't do. And it sounds like you can't drive the car back home for the repair? Difficult.

I think the booster replacement recommend is a result of brake fluid contamination.

Edit: have you considered the possibility you started down the brake maintenance path because of master cylinder symptoms?

There were no symptoms of a bad MC or booster when I started. I was simply installing SS lines because I wanted improvement over stock feel.

Will I need an IDS bleed after installing a new MC/booster? And is it possible to drive safely before that is done?

In other words, can I get the car towed home with my roadside assistance from the dealership, install the new parts and bleed the brakes myself, and then drive it back to the dealership to do IDS bleed after all is said and done?

[fastblackmerc]

"IF" you have to replace them, you might be OK with a bench bleed of the MC and a gravity bleed of the entire system.

I'd find an independent shop that can do the IDS bleed. Ask friends for references. You can also check http://www.cartalk.com/mechanics-files for mechanics. There are 77 listed for the Tampa area.

[HotRaud90]

Is the replacement of both the master cylinder and brake booster straightforward and as simple as taking the old parts off and bolt on in the new parts? Or are there any special procedures to consider? Such as draining a bunch of fluid out, disconnecting a bunch of lines, etc. Essentially, is it a straightforward procedure that won't take much time? I have a shop that could do the IDS bleed for me, but I want to know that this is something I could get done in a few hours and have to the shop ready to be bled.

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[fastblackmerc]

Is the replacement of both the master cylinder and brake booster straightforward and as simple as taking the old parts off and bolt on in the new parts? Or are there any special procedures to consider? Such as draining a bunch of fluid out, disconnecting a bunch of lines, etc. Essentially, is it a straightforward procedure that won't take much time? I have a shop that could do the IDS bleed for me, but I want to know that this is something I could get done in a few hours and have to the shop ready to be bled.

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Nothing special other than a bench bleed for the MC. A kit like this will make it less messy and easier http://www.oreillyauto.com/site/c/detail/MTM0/13911/N0678.oap

Probably the hardest is getting the retaining clip off booster rod and getting to the nuts for the booster.

[lifespeed]

There were no symptoms of a bad MC or booster when I started. I was simply installing SS lines because I wanted improvement over stock feel.

Given the dealer found a leaking MC it may be there were no symptoms that you noticed. If you just bought the car recently and it was already on the way out it could be hard to tell without driving a good MC for comparison. The early signs are subtle, and the truth is most people don't notice.

You can certainly fix it cheaper than the dealer if you can work out the logistics of safely moving the car (a little air in the ABS is safe, you might have to pump the pedal) to your house for repair, and then to the shop with the IDS tool which you will almost certainly need to get all the air out for the good pedal feel you want.

[HotRaud90]

You're right, none that I noticed. I've had the car for almost 2 years now and have put 28k on it and the brakes have felt the same, but you could be right about just not noticing.

I would like to fix it and buy the parts myself, but I would be payin out the butt for Ford parts, which I refuse to do at this point even though I want Ford parts.

I'm gonna hand it over to a shop owner that I have been directed to through my girlfriend's dad's car dealership. He said he will get me the Napa parts at wholesale pricing and will cut the labor in half for me. Said he could do it for under 500 out the door and they have a diagnostic system that will purge the ABS as well. At this point, that's somethin I can stomach.

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[HotRaud90]

Ending up only payin $265 labor/parts to get everything diagnosed properly* and bled including the ABS system. The local shop said MC and booster were not needed and originals were functioning properly. Not bad. Better than what I was expecting. Brakes feel much better with SS lines from TCE.

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[Fastbob]

Sometimes the master cylinder can be ruined when bleeding the brakes and pushing the pedal all the way to the floor. This causes the seals in the master cylinder to travel where they haven't gone before and sometimes the seals are destroyed. This can result in internal leaks or external leak into the brake booster. I always put a short 2x4 or similar under the brake pedal to limit its travel when bleeding the brakes in that manner.

http://www.secondchancegarage.com/public/bleeding-brakes.cfm