SCT PRO: chip versus flasher?

[TripleTransAm]

After a bit of reading around, I have the following question regarding the choice between chip or flasher?

I suppose the flasher makes it easier and cleaner to swap programs (no chip to install in the hard-to-reach PCM, no contacts to polish clean, no evidence of tampering, etc.). But I understand there is a time detriment... I think I read something about it taking 15 minutes to flash a new software?

The chip, as I understand it, allows for 4 separate programs to be installed simultaneously? Switchable by a small switch? I understand burning these chips is a cinch and is rather blinding quick, but by the same token one would have to disassemble a whole bunch of stuff to get at the PCM to take out the chip everytime a new burn was required, no?

So there lies my dilemma... chip or flasher?



Side note:
As I understand it, the flasher keeps a copy of the factory calibrations once it downloads a new program. Is this accessible via the tuning software after this initial downloading? I ask this for 2 reasons:
1) I would like to keep a backup copy of my factory calibrations just in case
2) I would like to use my factory calibrations as a starting point for some minor tweaks I would like to make.

By the same token... is a factory CRD1 calibration file readily available in absolute 100% stock factory condition that I could alternately use as a starting point for my own tweaks?


Any other description on operational characteristics would be appreciated... ie. how long it takes to charge the flasher with a program before connecting it to the car, how sturdy is the flasher, how is it powered and can it mangle a PCM if there's a power loss to the unit, etc.... Same with the chip: how can you toggle between them and what precautions are required when doing this, etc.

Lots of questions, eh? Kind of reminds you of my first post back in January 2003, I guess...

[Zack]

One of the main benefits of a chip is the ease of program changes, especially at the track when switching shift points and race gas files.
The main advantage of flashing your computer is this:
You have $10,000 invested in a motor and other mods, a corvette pulls up next to you at a light.
The race is on, you (Marauder) are winning of course, then you hit a bump.
The chip rattles loose, leaving you with stock programming.
Chances are you just destroyed your motor, especially at WOT.
I prefer the flash!

[SergntMac]

Just reserving a spot to reply tomorrow...Watch for more?

[Glenn]

There are some misconceptions over a PCM flash (not including the chip as a true "flash"). Yes, a Tuner flashes a PCM, but at what cost $400 - $500 for a Tuner depending on who you buy it from with what various extra programs that may or may not be very good??? Are you really going to use the Tuner to adjust your PCM - be honest, few really will to justify the cost. How flexible is the Tuner to even change the programs??? Of course you know a Tuner can ONLY be used on one VIN car and no others or it will "lock up". Do you really want to work on your PCM with any associated programming risks? Alot of specific unanswered questions for the most part concerning Tuners. But the Tuner is apparently the wave of the future and way to make money and is being marketed as such.

Is the chip any better. Yes, as nicely stated above, but the installation can be a problem. Also, as Mac has said the chip really has no future with the PCM port disappearing in 2005.

Personally and I will strongly stress personally because I am a voice of one, I will still state that a dyno flash tune will give your MM more performance and power than a Tuner. PCM Dyno flash tune is a PC laptop unit with a PCM/interface unit used in conjunction with a dyno. The cost is also high, but less than a Tuner. Why, because Jerry W. is the father of most of the MM PCM Tuner programs and he can tailor the car to your personal driving habits. But, he is regretably not readily available to perform a Dyno flash tune and yes the only feasible alternative is the Tuner. The only other person that can duplicate Jerry's capability is I believe Dennis R.

So when you say flash the PCM there are two flashes - a Tuner and a Dyno Tune flash. They are different. If you are really interested in programming your PCM yourself than the Tuner is for you. Personally, I hope someone will influence Jerry to come to Atlanta soon so I can get another Dyno tune flash. Just my personal thoughts.

Glenn

[sailsmen]

Once a PCM has had a chip swapping them out is a cinch. I ran 3 different chips at the track and had no problem switching them out. I use a quality electircal tape to keep it frimly in place.

[tmac1337]

I ordered a SCT Flash Tuner from Dennis although it has not arrived yet. I plan on consulting with him until my program is what I want it to be. I can call him, he can make an adjustment to a program and email me the new one which I will download to the tuner, to the car. At least that is how I hope it's going to go. Right now I am running a Diablo chip. I do not know if the old program compares to the ones available today. I know that I have made a lot of modifications to my car and I want to maximize the performance. My car at the moment seems to shift all over the place, who know's what it is thinking. I plan on experimenting with TQ lock-up disabling. I also do not want to worry about a chip rattling around. If I have to, I'll end up ordering the Pro-Racer program myself and try a few combinations. Hopefully I will not have to.

[studio460]

Lots of questions, eh?
Triple-T:

Well, Triple-T, after the millions of posts where you generously shared useful and knowledgable advice and information with me, I FINALLY can return the favor . . .

SCT 9100 "ProRacer" programmable PCM-flasher w/SCT tuning software:

Pros:
1. The MOST powerful software you can buy for your car.
2. You can modify EVERYTHING with values of up to 0.0001-resolution precision.
3. 9100 holds any three custom files you choose to load from your PC in its own non-volatile memory.
4. Software writes files from your PC's serial port to the 9100 in about a minute or two [actual elapsed time will be corrected soon].
5. Writing files from 9100 to PCM takes about five minutes [actual elapsed time will be corrected soon].
6. It's REAL easy to plug the unit into the diagnostic port under your dash.
7. On my request, SCT e-mailed me an honest-to-goodness, factory-default CRD1 file. I can go back to stock ANYTIME in a few minutes.
8. The 9100 needs no external power to operate in the vehicle.
9. Ford will PROBABLY never know you ever did anything to your PCM if something BAD happens to your engine--you'll simply reflash it back to stock before the tow truck comes!
Cons:
1. Fairly expensive at about $800.
2. Software is very cryptic, and in-program documentation is often too generic and technical to be helpful for your specific objective.
3. Learning curve is STEEP.

By the way, I think the SCT 9100 COMPLEMENTS a dynotune. I had a Jerry dynotune and have EVERY .zcf file from the Jerry tune (thanks to David at SCT) now on my own hard disk. I can choose any three of those to be in the tuner at any given time. Between the dynotune files, some stock SCT files, and the files I've modified myself, I have over 20 .zcf files on my hard disk that I can play with (varying spark tables, shift schedules, tire sizes, axle ratios, torque converter lock-up schedules, etc.). In fact, I would HIGHLY recommend a Jerry dynotune FIRST, then use THAT file as your "baseline" to play with. I honestly can't think of a single reason (except, I guess, the potential loss-of-power-during-flash issue) where you would want the "chip-burner" version over the "flasher" version--the flasher version is simply far more convenient.

[SergntMac]

LOL...it's a hoot to think about the development ground we all have covered in just one year!

IMHO, the hand held tuner is the only way to go. Chips are problematic, and while they were a good place to start way back when, their days are passing. We forget about our time spent in ordering a chip, or, getting an upgrade to that when we change yet another mod, or, the chip just stopped working.

While the hand held tuner seems a larger investment out front, the savings in down time come back to you. New "blank" tuners are available for about the same cost as a chip, and you'll get decent improvements for your money from the vastly improved base settings. Remember, a lot of the programming that is now considered base, was built on our early experiences with Jerry tuning the MM. The first chips ever were generic tuning methods, but not built from real world MM experience. The hand held base tuning of today has a lot of our MMs in that blend.

The more expensive hand helds are offered because vendors are adding their own custom programs to the tuner, and they are charging for that additional programming. Why not? They earned it. But, remember you're buying two products here, a hand held and a pro tuner's intellectual property, and it's why some prices are quoted higher.

TTA, you do ask about programming delays, and IMHO, these times are overstated. Granted, you cannot change programs as easy as flipping a switch, however, it takes no longer to flash the EEC with a tuner, than it takes to flash a chip with a burner. I've made a half dozen corrections to small things in my EEC, and 15 minutes is a gross exaggeration of the real time experience.

Overnight, I timed the process, starting at connecting to the OBDII port, and ending when I could start the engine. 8 minutes, 45 seconds. This should be about the same time frame for loading your stuff into the hand held from a PC. Agreed, this isn't switching on the fly, but how does it compare to sending your chip back for correction due to a gear change? And let's not forget the tuner's ability to run diagnostics and report codes.

IMHO...Chips served us well, but their time has passed.

[MikesMerc]

It all boils down to whether or not you want to be "tinkering" around with your programming. It's that simple.

For ease of use, the chip is the winner. Having 4 programs on one chip that can be activated by a simple toggle switch can not be beat for easy on the fly changes.

My 4 choices for example:

Daily tune: Lottsa power, but very reliable. Safety over power. Nice crisp shifting but not too aggressive.

Performance Tune: Max power on pump gas when you are sure you have good premium in there. Nice firm shifts. A perfect setting for the dragstrip or when you "run into" someone on the street and you want your best.

Race Gas Tune: Max power period. For the strip or street as long as you're running unleaded 104. On a cool summer night with race gas in the tank, this is the killer setting.

Valet: No one likes to ever hand over their keys, but sometimes it happens. Valet mode can be set any way you want. I prefer max speed of 55mph, max rpm in park or nuetral at 2500rpm, max rpm at in any gear 4000rpm.

All modes available at the "flick of switch". No waiting to download anything. The guy next to you at the light isn't gonna wait:)

On the other hand, if you want to tweak you applications to the cows come home, then the tuner is the way to go. You'll sacrifice on the fly adjusments, but you'll have infinite adjustability.

I've seen very few problems with chips and have been around them for years. They have improved with time and are fairly "idiot proof" now. If your chip "comes loose" then you didn't mount it right and secure it properly. Of course that's just my opinion.

It's all about what you want more than what "technology" is better.

Edit- BTW, for most folks, making adjustments for "future mods" isn't gonna be as simple as it sounds with the tuner either. How many of you guys know exactly what to change in the program after any given mod? Some of you...sure. But most will have to call someone to have the program tweaked and emailed to them. Simpler than shipping a chip for sure, but not exactly "on the fly" either.

One last, and critical point. Making any significant changes in the program without the benefit of a dyno is kind of pointless anyway. Aside from switching shift points and minor stuff, any significant power tuning should be done on a dyno anyway. Once your on the dyno (of a good tune shop) flashing a chip is just as easy as downloading the new settings. Not to mention having all your chip programs updated and available on the fly again.

In the end, though, the chip is dead along with the port anyway. Perhaps the tuner has a longer investment life? That's a good point too.

[metroplex]

I don't like the new 4-position chip since it has no conformal coating to prevent any shorts from possible environmental intrusions (moisture, etc...) and since there's no easy way to mount that switch. A friend had to use nylon zip-ties to get it to mount properly.

In addition, each time you have to reburn the chip, you gotta dig it out behind the under-dash cover.

I bought my Flasher PRP for $805 shipped from Modular Depot. I have zero regrets about not going with the chip... the Flasher flashes the EEC, so unless the EEC fails, your tune is good to go. Plus I don't have another piece of electronic equipment to worry about falling off or possibly failing (Murphy's Law).

I've had to do a number of small changes to the base tune and if I had a chip, it would have been a PITA to dig around under the car.

The only con to the flasher is that it takes 4 minutes to flash the EEC. It only takes about 50 seconds (with the earlier Advantage software, about 1 min+ for the latest) to program the flasher.

[TripleTransAm]

Thanks to all for the feedback. I will be letting this all sink in over the next short while, then I'll be making a decision. Of course, the dollars and cents all have to be present and accounted for, so that will also influence the timeframe in which I can get my grubby little hands on this item.

Also, thanks a bunch for the detailed feedback, NBC Shooter. It's that kind of detail that I usually fish for before I decide on anything major, and I think I'll be calling on you again to provide some more insight on this package before AND after I become a user. As we mentioned back during the Cole Performance tuner fiasco, we Marauder owners usually tend to be a bit more analysing when it comes to such undertakings, and we're more likely to ask direct questions regarding any product.

I still think we could use an tuning-specific forum... ;)

[metroplex]

I still think we could use an tuning-specific forum... ;)

There's already a tuning specific forum, just not on this board.

[studio460]

There's already a tuning specific forum, just not on this board.Uhhh . . . yeah, but unless I'm missing something, there are ZERO posts in the modulardepot.com "Technical Support for Current Users" SCT forum! All current posts have been relegated to the "pre-order questions" forum which have very little specific information on tuning--its posts primarily consist of pre-sales product information questions. I can only guess that the tech support posts were too numerous/complicated to deal with for the vendor?

[MikesMerc]

I don't like the new 4-position chip since it has no conformal coating to prevent any shorts from possible environmental intrusions (moisture, etc...) Ummm....okay. A million to one possibility I guess. Never ever seen or heard of this happening over the last 10 years but I guess anything is possible.

since there's no easy way to mount that switch

says who? Mine is mounted just fine thank you very much. Mounted right into the lower dash out of the way.

A friend had to use nylon zip-ties to get it to mount properly User error.

In addition, each time you have to reburn the chip, you gotta dig it out behind the under-dash cover. Can I "dig" my chip out in about 4 minutes. Prolly less time than it takes to flash the PCM.

Plus I don't have another piece of electronic equipment to worry about falling off shoddy installation of the chip is the only risk. Done right there is no reason to be concerned.

I've had to do a number of small changes to the base tune and if I had a chip, it would have been a PITA to dig around under the car. The pain would not be getting to the chip, its easy in the Maurader. Getting the chip flashed would be the hard part in my opinion.

Again, tunes should be done on the dyno anyway.

If you aren't going to tinker around with settings the SCT Tuner wihout the benefit of dyno access, its nothing but extra expense IMOHO.

Not to nit pick here, but it sounds like you have exagerrated the "problems" with a chip.

Again, it all boild down to what you want to do with your car. If all you plan on doing is using someone's program and then have it changed whenever a significant mod is made, then I have yet to see the great benefit. The real benefits I see to the tuner, are that it is not intrusive (for warranty protection), and it *might* be future proof to some extent.

[junehhan]

Regardless of what some of the downsides to the tuner are, i'm simply sold it for the fact that you no longer need to molest your computer box. Even if a chip is faster, i'd rather leave the ECM box alone in case some service department at some dealer decides to get nosy one day.

[TripleTransAm]

Can I "dig" my chip out in about 4 minutes. Prolly less time than it takes to flash the PCM.


Here's something to consider... how often can one remove and re-insert the chip before the connector and/or contacts get worn enough to:
a) result in an intermittent loss-of-connection to a pin
b) become loose enough to possibly dislodge itself?

Has anyone noticed a decrease in connection reliability over a multitude of chip removal and re-insertions?

[MikesMerc]

Never experienced it, nor heard of it. Goldfinger connections rarely wear. I suppose there would indeed be a finite number of times before some degradation took place. Only guessing, but I'd think at least a few hundred times or more for that to happen. I've worked on a lot of electonics over the years, and I've never seen goldfinger connections wear out. But anything is possible I guess.

[HookedOnCV]

Uhhh . . . yeah, but unless I'm missing something, there are ZERO posts in the modulardepot.com "Technical Support for Current Users" SCT forum! All current posts have been relegated to the "pre-order questions" forum which have very little specific information on tuning--its posts primarily consist of pre-sales product information questions. I can only guess that the tech support posts were too numerous/complicated to deal with for the vendor?

WTF are you talking about? If you go to MD's site and look at the statistics, there are 5700 posts in 650 threads. There are all kinds of Q&A from users, SCT tuners and SCT staff.

Are you looking here? (http://forums.modulardepot.com/forumdisplay.php?s=&forumid=32)

You do need to be registered and logged into the site, and MD only allows users who have purchased the SCT Pro Racer package to get into the forum. PM Ken or someone at MD about getting access if you bought the package already.

SCT has been great about supporting their product on the web, and by phone. I don't think I have seen ANY complaints yet.

I went the flasher route from them, and have been very happy so far. Yes it takes 4-5 minutes to load one of the 3 custom tunes stored in the flasher into your EEC, but nobody except you knows its there.

My 14 year old will be driving soon (learner's permit at age 15), and although it's not as conveinient as flipping a switch for a valet type setting, she won't be able to change it to a "fast" setting if she were to discover a switch because there isn't any. :)

Todd

[Dennis Reinhart]

The difference between the chip and a flash as far as programing goes is NONE, the advantage of the new SCT multichip is simple the ease of up to four separate programs with the ease of a rotary switch, the draw back to the chip is it can fail, the contacts can become oxidized, causing connect failures and it can void the warranty. The programer is nice it does take about five minutes initially to save and erase the stock tuning and load any one of three files after the stock read is saved, it does not take that long to upload a new file, after the programer has saved the stock file. With the optional cable which the cost has now gone down any SCT dealer can send any of his customers an updated file over the Internet, I do this for FREE for my customers, So I prefer the SCT tuner if the multi chip is installed properly and taped in I feel they are just as good, its what ever you would like, as a customer to get a upgrade on the chip you have to remove it and send it back that is why I like the tuner.

[TripleTransAm]

Thanks for providing your point of view on this matter, Dennis.

[ap2003]

Never experienced it, nor heard of it. Goldfinger connections rarely wear. I suppose there would indeed be a finite number of times before some degradation took place. Only guessing, but I'd think at least a few hundred times or more for that to happen. I've worked on a lot of electonics over the years, and I've never seen goldfinger connections wear out. But anything is possible I guess.
Finally, a question that I can help with... :banana: Unfortunately, being quiet for sooo long has built up a lot of words in my keyboard and they all went to the screen in this email... translation: LONG post :alone: .

I work for a connector company...
Here are some thoughts on gold contact interface wear...

The amount of cycles is directly related to:
* Force of the mating contact
* plating thickness
* under plate (yes, there is a plaging under the gold, typical nickel)
* The quality of the plating
*And about 20 other things if we really want to get into it)

First, Why is gold use in the first place....
Gold is a "noble metal".. i.e. it does not mix with oxygen ( for example, iron + oxygen = iron-oxide, or more commonly known as rust). The vibration as your car is driving down the street and the thermal cycles cause by the seasons causes the contacts to move. Each movement exposes a new surface to oxygen. As gold does not "rust", there is not any issue.

If the contact interface was not gold... let's say ... copper... nickel... iron... other???
The metal would oxidize (rust), then, with every movement, the contact would plow through the oxide, as designed, to make a new contact... Think of this like driving you Marauder over your snowy driveway.. once, twice, three, four, 50 times (Sorry if this example doesn't hold up for our members in the warmer climates).. eventually, the snow will build up in some areas... and be "clear" in others... Now, relate those built up areas to the oxide build up in the contact sytems... This would not be a big deal, except that oxides are not nearly as conductive as the original metal. So, when the contact is riding up on the oxides (the contact can only plow away so much) eventually, you will have an open circuit.

Contact specifications...
In _most_ instances, if the correct contact force is used, an "edgecard" plated interface like the one in the ECM on our Marauders is designed to last about 25 to 50 cycles. (Side Note: Edgecard contacts and pin to pin contacts are different wrt wear cycles).

This DOES NOT mean that the contact will fail after 25 cycles... What it means is that by 50 cycles, you have worn thru through the gold plating... and maybe the uderplating. When you are worn through, the based metal (copper) is exposed. If the base metal (actually, this starts to occur with the underplating to some degree) is exposed, then you have just accelerated :burnout: the the corrosion process.

The vibration as your car is driving down the street and the thermal cycles cause by the seasons further accelerate the problem. In the end, the oxides start building until eventually there is enough oxide such that the circuit relying on the connection has too much resistance to work.

Finally, relate this background to the original question...
Now, knowing the above, let's step back and look at the original process used to get the chip installed... I have read about people using steel wool or "scrubbies" to remove the conformal coating :depress: ... This process is for sure to scape off some of the gold... and depending on diligence... mabe even get into the underplating. This will definitely reduce the number of mating cycles to less the original design target.

End analysis...
FoMoCo, probably doesn't intent for this port to be used in service (right?). As such, they probably do not over spec the gold plating... so my guess is that 50 cycles will be their maximum target. Further the conformal coating removal process probably removes about 10 cycles... Therefore, you probably have between 15 to 40 cycles before you have accelerated the oxidation process.... After you have accelerated the oxidation process, assuming 15,000 per year, my guess is that you will have intermittent contacts (i.e. perceived, which are actually contact failures, chip failures in 3 to 5 years... AFTER 15 to 40 chip cycles are done)

How do I fix this???...
There are a couple POTENTIAL options... probably best saved for another email thread... Let me know if you are interested...

ap

[metroplex]

it takes 50-70 seconds to program the Flasher unit, then it takes 4 minutes to flash the EEC.

IMHO, for the safest approach, go with the Flasher (N/A and supercharged apps). If you're going to juice your car, the chip is going to be your better choice but I'm not too impressed with the chip design and coupled with AP's observations about the contacts I know I picked the right choice in my situation. :o

[studio460]

Finally, a question that I can help with . . .
Jeez, AP! Now THAT's a thorough answer! Nice post!

[schuvwj]

If you were setting at a stoplight and there's an opportunity for a kill in the other lane but you don't have the correct program to put him down.

Would you:
1) Pull over and wait 5 minutes to load the best program?
2) Turn a switch on your dash and dust him?

I think #2 would be my answer.

Maybe having both chip and flasher is the best of both worlds!

[BruteForce]

If you were setting at a stoplight and there's an opportunity for a kill in the other lane but you don't have the correct program to put him down.

Would you:
1) Pull over and wait 5 minutes to load the best program?
2) Turn a switch on your dash and dust him?

I think #2 would be my answer.

Maybe having both chip and flasher is the best of both worlds!

I opt for #3. Always have the best program loaded. Much like a gunfight, you need to be "cocked and locked" at all times if you expect to carry the day.

[Fourth Horseman]

The chip/tuner decision was an easy one for me: the tuner allows me to flash back to stock so the dealer never knows. I'm poor enough that protecting my warranty is a big deal.