Brake bleeding question

[Svashtar]

As long as I'm replacing the rotors and calipers, I was going to bleed out the old original brake fluid. Plan was to start at the right rear, then left rear then move up to the front. (This assumes the ABS isn't mounted in the rear...)

My question is do I need to do anything with the ABS itself? I understand it requires a shop to bleed it? Is there a sensor I need to disconnect, or can I just bleed the 4 lines as normal?

Some say you need to change out the brake fluid every 2-3 years; I don't know about that, but at 14 years and 113K it seems like s good idea.

Thanks for any info on the ABS.


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[Pat]

Dealer has a device that hooks up to the ABS computer and activates each brake individually.

Don't know how much fluid is involved or how air is removed.

Maybe a trip to the dealer or someone here knows.

The dealer did mine some years ago. Didn't cost much IIRC.

[fastblackmerc]

You don't need to do anything with the ABS (mounted in the front) as long as you DO NOT let the master cylinder run dry.

I'd gravity bleed each line.


Remove all the old brake fluid from the master cylinder. A turkey baster works well. I usually buy a few at the dollar store as you can use them for draining the power steering pump.
Add fresh new fluid
Open the RR line and let the fluid out until it's clear - constantly checking the master cylinder level.
Open the LR line and let the fluid out until it's clear - constantly checking the master cylinder level.
Open the RF line and let the fluid out until it's clear - constantly checking the master cylinder level.
Open the FL line and let the fluid out until it's clear - constantly checking the master cylinder level.
Top off the master cylinder.


NOTE: use clear tubing on each bleeder screw so the fluid doesn't get all over the place and you can see the color of the fluid.

[RF Overlord]

^^^what FBM said^^^ That's the way I do it.

[Svashtar]

You don't need to do anything with the ABS (mounted in the front) as long as you DO NOT let the master cylinder run dry.

I'd gravity bleed each line.


Remove all the old brake fluid from the master cylinder. A turkey baster works well. I usually buy a few at the dollar store as you can use them for draining the power steering pump.
Add fresh new fluid
Open the RR line and let the fluid out until it's clear - constantly checking the master cylinder level.
Open the LR line and let the fluid out until it's clear - constantly checking the master cylinder level.
Open the RF line and let the fluid out until it's clear - constantly checking the master cylinder level.
Open the FL line and let the fluid out until it's clear - constantly checking the master cylinder level.
Top off the master cylinder.


NOTE: use clear tubing on each bleeder screw so the fluid doesn't get all over the place and you can see the color of the fluid.


Outstanding, thanks FBM. I'm working alone so made up a bottle with 3/16" clear tubing and was planning on doing it that way, starting with fluid in the bottom of the bottle and pumping the brakes a couple of times per wheel, but then thought maybe I would affect the ABS.

Good idea on the turkey basters. I was going to use my red squeeze bulb thingy, but I've used it with other fluids, so probably not a great idea.

I'll take the master cylinder down to the min line, but to be safe won't go any lower.

Thanks again for laying it out!



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[fastblackmerc]

I installed these:

http://speedbleeder.com/

They even have them for the Wilwoods I have from TCE.

[fastblackmerc]

Outstanding, thanks FBM. I'm working alone so made up a bottle with 3/16" clear tubing and was planning on doing it that way, starting with fluid in the bottom of the bottle and pumping the brakes a couple of times per wheel, but then thought maybe I would affect the ABS.

Good idea on the turkey basters. I was going to use my red squeeze bulb thingy, but I've used it with other fluids, so probably not a great idea.

I'll take the master cylinder down to the min line, but to be safe won't go any lower.

Thanks again for laying it out!



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Take as much fluid out of the MC as you can. As long as you don't pump the brakes you won't get any air in the system.

[Svashtar]

Ok, thanks. I wasn't sure about that.

By the way, when compressing the pistons to change out the pads, do you open the bleeder screw to take off the pressure, or just let it backflow to the master cylinder, then remove the excess? I was going to bleed first, then r&r the pads compressing the pistons and letting it back glow, then remove excess as it backflowed, but someone told me to open the screw instead as I could damage the pistons. (?) I think the other day you mentioned you opened the screw as well, but that may have been another poster.

Seems simple enough, but everyone has their different ways of doing it!

Thanks again for the tips.



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[fastblackmerc]

Ok, thanks. I wasn't sure about that.

By the way, when compressing the pistons to change out the pads, do you open the bleeder screw to take off the pressure, or just let it backflow to the master cylinder, then remove the excess? I was going to bleed first, then r&r the pads compressing the pistons and letting it back glow, then remove excess as it backflowed, but someone told me to open the screw instead as I could damage the pistons. (?) I think the other day you mentioned you opened the screw as well, but that may have been another poster.

Seems simple enough, but everyone has their different ways of doing it!

Thanks again for the tips.



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Make sure there is room for the extra fluid, compress the piston(s), replace the pads then start the bleeding procedure.

To compress the piston(s) you can use a C clamp, extra large water pump pliers, or a specially designed compresser.

[Svashtar]

Got it, make room in the reservoir, change pads, then bleed last.

Think that may have been an advisement on a foreign car forum where they didn't want fluid flowing back to the master cylinder for some reason.

Really appreciate the help, thank you!


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[sailsmen]

~40 years ago I bought a spare reservoir cap and attached a container of brake fluid that was pressurized by a compressor.

Opened all 4 brake bleeders and turned on the compressor.;)

[massacre]

~40 years ago I bought a spare reservoir cap and attached a container of brake fluid that was pressurized by a compressor.

Opened all 4 brake bleeders and turned on the compressor.;)

I use a pressure bleeder, same principle

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-schwaben-parts/3-liter-premium-european-brake-bleeder/007237sch01aktkt/?gclid=CjwKCAjw47bLBRBkEiwABh-PkfBN1Iuu1PEWs082aJtifm1O0VkAk Z0V3Cf5ObQJfCDbf9ONZvtNrxoCo1g QAvD_BwE

That one is plastic and less expensive. Mine holds a gallon and is stainless steel with rubber bladder. Only needs like 15psi tof air pressure to work.
Saves so much time it's so worth it

[BAD MERC]

Pretty much DO NOT bleed your brakes by pushing the pedal to the floor while a helper opens the bleeder screws. This allows the brake pedal to push the master cylinder piston way beyond normal operating stroke and will usually ruin the master cylinder. The seals will be damaged and allow internal fluid passage after bleeding in such a manner.

[sailsmen]

I use a pressure bleeder, same principle

https://www.ecstuning.com/b-schwaben-parts/3-liter-premium-european-brake-bleeder/007237sch01aktkt/?gclid=CjwKCAjw47bLBRBkEiwABh-PkfBN1Iuu1PEWs082aJtifm1O0VkAk Z0V3Cf5ObQJfCDbf9ONZvtNrxoCo1g QAvD_BwE

That one is plastic and less expensive. Mine holds a gallon and is stainless steel with rubber bladder. Only needs like 15psi tof air pressure to work.
Saves so much time it's so worth it

I had a car that had a proportioning, not many had it back then, valve which made it difficult to bleed. So I came up with the system.

It worked well but the pressure regulator was not very accurate so I would have to monitor and manually release it.

[justbob]

Pretty much DO NOT bleed your brakes by pushing the pedal to the floor while a helper opens the bleeder screws. This allows the brake pedal to push the master cylinder piston way beyond normal operating stroke and will usually ruin the master cylinder. The seals will be damaged and allow internal fluid passage after bleeding in such a manner.



What? That's how I've done it for 30 years and never an issue.


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[Svashtar]

I installed these:



http://speedbleeder.com/



They even have them for the Wilwoods I have from TCE.



Cool, but I'm getting almost the same performance by having the end of the fuel line in a bottle with the end in a couple of inches of brake fluid, right? Open the bleeder screw, push the pedal to pump new fluid into the lines, release the pedal pulls fluid back into the lines.

Thing is, I shouldn't have any air in the lines as it is, I'm just exchanging dirty for clean fluid. At least that's the plan.


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[fastblackmerc]

Cool, but I'm getting almost the same performance by having the end of the fuel line in a bottle with the end in a couple of inches of brake fluid, right? Open the bleeder screw, push the pedal to pump new fluid into the lines, release the pedal pulls fluid back into the lines.

Thing is, I shouldn't have any air in the lines as it is, I'm just exchanging dirty for clean fluid. At least that's the plan.


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Why take the chance. Gravity bleed.

[Svashtar]

Pretty much DO NOT bleed your brakes by pushing the pedal to the floor while a helper opens the bleeder screws. This allows the brake pedal to push the master cylinder piston way beyond normal operating stroke and will usually ruin the master cylinder. The seals will be damaged and allow internal fluid passage after bleeding in such a manner.



I totally don't get this. What you describe is the way brakes have been bled for decades. I don't see how that system could be so popular if the master cylinder were usually ruined by it. (?)

I would do that, but since I don't have a helper, my plan is to run clear 3/16 hose from the screws into a bottle filled with a few inches of fluid. Top off the master cylinder, open the screw, pump the brakes a couple of times, pushing new fluid into the lines, and the outflow into the bottle. Make sure the tube has no air bubbles, close the screw. Move to the next wheel.

The vacuum hose and pressure tools others describe look cool, and I'm sure work faster, but I don't see why this wouldn't work.

>>>. FBM, following your instructions, do you pump the pedal a couple of times or just let the new fluid gravity feed from the master cylinder?

Thanks. I'm working on other stuff today, but have to get this done tomorrow. Seems there are conflicting opinions on stuff I thought was simple!


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[Svashtar]

Why take the chance. Gravity bleed.



Ok, should work the same, just slower. Like I said, the system is all closed, no air, just want to get fresh fluid in the lines. I appreciate yours and everyone else's input.


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[Svashtar]

Not to beat the horse to death, but a final follow up I found interesting: a mechanic who posted online that he had done hundreds of brake jobs said that he seemed to see slightly less caliper failure after a brake job if he allowed the caliper to drain through the bleeder screw when compressing the piston, as opposed to pushing back up through the lines to the master cylinder. Plausible I guess.

I'll have my tight 3/16" line into an overflow bottle of fluid with a few inches of fluid to start (closed system.) Should be able to leave the MC near full this way to start out, and will vent the fluid right at the source, gravity bleeding the brakes and changing the pads at the same time.

Not worried about the fronts but have heard the rear calipers are prone to failure after a brake job (?) so will give this a try.


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[fastblackmerc]

Not to beat the horse to death, but a final follow up I found interesting: a mechanic who posted online that he had done hundreds of brake jobs said that he seemed to see slightly less caliper failure after a brake job if he allowed the caliper to drain through the bleeder screw when compressing the piston, as opposed to pushing back up through the lines to the master cylinder.

I'll have my tight 3/16" line into an overflow bottle of fluid with a few inches of fluid to start (closed system) so will try this. Should be able to leave the MC near full this way to start out, and will vent the fluid right at the source so to speak, gravity bleeding the brakes and changing the pads at the same time.

Not worried about the fronts but have heard the rear calipers are prone to failure after a brake job (?) so will give this a try.


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I have never ever seen that happen in 50+ years of working on cars... 10 of those years professionally.

[Svashtar]

Ok, one of my failures, over analysis. Lots of one off opinions out there can confuse things. I do appreciate your expertise.

BTW, I'm using Permatex dialectic grease on the guide pins to keep the boots from getting damaged, as I didn't have any dedicated silicone lube, with minimal standard brake lube on the pad contact points with the caliper.

Hopefully no squeaks later...


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[RF Overlord]

Dielectric grease is not really made for high-heat applications. Run yourself down to your local FLAPS and get some purpose-made caliper grease.

I use Sil-Glyde (http://www.autozone.com/brake-and-power-steering-fluid-additives/brake-lube/ags-sil-glyde-brake-lubricant/752442_0_0).

[Svashtar]

Ok, that was what Permatex recommended, and used to be a Ford spec back in the day I think, but point taken. I've heard of that stuff. Pretty sure Napa has some. Thanks for the suggestion.


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[RF Overlord]

If Permatex lists it as a recommended use, I'm sure it will be fine.

[fastblackmerc]

Get brake caliper lube.

[Svashtar]

Thanks, I will. I think the dialectric grease would do in a pinch, but I'll keep it for the COP boots and plugs. Makes sense that brakes get a whole lot hotter.


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[justbob]

Anti seize.


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[Svashtar]

Anti seize.


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Thanks, don't think that's a good application for anything other than the back of the new rotor. The greases mentioned are probably better for brake parts.

BTW, can't believe it; the ABS light has been on in the dash for months, 113k on the original brakes, and there's still nearly 1/4" on the pads. I'm impressed.

Assumed the light meant the brakes needed replacement, so will see if it goes out after the new ones are in. I hope that was it.

Finally, assumed removing the caliper pin bolts would allow the caliper to lift off the pads, but no way. Would only come off 3/4" then hang up on the pistons. Had to remove the caliper completely to get at the pads from the underside.


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[BAD MERC]

What? That's how I've done it for 30 years and never an issue.


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I ran a shop for 2 years. I have seen internal failure and fluid passing into the booster several times from forcing the piston to the bottom of the bore. I guess you're a little more fortunate.

[MyBlackBeasts]

I ran a shop for 2 years. I have seen internal failure and fluid passing into the booster several times from forcing the piston to the bottom of the bore. I guess you're a little more fortunate.

Yes - when bleeding, the master piston travels in unused areas of the bore where sediment/rust has built up and this can damage the seals on the piston. I have seen it 2 times that I can remember. The way I look at it, at that point the master is on its way out anyway & may have just saved someone from a accident. Replace it & get it over with.



Thanks, don't think that's a good application for anything other than the back of the new rotor.

Wrong. When anti-sieze was 1st released in the late 70s one of the recommended uses was caliper slides & drum hardware pivot points. I still prefer it to "caliper grease" as it seems to stay on the parts much longer than the "caliper grease" products. In the 100s if not 1000s of brake jobs I've done in 40+ years of professional wrenching I've never had one come back with a frozen slide as long as it was properly prepped before applying the AS. "caliper grease" just seems to create repeat customers.

[Svashtar]

Thanks for the info. I know it does last for sure, I found some on the back of my rims after several years. I read of other people using it for caliper pins, but also read others counseling against it, I believe because of the heat.

The 14 year old pins on my calipers were still coated with a dark grease of some kind and moved smoothly, but I'll reapply grease anyway.



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[massacre]

Anti-seize gets "cakey" after a while in this application IME. I used to use it many years ago but have used this stuff for over 10 years, best stuff I have ever used. I use it in our fleet of Econoline vans and also on our huge fleet of heavy trucks with air brakes. If it will stand up to 20 ton trucks carrying liquid loads, it's more than good enough for a MM

https://www.walmart.com/ip/Permatex-24125-Ceram-Xtre-Brk-Parts-Lube-Each/47987312?wmlspartner=wlpa&selectedSellerId=837&adid=22222222227035340554&wl0=&wl1=s&wl2=t&wl3=75763613794&wl4=pla-176013950434&wl5=1018449&wl6=&wl7=&wl8=&wl9=pla&wl10=112343835&wl11=online&wl12=47987312&wl13=&veh=sem

IME anti seize is made for fasteners not to gall or seize in their threaded holes.
It's not really a great lubricant for parts that move/slide all the time.

[RF Overlord]

the ABS light has been on in the dash for months...Assumed the light meant the brakes needed replacement, so will see if it goes out after the new ones are in. I hope that was it.I doubt it. The amber ABS light is solely for faults with the ABS system, and has nothing to do with the condition of the rotors, pads, or calipers. Find someone with a code scanner that can read ABS codes...Mary's car had an ABS light that would only come on when slowing down almost to a walk. Turned out to be the LR wheel-speed sensor.

[Svashtar]

Swell; so it's not a normal DTC code that I can clear. This one came on intermittently for a few weeks, along with the red "brake" light. When they did come on I would not be able to engage the traction control. Then both lights would go out for a couple of weeks and everything would be normal. About two months ago they started staying on all the time, but I still had pad. I figured it was just telling me the pads were low; dumb assumption.

Because of my tune issues I've been running the stock tune with the 4:10's, so the speedo is off, but I don't know if that would confuse it over time... doubt it.

I'll have to take it to my mechanic and have him look at it once I get it back together.

Thanks as always for the good info.




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[Spectragod]

Because of my tune issues I've been running the stock tune with the 4:10's, so the speedo is off, but I don't know if that would confuse it over time... doubt it.


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Really? You doubt it.......... good lord.SMH :mad2:

[fastblackmerc]

I doubt it. The amber ABS light is solely for faults with the ABS system, and has nothing to do with the condition of the rotors, pads, or calipers. Find someone with a code scanner that can read ABS codes...Mary's car had an ABS light that would only come on when slowing down almost to a walk. Turned out to be the LR wheel-speed sensor.


Swell; so it's not a normal DTC code that I can clear. This one came on intermittently for a few weeks, along with the red "brake" light. When they did come on I would not be able to engage the traction control. Then both lights would go out for a couple of weeks and everything would be normal. About two months ago they started staying on all the time, but I still had pad. I figured it was just telling me the pads were low; dumb assumption.

Because of my tune issues I've been running the stock tune with the 4:10's, so the speedo is off, but I don't know if that would confuse it over time... doubt it.

I'll have to take it to my mechanic and have him look at it once I get it back together.

Thanks as always for the good info.




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The rear wheel ABS sensor bolts are known to backout over time.

[Svashtar]

Really? You doubt it.......... good lord.SMH :mad2:



Yeah, based on my experience I doubt it. If you have better info then share it. That's what we're here for. I'm always willing to learn, and to be respectful.

Otherwise, I have enough arrogant / aggressive know-it-all bull$h&t in my life right now, so don't need more from someone I don't even know.

If you don't want to share it, then just go away.


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[Svashtar]

The rear wheel ABS sensor bolts are known to backout over time.



Thanks, that sounds likely. Is that part of the rear brake assembly? I'm replacing the water pump later today, and will get to the rears tomorrow.


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[Spectragod]

Yeah, based on my experience I doubt it. If you have better info then share it. That's what we're here for. I'm always willing to learn, and to be respectful.

Otherwise, I have enough arrogant / aggressive know-it-all bull$h&t in my life right now, so don't need more from someone I don't even know.

If you don't want to share it, then just go away.


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Your welcome...


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[Svashtar]

Your welcome...


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?? Uh, yeah, sure! You betcha there! That's telling me! Whatever it is.

(BTW, I think you meant to say "_You're_ welcome.")

There's always one...


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[Spectragod]

?? Uh, yeah, sure! You betcha there! That's telling me! Whatever it is.

(BTW, I think you meant to say "_You're_ welcome.")

There's always one...


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You mean that there is only one, because others have bit their tongue.

I didn't even know about this thread till I read about it on another board.

Thanks for the humor.


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[Svashtar]

Got it; you know so much, and my ignorant supposition based on a lack of information amuses you, but rather than correcting my ignorance you sit back and laugh about it. There's a word for that type of personality. See below.

I've been running the stock tune with the 4:10's for 18 months with no issues, but you were born with this infallible knowledge that you're just too cool to share.

There's a book you need to read: google Robert I. Sutton, Harvard Business Review.

I was going to say "if the shoe fits," but it clearly does.


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[Svashtar]

But, you know, you're right; it's obvious there's a direct relationship between the brakes and the gearing which throws the speedo off.

Just like cooling / radiator issues are obviously related to a clogged PCV valve, or a bad lighting module causing my alignment problems. Should have known!




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[Spectragod]

Is your speedometer off, is your transmission shift schedule off, converter lockup off?

The ABS on this platform doesn't tolerate a lot of different things, 4:10's and a stock tune can very well do that. As can a bad control module, bad wheel sensors, variation in wheel speed between the right and left rear wheels and/or the front and rear wheels.

There can be other factors as well, from corrosion to bad connectors.

A code is a good place to start, but if you don't have troubleshooting experience, you'll be posting here for a long time.

And while it may sound smug, I do know "so much", 16 years in a dealership and now I run a large fleet for a government entity.

Been a ASE master tech for a long time, seen a lot of cars, with a lot of different issues, so yes , I may have a clue.

If your in over the head on this project, my suggestion is to make a friend who can help and guide you hands on. That will be the best teacher and experience for you. Doing this via the internet will generate a lot of B.S. tech, which I have seen quite a bit of.

Brakes are quite important on a motor vehicle, do yourself a favor and don't do a brake job "just good enough", your life and others are depending on that.



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[Svashtar]

First, thank you for some real information, finally, in lieu of cryptic smart-assed responses, getting "humor" out of the question.

2, I couldn't stand the DR tune anymore so went back to stock. I didn't have the bread to get a lot of this work done, or a new tune till now.

What you're missing is that I never questioned your info or your experience or your master mechanic status; I questioned your condescending arrogant put down to someone without that experience. Not everyone here is a mechanic by trade.

And I've figured out how to do a bunch of stuff to this car, and the brake job will be more detailed and just as well done as any shop I've ever been to can do. I'm tilting towards better, considering the boatload of master mechanic half-assed work I've had to redo over the years, from the gears and stud & girdle kit forward. I'm completely cleaning / polishing the hubs, the caliper body and brackets, installing new rotors and pads with new hardware, lubing everything correctly, bleeding the brakes, then bedding them in.

But the issue providing everyone so much glee wasn't about the brake job, it was about the ABS light and my stupid assumption that had more to do with the brakes than the gears.

I don't have any friends helping with this, which is why I came back here looking for tech, B.S. or otherwise.

I'll finish the job, and if the lights are still on will put the DR tune back and see if that helps until I can get the better tune from Marty. If not I'll take it to a shop familiar with ABS issues.


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[justbob]

Four pages on how to bleed brakes and what kind of grease to use. Wow! All four brakes take an hour tops using a jack. Just get it done already. [emoji6]

Not bashing, but there has been more time spent on here than what the entire job entails.

Like mentioned, starting a topic online is going to yield you nothing but personal opinions over stuff that doesn't even matter. At the end of the day, you will never notice a difference in how you collapse a caliper, what grease you use, or how to properly fart upwind..


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[guspech750]

Four pages on how to bleed brakes and what kind of grease to use. Wow! All four brakes take an hour tops using a jack. Just get it done already. [emoji6]

Not bashing, but there has been more time spent on here than what the entire job entails.

Like mentioned, starting a topic online is going to yield you nothing but personal opinions over stuff that doesn't even matter. At the end of the day, you will never notice a difference in how you collapse a caliper, what grease you use, or how to properly fart upwind..


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https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170721/3bb28b52b3025e59b39c8b43a95dec 91.jpg



Sent from The White House on taxpayers dimes.

[massacre]

I didn't even know about this thread till I read about it on another board.

Got a Link?

[Svashtar]

Four pages on how to bleed brakes and what kind of grease to use. Wow! All four brakes take an hour tops using a jack. Just get it done already. [emoji6]

Not bashing, but there has been more time spent on here than what the entire job entails.

Like mentioned, starting a topic online is going to yield you nothing but personal opinions over stuff that doesn't even matter. At the end of the day, you will never notice a difference in how you collapse a caliper, what grease you use, or how to properly fart upwind..


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Just get it done already? And you know it _isn't_ exactly how?

You can change all four brakes and rotors and clean up caliper bodies and hubs and gravity bleed the brakes in an hour! ? Wow! I'm impressed. You're obviously a hell of a mechanic.

And you're "not bashing," but your post was five hours after the last one on the thread, so you're at least criticizing after the fact.

So, here's the deal: its a discussion list, not a competition to get the most information across in the shortest amount of time in the briefest message format for your personal short attention span convenience, on a mission to save listserv bandwidth.

Eleven people chimed in with info, including you, with info about using anti-seize as a high temp lube on caliper pins. (I'd Google that one if I were you.)

The "four pages" covered a variety of related topics, not just bleeding brakes and grease, so your basic premise is incorrect.

No one is forcing you to read anything. Bored, and a real expert? Nothing to contribute? Great! Then move on to a thread worthy of your superior knowledge and skills.

"At the end of the day, you will never notice a difference in how you collapse a caliper, what grease you use..."

Oh, Ok, good to know, I used a clamp on the brake line to close it so I didn't lose any fluid, collapsed the pistons with a cold chisel on the back of the rotor, hung the calipers from the brake line, smeared the caliper pins and boots with regular chassis lube, used blue locktight on all the bolts not just the bracket, didn't torque anything, and greased up the pistons with anti-seize; they work nice 'n slick now (I just "got 'er done!" Real quick too Vern!)

But, sarcasm mode OFF, there's no doubt some of this went on longer than it had to, as I like to really understand things, in detail. I don't half bake anything. If that bothers you, and it's clear that it does, why not just ignore the discussion and move on to another thread? Thanks.

(Well, what do you know? Now we're up to FIVE pages. Damn!)


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[Spectragod]

Got a Link?



Link.....

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20170721/92e47ab5e31e016696c13fd142331a 09.jpg


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[Svashtar]

Gotta save that one. :-)


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