Torque converters for dummies.

[Mr. Man]

Been a lot of discussion about torque converters. While I understood the general gist of the discussions I certainly was easily lost. I did a little research and found this guy. Gives a easy to understand explanation and fan demonstration of how it all works.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTfipsejqS0 (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=pTfipsejqS0)
One thing I have never heard discussed here is the camshaft output number as is discussed in most of the videos I watched. What is the camshaft output number for the Marauder? My guess is when the Marauder comes alive feeling, around 3000 rpms, but I'm just guessing. If not, how do you find out what it is?

Hope this helps those of you who are not overly mechanical, but want to understand what the torque converter does. :)

[RF Overlord]

I've always liked EricTheCarGuy's videos...

[Turbov6Bryan]

Taking Fluid dynamics and converting into mechanical dynamics

Basically the converter and trans are a hydrostatic pump

Where as a clutch style is all mechanical :)

[jaywish]

Thanks for the link

[sailsmen]

It's the band of the slingshot.

The higher the stall the further back the band is pulled.

[JBeezy]

That was a good video.

Sent from my SAMSUNG-SM-G935A using Tapatalk

[Mr. Man]

Does anyone know what he means by camshaft matching the converter?

[stevengerard]

there are a few items that go into matching the cam to TC. One is the power range of the cam. If the cam has a range of 1500 - 5000rpm one would want the TC to come in around 2000 rpm. The duration and lift also affect the TC. I am not familiar enough with it to add anymore clarity but the cam specs, rear end ratio along with weight of car all influence TC choice.

[ctrlraven]

Cars with electronically controlled transmissions, the tuning of the TC is essential to get the most out of it.

[Turbov6Bryan]

Cars with electronically controlled transmissions, the tuning of the TC is essential to get the most out of it.

Please explain that,..

[Mr. Man]

there are a few items that go into matching the cam to TC. One is the power range of the cam. If the cam has a range of 1500 - 5000rpm one would want the TC to come in around 2000 rpm. The duration and lift also affect the TC. I am not familiar enough with it to add anymore clarity but the cam specs, rear end ratio along with weight of car all influence TC choice.
Does anyone know this information or where to find it> Perhaps in the shop manual?

[RF Overlord]

Shop manual doesn't say squat.

[Mr. Man]

I'll ask Ford next time I'm over there.

[RF Overlord]

I bet the dealer will know even less...

[ctrlraven]

Please explain that,..
Read your heart out.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73276

[Turbov6Bryan]

If your asking"what is the camshaft output number" maybe I can help you out


Camshafts, let's just go with any normal vehicle that only has 1 camshaft

Say like a 2012 challenger or old BBC Chevy.

There is a "limit" of power range from the cam, say 1500-5200 for max torque in the 1972 RV with a BBC. It would be advertised as 206 /206 duration at .50 DC #1 with 112 lsa with a combined lift per valve of .426-.440 Just letting you know that's less than 1/2 of a inch is all that each valve is opened at any given point.

Lobe separation, the higher the number = more vacuum so you can have vacuum for your brakes.

You would want a TIGHT 1800 rpm converter, the converter "slips" to only 1800 rpm at wide open throttle before it starts to not slip, called converter coupling... that is the measurement of when the converter stops slipping and gets you down the road. Any lockup style converter will have a much higher INEFFICIENCY at WOT while unlocked vs any nonlockup converter putting power to the pavement. The only time a lockup will match converter slip of any non lock is when the converter is in the locked position and that's usually at 100+ mph

So take that 2012 challenger or BBC and install a high performance cam, say a big one like 236/236 at .050 with gross lift at .727 ( umm yes more than 1/2 inch). Lsa would be diminished due to the separation between each lobe, say it's spread out farther... lsa would be 105 and vacuum brakes officially suck at this point
Now that cams identification tag says it only makes usable power between 3500 and 7200 This is where your cam to converter comes into play...
The BBC would be a pooch with a 1800 rpm stall, * (enter dohc 4.6. I'll bring it back up in a minute) You would floor it and barely have much power until the cams power range came into effect, floored coming up to 3500, your starting to make good power and once 4500 is there it really starts making more power all the way to redline
That latest cam to converter # stall speed would be 3500-3800 or as big as you want it to be as long as the shifts only drop 1000 rpm for ideal converter slip percentages
So if you look at a dyno graph of a car making power to the rear wheels, you will see the torque coming in (that's what moves the car out off the starting line) the hp is what carries the car across the finish line

On the dyno sheet, if the engine doesn't start making decent power until 3500, then there is no reason to run a 2500 stall. You will experience a major LAG in performance.. this can be masked by installing a smaller gearset as quite a bunch of guys go straight to 4:11
So the DOHC 4.6 has 4 cams, total lift is way less than a single cam car, it makes up for it having more of everything..
Say that BBC had .426 lift for one valve per cyl. And our cars had 1/2 because we have twice as many valves per cyl ( 2 vs 1) per intake and exhaust bringing it to .213 lift per valve.
2 valves outperform 1 in any head with total lift being the same
4 valve outperform 2 in any head ^^^^ same

So... stall speed choice... look at a stock marauder dyno sheet, or go out and floor the car and when the car starts coming alive look at the tach :)

[Turbov6Bryan]

Read your heart out.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73276

I was asking you to explain it :) How do you "tune a torque converter?

Are you just talking about lock up speed?

[Mr. Man]

I bet the dealer will know even less...Your right they looked at me like I was from planet Zordon. I did get they cam part numbers and will hunt around to see if there is any info on the net.


Read your heart out.
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=73276
Read this info twice and sort of understand what is going on but would be afraid to try any of this w/o help from an expert. Thanks for reposting it Chris. I'll read it a few more times. Good info.

I think I like the idea of being unlocked in 1st for putzing in traffic. For my needs I might lock in 2nd at higher RPM's or speed (WOT?) and staying unlocked for putzing in slow traffic . Lock up in 3rd at some speed/RPM and WOT and remaining locked into 4th with the 3 second coast parameter sounds pretty good. This just being a general consensus on my part on what as I understand it would work for my style of driving.

Still need to determine which converter is best matched to the stock cams. I'm thinking the 2800 to 3200 range.

[Mr. Man]

If your asking"what is the camshaft output number" maybe I can help you out


Camshafts, let's just go with any normal vehicle that only has 1 camshaft

Say like a 2012 challenger or old BBC Chevy.

There is a "limit" of power range from the cam, say 1500-5200 for max torque in the 1972 RV with a BBC. It would be advertised as 206 /206 duration at .50 DC #1 with 112 lsa with a combined lift per valve of .426-.440 Just letting you know that's less than 1/2 of a inch is all that each valve is opened at any given point.

Lobe separation, the higher the number = more vacuum so you can have vacuum for your brakes.

You would want a TIGHT 1800 rpm converter, the converter "slips" to only 1800 rpm at wide open throttle before it starts to not slip, called converter coupling... that is the measurement of when the converter stops slipping and gets you down the road. Any lockup style converter will have a much higher INEFFICIENCY at WOT while unlocked vs any nonlockup converter putting power to the pavement. The only time a lockup will match converter slip of any non lock is when the converter is in the locked position and that's usually at 100+ mph

So take that 2012 challenger or BBC and install a high performance cam, say a big one like 236/236 at .050 with gross lift at .727 ( umm yes more than 1/2 inch). Lsa would be diminished due to the separation between each lobe, say it's spread out farther... lsa would be 105 and vacuum brakes officially suck at this point
Now that cams identification tag says it only makes usable power between 3500 and 7200 This is where your cam to converter comes into play...
The BBC would be a pooch with a 1800 rpm stall, * (enter dohc 4.6. I'll bring it back up in a minute) You would floor it and barely have much power until the cams power range came into effect, floored coming up to 3500, your starting to make good power and once 4500 is there it really starts making more power all the way to redline
That latest cam to converter # stall speed would be 3500-3800 or as big as you want it to be as long as the shifts only drop 1000 rpm for ideal converter slip percentages
So if you look at a dyno graph of a car making power to the rear wheels, you will see the torque coming in (that's what moves the car out off the starting line) the hp is what carries the car across the finish line

On the dyno sheet, if the engine doesn't start making decent power until 3500, then there is no reason to run a 2500 stall. You will experience a major LAG in performance.. this can be masked by installing a smaller gearset as quite a bunch of guys go straight to 4:11
So the DOHC 4.6 has 4 cams, total lift is way less than a single cam car, it makes up for it having more of everything..
Say that BBC had .426 lift for one valve per cyl. And our cars had 1/2 because we have twice as many valves per cyl ( 2 vs 1) per intake and exhaust bringing it to .213 lift per valve.
2 valves outperform 1 in any head with total lift being the same
4 valve outperform 2 in any head ^^^^ same

So... stall speed choice... look at a stock marauder dyno sheet, or go out and floor the car and when the car starts coming alive look at the tach :)Thanks, you posted this while I was typing. Based on your mash the pedal and wait for the MM to freight train I was correct in the 3000 rpmish range. So a stock set of cams and a 3000 stall converter would match each other fairly well, assuming I'm grasping any of this info. Then getting the settings for the converter lock up schedule as described by Joe Boomz would make the car most usable to the individuals taste.

[Mr. Man]

Ford factory OEM Cam Specs. Camshaft Lift: 392”/ 390” Duration at 50: 232”/236”


Intake:

LH: YL7Z6250BA
RH: YL7Z6250AA

For the Exhaust:

LH: YF3Z6250DA
RH: YF3Z6250AA

Sgt Mac was looking for this info back in '06 and based on the threads I read in the Google this seems to be the consensus of the Marauder specs. Cobra, Mach1 Aviator specs may or may not be the same. Seems like the cams were also used in a variety of 5.4l engines as well. Lots of vagueness out there.

[Turbov6Bryan]

Thanks, you posted this while I was typing. Based on your mash the pedal and wait for the MM to freight train I was correct in the 3000 rpmish range. So a stock set of cams and a 3000 stall converter would match each other fairly well, assuming I'm grasping any of this info. Then getting the settings for the converter lock up schedule as described by Joe Boomz would make the car most usable to the individuals taste.

Well, I can tell you this from driving, racing and owning many cars with lockup converters
My opinion.

No need to lock up the converter in second unless your racing it, remember that laggy sluggish feeling when it was stock? Your not going to gain anything by locking it around town, all you will do is pre wear your lockup clutch inside the converter. It is meant to be locked at highway speeds for fuel economy. If you lock it at wot, it will drop your et by .2 maybe.

Locking it up near 1000 rpm before a WOT shift, or locking at 4th for fuel economy won't hurt it if you don't abuse it.

If you have it lock at part throttle in second gear, try getting on the freeway, it'll be a slug and that load on the clutch at low rpm with a 4000+ lead sled, not good

Next we will hear how much you hate the converter because the trans is locking and unlocking so much

Pop the converter in and do away with your lock up shenanigans in different gears.

Google 10 1/4 lock up clutch. You will burn it up believe me :)

[Turbov6Bryan]

Ford factory OEM Cam Specs. Camshaft Lift: 392”/ 390” Duration at 50: 232”/236”
Intake:
LH: YL7Z6250BA
RH: YL7Z6250AA
For the Exhaust:
LH: YF3Z6250DA
RH: YF3Z6250AA

Sgt ere.

Mach 1, 03/04 Cobra, Aviator, Marauder, Navigator

Intake Camshaft RH-(YF3E 6A270 AB)
LH-(YF3E 6A271 AB)
Intake: 184 deg @ .050/.394 lift

Exhaust Camshaft RH-(YF3E 6A272 BB)
LH-(YF3E 6A273 BB)
Exhaust: 196 deg @ .050/.397 lift

All 03 up have the same cam profile, not sure if these are the actual part number, but that's how it's supposed to be written out

[stevengerard]

nothing about the RPM range though?

[Mr. Man]

Mach 1, 03/04 Cobra, Aviator, Marauder, Navigator, Continental, Mark8:

Intake Camshaft RH-(YF3E 6A270 AB)
LH-(YF3E 6A271 AB)
Intake: 184 deg @ .050/.394 lift

Exhaust Camshaft RH-(YF3E 6A272 BB)
LH-(YF3E 6A273 BB)
Exhaust: 196 deg @ .050/.397 lift
The part numbers I posted were straight from Ford. I did see the numbers you posted while searching on Google and those numbers were also discussed back in '06 by Mac and the others. Not so sure your numbers are correct.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-26650.html

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/100949-46l-ford-dohc-modular-motor-in-my-240z/page-4

[Turbov6Bryan]

The part numbers I posted were straight from Ford. I did see the numbers you posted while searching on Google and those numbers were also discussed back in '06 by Mac and the others. Not so sure your numbers are correct.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/archive/index.php/t-26650.html

http://forums.hybridz.org/topic/100949-46l-ford-dohc-modular-motor-in-my-240z/page-4

That's what I thought, so I had edited it. But then again, numbers do change time to time
Ps. You wrote 392" / 392 inches?? Wrong :)