Please suggest something. At my wits-end!

[Rockettman]

:confused:

I really need some suggestions here, on a tire issue.

I recently (in May), replaced the stock BFG tires with some new (staggerred) Khumho Ecsta PA31 tires (here in Canada).

Here's my problem:

At about 110kms/hr (70mph) and up, I begin to get a shake in the steering wheel.
The tires have been balanced: twice on a "traditional" balance machine; and now twice have been "Road Forced".

I've pulled the discs, to make 100% sure the mating surfaces are perfect. They are. When applying the brakes from that speed, there is NO pulse in the pedal what-so-ever. So that part is good. (But I know I'd feel that issue - if present - at any speed also).

I can't really complain anymore to the tire place/shop, as the tires DO infact balance on their machines. But on the car at speed, they don't seem to be. Yet it's been done 4 times now.

The problem too is that my old/original BFGs, never did this. At 140-145kms/hr (80mph+)...they were absolutely fine. So Im "pretty sure" its not the car.

I need help on what to look at or do next. Maybe an alignment? :(
This is very frustrating, because now it's just disappointing everytime I drive the car. And what good is that?:mad:

Please...advice? What to do next.

[WPG_Merc]

Maybe you need to do carfixers alignment may help or the type of tires are not working well for the MM. :beer:
:twocents:

carfixers alignment link
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=101567&highlight=carfixers+alignment

[Rockettman]

I asked about that alignment in the past actually.
I can't find a shop that'll do it, because of the time and how much work it involves over just lining up to stick settings. (That's what two places have told me anyway).



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[Fastbob]

Well an alignment is not going to help unless it were to find a worn out component. Here is what I would do......using an available spare tire and wheel that has been balanced, I would substitute the spare tire and wheel for the right front tire and wheel and go drive the car. If the vibration disappears you may have an "egg" shaped defective tire and you have found your issue. Repeat the process for the left front. This is a crude method that I have used in the past to find unsolvable vibrations.

[WPG_Merc]

I asked about that alignment in the past actually.
I can't find a shop that'll do it, because of the time and how much work it involves over just lining up to stick settings. (That's what two places have told me anyway).



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Is there any Speed Shops there that can do that type of alignment.
May cost more, but nothing is cheap for the MM's.

[Fastbob]

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/tires/kumho.html

Read the 3rd post at the link. Seems others have the same issue with those tires as you.

[Rockettman]

Thanks "Fastbob".
Wow! Just wow! That's unbelievable. As you say, I guess I'm not alone in this with these tires!


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[Zack]

Sounds like you have a bad tire

[Rockettman]

Would the Road Force not show a "bad tire"? Would it not show-up as "unbalanceable"?




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[sailsmen]

They may have sold you a square tire.

[Rockettman]

To note:
One thing I DID notice for the first time last night...
After a 30 minute highway drive at around 130kms/hr, the tires were hot to the touch when I got home.
Only strange because my BFGs never heated up like that!
Weird


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[Fastbob]

You would think roadforce would show it, but the roadforce machine I used did not spin the tire very fast. I am thinking the forces applied to the tire at actual speeds (your 70 mph) may be triggering the imbalance. Just a thought....

[Rockettman]

You would think roadforce would show it, but the roadforce machine I used did not spin the tire very fast. I am thinking the forces applied to the tire at actual speeds (your 70 mph) may be triggering the imbalance. Just a thought....



I had the same thought too. I wondered if it was the "heating up" at highway seeds that do not show up on any balancer.


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[Bluerauder]

Read the 3rd post at the link. Seems others have the same issue with those tires as you.


After reading about 10 of those reviews, I wouldn't touch Kumho tires with a 10-20 foot pole. Every review cited out-of-round tires with tread separation or belt separation and bulging. Several reviews cited sidewall or tread blowouts at highway speed in tires with low mileage along with sidewall overheating/melting. Customer Service was of no help at all. The cited problems would manifest itself in the vibrations you are feeling. Consider this as an advanced warning to a catastrophic failure. Get rid of those tires soon and get something recommended here on this site. Hope you can recover some of the cost; but the reviews on that are not encouraging at all.

[JustRight]

I'm running those tires and happy as heck. Very smooth and the handling is perfect for what I'm doing with the car.

You either have yourself a defective tire, the person balancing the tire didn't set the machine up correctly (can't count the times that's happened) or their balancer needs to be recalibrated.

Take it to another shop and ask them to check the balance for you.

[sailsmen]

I replaced OEM Michelins on an E150, mostly driven in town with Goodrich Comml Truck tires.
They were POS, the steering wheel never stopped moving on the Interstate because the sidewalls were flexing so much.

No more cheap tires for me.

[Rockettman]

After reading about 10 of those reviews, I wouldn't touch Kumho tires with a 10-20 foot pole. Every review cited out-of-round tires with tread separation or belt separation and bulging. Several reviews cited sidewall or tread blowouts at highway speed in tires with low mileage. Customer Service was of no help at all. The cited problems would manifest itself in the vibrations you are feeling. Consider this as an advanced warning to a catastrophic failure. Get rid of those tires soon and get something recommended here on this site. Hope you can recover some of the cost; but the reviews on that are not encouraging at all.



I actually had to stop reading them too. SOO many!
You have some good advice there..."advance warning".
I'm kinda nervous about them now.
I'm almost 100% in that fact that it'll be a "live and learn" experience (with trying to recoup any cost, unfortunately).
(They're NOT inexpensive up here).


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[Rockettman]

I'm running those tires and happy as heck. Very smooth and the handling is perfect for what I'm doing with the car.

You either have yourself a defective tire, the person balancing the tire didn't set the machine up correctly (can't count the times that's happened) or their balancer needs to be recalibrated.

Take it to another shop and ask them to check the balance for you.



Honestly...its been two different shops for the four times they've been balanced.


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[Rockettman]

I replaced OEM Michelins on an E150, mostly driven in town with Goodrich Comml Truck tires.

They were POS, the steering wheel never stopped moving on the Interstate because the sidewalls were flexing so much.



No more cheap tires for me.



I'm not saying the BFGs are the best (I know that many here don't like them - although I did)...
It's just that they NEVER showed any of these problems.
They were just 12 years old, and ironically, I wanted newer/safer tires! Jokes on me!


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[RubberCtyRauder]

Your Kuhmo load rating in the 235-50-18 is 97 or 1609 lbs. the load rating of the Cooper RS3A, and I believe the BFG OEM was the same, is 101 or 1819 lbs. Your sidewalls are too soft for the heavy car is my bet.

[Rockettman]

Your Kuhmo load rating in the 235-50-18 is 97 or 1609 lbs. the load rating of the Cooper RS3A, and I believe the BFG OEM was the same, is 101 or 1819 lbs. Your sidewalls are too soft for the heavy car is my bet.



That very same thought popped into my head too.
Hmm...I wonder.


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[MyBlackBeasts]

Would the Road Force not show a "bad tire"? Would it not show-up as "unbalanceable"?

It is possible to bring an out of round tire in to balance.

When the "balanced" OOR tire is installed the lateral motion of the OOR tire causes the vibration, not an imbalance (think clown car wheel).

1 or both of the tires are defective and you need to hold the mfg responsible.

Others with the same tires may not experience the issue only because theirs came from different production batches than the ones with the problems. I don't have problems with mine is non sequitur - just lucky to have units from a good batch.

Other manufactures have the same issue. The Nitto 555's I put on the front of my MM are **** from the start. Refused to balance. Finally after RFB the vibe is gone but the damage is done. The poor quality causing imbalance issue had enough miles driven to cause tread imperfections. Getting new tires and will throw these on the rear and let the Trilogy have its revenge... :-)

[Bluerauder]

Your Kuhmo load rating in the 235-50-18 is 97 or 1609 lbs. the load rating of the Cooper RS3A, and I believe the BFG OEM was the same, is 101 or 1819 lbs. Your sidewalls are too soft for the heavy car is my bet.


The OEM BFG 235/50/18's fronts are 97W. The OEM BFG 245/55/18's rears are 103W.

[Rockettman]

The OEM BFG 235/50/18's fronts are 97W. The OEM BFG 245/55/18's rears are 103W.



Well...if anything...it'll take 'that' part ^^^ out of the equation.


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[JimP]

See if they'll take them back, even if there is a bit of a loss, you're going to hate driving your car the way it is. I've got pirelli scorpions with 285/50 in the rear, smooth as silk and super quiet. I've also ran Nitto's on a blue that I had and was very pleased with them too.

[Rockettman]

See if they'll take them back, even if there is a bit of a loss, you're going to hate driving your car the way it is. I've got pirelli scorpions with 285/50 in the rear, smooth as silk and super quiet. I've also ran Nitto's on a blue that I had and was very pleased with them too.



I think that'll have to be my next course of action.
I "do" dislike driving it now. And that's not good!
Also after some of the Consumer Report posts there...I don't really want to.

[JustRight]

https://www.consumeraffairs.com/tires/kumho.html

Read the 3rd post at the link. Seems others have the same issue with those tires as you.

I find it interesting the BFG's on consumer affairs website have a 1.4 rating out of five. I've never thought much about consumer affairs' opinions on any product as they are prejudiced according to who is buying ad time.

The multiple stories of people "hitting curbs (all the time) and never had a problem" until Kumho are almost amusing or the overloaded vehicle on very hot pavement.

I'm not saying Kumhos are the greatest thing since apple pie, just that all products these days have their problems. We don't even want to get into the story about my truck's $280 a piece Michelins that came apart.



https://www.consumeraffairs.com/tires/goodrich.html?page=2

[badass mm]

sounds like u have a belt shifted in the tire ?

[Rockettman]

sounds like u have a belt shifted in the tire ?



How do I go about "proving" that to a tire place though?



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[Fastbob]

How do I go about "proving" that to a tire place though?



Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkPretty easy, have them mount and balance them and then take the technician or the manager for a ride and show them what the problem is. Tell them to either fix it or replace the tires.

[Rockettman]

Pretty easy, have them mount and balance them and then take the technician or the manager for a ride and show them what the problem is. Tell them to either fix it or replace the tires.



Yeah, they just RF'd them two days ago (for the second time), so shouldn't be too hard to show them.


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[Fastbob]

Yeah, they just RF'd them two days ago (for the second time), so shouldn't be too hard to show them.


Sent from my iPhone using TapatalkTrying to balance an egg shaped tire it is nearly impossible to remove the vibration cause the shape of the tire is causing the vibration not the balance.

[Rockettman]

Trying to balance an egg shaped tire it is nearly impossible to remove the vibration cause the shape of the tire is causing the vibration not the balance.



Would that not suggest then, that there is nothing wrong with the shape of the tire? (In this case, "my" tires?)
If the machine was able to do it; then it's not egg-shaped. Yes? No?


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[Fastbob]

Tire may be out of round on the machine or at speed. Could be one or both, If the tire was round and just out of balance it would have balanced. I'll bet it is very slightly egg shaped at speed and it doesn't take much for it to vibrate.

[Rockettman]

Tire may be out of round on the machine or at speed. Could be one or both, If the tire was round and just out of balance it would have balanced. I'll bet it is very slightly egg shaped at speed and it doesn't take much for it to vibrate.



Gotcha. Makes sense.


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[MyBlackBeasts]

Would that not suggest then, that there is nothing wrong with the shape of the tire? (In this case, "my" tires?)
If the machine was able to do it; then it's not egg-shaped. Yes? No?


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See post #22.

[Shornaday]

Years ago I bought some Goodyear tires for my 73 Gran Torino Sport. How long ago you ask! Well some of us old timers remember Woolco , plus the car was a new "73". Anyway had a similar situation vibrating over certain speed. I would check the tire and it would get warm, finally noticed it had a small area where there was a raised spot. Took the tire back and they said it was a twisted belt. Not too long after that I had a blowout on the left front. The tire tore the "HE double hockey sticks" out of the fender and wrapped it
self around the A-frame and ball joints. That tire was purchased the same time as the other bad tire. Moral of the story I wouldn't drive much on that tire until you get the problem resolved.

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[Rockettman]

Years ago I bought some Goodyear tires for my 73 Gran Torino Sport. How long ago you ask! Well some of us old timers remember Woolco , plus the car was a new "73". Anyway had a similar situation vibrating over certain speed. I would check the tire and it would get warm, finally noticed it had a small area where there was a raised spot. Took the tire back and they said it was a twisted belt. Not too long after that I had a blowout on the left front. The tire tore the "HE double hockey sticks" out of the fender and wrapped it
self around the A-frame and ball joints. That tire was purchased the same time as the other bad tire. Moral of the story I wouldn't drive much on that tire until you get the problem resolved.

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Thank you on that. Won't take much to convince me of that advice! ^^^


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[Rockettman]

Anyone had experience/advice with "Toyo Extenza HP's"?
That's the other choice that may be available to me. (But also checking on the Cooper RS3A)


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[Fastbob]

I have always liked Toyo tires. For what it is worth, my son likes his Kumhos, but they are not for me. I run Firestones on my Marauder, but I would consider Toyos. Keep in mind that you can get a bad tire no matter what brand you buy. Best of luck with it.

[DrZ]

Nitto Motivo tires

[JustRight]

Anyone had experience/advice with "Toyo Extenza HP's"?
That's the other choice that may be available to me. (But also checking on the Cooper RS3A)


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It doesn't cost them anything to (customer satisfaction) defect the tires, so go back and insist they replace them. If you get a good set, I think you'll be happy. I love mine.

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Did you rotate the wheels from the rear to the front by chance? I have a bad wheel on the beater(lateral bend) that when mounted on the front causes steering to vibrate at similar speeds. Moved it back to the rear, and vibration stops.

[Rockettman]

Did you rotate the wheels from the rear to the front by chance? I have a bad wheel on the beater(lateral bend) that when mounted on the front causes steering to vibrate at similar speeds. Moved it back to the rear, and vibration stops.



Mine are staggered. ('04)
And every time I do this, it's in my garage (home) with a floor jack. Kind of a pain the neck...which is also why I'm wanting to just "get it right".


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[Rockettman]

Ok...so here are my options for the tires (from my tire shop - I have to stay with them now, as they'll replace the Khumo's with something else no charge).

Need your-guys expertise with:
1. Toyo Extenza HP
2. Falken Ziex 950 A/S
3. Cooper Zeon RS3-A

(NOTE: the Toyos won't show up for 4-6, rendering my "summer car" sitting until August! :mad:)

Sorry in advance for the P.I.A. questions...and thank you for the patience with my questions. :beer:

[RubberCtyRauder]

Cooper...had them on my first marauder. liked them in factory sizes

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

Mine are staggered. ('04)
And every time I do this, it's in my garage (home) with a floor jack. Kind of a pain the neck...which is also why I'm wanting to just "get it right".


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The wheels are square, the tires are staggered. Just wondering if a rear wheel made it onto the front.

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[Rockettman]

The wheels are square, the tires are staggered. Just wondering if a rear wheel made it onto the front.

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A rim you mean? It's my belief that the rims are all the same size. ? .


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[Fastbob]

We call them wheels down here. The wheels (rims) are all the same size, it's the tires that are different front to rear.

[Bluerauder]

A rim you mean? It's my belief that the rims are all the same size. ?



The wheels/rims are the same size all around unless you have had the rears widened.



I think what he is trying to say is that maybe during your multiple rebalancing episodes, a front tire or both may have mistakenly been remounted on the rear. This is not likely since the symptoms would be different. It wouldn't show up as a vibration. Rather, it would feel like a loss of power or bucking & jerking during acceleration when you got to about 40-45 MPH due to the Traction Control trying to counter what it thinks is wheel spin. Your vibration shows up at higher speeds.



My suggestion is to dump the Kumhos immediately and go with the Coopers since you can get them reasonably quickly without waiting another 6 or more weeks.



Have the Kumhos checked for belt or tread separation & bulging and fight the battle with Kumho as a separate action to get your money back if possible. Good luck !!

[Rockettman]

The wheels/rims are the same size all around unless you have had the rears widened.

I think what he is trying to say is that maybe during your multiple rebalancing episodes, a front tire or both may have mistakenly been remounted on the rear. This is not likely since the symptoms would be different. It wouldn't show up as a vibration. Rather, it would feel like a loss of power or bucking & jerking during acceleration when you got to about 40-45 MPH. Your vibration shows up at higher speeds.

My suggestion is to dump the Kumhos immediately and go with the Coopers since you can get them reasonably quickly without waiting another 6 or more weeks.

Have the Kumhos checked for belt or tread separation & bulging and fight the battle with Kumho as a separate action to get your money back if possible.

Funny you should mention the front/back wheel situation. Thats what the dealer did by-mistake when I test drove the car years ago. The Traction Control light comes on, and the car "bucks" on acceleration. I knew exactly what was going on (I could clearly see the bigger tires on the front), so I used it to my advantage on price. I said: "I'm not paying that, as I'm gonna have to get all the T.C. fixed!". They dropped the price signifigantly. :banana:

Anyhoo...That's two or three votes on the Coopers so far. :beer: (I do like that they also can be rotated side-to-side when needed).

Oh yeah! Khumho will know my name well, when this is over! lol

[ChiTownMaraud3r]

I'm done with this thread...

[Mr. Man]

Of the 3 choices you have I'd go with the Coopers. Many happy Marauderers out there using them. Just make sure they order the staggered sizes you need correctly.

[GetMeMyStogie]

I asked about that alignment in the past actually.
I can't find a shop that'll do it, because of the time and how much work it involves over just lining up to stick settings. (That's what two places have told me anyway).



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There's a tire shop on Ossington Ave, just north of Queen, probably named Ossington Tire. I've only been there once, but they were happy to apply the specs I gave them. They even provided a detailed before-and-after report of all of the relevant measurements.

[lji372]

I'm done with this thread...

Not do fast young one!!

What kind of oil are you running??

[Rockettman]

There's a tire shop on Ossington Ave, just north of Queen, probably named Ossington Tire. I've only been there once, but they were happy to apply the specs I gave them. They even provided a detailed before-and-after report of all of the relevant measurements.



Thanks so much. I'll check them out shortly. [emoji1360]


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[Rockettman]

Not do fast young one!!



What kind of oil are you running??



^^^ ?


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[MMBLUE]

Not do fast young one!!

What kind of oil are you running??

ROFLMAO


It never gets old :coolman:

[GetMeMyStogie]

Thanks so much. I'll check them out shortly.

Say, where did you go for the Coopers? I ended up going with the Falken Ziex, as the place near me (Queensway & Islington) had a decent deal on them, and don't do Cooper.
Kal Tire offered the Nitto Motivo, but never got back to me about other options.

[Rockettman]

Say, where did you go for the Coopers? I ended up going with the Falken Ziex, as the place near me (Queensway & Islington) had a decent deal on them, and don't do Cooper.

Kal Tire offered the Nitto Motivo, but never got back to me about other options.



I go to Ok tire off Shorncliff (below Dundas); as a relative (twice-removed), is a sales manager there.
Great place. The nicest people. (But my price is a bit better than other places - if you get my drift).

I have to say that I REALLY like the Coopers.

Where on Queensway?




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[Ken]

Years ago I bought some Goodyear tires for my 73 Gran Torino Sport. How long ago you ask! Well some of us old timers remember Woolco , plus the car was a new "73". Anyway had a similar situation vibrating over certain speed. I would check the tire and it would get warm, finally noticed it had a small area where there was a raised spot. Took the tire back and they said it was a twisted belt. Not too long after that I had a blowout on the left front. The tire tore the "HE double hockey sticks" out of the fender and wrapped it
self around the A-frame and ball joints. That tire was purchased the same time as the other bad tire. Moral of the story I wouldn't drive much on that tire until you get the problem resolved.

Sent from my XT1080 using TapatalkI remember the Firestone tires were notorious for having shifted belt issues in that era (early 70's). My Dad's 70 Torino or 72 LTD had that issue, was just before I started driving.

[Fastbob]

I remember the Firestone tires were notorious for having shifted belt issues in that era (early 70's). My Dad's 70 Torino or 72 LTD had that issue, was just before I started driving.Those were Firestone 500 tires. Got a free set due to bad tires on my then new 1975 Mercury Montego. Firestone make much better tires today.

[Bluerauder]

Those were Firestone 500 tires. Got a free set due to bad tires on my then new 1975 Mercury Montego. Firestone make much better tires today.


Yep, I got caught by the Firestone 500 debacle on my 1974 Dodge Charger SE.

[GordonB]

Another thing you could try is swap the tires front to rear -- counterintuitive, but might isolate the front end wobble/shimmy.

Can also take BOTH front tires and rotate the tires 90 degrees on the rims/wheels and re-balance. Tire shop will probably understand, but won't be thrilled.

I had a problem with '04 DTR with winter tires. Around 70 got a front end vibe -- rebalanced both front tires. Still had trouble. Removed and re-installed summer setup and problem disappeared.

[Rockettman]

Thanks to all of you for your help and advice.
(That's why I still come here!)
I got the Coopers, and dumped the Khumhos.
Cheers to all of you. [emoji482]


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[sailsmen]

Yep, I got caught by the Firestone 500 debacle on my 1974 Dodge Charger SE.

Over the past year I have bought 2 sets for 2 different car from Firestone, i.e. Bridgestone, and I plan on my next set for the MM also from Firestone.:D

[1Marauder]

Thanks to all of you for your help and advice.
(That's why I still come here!)
I got the Coopers, and dumped the Khumhos.
Cheers to all of you. [emoji482]


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Did this completely solve the problem?

[ByronRACE]

Also jack the car up so the tire is off the ground and spin it by hand. Check for runout/wobble. I've seen really silly stuff like tape weight residue stuck to the back side of the wheel at the mating flange and keeping the wheel from sitting flat on the hub. Looks fine on the balance machine. Wobbles on the car.

[Rockettman]

Did this completely solve the problem?



Yes sir, it did. [emoji1360]


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