Infamous engine miss (coils-r-us), extension

[racorcey]

Hey guys, it's been a while since I've been on the forum. What with the press of biz and life, I really kind of miss having the time to read all the good stuff regarding our MMs.

Now on to the good stuff...

First - my '04 just turned 178k miles.

Next - here's the problem I've run into recently...

I know it's not uncommon to have replace ignition coils that go bad on our cars. Mine still has 2 or 3 OEM coils in it, believe it or not. I always keep a spare around for replacement. It's never IF it will fail, but when. The first 3 failed around 75k miles. Ever since then, I get a bad one about 15k or so miles.

Just 2 weeks ago, I had another one go (Cyl 1), and it was already a replacement coil. Lucky for Limited Lifetime Warranty on this version.

Then, just last week, another OEM (Cyl 7) went out.

This was followed the next day by another engine miss indicated by a Cyl 8 coil - or so I thought. When I took the cover off, I found an inordinate amount of condensate under the coil cover - mostly congregated towards the back...#8. Looking carefully at the old coil when I removed it (which happened to be a replacement version already), I found that the condensate had accumulated around where the bottom of the coil meets the rubber cover. I didn't find any water down the long rubber tube, but I decided to take a shot at cleaning and drying the whole assembly instead of just slapping in a new coil.

Which I did. Put the coil back in, and viola!, worked like a champ,

Now, when removing the coil cover for the opposite side 2 weeks ago, I remember seeing a bit of condensate under there too - but not as much as the left side. I can fully understand that, if condensate is going to occur, due to engine angle as well as acceleration, I can see how the stuff will wind up near the back cylinders of the engine.

Naturally, I did some on line searching, and seemed to find this is much more a of problem than I realized, occurring mostly in Fords from the 2000's on upward, depending upon the engine version.

What I found on this forum seems to fall into four categories:

1. That is happens.
2. Put some silicone grease on both the cover gaskets and around the wire loom entry point near the back of the head.
3. Replace the coil cover gaskets.
4. Be careful putting the coil cover back on. (This one isn't a problem - I've done it hundreds of times not only for myself, but helping others)

But doing a search here didn't really produce a whole lot on the subject matter - just a few things here and there, mostly stretching wayyy back in time.

Here's my real point and question: I haven't had this problem until very recently. Why all of sudden? I know that gaskets shrink with time...and maybe that is the real problem.

What I really want to know is how many of you, that care to respond, have run into this problem as your MM's have aged, and what have you done to prevent it from happening - item 2 or 3 above?

And of course, with the car sitting about 2 days, I went out today. Things were fine until I let the car sit about 2 hours or so. After that, I could feel that something was amiss (sorry, pun intended) again. Not real bad, but worthy of taking the covers off again and checking the condensate level.

Again - thank you guys for any replies and guidance!

[Turbov6Bryan]

Who pressure washed under the hood:) ?

Seems odd your seeing high condensation during the winter while the humidity is lowest, you have to dry it out first

I would buy NGK plugs and buy 8 coils or enough to make them all new next time you work on it


Pull the coils, vacuum out the holes because you have water built up,.... pull the plugs. Crank the engine over to make sure no water has dropped into the motor,... it'll blow the water out

Get dielectric grease and install new parts

The ONLY time I've had issues like your seeing is when I bought a DTR that had 2 inches of Oklahoma dirt on the engine and i pressure washed it and it started missing out

Get rid of the water

[Fastbob]

A little compressed air will go a long way in helping this problem.

[NXSBOB]

Replace all coils and spark plug at 100k miles and never get stranded by these.

[racorcey]

Who pressure washed under the hood:) ?

Seems odd your seeing high condensation during the winter while the humidity is lowest, you have to dry it out first

I would buy NGK plugs and buy 8 coils or enough to make them all new next time you work on it


Pull the coils, vacuum out the holes because you have water built up,.... pull the plugs. Crank the engine over to make sure no water has dropped into the motor,... it'll blow the water out

Get dielectric grease and install new parts

The ONLY time I've had issues like your seeing is when I bought a DTR that had 2 inches of Oklahoma dirt on the engine and i pressure washed it and it started missing out

Get rid of the water

Hi Turbo...you would have to play Captain Obvious, wouldn't you? But I've got ya covered on this one. Haven't washed the motor in a good 8-10 years.

I do have my favorite Ford plugs that already work well (from one of the engine tuners).

Your pointers are good and appreciated, but the really harder work is too much for me in this cold weather.

I do have some other observations in a few more posts...Thx again.

[racorcey]

A little compressed air will go a long way in helping this problem.

I have two garages, separated by about 200 feet. Guess which one doesn't have the compressor? <lol> A good idea thought though!

[racorcey]

Replace all coils and spark plug at 100k miles and never get stranded by these.

Probably a good idea in general at that mileage. Plugs have been changed more frequently in my case.

However - even with new coils, you can't fight Mr. Moisture!

[racorcey]

Some updates on my moisture problem...

Since my first post on this, I've been able to repeat rather accurately the cycle I listed above. Mainly a good cold start and run; then a 2 hour engine soak, and then the engine miss would occur on the way home or wherever.

I've been able to repeat this 3 times over the past 3 days.

Soooo....today I decided to apply high temp silicone to the coil cover gaskets, esp. since I already had the grease. And yes, I dried out the coil area in the heads as best I could. However, I didn't get a chance to "cycle" the engine today, so I won't know the results until later.

"IF" it works, it just proves that the gaskets have shrunk and hardened with time and temperature and need to be replaced. Fortunately, I did find the part number on this forum. The folks at my local Ford parts place couldn't find it since the P/N doesn't exist for the MM line of cars. Thanks to Ford on this oversight!

One more observation...over the years, I've had the coil covers off more times than I care to admit - mostly for spark plugs, but obviously the occasional bad coil. I remember in the past, after taking out the two bolts, that I generally had to pry to cover off, either with my fingers or the occasional screwdriver for leverage. What I have noticed is, when I remove the bolts now, the cover practically comes off by itself with no help from me. Gasket shrinkage and hardening, obviously.

What amazes me is that I don't see this problem reported more often in this digest. Either most of you live in the warmer South, or you keep your cars at a low mileage - or both :).

I'll give an update later.

[Turbov6Bryan]

Your getting condensation or enough water under the coil covers to create puddles of water. All that while winter is going on and the air is dry out, sounds amazing


Umm. IF you read here more often you would switch to NGK plugs

[racorcey]

Your getting condensation or enough water under the coil covers to create puddles of water. All that while winter is going on and the air is dry out, sounds amazing


Umm. IF you read here more often you would switch to NGK plugs

Well, Yes & No, Turbo, regarding the dry air. It's not as dry as you think sometimes in this weather. By means of example, it 11:45 pm in NJ right now, and I'm measuring 39 deg @ 65% humidity. Now, inside the house here, the humidity has aggregated down to about some 20%, mainly due to the heating system and the generally drier air of the season.

However, generally preceding snow or rain around these parts, and immediately afterwards, the outside humidity can easily range in the 60% to 80% range for days. And that's what has happened around here recently - we've hit a patch of wetter winter this year (thank you Farmers Almanac!). When the weather around here is "dry," we normally see around 25 to 45%. 50% is the tipping point, depending on the temperature, at which moisture will condense on warmer objects when it is cold outside (below 60 deg).

In fact, the fact that we've been rather cold around here recently, along with 50% or more humidity, just makes this particular situation worse. After the engine heats up from a run, and, after parking, a quicker than normal cool down will occur. This is a great generator of condensate - especially if the coil cover gasket is "leaky" to the atmosphere. As the engine and the top of the coil cover cools, moist air is pulled in under the cover, where it condenses against the hotter part of the engine head in the area of the coils and spark plugs. That's why there is an O ring near the top of the spark plug hole (where it mates with rubber coil boot) - to try to keep condensate from running down to the plug. Ford has known about this problem for a while, that's for sure. Making a better coil cover seal doesn't eliminate the problem, per se, but it does limit it to the point that what does occur can be coped with and "boiled off."

So, in case you thought it was amazing, I guess in one sense it is. It's amazing that we can have such high humidity during the winter, when you really wouldn't expect that to happen - at least in this part of the country. Your mileage, err, humidity may vary, especially if you live in the slightly drier mid west or SW.

BTW, as far as NGK plugs go...I know some of the guys like them. I used them one time, and they didn't last as long as the Ford version. I use a double-platinum version that is one range colder. I can't remember the number, but I know they don't need changing too often. Some of the guys on the digest use them as well.

Back to the coil cover and my grease job...if it has a good effect, then it will prove the point about moisture entry. If not, well, on to Plan B!

[GetMeMyStogie]

I had this problem a while back, when I first changed the spark plugs on my MM. At that time, I was unfamiliar with coil-over-plug engines. I cleaned off the old silicone from where the cop wires enter the area, and reinstalled the cop covers without any sealant whatsoever. The engine ran fine at first, but within a day or two, it was misfiring. Took off the cops and saw the water that had accumulated. It had rained the day after I changed the plugs, so there was actually a lot of water in there.
Cleaned up the head, reinstalled the cop covers this time with a silicone sealant.
This time the engine ran fine for a bit longer, but within a couple of weeks, it started misfiring again. Opened it up again, and saw that the cop cover gaskets were not sealing properly anymore (I don't remember how I figured that out, this was years ago).
So, cleaned the heads up again, reinstalled the cop covers with new cop cover gaskets, and fresh silicone sealant, and it ran like a champ for years after that.

[racorcey]

I had this problem a while back, when I first changed the spark plugs on my MM. At that time, I was unfamiliar with coil-over-plug engines. I cleaned off the old silicone from where the cop wires enter the area, and reinstalled the cop covers without any sealant whatsoever. The engine ran fine at first, but within a day or two, it was misfiring. Took off the cops and saw the water that had accumulated. It had rained the day after I changed the plugs, so there was actually a lot of water in there.
Cleaned up the head, reinstalled the cop covers this time with a silicone sealant.
This time the engine ran fine for a bit longer, but within a couple of weeks, it started misfiring again. Opened it up again, and saw that the cop cover gaskets were not sealing properly anymore (I don't remember how I figured that out, this was years ago).
So, cleaned the heads up again, reinstalled the cop covers with new cop cover gaskets, and fresh silicone sealant, and it ran like a champ for years after that.

Hey Stogie - thx for your 2 cents as well. Interesting that you still needed the silicone seal even with new gaskets. But it looks like I may have to go that route (new gaskets) regardless.

However, I do have an update from my last posting, which I will do next.

[racorcey]

Just an update on my last posting of Jan 10. So, at the last juncture, I coated the gaskets lavishly with silicone grease. Everything seemed OK for about 2 days, and then the miss started up again. I let it get bad enough to light the check-engine bulb.

Throwing the scan tool on it showed a P0302 code. Well, that was not what I was expecting. I thought for sure water had gotten to cyl #8 again. So, I pulled the right bank coil cover and found cyl #2 had an OEM coil. I replaced the coil, and, to date, so far so good. And another one (OEM) bites the dust.

Interestingly enough, when I pulled the coil cover, even with the silicone seal, there was a reasonable amount of condensate on the inside of the cover. I'm guessing that, even with new seals, that likely will never go away completely, but more likely will be barely held in check. Just part of a not-so-good design.

[GetMeMyStogie]

Interesting that you still needed the silicone seal even with new gaskets.



Yes, you absolutely need to remove any old sealant and use new sealant every time you open up a cop cover, if you want solid reliability. The gaskets are reusable for a long time, but the small dab of sealant isn't.
For this reason, I don't ever casually open them up for a look.

[Chevyguy]

My MM had 7 original plugs still installed at 65K, my carfax showed one coil replaced at 22 K and sure enough only #4 had been changed, along with that one plug. The OEM plugs have a paint dot on the electrode. These were from my LX, the Marauder had a different color, note the corrosion on the plug threads

http://i348.photobucket.com/albums/q329/folingo/2004%20Crown%20Victoria%20LX/Chassis/20120722_114539.jpg (http://s348.photobucket.com/user/folingo/media/2004%20Crown%20Victoria%20LX/Chassis/20120722_114539.jpg.html)

You can see here when I pulled the pass side coil cover water had leaked in and really corroded the #4 plug threads and lesser so the #3. The drivers side cover had never been removed, and was bright and shiny inside. I could see that the factory uses the black RTV to seal the grommet where the COP wires go in the back side of the coil well.

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k603/folingo69/2011-07-30_09-58-55_29.jpg (http://s1118.photobucket.com/user/folingo69/media/2011-07-30_09-58-55_29.jpg.html)

http://i1118.photobucket.com/albums/k603/folingo69/2011-07-30_09-58-43_617.jpg (http://s1118.photobucket.com/user/folingo69/media/2011-07-30_09-58-43_617.jpg.html)

The pass side was gooped up and messy, especially where the coil cover has the rear noch, while the drivers side was neat and well sealed. RTV should only be used to set the grommet in place and seal the gap in the gasket.

I still have the 7 OEM coils, and it does chug when lugged, like when running the stock tune and it locks up in 4th at 37 mph, most of the coil harness clips broke so all this needs to be replaced.