cam trigger wheel phase altered by degreeing cams?

[lifespeed]

Lowndex is getting some cam sensor error codes, maybe he can post the number. What could cause this?

While degreeing the cams changes the angle of the camshafts relative to the crank and crank trigger, what does this do to the relationship between the crank trigger and cam trigger? What happens to the phase of the trigger wheel when the cams are degreed? My memory of the timing gear setup isn't sharp enough to remember how the trigger wheels are referenced to the crank. From what I remember from Livernois, I think they use Cloyes timing gears with the Ford Racing timing kit.

When degreeing a cam, does the angle of the cam trigger wheel change relative to the crank? Maybe the computer is smart enough to notice a change in phase relationship between crank and cam signals and throw a code? Never heard of anything like this happening, but not too many here mess with degreeing cams.

[mm svt]

I’d say the timing needs redone, comp cams makes a 4v adjustable cam gear set, it’s good for up to 12* advance or retard. These gears make timing advances easier.

https://www.lethalperformance.com/comp-cams-4-6l-5-4l-sohc-dohc-adjustable-cam-gear-set.html?gclid=EAIaIQobChMI24e sv9qI2wIVWJ7ACh26CQJkEAQYCiABE gJFM_D_BwE

[Seneca]

Lowndex is getting some cam sensor error codes, maybe he can post the number. What could cause this?

While degreeing the cams changes the angle of the camshafts relative to the crank and crank trigger, what does this do to the relationship between the crank trigger and cam trigger? What happens to the phase of the trigger wheel when the cams are degreed? My memory of the timing gear setup isn't sharp enough to remember how the trigger wheels are referenced to the crank. From what I remember from Livernois, I think they use Cloyes timing gears with the Ford Racing timing kit.

When degreeing a cam, does the angle of the cam trigger wheel change relative to the crank? Maybe the computer is smart enough to notice a change in phase relationship between crank and cam signals and throw a code? Never heard of anything like this happening, but not too many here mess with degreeing cams.
Who degreed the cams? Does it seem to.run okay other then codes?

[RubberCtyRauder]

..........

[Lowndex]

Who degreed the cams? Does it seem to.run okay other then codes?


KC at BRG Racing.


Runs awesome.

[Lowndex]

why is a speed, race shop asking cam degreeing errors? not being an a $$ here, but someone has been paying an awful lot of money to not have the shop figure it out. longest engine build in history of building motors, with price tag to boot


This is about the Marauder ECU throwing an error codes (P1174, P1175) unfamiliar to the mechanic on duty. The wiring, connectors and fuses are all new, but have been double checked from ECU to sensor.

Here is what I found with Google:
http://p1174.obdcodes.me/mercury-marauder
http://p1175.obdcodes.me/mercury-marauder

Looking for Panther expertise! Whomever gives me the correct answer gets $$$!

KC is on vacation in Montana. So, I can sit around two weeks and wait or get some help now from our members.

[lifespeed]

Who degreed the cams? Does it seem to.run okay other then codes?


That's a good question for Lowndex. Livernois didn't do the long block, right? KC assembled the heads to the block and degreed the cams?


As far as I can tell the reluctor bump on the timing gear for the cam position sensor does not move with cam degree adjustments. The adjustment is at the interface to the cam, leaving the relationship between the crank sensor and cam sensor unchanged with cam adjustment.


However, adjusting cam timing (or plain old making a mistake) by moving the chain off a tooth would change the relationship between the cam and crank signals.

[Lowndex]

That's a good question for Lowndex. Livernois didn't do the long block, right? KC assembled the heads to the block and degreed the cams?
Correct.



As far as I can tell the reluctor bump on the timing gear for the cam position sensor does not move with cam degree adjustments. The adjustment is at the interface to the cam, leaving the relationship between the crank sensor and cam sensor unchanged with cam adjustment.


However, adjusting cam timing (or plain old making a mistake) by moving the chain off a tooth would change the relationship between the cam and crank signals.
I will pass your input along.

[lifespeed]

In the dinosaur days of pushrod big block Chevys it was not unusual to use not only the offset keyways to degree a cam, sometimes the chain was deliberately jumped a tooth to arrive at the right cam timing due to tolerances in manufacturing of the crank and cam.


If the gear alignment is off by a tooth the crank vs. cam signal timing will be altered, even though the cam timing may (or may not) be degreed correctly. So it may still run well. The cam position sensor only needs to tell the PCM compression stroke vs exhaust, it doesn't need to be super accurate to fire the injector and coil correctly. Accuracy comes from the crank trigger.


However, cars are supposed to use their sensors and computer to be somewhat self-diagnostic. I know for a fact if the timing chain in my 3.6L DOHC Cadillac V6 stretches beyond acceptable limits, it will detect it using the cam and crank signal relationship and throw a code.


I guess there is a possibility your cam gear is a tooth off, and the PCM notices. I would like to get a better definition of those codes than that web link you posted, if possible.

[musclemerc]

Lowndex is getting some cam sensor error codes, maybe he can post the number. What could cause this?

While degreeing the cams changes the angle of the camshafts relative to the crank and crank trigger, what does this do to the relationship between the crank trigger and cam trigger? What happens to the phase of the trigger wheel when the cams are degreed? My memory of the timing gear setup isn't sharp enough to remember how the trigger wheels are referenced to the crank. From what I remember from Livernois, I think they use Cloyes timing gears with the Ford Racing timing kit.

When degreeing a cam, does the angle of the cam trigger wheel change relative to the crank? Maybe the computer is smart enough to notice a change in phase relationship between crank and cam signals and throw a code? Never heard of anything like this happening, but not too many here mess with degreeing cams.

I degreed my cams the old fashion way by grinding and cutting new keys. Never had any issues with the triggers.

I have 98 cobra cams FYI.

[Lowndex]

A new error code reported: P0340.

[lifespeed]

P0340 - Camshaft Position (CMP) Sensor Circuit Malfunction (Bank 1) The test fails when the PCM can no longer detect the signal from the CMP sensor on Bank 1.

There is no listing in the service manual for P1174, 1175.

Maybe swap the sensor for a known good one? While it is out rotate the engine to TDC on #1 and look through the hole for the trigger tooth.

[justgod]

Any wiring harness chaffing on the back of the head? Never had issues after degreeing my aftermarket cams. Unless you have the TFS adjustable crank gears, the exhaust gear trigger position doesn’t change. It still wouldn’t cause codes unless something was really wrong. You have to remember, there’s a lot of ponies out there with the same cam/crank sensors running some crazy cams without these issues

[Mr. Man]

Call Mo's maybe Jeff has a thought.

[Lowndex]

Thank you, all. I will try Lifespeed's idea. If not resolved, time to call a Panther expert: Mo.

[Lowndex]

I called Marty's mobile and left a voice message asking for help. Essentially, I am offering to hire Marty (pay hourly labor rate) to counsel BRG Racing.

[musclemerc]

Tell them to drop them in D2D and be done with it.

They don't know how to degree cams on a 4v. Never should have offered you the service.

Hope you didn't get any piston to valve slap. Your Livernoise warranty would be void.

[justgod]

It isn't that hard :D 110/118 on the button...


http://www.modularfords.com/album.php?albumid=1041&attachmentid=167865

[lifespeed]

Tell them to drop them in D2D and be done with it.

They don't know how to degree cams on a 4v. Never should have offered you the service.

Hope you didn't get any piston to valve slap. Your Livernoise warranty would be void.


Can you confirm (or not) the PCM can detect an out-of-spec relationship between crank trigger and cam sensor, and this will set the cam sensor code? Never heard of it in the context of the 4.6L 4V, but that could just be because nobody has screwed it up.

[musclemerc]

It isn't that hard :D 110/118 on the button...


http://www.modularfords.com/album.php?albumid=1041&attachmentid=167865

For a Ford man no..... Anyone else it's foreign on a DOHC. Especially if they used a small diameter. wheel

[justgod]

lmao, did they swap DS and PS cam drive gears? I'll have to go home and see if you can even do that. lol

[Lowndex]

Marty and Jeff called BRG Racing and shared what to inspect. A follow up will be help Friday morning.

[martyo]

I’ve been speaking to KC, one of his techs, and my partner Jeff.

It’s a love fest I tell ya!

After we check a few things we will have more to report.

It’s not an interference issue as far as I know, so nothing to worry about there. :)

[Lowndex]

The cam gear set chosen has teeth too short - not close enough to the cam sensor. The problem is being addressed. Many thanks to Marty, Jeff and Clay.

[mm svt]

Is it sensor not long enough? Seems like I’ve seen different length ones.

[musclemerc]

The cam gear set chosen has teeth too short - not close enough to the cam sensor. The problem is being addressed. Many thanks to Marty, Jeff and Clay.


I had no idea they made different length gear teeth for C head cams.

Been around a long time and thought I'd seen it all..... Nope.... I didn't....

[Lowndex]

Is it sensor not long enough? Seems like I’ve seen different length ones.

Are there different length ones available? Anybody?

This would save a lot of time and $.

[mm svt]

I’d say they are the same length

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180520/f81b5d2fd41007deec645a87e96798 e1.jpg

99 cobra, 03 cobra, 03 Marauder cam position sensors. The crank sensor is much longer and offset

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180520/3d37a122b9f22c266f30319eff79b4 84.jpg

All the same plugins even the crank sensor

[justgod]

That one big bump on the gear face you see in the last picture it what triggers the sensor, not any gear teeth. The statement does not make any sense.

[lifespeed]

The cam gear set chosen has teeth too short - not close enough to the cam sensor. The problem is being addressed. Many thanks to Marty, Jeff and Clay.


I had no idea they made different length gear teeth for C head cams.

Been around a long time and thought I'd seen it all..... Nope.... I didn't....


I’d say they are the same length


That one big bump on the gear face you see in the last picture it what triggers the sensor, not any gear teeth. The statement does not make any sense.


The tooth in question is the trigger for the magnetic pickup. I'm not sure who made the cam gear in Lowndex's engine, but it appears to have been made without any engineering or even an understanding of the basics. The cam trigger tooth moves with cam timing adjustment, which may be a questionable thing to do from the perspective of the PCM. Neither Cloyes nor Comp Cams moves the cam trigger with cam timing adjustment. Also, the trigger tooth does not extend radially far enough towards the outer edge of the cam gear in order to sweep past the cam sensor magnetic pickup. I've got a photo but I'll leave it up to Lowndex if he wants to post it.



Personally, I think half the aftermarket parts out there are junk designed by idiots. But you can't build a hot rod engine without aftermarket parts. The trick is to know which ones aren't junk.

[justgod]

That does suck. That’s enough to drive you nuts. There are gears that change the trigger gear in relation to the cam though, I’ve used them before. TFS billet adjustable crank gears.
https://www.trickflow.com/parts/tfs-51800505

[musclemerc]

I’d say they are the same length

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180520/f81b5d2fd41007deec645a87e96798 e1.jpg

99 cobra, 03 cobra, 03 Marauder cam position sensors. The crank sensor is much longer and offset

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180520/3d37a122b9f22c266f30319eff79b4 84.jpg

All the same plugins even the crank sensor

Yep.... Many years... No difference.....


That one big bump on the gear face you see in the last picture it what triggers the sensor, not any gear teeth. The statement does not make any sense.

Your right, does not make any sense

[Lowndex]

"If you look at the two different brand gears below, you see Lowndex's gear (2nd pic) moves the cam sensor with the angle of the cam (degreeing). The Comp Cams gears do not alter the relationship between the cam and crank signals, while still allowing the cams to be degreed. It looks like a small change in angle, but the Ford computer may see that as excessive timing chains stretch and call it an error condition."

Lifespeed

https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/922/6zBNlZ.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/pm6zBNlZj)


https://imagizer.imageshack.com/v2/800x600q90/921/T5kC4y.jpg (https://imageshack.com/i/plT5kC4yj)

[lifespeed]

Here are some clear photos. Waveform out of the cam sensor needs to be checked, although a solid signal won't prove that cam signal alignment is not a problem. Should confirm tooth/sensor function though.


Lowndex cam gear, unknown brand:
https://outrageousoutgrowns.com/media/photos/marauder_cam_gear/lowndex_cam_gear.jpg




Lifespeed cam gear Cloyes Hex-A-Just:
https://outrageousoutgrowns.com/media/photos/marauder_cam_gear/cam secondary driver front IMAG0642.jpghttps://outrageousoutgrowns.com/media/photos/marauder_cam_gear/cam timing degreed IMAG0650.jpg

[mm svt]

Looks like it’s picking up on the adjuster bolts as well as the trigger

[justbob]

It also appears to be not be close enough to the outer portion for a good reading.

Although the sensors shown above prove to be all the same, what about placement on the cover for different 4V’s? If there is slight differences but close enough for stock gears, then I think you found the problem..


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[justgod]

Looks like it’s picking up on the adjuster bolts as well as the trigger

There’s an interesting thought. Even though the bolt heads are level with the gear face, would the space on either side allow for the fluctuation to be picked up? Hmmmmm. Still, you’d think there’d be a lot of mustangs out there that have encountered this.

[mm svt]

The placement of the sensor is the same
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180521/b4dd2ded26ebb8c284dfebddb98e18 88.jpg

[mm svt]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20180521/1981344674ce89a687cccbe1895511 49.jpg

Looks close enough to me

[justgod]

I wonder if you put a washer under the sensor to put it just out of reach of the bolts to test if that's the case. You should still get enough when the big bump passes under the coil to send a signal. It's an easy test anyway.

[lifespeed]

Looks like it’s picking up on the adjuster bolts as well as the trigger


That is a good point, the bolts do look close enough to trigger the cam pos sensor. Hopefully Lowndex's hired gun puts a scope on the sensor output today.

[Grimrepairman]

Are the bolts stainless? If so, should be non magnetic depending on the grade used and unable to trigger the sensor.
Checking/ adjusting sensor height is a good idea. Seen a few bone stock vehicles which needed adjustment with replacement sensors.

[Lowndex]

The problem has been identified: picking up the adjuster bolt and gear tooth. The cam gear is from MMR and to their site shows a slightly different mount for the sensor. KC feels he has a simply solution and should be resolved quickly.

http://www.modularmotorsportsracing.c om/cart/index.php?main_page=product_in fo&cPath=3&products_id=216

[martyo]

The problem has been identified: picking up the adjuster bolt and gear tooth. The cam gear is from MMR and to their site shows a slightly different mount for the sensor. KC feels he has a simply solution and should be resolved quickly.

https://goo.gl/images/REnCjb

That link brings up an image of a Mustang cowl hood.

[Lowndex]

That link brings up an image of a Mustang cowl hood.

Fixed and thank you.

Problem was resolved 5/21.

[lifespeed]

Fixed and thank you.

Problem was resolved 5/21.


It's running without cam sensor codes now?

[justgod]

It's running without cam sensor codes now?

It must have been the large cam drive gear causing the problem since he got the MMR adjustable timing kit he linked in his post and no more issues.

[Lowndex]

It's running without cam sensor codes now?


Yes - code resolved

[Lowndex]

It must have been the large cam drive gear causing the problem since he got the MMR adjustable timing kit he linked in his post and no more issues.


It was the bolts - they were too high causing false signals.

[Lowndex]

I wonder if you put a washer under the sensor to put it just out of reach of the bolts to test if that's the case. You should still get enough when the big bump passes under the coil to send a signal. It's an easy test anyway.


Sensor is fine; bolt length was the problem.

[Lowndex]

Are the bolts stainless? If so, should be non magnetic depending on the grade used and unable to trigger the sensor.
Checking/ adjusting sensor height is a good idea. Seen a few bone stock vehicles which needed adjustment with replacement sensors.


Yes, the bolts were and new ones are stainless steel.