View Full Version : Temperature spiking at first warm up.
ByronRACE
04-19-2016, 09:02 AM
I'm observing something very strange on my 200K mile old 03 Marauder and wondering if anyone might know what it is.
I'm aware of the cooling system burp procedure sticky and have done this successfully a dozen times during the ownership of this car since new, and another half dozen times since this problem began.
I've changed the water pump.
I've changed the thermostat.
The fan is working.
Here's the problem:
During first cold start in the morning, or after work, the temperature will rise normally until it reaches near the middle/normal area, then it will rapidly rise from medium to somewhere between medium and hot within 3 seconds, then fall back down to normal/medium. At the same time, in the morning with the heater on, you can feel the heater water get warm immediately after this spike (cold before); which I assume means the thermostat opened. It does this about 1 in 3 cold starts; more frequently in the afternoon when the engine temp is around 70deg F.
I've observed the operation of the fan. I've observed that no hoses are collapsed. I've confirmed that the engine is indeed hot. The thermostat is Motorcraft. The new water pump is Motorcraft. There's nothing in the cooling system, I've flushed it.
No oil in the water, no water in the oil, no combustion byproducts in the coolant...tested all that.
When this spike is occurring, often times knocking it into neutral and blipping the throttle cures it. The thought here was the additional water pressure might push the thermostat open...seemed to cure it, not sure why. Additionally, knocking it into neutral, shutting off the engine and restarting it also seems to cure it. I've done both of these things and observed the temperature come rapidly back to the middle.
I don't get it. Any ideas?
fastblackmerc
04-19-2016, 09:55 AM
I'm observing something very strange on my 200K mile old 03 Marauder and wondering if anyone might know what it is.
I'm aware of the cooling system burp procedure sticky and have done this successfully a dozen times during the ownership of this car since new, and another half dozen times since this problem began.
I've changed the water pump.
I've changed the thermostat.
The fan is working.
Here's the problem:
During first cold start in the morning, or after work, the temperature will rise normally until it reaches near the middle/normal area, then it will rapidly rise from medium to somewhere between medium and hot within 3 seconds, then fall back down to normal/medium. At the same time, in the morning with the heater on, you can feel the heater water get warm immediately after this spike (cold before); which I assume means the thermostat opened. It does this about 1 in 3 cold starts; more frequently in the afternoon when the engine temp is around 70deg F.
I've observed the operation of the fan. I've observed that no hoses are collapsed. I've confirmed that the engine is indeed hot. The thermostat is Motorcraft. The new water pump is Motorcraft. There's nothing in the cooling system, I've flushed it.
No oil in the water, no water in the oil, no combustion byproducts in the coolant...tested all that.
When this spike is occurring, often times knocking it into neutral and blipping the throttle cures it. The thought here was the additional water pressure might push the thermostat open...seemed to cure it, not sure why. Additionally, knocking it into neutral, shutting off the engine and restarting it also seems to cure it. I've done both of these things and observed the temperature come rapidly back to the middle.
I don't get it. Any ideas?
Is the thermostat installed correctly?
Air in the system.
Turbov6Bryan
04-19-2016, 09:57 AM
I would park it on a steep hill with the nose up and run the engine and heater, squeeze the heater hoses to get rid of possible air pocket
Shut it off, pop the overflow cap to release the pressure, slowly unscrew the fill plug on the cot
I'd say your 1/4-1/2 gallon low
If you don't get heat out of the vents within 5 minutes of driving, you have a air pocket
fastblackmerc
04-19-2016, 10:11 AM
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=98532
ByronRACE
04-19-2016, 02:59 PM
I completely agree with you guys, that is most definitely what it acts like. However, 3 hours ago I went out to the parking lot, pulled out my 1/4" ratchet, pulled the cap, and the fluid is absolutely to the brim. When I filled and burped the system last night, I did so with the nose so high in the air, the tail pipes were touching the ground. I marked the reservoir this morning with a sharpie; and that level is exactly where the coolant was this afternoon. It sure seems like trapped air, but I'm beginning to fear the air is not residual; but being generated internally.
The thermostat is installed correctly. Long part up. Like this.
http://repairguide.autozone.com/znetrgs/repair_guide_content/en_us/images/0996b43f/80/20/4d/50/medium/0996b43f80204d50.gif
Given the location of the thermostat, I assume an air pocket between the thermostat and the engine would result in a big delay in getting the thing to open. I know that it does not have a bleeder hole like many other Ford designs, and I'm wondering if it wouldn't be a good idea to drill one so a minor amount of coolant can flow past the thermostat even when it is closed. This would aid in thermostat heating, would it not?
Turbov6Bryan
04-19-2016, 03:41 PM
I've drilled a 1/8 inch hole in many thermostats to eliminate most air pocket situations. Some stats have those little brass rattlers built in to do the same thing
I just replaced the oil filter housing on my car like 3 weeks ago, you have to drain all the coolant to do it
Park the car nose up and running hot, heat turned up all the way.... Start squeezing all the upper hoses, including the heater hoses, make sure the car is hot enough that the fan is on and it's pulling heat out of the radiator.
Shut it off, pull the overflow cap off, slowly pull the cot plug out.. Firmly Put a blue towel over the cot fill hole and start squeezing the drivers side rad hose
Check the level at the cot, it should be lower than before. I know when I'm filling mine the overflow starts filling up, get it to the fill mark, put the overflow cap on and keep filling and squeezing. Keep an eye on the overflow, if it keeps filling up, put a clamp on the big hose going down, this will keep you from overfilling the overflow
I don't think anything is wrong with your stat because if it never opens the car would overheat
Get it filled up, put it back together, remove the clamp and drive it
Let it sit overnight and check again
ByronRACE
04-19-2016, 04:31 PM
The last 2 thermostats (the one I just removed, and the new one that just went in) had no holes what so ever. No rattler, nothing...perfect tight seal when closed. I know this because I unbolted the thermostat housing and pulled the lower hose and nothing came out of the upper hose until I popped the thermostat out of the bore some 2 minutes later. Not a single drip. I think I'll pull it back apart and drill a hole through the perimeter housing; it seems silly for there to be ZERO flow across this area in this car...it's relying on nothing but conduction in a column of water to get the thermostat hot? I'm surprised it works as well as it does.
I'll go through the whole burp process again tonight.
Ourobos
04-19-2016, 06:35 PM
What thermostat did you use? Are there any leaves / debris between the condensor and radiator?
Logizyme
04-19-2016, 06:55 PM
Do a block test - prob head gaskets
fastblackmerc
04-20-2016, 04:31 AM
I recommend this thermostat... a little pricey but it works great!
http://www.lethalperformance.com/reische-performance-ford-4d-170-performance-thermostat.html
ByronRACE
04-20-2016, 09:48 AM
Thanks for the help guys. I did not touch the thermostat last night, but I did pull the rear tires up on car ramps, then used my high-lift jack and blocks to raise the nose of the car so high it looked hazardous. I let it sit like that and cool off overnight. This morning, much to my amazement, I pulled the cap on the crossover, found AIR, and it took about 1/2 gallon of coolant! I don't understand how these engines trap air like that at random...here's hoping I didn't hurt it driving it like that. I drove to work after the top-off and there was heat at the heater much sooner and the temperature gauge did nothing weird. I'll check it again several times over the next few days, but I'm guessing it was just a big trapped air pocket...as suggested. I'll update if anything changes.
Thanks a bunch for the help!
Turbov6Bryan
04-20-2016, 10:43 AM
Told yah 1/4-1/2 gallon:lol:
Next time use a friends driveway or yard, much easier :)
All is good, glad you got it fixed!
You don't need to have the car on an incline to burp the system.
ByronRACE
04-26-2016, 01:32 PM
Following my last post, I experienced delayed heater heat and a mild temp rise/spike again, and again found air in the crossover tube. I topped it off, and noted it took about 8 ounces. I started checking it daily again and over the next 6 days found that it took 4, then 2, then 0, then zero, then 2 then zero...ounces. All this time, I've been checking a marked line on my overflow/coolant bottle to make sure it's not consuming fluid. I check it at the same time every day; in the morning before driving it to work, after the car has been sitting from 6pm the day previous day.
As for not needing to incline the car/engine to get the air out, I completely agree that the crossover tube is the high point and you shouldn't need to incline the car. However, that is not consistent with my observation. It seems to help. In fact, I jacked the nose of the car up while the engine was idling and had already been up to temperature for a good 10 minutes...and observed air escape as I raised the nose. This has happened more than once.
My conclusion now is that on this car, the burp procedure is a week long ordeal of checking the high point for air over many days until you get multiple days where the fluid is full to the top of the crossover. I'll continue to check it until I get a long string of no change.
fastblackmerc
04-26-2016, 01:49 PM
Do you have one of the cooling mods installed? I have an original DR one and for whatever reason there is never alot of air trapped in the system.
Burping the engine takes 30 minuted.
Wrap the end of a funnel in teflon tape, then screw it into the crossover tube.
Vary the engine rpm while burping and you will never have a problem .
When it comes time to close the system, simply crack the coolant bottle cap to drain the coolant out of the funnel, then you're done
justbob
04-26-2016, 03:53 PM
I don't even run them anymore while filling. Once I squeeze and exercise every single hose in the system for ten minutes (starting at the lowest) I top it off and close it up. This has yet to fail me in the last dozen times on mine and others.
Overrated.
Sent from my iThrone using Tapatalk
ByronRACE
04-26-2016, 04:24 PM
The engine has no mods. Stock. I'm not burping the system weirdly; I'm following what is described above and what is in the sticky. Air remains. There is no CO2 in the water, and it's not consuming water. Why and where the air is coming from and why it's giving me such a hard time now is a mystery. I'm just telling you...every time I pull that cap off in the past week and a half, there's a little air in there and it needs topping off. Lately, it is trending such that it appears I have all the air out.
I'm beginning to wonder if the o-ring is leaking and sucking air back in when the system cools.
ByronRACE
05-05-2016, 11:01 AM
Alright guys, so I've got this problem solved...but it persisted until 3 days ago. After cool-down, there was always room at the cross-over for a few ounces of fluid every day.
What was it? The O-ring on the fill plug. I grabbed an o-ring that fit from my o-ring kit to replace the factory rotted o-ring and although it fit snugly and did not leak fluid, the damn thing acted like a one-way valve and allowed air to be sucked in past the plug when the engine cooled off.
Here's how I found it. Wondering if there was any air present on a warm engine, I'd crack the cap loose and listen for hiss...there never was any. Fluid was always full to the o-ring when hot. After cool-off, I'd crack the cap and air was present. So, I surmised that it might be sucking air at the filler so I hose-clamped a 6" piece of hose to the outside of the filler and filled it with antifreeze and left the hood open overnight. In the morning...yep...about half the fluid had been sucked into the crossover and the crossover was full when I removed the cap.
I then proceeded to ford and got a new o-ring and cap (just to make sure) and swapped it in. Solved.
I then took the old cap and installed a new factory o-ring on it and tried that. Also solved.
So...don't assume just any o-ring from your kit will work. It may not.
By the way, the O-Ring is $8 from Ford but seems to (by caliper) be a standard -015 Viton O-ring. Can any one confirm this? I've ordered a pack of 10 from amazon for about a buck...and will test. Now that I know this is so critical, I'll just change the dumb thing every time I mess with the coolant system.
bugsyc
05-05-2016, 11:50 AM
My car has been doing the same thing for years.Yes,I did burp it....I took it to Ford a few years back and they said it was some electrical signal interference thing.I don't remember exactly..The car was still under a extended warranty.So,they went ahead and did something..They said it was a 24 hour test.$1500.The warranty company covered it but,they weren't happy..When I got her back,no more temp. guage spiking...That lasted about 2 weeks and then back to going all the way up to hot and after maybe 15 seconds of hoping that the needle would come down,it did...Still does it to this day...Car stays half way between hot and cold after the spike..
Badass_forever
05-05-2016, 01:39 PM
i know what has worked for me on all my cars, i have the marauder, 99 cobra, 2000 cobra r and a 04 cobra, i drilled two 1/8 holes in the t-stat's, this allows flow through the t-stat and it warms up quickly. you can order t-stat's that say they are the right part number, but they are not correct. you need a t-stat that allows flow past it.
ByronRACE
05-06-2016, 10:01 PM
i know what has worked for me on all my cars, i have the marauder, 99 cobra, 2000 cobra r and a 04 cobra, i drilled two 1/8 holes in the t-stat's, this allows flow through the t-stat and it warms up quickly. you can order t-stat's that say they are the right part number, but they are not correct. you need a t-stat that allows flow past it.
The thermostats are Ford, from Ford. I also have the original thermostat that came out of the car when it was new. None of them have a bypass hole in them. I'm not disagreeing that bypass flow should tend to warm the thermostat even if there is an air pocket in the crossover, but I am disagreeing that the part is not correct...unless you're saying Ford designed the thermostat wrong.
In my case, the issue is the o-ring. I just got my $1 bag of 10 o-rings from amazon. They look right. I'll compare them with the factory $8 o-ring tomorrow.
babbage
05-07-2016, 07:08 AM
http://www.reischeperformance.com/refill.html
ByronRACE
05-12-2016, 03:14 PM
The O-Ring on the filler plug is indeed a -015 Viton o-ring, 10 for a dollar delivered on Amazon. Works fine. No air problems with these o-rings either. And yes, I went back to the HF O-Ring to double check and it took 4oz of fluid the next morning. If this o-ring does not seal perfectly, you can have a situation where it doesn't leak fluid, but does suck air at cool down. Hard to believe, but I can demonstrate it and am certain of it now.
88LTDCV351
05-12-2016, 03:39 PM
If you go on RockAuto and look at the pictures of the thermostats for 03 Marauder, you will see that some are different and are not really compatible for the Marauder despite it indicating they are for our cars.
Turbov6Bryan
05-12-2016, 06:34 PM
The O-Ring on the filler plug is indeed a -015 Viton o-ring, 10 for a dollar delivered on Amazon. Works fine. No air problems with these o-rings either. And yes, I went back to the HF O-Ring to double check and it took 4oz of fluid the next morning. If this o-ring does not seal perfectly, you can have a situation where it doesn't leak fluid, but does suck air at cool down. Hard to believe, but I can demonstrate it and am certain of it now.
Can I get a couple of those orings off ya?
Trade ya 8 red -007 EATC orings, that's enough for 2 cars
:)
ByronRACE
05-13-2016, 09:31 AM
If you go on RockAuto and look at the pictures of the thermostats for 03 Marauder, you will see that some are different and are not really compatible for the Marauder despite it indicating they are for our cars.
I'm using Motorcraft thermostats from the Ford dealer. The problem has been found, it's the o-ring on the filler plug.
ByronRACE
05-13-2016, 09:37 AM
Can I get a couple of those orings off ya?
Trade ya 8 red -007 EATC orings, that's enough for 2 cars
:)
http://www.amazon.com/015-Viton-Ring-Durometer-Black/dp/B000FMUW8S?ie=UTF8&psc=1&redirect=true&ref_=oh_aui_detailpage_o00_s00
They're a buck for 10. If you don't have amazon prime, maybe you have to pay for shipping...but I don't. PM me your address, I'll order you a pack. I already have a fat bag full of the EATC o-rings; I did that a couple years ago...but thanks.
ByronRACE
05-27-2016, 08:56 AM
Well guys, it's time to eat crow again. This problem has been really a ***** to get to the bottom of.
After replacing the o-ring and doing go-nogo tests and verified that it was the o-ring and after being absolutely sure it was the o-ring...the car was down 4oz of fluid after a week with the brand new o-ring in it. Slower leak, but still leaking none the less.
Frustrated, I decided to do more testing. I had previously pressure tested the system at the 15psi threshold before the cap vents and was unable to find any leaks. I decided this time to seal off the cap and pressurize the system a bit higher and let it sit and see if I could find a leak. I put a few layers of plastic wrap under the cap, screwed it down tight, then pressurized the system to 20psi using shop air, my shop-air regulator, and a good gauge. I let it sit for over an hour. Not a drop. Since it occurred to me that it could be a head gasket, I then decided to turn the engine over slowly by hand to make sure I didn't have a cylinder full of water after an hour. After cranking it over by hand, with the system still pressurized, I looked down under the crank pulley and there was a single drop of coolant. I immediately pulled the belt and water pump pulley to see where it came from, and was able to find the snail trail leading back to the tiny dime-sized freeze plug in the face of the water pump. This water pump is a brand new motorcraft replaced last july.
So, long story short...this is a water pump leak coming from the freeze plug that only occurs when the system pressure is high, and the engine is running. My guess is that the O-ring was somehow related and helping the system bleed coolant, or maybe it was also leaking, but it wasn't root cause by itself.
After replacing the water pump, I have not lost a drop of coolant in a week. If anything changes, I'll post.
Turbov6Bryan
05-27-2016, 09:58 AM
Glad you fixed it man, that's crazy how much hassle you've gone through
Fingers crossed for ya!
crownvic97
05-27-2016, 10:24 AM
Good job diagnosing the issue, hopefully it stays fixed!
ByronRACE
06-17-2016, 04:03 PM
Yep, no more issues with coolant level. Resolved.
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