Supercharged AND Turboed Marauder???

[woaface]

My brother is in town and he's all about cars. I told him about my run around with Todd and he said he test drove a buddies car that was supercharged AND turboed. Now I ran through how I was amazingly sceptical about this and wasn't too ready to believe him without pictures, but he insisted he was right.

Anyone know of a supercharged and turboed MM in the Washington state area?


:confused:
:confused:
:confused:

[01 Interceptor]

No...but I'll keep a watch out for it!

[David Morton]

Ridiculous. A blower is basically an air pump. It gulps a set volume of air per revolution and forces it into the engine. I suppose a turbo could be used to pre-compress the air before it goes into the blower but why not overdrive the blower instead?

In the end you have some simple laws of physics that cannot be ignored. If the cylinder takes a charge of air and fuel and compresses it by a ratio of 10.1 to 1, you're gonna have to have appx. 91 octane fuel to prevent the mixture from exploding on it's own (a bad thing) before the spark plug fires, because of the heat it will attain just by compressing it that much. When you boost the pressure of the charge before it goes into the cylinder, you have effectively increased the compression ratio of engine and then need a higher octane fuel. An intercooler can shave some off this requirement but only to a point. Now, methanol engines can have insane compression ratios because it's octane rating is 160. Racing gas is appx. 104. Any of the blowers can use all of that with proper gearing.

I've never heard of such a thing in my 30 years of being a car nut, including the four that I had a subscription to Hot Rod Magazine.

Not trying to say somebody is lying or didn't do it on a street car. I wouldn't be suprised to see it these days of trucks with four-foot ground clearance, low riders with 1 inch ground clearance, and speaker packed trunks with enough amps to shatter the eardrums of the front four rows at an Eminem concert. It just doesn't strike me as anything a reasonable performance enthusiast would do.

I've also run into more than one or two insufferable braggarts in my day as well.

[hitchhiker]

My brother is in town and he's all about cars. I told him about my run around with Todd and he said he test drove a buddies car that was supercharged AND turboed. Now I ran through how I was amazingly sceptical about this and wasn't too ready to believe him without pictures, but he insisted he was right.

Anyone know of a supercharged and turboed MM in the Washington state area?


:confused:
:confused:
:confused:

I suppose he has TAP SHOES too!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:

[woaface]

David, I'm inclined to agree, it would be EXTREMELY difficult, and in my humble opinion...stupid and probably really ugly (all of the plumbing). But that's what I told my brother and he still insisted. He's a 27 year old former nuke ET for a U.S. submarine, so he's not exactly stupid...but he must be mistaken. I'll be asking more questions in the morning.

Hey David (hitchhiker). I'm taking Salsa and Swing now, if that gets your laugh on any more:baaa:

[01 Interceptor]

Hey last week I saw a turbo'd and supercharged engine on TRUCKS! when they went to WyoTech...of course it was an old two-stroke diesel. :D

[hitchhiker]

David, I'm inclined to agree, it would be EXTREMELY difficult, and in my humble opinion...stupid and probably really ugly (all of the plumbing). But that's what I told my brother and he still insisted. He's a 27 year old former nuke ET for a U.S. submarine, so he's not exactly stupid...but he must be mistaken. I'll be asking more questions in the morning.

Hey David (hitchhiker). I'm taking Salsa and Swing now, if that gets your laugh on any more:baaa:

What's next 'Ballroom Dancing'?

If we find out that you are doing ballet it will be time for an intervention!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Your brother's Submarine experience is great, but almost anyone can be fooled some of the time.

There is simply no good reason for doing both S/C and T/C unless one simply wanted to prove that it could be installed on the same car or they had been smoking too many buds!

Keep saving for that Marauder!

D.

[SouLRioT]

Any chance that it would be NO2 and the Supercharger? Thats has been done befor, and will work.

[sailsmen]

The 2 stroke Detroit Diesel is Turbo and then Roots S/C. You also saw it on some aircraft engines.

[Brutus]

How about Twin turbos, supercharged and nitrous? After reading this post I remembered Rick Dobbertin's Nova that was featured in Hot Rod several years back. Here is a pic of the motor. (http://www.dobbertinhydrocar.com/Nova/NOVA_PHOTO_ENG_3.jpg)

[MARAUDERCHICK]

What's next 'Ballroom Dancing'?

If we find out that you are doing ballet it will be time for an intervention!

:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol:


Are you picking on my future son-in-law?????:nono: :nono: :nono:

[woaface]

Yeah Brutus, that thing is probably slow as crap:shot:

[Marauder386]

OK, it would look really ugly with a Turbo and a S/C...IMHO.
Nuke Eletronics Technicians < hence ET > are NOTORIOUSLY famous for seeing something and thinking its another. They are good at Oh Enn ohh Eff Eff but not alot of common sense. Smart buggers they are, they just cannot boil water.

M386

[Brutus]

OK, it would look really ugly with a Turbo and a S/C...IMHO.
Nuke Eletronics Technicians < hence ET > are NOTORIOUSLY famous for seeing something and thinking its another. They are good at Oh Enn ohh Eff Eff but not alot of common sense. Smart buggers they are, they just cannot boil water.

M386
Look at the picture from the link I posted above! Engine looks pretty awesome IMHO.

[RF Overlord]

The Roots blower on a Detroit Diesel 2-stroke is just that: a "blower", not a supercharger.

Its primary function is to blow fresh air at slightly greater than atmospheric pressure into the cylinder when the piston is at BDC, to help scavenge exhaust gasses. (2-stroke diesels have the intake ports at or near the bottom of the cylinder)

[sailsmen]

Please explain, why is it just a blower and not an S/C?

[Bluerauder]

What's next 'Ballroom Dancing'?

If we find out that you are doing ballet it will be time for an intervention!
D.
Something wrong with Ballroom Dancing???? Or Tap?? Or Swing?? or Ballet??

[2003 MIB]

How about Twin turbos, supercharged and nitrous? After reading this post I remembered Rick Dobbertin's Nova that was featured in Hot Rod several years back. Here is a pic of the motor. (http://www.dobbertinhydrocar.com/Nova/NOVA_PHOTO_ENG_3.jpg)

Too weird...When I saw this post- I instantly thought of RD's Nova- it has stuck in my mind for many years and is the only S/C & turbo combo I've ever seen or heard about...Dobbertin's "surface orbiter" project was also outside the box- It was a milk tanker (like semis haul) converted into an amphibious vehicle. Wild stuff... :up:

[Brutus]

Too weird...When I saw this post- I instantly thought of RD's Nova- it has stuck in my mind for many years and is the only S/C & turbo combo I've ever seen or heard about...Dobbertin's "surface orbiter" project was also outside the box- It was a milk tanker (like semis haul) converted into an amphibious vehicle. Wild stuff... :up:

Yea me too. Dont forget the Pontiac J200 he did with a similar setup. It had twin turbos and twin superchargers!

[2003 MIB]

Yea me too. Dont forget the Pontiac J200 he did with a similar setup. It had twin turbos and twin superchargers!

Yep!!!- I remember there was a lot of flak about people that claimed the J2000 didn't even run- it was simply a display rack for the parts. He poured in gas and fired it up to a very stunned show crowd...I wonder whatever happened to that guy...The surface orbiter ended up on eBay because he and his wife were divorcing...Hot Rod of the year for two or three years and then falls off the radar...

[RF Overlord]

Please explain, why is it just a blower and not an S/C?

I guess it's more a matter of design priority. A supercharger's (or turbocharger's) primary function is as a "power adder", where the Roots blower as used on a 2-stroke diesel is more an exhaust scavenging pump than a power adder. I'm sure there is some small power addition, but it would be minimal compared to the normal output of the motor, which is often in the many thousands of HP in the case of locomotives and large marine diesels.

[sailsmen]

The inlet side of the Roots is sucking from the exhaust?

[LCpl Retired]

I have two of these DDs in my boat. They are 1973 vintage, and I believe about the earliest of the pleasurecraft engines that are both turbo'd and have the blower. The two turbochargers are spooled by the exhaust, and ram the air into the roots blower, via two intercoolers with heat exchangers using seawater. The fuel is also cooled in the same manner. These motors develop either 435 or 450 hp depending on who you listen to. The basically otherwise identicle "naturally aspirated" (blower only) version of this motor developes 350 hp. The cubic inches of each are the same (8 cyl by 71 cubic inches per cyl) The "n"s have a very slightly higher compression. The Ns are supposed to last 5-8000 hrs, the Tis (turbo/intercooled) last 3-5000 hrs.
Fuel consumption of the Tis is 33GPH vs 18-20 for the Ns. After 30 yrs with proper care mine still run to factory spec. It is my understanding that the roots blower on them Was used in drag racing applications, way back. They probably just made it spin faster?. The 568 cubic inches of these engines may not sound like alot...but these engines are massive, weighing at least a ton apiece,and maybe quite a bit more.

[woaface]

Yes, no picking on my dancing...I had one of my lady friends telling me how cool she thinks it is, and this seems to be the general concensus:D

Swing and Salsa will come in handy on more than one occasion I'm sure.

Hey, do you think I could count Salsa for learning a foreign language because I'm tired of this espanol stuff....

[RF Overlord]

The inlet side of the Roots is sucking from the exhaust?

No, it's in the "normal" location; it takes the intake air and "blows" it into the combustion chamber while the exhaust valve is open, which helps to force the exhaust gas out. Since the exhaust valve is open, there is no "pressurisation" of the combustion chamber as there would be in a supercharged car engine. Remember. the intake ports (there is no intake valve) are at the bottom of the cylinder while the exhaust valve is at the top.

This (http://www.steamengine.com.au/ic/engines/simple_engine/diesel-2.html) might make it easier to visualise...

*Edit* - I've changed the link to a better one...

[sailsmen]

Thanks fo rthe link.

Then the turbo is not pressurizing the intake either.

[RF Overlord]

Thanks fo rthe link.

Then the turbo is not pressurizing the intake either.
To be honest, no one has ever explained to me how a turbocharger can blow THROUGH a blower...I assume that since the turbo compresses the air before it gets to the blower, the blower simply passes along the higher pressure air, without greatly increasing the pressure...and since the exhaust valve port is of fixed size, it eventually becomes a restriction, so the additional pressure provided by the turbocharger CAN build up in the combustion chamber...

This is taxing the limits of my 2-stroke knowledge...any Merchant Marine Chief Engineers out there that can clarify this?

[woaface]

I talked to him further about it. It was not a friend but a used 03 at a Chrysler dealership when he was buying his 300M a year ago (he's got a trail-blazer now though) He test drove it, really liked it, but I don't think had the money. He said both the supercharger and the turbo were pointed out to him. Now he's an electronics guy, he knows all about electronics...but I'll still hold a little bit of doubt that he could have been mistaken on engine components because he's not really up on the times there.

I bet it was vortech.:up:

[Krytin]

Hey last week I saw a turbo'd and supercharged engine on TRUCKS! when they went to WyoTech...of course it was an old two-stroke diesel. :D
This was pretty common on some Detroit"s and some REALLY big stationary engines- they use one or two "pony" turbos to feed the supercharger. I wouldn't think there is enough room under the hood much less any real need for both on an engine running on gasoline and of the relativly small displacement found in passenger cars/light trucks!