6-8 psi S/C, no intercooler needed

[tmac1337]

I have been reading up about superchargers on the internet. I have read over and over again that you do not need an intercooler in a supercharger kit if you are running 8 psi or less. Roots systems are less efficient and heat up air more than a centrifugal system. If you want a racer, a quarter mile car and run up around 10 psi or more then a intercooler is needed.

But what about us members that want to supercharge but are hesitant because of the high cost? If you are more interested in a lot more RWHP and TQ, I would estimate between 75-100, but do not mind running at 6-8 psi and have no plans to go to the track, you can probably downgrade the kit, save some money w/o need to intercool (along w/ subsequent plumbing and hardware) and be very happy with a much faster car. Your probably only going to be into maximum boost for only a few seconds anyway when you stomp on it.

I am currently researching how much a 6-8 psi Vortech kit would cost on the internet. Some other accessories like fuel injectors would be needed of course.

I am no mechanic or supercharger guru, just reading the info. that's available from those who are.

I maybe way off base, but maybe not. Comments anyone?

[big_D]

could some one explain the difference between the 300a and 300b and
what options they come with

[BillyGman]

tmac, I understand that you're balking at spending the $$ required for the two main types of S/Cer kits that are offered from vendors on this board, but just keep in mind, that the more corners that you cut while attempting to save a buck, then the more complicated you're going to make things for yourself, and the more likely you'll be to increase the risks involved w/Supercharging your engine.

I say "risks" because any time that you add 100+ HP to an engine you're involving some degree of risk, weather it be via S/Cing, or another way. However, such risks are atleast somewhat minimized when you purchase an entire kit, and one that has been designed specifically for the make and model of your car.


You can't just purchase a Supercharger by itself, and slap it on your engine, and expect your car to run right, or even run at all. Whatever type of S/Cer you decide on, you would do well to buy ONLY a S/Cer that comes in a complete kit that's specifically for the Marauder. W/out a complete kit you're going to have to become your own engineer,or hire one, and it just isn't worth it IMO. Furthermore, you'll be taking a bigger risk of engine damage since you're paving your own way, and breaking new ground. if that's what you want to do, then that's all good, but it has to be w/that goal in mind, and NOT simply to cut costs. If the primary goal which guides you in this potential project is simply to save money, then you'll be likely to purchase and install something that would ultimately increase the risk factors.

To my knowledge, the only two complete S/Cer kits available for the Marauder are from Trilogy Motorsports, and from Dennis Reinhart. Even if you didn't go w/an intercooler, there are other things that you'll need. What about an ignition timing re-curve as well as an air/fuel ratio change that is mandatory for the safety and preservation of a S/Ced engine? All of that needs to be dialed into the computer by means of a computer re-flash or a chip which would come w/a complete kit. But w/out a kit you'll need to go to someone that will do that for you, and just hope that the person in question has enough experience w/Supercharged engines to be able to burn the chip you really need. If the air/fuel ratio, and/or the ignition timing is off too much, then you'll melt or crack your pistons, or blow a head gasket in that order.

If you really want to do your homework, then stay away from any websites IF they have something to sell you. Here are two good books to read on the subject.......

"Street Supercharging" by Pat Ganahl, and "Supercharged!" by Corky Bell. the latter is extremely detailed, and gets into the design considerations, as well as the mathmatical equations that must all be considered before Supercharging your vehicle.

"Effster" is the only member here who installed a S/cer w/out a kit, and he was the first one to tell me that not only was it a hassle, but he said that he doesn't even know if it was all worth it. And that statement was coming from a guy who is part owner of a speed shop, and who is a profesiional mechanic himself.

[MARAUDER S/C #5]

could some one explain the difference between the 300a and 300b and
what options they come with
Why not start a new thread on this ???????? :confused: :shake:

[Haggis]

To my knowledge, the only two complete S/Cer kits available for the Marauder are from Trilogy Motorsports, and from Dennis Reinhart.



You forget about Kenny Brown, who does the whole package to include tires, brakes and lowering the car 1"-1.5". Check out their website, they are also a sponsor here.

http://www.kennybrown.com/

[sailsmen]

I just finished reading "SUPERCHARGERED!" by Corky Bell.

It's a great book and a must read for anyone considering a supercharger.

[martyo]

Why not start a new thread on this ???????? :confused: :shake:

I agree with Rick on this one, and you can do a quick search on the term "300B" but just as a quick course on the issue, you should note the follwoing:


Welocome aboard randolphfj2. This might help:

300A all black with dark charcoal interior and has these features:
full size spare (front sized-tire on a painted rim)
front seat map pockets
locking gas door
stand alone clock
automatic e-brake release with manual override handle
underhood light

Options limited to:
6 disc CD changer
Trunk organizer
rear wing (dealer installed)

300B black, blue or silver with either dark charcoal or light flint interior
came with traction control and deleted the options stated above except for the very early ones that just deleted the full size spare.

one option added to the group:
Heated front seats

2003 production figures:
black 7094
blue 328
silver 417
__________
total 7839

[Donny Carlson]

I have been reading up about superchargers on the internet. I have read over and over again that you do not need an intercooler in a supercharger kit if you are running 8 psi or less. Roots systems are less efficient and heat up air more than a centrifugal system. If you want a racer, a quarter mile car and run up around 10 psi or more then a intercooler is needed.
I've been told this as well, and by a very knowledgeable source. In fact, I am working on getting a Vortec S/C in "s" trim at this very time.

[Donny Carlson]

You can't just purchase a Supercharger by itself, and slap it on your engine, and expect your car to run right, or even run at all. Whatever type of S/Cer you decide on, you would do well to buy ONLY a S/Cer that comes in a complete kit that's specifically for the Marauder. W/out a complete kit you're going to have to become your own engineer,or hire one, and it just isn't worth it IMO. Furthermore, you'll be taking a bigger risk of engine damage since you're paving your own way, and breaking new ground. if that's what you want to do, then that's all good, but it has to be w/that goal in mind, and NOT simply to cut costs. If the primary goal which guides you in this potential project is simply to save money, then you'll be likely to purchase and install something that would ultimately increase the risk factors.

To my knowledge, the only two complete S/Cer kits available for the Marauder are from Trilogy Motorsports, and from Dennis Reinhart. Even if you didn't go w/an intercooler, there are other things that you'll need. What about an ignition timing re-curve as well as an air/fuel ratio change that is mandatory for the safety and preservation of a S/Ced engine? All of that needs to be dialed into the computer by means of a computer re-flash or a chip which would come w/a complete kit. But w/out a kit you'll need to go to someone that will do that for you, and just hope that the person in question has enough experience w/Supercharged engines to be able to burn the chip you really need. If the air/fuel ratio, and/or the ignition timing is off too much, then you'll melt or crack your pistons, or blow a head gasket in that order.It is true that two Marauder "kits" that are available are from Trilogy and Reinhart, but their are others who offer s/c for the car (Kenny Brown, Sean Hyland, VT). In fact, Vortec lists the only two "authorised" second party vendors for Marauder Vortec kits as Reinhart and Kenny Brown.

And I agree that it is foolhardy to try to order up parts and try to s/c the car yourself, unless you know what you are doing. My source, though, has extensive s/c experience, having installed literally hundreds of s/c's in Mustangs and F-150's, and has all those things you mention in your post at hand. If he says no intercooler is needed when boost is under a certain range, I believe him and trust that he's telling the truth. I'm willing to put my VERY expensive engine at risk, but only because of my faith in his expertise.

[TAF]

All I know...there already have been and there are soon to be a LOT of really cool/fast Marauders coming out of the South...from a group of the BEST collective of minds for our cars who happened to be gathered in one spot. :up::burnout:

It's "things that make you say WOW!" ;) :cool:

[Marauderman]

I've been told this as well, and by a very knowledgeable source. In fact, I am working on getting a Vortec S/C in "s" trim at this very time.
Wooohoo Donny!!!!!!!!! Great for you!!! But ..huh..whose this "source" you keep mentioning?...Why so secret?....He's that good..let all know!!!.....in any event--your gonna love that S/C 'er....trust me....remember!!!!.......Tom

[BillyGman]

A couple of you mentioned kenny Brown, but the only reason why I didn't make mention of Kenny Brown is because tmac obviously is looking to save $$ here, and Kenny brown does a lot more to Marauders than just Supercharging. Therefore that would be the most expensive route for tmac to take. What I mean is to my knowledge kenny brown offers only one package for the marauder, and it isn't just S/Cing it. Please feel free to correct me on that IF I'm mistaking.


Eveyone is entitled to their opinions on this Supercharging thing, but as for me, I'd rather stick to the two companies that have Supercharged more Marauders than anyone else. And that's Trilogy motorsports who've sold 40 or so S/Cers to marauder owners, and Reinhart automotive who has sold atleast 20 of them to my knowledge, and perhaps even more. Why go to someone else who would be breaking new ground by developing a S/Cer for your car when you can go to one of these two companies right here who have already done the engineering, and research & development required to produce a powerful yet rel;atively safe S/Cer system specifically for the Marauder? Again, you can include Kenny brown in that list also if it's a centrifugal S/Cer that you prefer, as long as you also prefer all the extras that Kenny Brown does to your car besides the Supercharger system.

[tmac1337]

Billy, this is not about saving money. That is not an issue for me. I am merely saying that the kits by the vendors out there already are excellent. I know that. I do think there is some savings to be had though. If a person can be satisified with less boost, max 8 psi there is no intercooling needed and you can still put together an excellent kit for less from what I found. It sounds like others are looking into the possibility as well. A quality kit minus intercooling if you dont need it. Nothing wrong with that. You have an excellent car now. No question money well spent. But I think there are others who would be very happy with less. SCT tuning software is out there to tune later and adjust ignition time re-curve, air/fuel ratio and so forth. You still will need larger fuel injectors, possibly a larger fuel pump, and some pipe work. I'm not talking about cutting corners at all in quality, just minusing the intercooling if a person is happy being around 400 RWHP if you already have the mods like I have.

The only reason I started the thread because I'm interesting in charging myself and this is what I noted when reading up. Of course someone knowledgeable with tuning and installing would have to do the job, I would not try to do it myself. Running at less boost would also be safer for a car for those interested in a mid range of charging. Why is this not already been done? I'm just exploring possibilities.

I maybe way off base in this thread since I am no mechanic myself. It's good that people respond and throw the idea around however.

[BillyGman]

tmac, I don't blame you for starting such a thread at all. It's great that you did that to get feedback from other Marauder owners before flying off to experiment w/out first seeking knowledge from others. And that's what this board is great for. I just think that you're overlooking the importance of proper tuning. You can't re-tune your car w/an SCT tuner yourself to adjust for the addition of a S/Cer. Is that what you meant?


You say you want 400 RWHP? Did i read that right? That's exactly what my car is making. And if you want to use a S/Cer to make 400 RWHP w/out the use of an intercooler, I think you're asking for disaster!!! You say that money isn't an issue, and that saving money isn't the topic here? Well if that's the case, then why in the world wouldn't you want to keep the S/Ced intake air as cool as possible by the use of an intercooler? By avoiding the use of an intercooler you ARE cutting corners weather you realize it or not.

Let me point something out to you that you might not realize, or you might be forgetting. The number one potential danger to the S/Ced engine is detonating (pinging) caused by heat. that's why the ignition timing curve has to be different in a S/Ced engine than in a N/A engine, and that's also the reason why it has to run a richer fuel/air ratio than a N/A engine does. So intercooling is always a good idea in a S/Ced engine.

I think it's probably going to be a very TALL order for you to acheive 400 RWHP out of a S/Ced 4.6L engine from merely 8PSI of boost, especially w/out intercooling, unless you go w/a twin screw S/Cer like Effster has. But like I've previously pointed out to you, there are no twin screw S/Cer kits available for the Marauder.

[tmac1337]

Billy, first off this whole thread is hypothetical. I would not try to tune myself and do not have the means. If someone did try to supercharge w/o the intercooler and run 8 PSI or less you would have to get a tune by someone who knows what they are doing. I do not know if a 8 PSI max charger will get another 75-100 RWHP and TQ, just a guess. I thought that the kits being sold today have been running around 10 PSI and are being restrained at accumulating 450 RWHP so the engine will not blow.

Again, just noted that on a lot of internet sites, an intercooler is not needed or recommended if you run 8 psi or less as heat is not a factor. If that is true then proper tuning will not make pinging/detonation an issue as the heat is not there (Vortech also run using less heat buildup).

This thread simply implies maybe people can S/C for less w/o the intercooler. I'm with you in thinking that your running with a great kit. Thats why they have been selling so well, flying off the shelf I hear. Your happy with your setup, I would be too. I just mean that if a good reliable safe kit was available w/o the intercooler lots of people might line up to buy it. And if they could live w/ less horsepower than the current kits offer using less boost which I would think would have less wear and tear on the car, they in all probability be happy and save a couple grand. It appears that the kits available are directed to impressive maxed HP and quarter mile times. Nothing wrong with that, right up my alley. But most of us have no intentions to race or go to the track and could be very happy with less. Would I be one of them. I don't know. Just kicking the info. I learned around. Someone mentioned a Vortech S Trim charger, available in the 3k range. The S Trim is a reliable general application charger. Can it be applied. I do not know. Someone please comment if you do, thats what the thread is for.

Would I cut corners on my car over a couple grand, never! But if from what I read if it was not cutting corners, a hypothetical safe kit, and wanted more HP w/o ideas of racing or needing the fastest car around while keeping a well balanced car, I would at least look it over.

The only thing I see thats needed from this hypothetical kit is a mount frame and tubing, everything else is available. I do not know if such a kit would work on our cars, but several people who frequently visit this site do and I'm wondering why they have not commented and remain silent.

Thanks for commenting yourself Billy, you have what it takes to step up, discuss, and learn. As for myself I like this thread, just ordered the Sean Hyland book to read, and hopefully some of what I post makes some sense.

Comments anyone?

[Donny Carlson]

Wooohoo Donny!!!!!!!!! Great for you!!! But ..huh..whose this "source" you keep mentioning?...Why so secret?....He's that good..let all know!!!.....in any event--your gonna love that S/C 'er....trust me....remember!!!!.......Tom
I think to post his name -- and place of business -- would violate vendor rules here. This person is not running a business that installs superchargers per se, but he, personally, has installed a lot of them and is very qualified.

There is nothing wrong with the Vortec or Triology kits, both are excellent, and I wouldn't hesitate to install either one if I had the money.

But, I've been shown a way that suits my use of my car, has limitations, true, but those limitations are well in the range of use of my car. And, most importantly, I have great faith that what he tells me is true and will work.

PM me if you want his name/number.

[stevengerard]

tmac1337, I see where you are going. As my car is breaking in I feel it getting faster yet I would like more. Though as a daily driver and a family car I can only go "so far" with it. I have never raced at a track yet hopefully will this year, but I have to be realistic about time, dollars and practicality of the car. I'd guess a few more people would buy the system you suggest but I don't think that many more will. Thus not enough ROI for a company to put it together. Many of the folks on this board are happy the MM is discontinued. I do like that you don't see one often but I can't imagine the DR's and Jerry's who have put together the S/C kits are feeling happy. The time and effort to go into this development only to have production stop. I'm sure there was a limited critical mass for a S/C anyway but this guarantees it.

My approach is to leave my car stock and strap on the S/C. I want a 12 second car and would love a 11 second car but as mentioned - which is what you are basing this thread on - for some of us there are diminishing returns on 1/4 mile times.

[TAF]

My understanding, from some very insightful and knowledgeable minds is what Tim is asking is more than doable...it's been done...on our motor...and will not be a problem.

I'm looking forward to the results when Donny, Tim or whomever steps up to the plate for this 'mid-range boost". It'll happen.

This, however...I don't feel would ever be a "kit" per say...but would be accomplished through utilizing experienced wrenches and tuners.

And, I'll tell you this...I have the BEST tune I've ever had on my Marauder...right now...and it didn't come from a vendor here.

[tmac1337]

If this thread goes somewhere and becomes reality, hopefully a parts list and at least one person who could be contacted for tubing could be found. The parts could be located on the net. The rest would be up to a member to find a good wrencher to put it together and someone to tune it properly. Free info. for the members. Is this within reach?

[BillyGman]

tmac, I just want to point out one additional thing. The HP #'s that the Trilogy and Reinhart S/Cer kits are offering do NOT make 450 HP at the wheels. 450 HP at the crankshaft is more like it. So your #'s are off on this as far as power output. The guys who are bringing the HP #'s up to 450 at the wheels, are the ones tweaking these S/Cer kits by installing smaller pullies on them to make the supercharger turn faster which delivers MORE than your stated 10 PSI. For example "MI2QWIK4U" has the smaller pulley, and his car is making 12 PSI of boost. But the standard Trilogy S/Cer kits deliver 385 HP to the wheels, NOT 450 HP like you've stated. My car is putting 400 HP to the wheels because of the addition of the headers, and perhaps also because of the Stallion Torque converter. Zack has also done things to tweak more power out of his Reinhart S/Cer, which is why he's getting 476 HP to the wheels. So what I'm saying is that the standard S/Cer kits from Trilogy and Reinhart are not pushing the Marauder engine as close to it's safe limits as you're claiming they are.

And it's the same thing w/the Kenny Brown Marauders. They've been advertised as putting out 450 HP, and 13.1 second 1/4 mile times. But that 450 isn't RWHP, but 450 HP at the crankshaft.

[David Morton]

My desire is to have the fastest car I can have and still be running on pump gas.

Boyle's Law says that the temperature of a gas will rise when it is compressed. Superchargers heat up the intake charge because they are compressing it. This by itself increases the octane requirement of the engine. If we can cool this charge back down to what it was before we compressed it, we go back to the original octane requirement.

Stock, my 2004 Marauder is running 10.1 to 1 comression. FMC engineers say use 91 octane with this engine. That's pretty amazing considering the fuel mileage this engine is capable of and probably has something to do with the cool running aluminum heads. I doubt if they are running rich mixtures to keep temperatures lower as this is an EPA factory set-up. Warranty concerns also tell me this is a very safe set-up as far as reliability goes, so 91 octane means we're covered for the dryest and hottest conditions.

So, I want a Trilogy Blower Kit. I want it before tires, headers, exhausts, convertor, or gears because the experienced BillyGman suggested it. (I'm good 'cause I'm teachable)

Then we can see what the tires, headers, exhausts, convertor and gears are worth if I decide 12.9 @ 105 (rough estimate) isn't enough.

[BillyGman]

okay Dave, thanks for the compliment, but I'm not going to suggest that anyone listens to me simply because of who or what I might or might not be. But if there's any time that I (or anyone else for that matter) tell you something that can be backed up w/logic, facts, and YES, perhaps even some experience, then by all means I think it's best to take notice rather than to argue simply for the sake of winning some debate.

I'm not neccessarily suggesting that anyone in this thread is guilty of that though. But I will say that although I don't claim to be an expert on these things nor am I an engine tuner, I have done a lot of my own homework on the subject of Supercharging before I ever made my own choice. That isn't to say that everyone has to make the same choice as I have made, but I'm simply saying that during my quest for information on all types of S/Cing, I have learned a few things along the way.

Do I still have some things to learn? Ofcourse I do. But I have obtained some knowledge on the topic. And I'm merely trying to help here.

Oh, BTW Dave, w/an otherwise stock Marauder, I think you should count on low 13's w/a S/Ced Marauder IF you're running on the factory street tires. If you get the P305 drag radials like I have, then high 12's will be within reach.

[duhtroll]

I for one am interested in a mid-range boost option. I might even pay for it. :P

However, cannot current kits simply be "dialed" down to 8PSI?

I have done all the reading on this, and I am not yet convinced that the longevity of the engine is not going to be seriously affected by installing a S/C. Everyone I have asked says "tune conservatively and it will last longer." Longer than what? 12 pounds boost? Yes. N/A? Nuh-uh.

I do not know if less boost solves that problem, but it's a question that I agree needs to be explored. I *don't* need to be running 11s and have the fastest MM around, but I definitely would pay for a mid range 8PSI boost IF the following two conditions are met:

1) The cost makes it worth going with a lesser "kit" (something I am not sure will happen)

2) The odds of major component failure decreases versus the current 10+ PSI kits out there. (same caveat)

I want my MM to be around for 200-250K miles. The engine should be able to handle that. I expect a transmission change in there. Other than that, I don't want to be replacing major pieces of it every 8-12 months after it hits 75K or so. Longevity is and always will be my #1 priority with this car, and the mods that I have done so are balanced to that. Every mod of course is a risk, but some mods are "deeper" into the jungle than others.

The low boost might just be my answer, if the numbers work.

I love that it's fast, but I love the styling even more and I want to keep it around a long, long time.

-A

[hitchhiker]

I am planning to spend around 10 grand later this year for the Trilogy / Lidio setup, 410's, some exhaust work, and etc.

Why?

Because I want it done right!

:beer:

Best Regards,

David

[BillyGman]

getting into the 11's on one hand, and merely running 6-8 PSI of boost on the other. You guys continue to speak of two extremes here. 10 PSI of boost alone will NOT get you an 11 second Marauder. I don't know how else to explain it to you. I'm close to the 11's because of the other mods I've done to the car as well. Namely, headers, converter, and 4.56 gears. With an otherwise stock Marauder, and certainly w/out 4.56's, you will NOT be near the 11's w/the Trilogy or the Reinhart S/cer kits the way they are shipped to the customer.


And if you expect to get 200K on your Marauder w/out engine work, then I don't think you should even consider any S/Cer at all even if it was offering only 4 PSI of boost. Infact I dunno if it's even realistic to expect that many miles on any Marauder period.

[David Morton]

Oh, BTW Dave, w/an otherwise stock Marauder, I think you should count on low 13's w/a S/Ced Marauder IF you're running on the factory street tires. If you get the P305 drag radials like I have, then high 12's will be within reach.Yeah, I've played around with hot-rods for 30yrs and thought the supercharger was the best first mod all along. It covers a lot of sins. While headers & exhaust help scavenging on a N/A engine they are a marginal improvement for a blown engine, especially with already stock duals like we have. Same thing with the convertor, add 100 ft/lbs @ 2500 and you instantly increased the stall of your stock convertor by 200-300 rpm.

Of course, I'm going to use these tires up but I'm hopeful the traction control may help me hook-up some. I want to try turning it off, heat 'em up, turn it back on and see what happens over at DeSoto Speedway. Of course I'll let you guys know but the Trilogy looks like two months away at least.

My plan for mods is, blower (check ET), driveshaft (over to Daytona for top end speed) & then we'll see.

I feel the need, the need for speed.

[sailsmen]

The amount of boost is just one factor that affects the engine longevity.

The biggest killer is detonation. You cannot always hear it. A tank of bad gas or a component failure can quickly kill an engine. MFF Mag's Lightning blew the motor on a 1/4 mile run due to a bad fuel pump relay not providing enough fuel resulting in a lean condition. They did not diagnois until the new engine was but on the dyno showing a lean condition.

A conservative tune, cool air and lower boost all help. As far as a cheaper kit it will not necessarily provide longer engine life, possibly shorten it by not having an intercooler.

Several kits are generating over 400 RWHP with less than 10 psi or "low- boost".

The price of a built long block is in the $7K range and used MM engines can be bought for a few grand.

Sean Hyland, "Ford Engines" excerpts

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

"block certainly should be adequate for moderate power levels of up to 600 hp"

"cast crank again shoul be adequate for applications up to 500 hp"

"another weak link in the 4.6 is the factory trigger wheel"

"my recommendation is to limit use of stock rods in engines of 450 hp or less"

"any detonation results in the piston self-destructing immediately"

"stock piston, when combined with a low-boost supercharger system ,10 psi or less, preferably intercooled, can provide long, trouble-free service"


"because one casting has traditionally been used for both banks, the water flow in the left head has been compromised slightly"

"Replacing the turbine pump with a Walbro gerotor pump is not a clever plan"

"The solution is the '03 Cobra twin fuel pump system"

"We have seen many stock pumps shatter the original powdered metal ( oil pump ) gears"

"Make certain the car has at least 1/2 tank of fuel in it if you are running at full power ( on an S/C engine)"

I put notes in ( ) to make sense of the excerpts. A well written and easy to follow book.

He builds 200+ 4.6 per year.

[tmac1337]

The reason for the thread was to explore the possibility. What amount of RWHP a 8 psi charger w/o intercooler would produce on our car is an unknown. If the Trilogy kit out there is producing less than 400 RWHP then the gains on a 8 psi charger w/o the cooler may not be worth the money. Still, noone with definate knowledge has responded to this thread even though it is obvious that there are probably scores of mustangs running around with 4.6 liter engines with chargers w/o intercoolers running 8 psi. If anyone knows of a good performance shop that installs chargers near you and has done so on dozens of 4.6 liter mustangs please contact them and report back. If it is true for a mustang is must also be true for a MM. The mounting bracket and tubing may be the difference. If a shop can be found that has installed such packages before an estimate of RWHP could be know with some accuracy at least. But the price may not be worth it when talking about a 2k difference with an unknown amount of HP until someone tries it.

One good thing about this forum is that we can discuss things on it, the bad thing is that there are limited vendors on this site. Competition and choice is always best. From what I have been reading this site is evolving and people are gravitating more toward people w/ knowledge in their own area who can get the same parts and install also. People are learning that they don't have to drink from the same well to get the same results. I for one am happy with all the mods I have purchased so far from a vendor but am always happy to see competition.

And if an 8 psi charger w/o intercooler is not practical for the money or is not a possibility, yes the 2 main vendors on this site both offer excellent packages and I would be proud to own either one of them.

[HookedOnCV]

I for one am interested in a mid-range boost option. I might even pay for it. :P

However, cannot current kits simply be "dialed" down to 8PSI?

I have done all the reading on this, and I am not yet convinced that the longevity of the engine is not going to be seriously affected by installing a S/C. Everyone I have asked says "tune conservatively and it will last longer." Longer than what? 12 pounds boost? Yes. N/A? Nuh-uh.

I do not know if less boost solves that problem, but it's a question that I agree needs to be explored. I *don't* need to be running 11s and have the fastest MM around, but I definitely would pay for a mid range 8PSI boost IF the following two conditions are met:

1) The cost makes it worth going with a lesser "kit" (something I am not sure will happen)

2) The odds of major component failure decreases versus the current 10+ PSI kits out there. (same caveat)

I want my MM to be around for 200-250K miles. The engine should be able to handle that. I expect a transmission change in there. Other than that, I don't want to be replacing major pieces of it every 8-12 months after it hits 75K or so. Longevity is and always will be my #1 priority with this car, and the mods that I have done so are balanced to that. Every mod of course is a risk, but some mods are "deeper" into the jungle than others.

The low boost might just be my answer, if the numbers work.

I love that it's fast, but I love the styling even more and I want to keep it around a long, long time.

-A

Spoken like a true conservative Mid-Westerner! Longevity over speed!

The reason I went with the kit I did was because it is a lower boost (6 PSI) and I wanted longevity also. AED's kit is an Eaton M90s Roots type blower. It comes with an intercooler as part of the kit. This is not the same blower that Trilogy is offering with their Marauder s/c kit. Theirs is an Eaton M112 - larger displacement, and a bit more efficient (less heat generated?).

Just to throw some numbers at you guys wondering about whether an intercooler is necessary or not...keep in mind that this is with 6 PSI of boost on a 4.6 2V (not the 4V in the Marauder), cast iron block instead of aluminum, but aluminum heads like the Marauder.

IAT (Intake Air Temperature) / ACT (Air Charge Temperature) - same thing.

IAT after a couple of WOT runs within 2-3 minutes of each other is 80-110 degrees OVER ambient temperatures This was very repeatable over several weeks with varying weather conditions. For example, the outside temps were 40 degrees and my IAT right after I let off the throttle was as high as 150*F. The factory EEC is programmed to start pulling timing as the IAT's start getting above 110 degrees or so, pulling as much as three degrees of spark in order to prevent unwanted detonation. At 150*F, 3 degrees of spark were pulled by the computer from my timing. From some calculations done and some real dyno numbers, this equates to around 30-40 RWHP.

This was all WITH a mechanical water pump that varies flow based on RPM, a 3 pass fin and tube heat exchanger, and a Spearco intercooler that fits the M90s.

This spring I added an additional 2 gallon coolant reservoir, replaced the mechanical pump with an electric intercooler pump used by the Lightning pickup, and added a Cobra heat exchanger in series with the previous heat excanger. My IAT's dropped to 40-50 degrees over ambient temps allowing me to run more timing and get more HP.

IAT's do affect HP in very real ways. They affect the longevity of the motor due to lowering the chance for detonation with lower air temperatures. I would say that an intercooler is a good investment if you are already spending money on a s/c anyway. Don't cut corners, and don't re-engineer stuff that others have already spent hundreds of hours designing and hundreds of more hours with practical experience figuring out what works and what doesn't. This last comment is in reference to buying a pre-packaged kit from someone vs. building a setup from scratch on-the-fly with a local speed shop.

Todd

[BillyGman]

Several kits are generating over 400 RWHP with less than 10 psi or "low- boost".

Well I don't know what kits you're talking about, but that doesn't include the Trilogy kit. And I can't help but wonder if those kits that are making that much power are as safe for your engine as The Trilogy and the Reinhart kits are. Nothing is what I would call fool proof as far as S/Cing goes, and like I've previously pointed out in this thread, there's always a risk factor, but look at how many Trilogy powered, and Reinhart powered cars there are out there. Send some PM's to the guys on this board who have installed those two S/Cer kits and ask them what they think, how many miles they've put on their Marauders since the S/Cer installations, and if they've had any engine problems, and I'm sure that you'll find that there hasn't been any major complaints w/either one of these two S/Cer systems.

That's what I did before I bought the Trilogy package. I PM'd, and telephoned 5 Trilogy customers, one of whom is from another board. Those customers have from 5K to 11K on their engines since the Trilogy installations, and ALL of them have NOT had any problems. And most of them have taken their cars racing at the track as well as driving them back and forth to work. You have to make sure that the engine tuner who burns the chip that comes w/the S/Cer that you choose is a conservative tuner like Lidio is who burns the chips for Trilogy. He doesn't tune S/Ced engines for maximum power at any cost to the owner. But he tunes for maximum SAFE power. I'm sure that Dennis Reinhart does the same. However I don't believe that this can be said for all engine tuners.

Incase you still don't grasp what I'm saying, here's an example: I can go to some engine tuners to get perhaps another 20-30 RWHP out of my Trilogy S/Cer. But it wouldn't be safe or low risk HP since they would have to lean the air/fuel mixture out and/or advance the ignition timing curve further in order to obtain that extra power. And some engine tuners will do that. And doing that would invite detonation ("pinging").

I agree w/you tmac that having competition amongst the vendors helps the consumer, but I'm just trying to give you a warning about going to other vendors for S/Cing that haven't worked as closely w/the Marauder engine as Trilogy motorsports, Lidio of Alternative Auto, and Dennis Reinhart have. I still don't understand why you would want to S/C your Marauder (be it "Hypothetical" or not) w/out intercooling it other than to save money since you've claimed that saving money isn't the issue here.

It's your car, and your choice to do what you will, but S/Cing w/out intercooling seems to be old hat to me. Why use old technology? Years ago street engines were S/Ced w/out intercooling because the S/Cer kits available didn't include intercoolers. But now there are companies who DO offer S/Cer kits w/intercoolers because it's a plus,and and benefitial to the longevity of the S/Ced engine as well as beneficial for making power. So why you would want to go backwards in time and choose older technology by opting for a S/Cer kit w/out an intercooler is beyond me.

But if I were you, I'd do what I can to determine weather or not the companies that are attempting to justify S/Cing w/out intercooling, are merely doing so simply because they don't offer intercoolers w/any of their S/Cer kits, or because they still have a number of S/Cer kits on their shelves which aren't intercooled that they need to sell. Or if they only have a kit for your Marauder which doesn't include an intercooler. Buyer beware. Good luck......

[sailsmen]

Logan - 437HP @10psi

MarauderMArk - 426HP @8psi

Zack - 476HP @10psi

[duhtroll]

First of all, I said getting 11s was not my goal. If it was I would have bought a Cobra and started from there.

Secondly, I will be disappointed if this engine does not go 200K. There is no reason why it should not. It is a proven engine and one of the more historically solid plants Ford has produced.

I said I didn't want to make MAJOR repairs other than a tranny, and that is not an unreasonable goal. I have taken several Ford engines past 150K with no transmission or other problems, and this should be no different. If anything this engine should last longer because I am looking out for it more, and I know more about it than I did "then."

I buy any new car, and it is expected to run 150K or I wouldn't have purchased it in the first place. Every car I have owned or driven a majority of those miles has done so.

Right now I am not wanting to absorb the cost of the kit plus major repairs as a result of the kit. Maybe in a year I'll have more $ and that won't matter too much to me.

If the risk balances the gain in my book, I'll buy. But then again that's what modding is all about. I do what I want, others do what they want. That's why this type of board and these discussions are so fun.

How many times on this board alone has someone said "not worth the time/effort/money," and then someone else gone and done just that with great results?

I believe it's possible to get more life out of a S/C engine by being more conservative, but by the time we find out if any of this is true or not, we'll be into the next generation of MMs.

Thanks,
-A

[BillyGman]

How many times on this board alone has someone said "not worth the time/effort/money," and then someone else gone and done just that with great results? Yes, I can certainly relate to that since I've been on the receiving end of it.

Sailsmen, you said there were several kits that produce 400 RWHP or more w/LESS than 10 PSI, but only one of the three examples you've listed fall in that catagory which is MarauderMarc according to what you've said, so let's stick w/his car for an example. I don't know what he has. What type of S/Cer is it, and is his car otherwise stock besides the S/Cer? If not, then that's the reason why he's past the 400 RWHP mark.

The only S/Ced Marauder that I know of that's producing well over 400 RWHP as a result of only 8 PSI is owned by "Effster" of this board, and that's simply because his S/cer of choice is a Kenne Belle Twin screw S/Cer which is the Lysholm S/Cer design, and makes more power per pound of boost than the roots type blower or the centrifugal blower. But Effster had quite a big hassle installing it since there isn't a kit available for Marauders for those S/Cers. But that's another story for another thread I guess.

[MikesMerc]

Ummmm....excuse me folks. The amount of "boost" a blower makes is only one factor in how much horspower is made (reliably). Boost boost boost is all I'm reading in this thread and little else that makes forced induction really work.

Can a simple 8 PSI blower be run without an intercooler...sure! Can the exact car with the 8 PSI with an intercooler make ALOT more power...you betcha!

Hell, if you want, you can throw a 12 PSI blower on without an intercooler.

The issue folks is how lean you can run the air/fuel ratio and what timing you can leave in....that is what will determine power output.

LOL...doesn't anyone remember the first Kenne Belle blowers for the 5.0 mustang crowd? A perfect example of what NOT to do. For those that do not recall, the original KB was a complete DOG. So much heat was produced from the blower that the air/fuel ratio had to be run way too fat, and all the timing had to be pulled out, so as not to detonate the car.

Only since KB added a great by pass valve and an inter cooler did the car make decent power for the boost it was making

And thats the point. It's not so much about how much boost your making, but how much power you get from it.

As for roots and screw blowers without intercoolers...forgetta 'bout it!

Centrifugal blowers make less heat and can indeed have successful applications without intercoolers. I know, I've had 2 other centifugally blown cars in the last 4 years. Niether had inter coolers and made good power.

BUT, the intercooler guys always made better power...always. A nice intercooled 8 PSI motor would smoke a non inter-cooled 12 PSI as long as both motors were tuned for the same level of reliability.

Can you put a non intercooled blower on the MM?...sure! Would you want too?.....I sure wouldn't! LOL....your are already starting off with a 10:1 motor that needs premium gas to avoid detonation. Now you wanna slap 8 psi on it without intercooling? Yes, it can be done, but you'd have to pull out so much timing and put in so much fuel your gains would be disappointing for the level of investment made. Yes...there would be a gain....but not as much as you might want to beleive for spending that kind of money.

Bottom line, the LAST place to save money on a supercharger is the elimination of the intercooler. You'd be far better off getting a smaller cheaper blower and cooling the boost to allow for healthy air/fuel ratios and timing curves. A intercooled 6 PSI would make more power than a non intercooled 9 PSI if both have reliable tunes.

Think about it.....

[BillyGman]

I was only talking about the Marauder engine. Nothing else, and how to make power safely. So that's why my focus was on the boost pressures almost exclusively.I mean the very title of this thread kinda set things up for a conversation about boost pressures anyway. So that was the focus. But what you've stated about intercooling, completely lines up w/my previous posts. Like I've already stated, I don't see any reason why you wouldn't want to have an intercooler, and that's been one of my points through this entire thread. But you seem to be the only one who understands why I've been saying that, so I have no argument nor debate w/you Mike.

[MikesMerc]

you seem to be the only one who understands why I've been saying that, so I have no argument nor debate w/you Mike.

Oh...please don't misunderstand my post! I wasn't responding to you at all! I should have made that more clear by addressing my post to "everyone". I was noticing that most folks in the thread were focused on boost PSI and not considering the other elements that make forced induction work well.

On the contrary, Billy, I agree with everything you have said in the thread my friend:)

[BillyGman]

cool........

[Donny Carlson]

I am planning to spend around 10 grand later this year for the Trilogy / Lidio setup, 410's, some exhaust work, and etc.

Why?

Because I want it done right!

:beer:

Best Regards,

David
And it will be done right. Lidio is perhaps the finest installer of Triolgy superchargers out there. You will doubtless be extremely please with your investment.

I do think, however, that it can be "done right" by my source as he as described it to me.

[Dennis Reinhart]

The Marauder motor has 10/1 compression with hypertectic pistons, with no after cooler the IAT on this motor can run over 150 to 200 degrees entering the throttle body, as temp increases the car is prone to spark knock and detonation you can decrease this buy pulling timing when you do this the power drops, if the car at WOT spark knocks long enough you will bust the ring lands on the pistons, so because you want to cut corners this can cost you a motor, I would not consider any SC kit for this car with out an after cooler it lowers the IAT allows for good timing and AF and you can make safe power if done right

[tmac1337]

Finally a vendor has stepped up with some facts. Thank you Dennis.

[MikesMerc]

Finally a vendor has stepped up with some facts. Thank you Dennis.

Ummmm....I think I had already said the same thing Dennis just did two posts above:confused:

Of course it is always nice to be validated by a professional.:)

[merc406]

Ummmm....I think I had already said the same thing Dennis just did two posts above:confused:

Of course it is always nice to be validated by a professional.:)



Sometimes less is more. :)

[sailsmen]

Marauderman - 8psi, 438HP, Reinhart S/C + shortyheaders

Maraudermark - 8psi, 426HP, Reinhart S/C + shorty headers

JohnFRusso - 9psi, 450HP, KB S/C.

All of the Reinhart Kits I am aware of are producing over 425HP @8psi.

[David Morton]

This is my understanding on the topic of "boost". It is to accomplish one thing and one thing only, get more oxygen into the cylinder. 8psi on one system isn't going to get more or less oxygen into the cylinder than 8psi on another system. 8 is always 8. With more oxygen we can add more fuel and get more power.

Detonation occurs when the intake charge is compressed and the temperature of it exceeds the point of spontaneous combustion causing it to explode before the spark plug is supposed to ignite it. The only factor that determines this point of spontaneous combustion is the "octane value" of the charge. Water vapor will increase the "octane value" of the charge, but it's dangerous to your engine if your tank runs out in the middle of a run. You could run 16psi if you're ready to gas up at the track w/104 octane fuel, maybe even get away without an intercooler too. Tuners can also run richer mixtures. Intercoolers are the high tech way of dealing with this problem because they solve the octane value problem by reducing the temperature of the air/fuel charge and preventing this point of spontaneous combustion from being reached before the spark event.

So, if one system is running 8psi and makes more power than another system with 8psi, there must be other factors involved.

Bottom line, intercoolers are a good thing, like girlfriends. Water vapor systems and racing gas are like wives, good but some require constant attention while others are very expensive to keep. :lol:

[tmac1337]

Yes you did say the same thing Mike, BRAVO. My post was in appreciation for the first VENDOR to post however. It takes a lot of nuts for a VENDOR to input because they get picked apart later. Thats why I thanked Dennis. Your award is in the mail.

[BillyGman]

Marauderman - 8psi, 438HP, Reinhart S/C + shortyheaders

Maraudermark - 8psi, 426HP, Reinhart S/C + shorty headers

JohnFRusso - 9psi, 450HP, KB S/C.

All of the Reinhart Kits I am aware of are producing over 425HP @8psi.okay, I'll have to take your word on that cuz I cannot say that you're wrong as far as Reinhart's S/cer kits go. As far as John Russo's making 450 HP, I didn't know that 450 HP claim of Kenney brown MM's was speaking of power at the wheels. I wonder at what RPM that peak 450 HP is acheived. I know that with the centrifugal S/cers the peak HP ratings tend to be accomplished at a higher RPM.

The funny thing is that MarauderMark's car turned a 13.46 at the track vs. my 12.2, and for having 25 more HP at the wheels than my car, you would think he would've done better. But there must be other factors at play here, such as choice of rear end gear ratios, and midrange HP levels being different between my car and his. Another thing too is his car having street radials vs. my car having drag radials. I'm sure that all these things are factors since there's such a considerable difference in our ET's

Anyway, thanks for the correction Sailsmen. And thanks to Dennis Reinhart for jumping in here to help out w/an answer and explanation.:up:

So I hope that clears up the question and suggestion about using "6-8 PSI of boost w/out an intercooler" on a Marauder. The important thing is that all of us learn about these things in order to help eachother out, and to further our common cause of modifying the mercury Marauder safely, and efficiently.:)

[MikesMerc]

Yes you did say the same thing Mike, BRAVO. My post was in appreciation for the first VENDOR to post however. It takes a lot of nuts for a VENDOR to input because they get picked apart later. Thats why I thanked Dennis. Your award is in the mail.

Understood! :beer:

Dennis knows what he is talking about here, and folks would be wise to heed his advice. Non intercooled applications are a poor choice for the MM.

[MikesMerc]

Marauderman - 8psi, 438HP, Reinhart S/C + shortyheaders

Maraudermark - 8psi, 426HP, Reinhart S/C + shorty headers

JohnFRusso - 9psi, 450HP, KB S/C.

All of the Reinhart Kits I am aware of are producing over 425HP @8psi.


It's all in the tune folks...all in the tune. DR kits are indeed intercooled which allow more timing and less fuel.

The tune is more important than the boost level.

[MikesMerc]

So, if one system is running 8psi and makes more power than another system with 8psi, there must be other factors involved.


If the systems are on the same car with all other things being equal, it is the TUNE that makes the difference. If both systems are tuned to be reliable, than the intercooled system will always produce more power...period. You can certainly get almost as much power from the non intercooled system, but it will burn down like a roman candle.

It's all in the TUNE, and the cooler the boost charge, the more aggressive a safe tune can be.

[sailsmen]

As stated above cooler air is densor which = more oxy and is less prone to detonation.

Dennis reports the intake air on his kits as being 10* above ambient.

An S/C does not increase the peak load on the rods by the HP increase, it does increase the amount of time the rods are under higher but less than peak loads.

[tmac1337]

Billy, I have noted your times with the Trilogy kit vs. times by those with a Vortech kit. The Vortech kits do appear to have more HP but are running the same times. Mike stressed the importance of a good tune. Are you guys using tunes that were custom programed for your individual vehicle or are you using the generic S/C program sent with the kit. Same goes for those using the Vortech setup?

The Trilogy appears to have HP and TQ earlier. If a Vortech was individually tuned would it also show comparable results low end or is that a drawback of a centrufugal unit? I have heard with a good tune that both units were comparable low end.

[sailsmen]

I suggest you read "SUPERCHARGED" by Corky Bell.

You are only getting bits and peieces. The book will give you a whole view of S/C and the different types, including intercooling.

A Roots is a displacement S/C. It is an air pump. It provides instant volume of air, particularly at the lower rpm range.

A Centrifigual is a turbo driven by a belt. It compresses the air. The faster it spins the more the air is compressed.

[sailsmen]

It is very difficult to compare 1/4 mile times to compare kits or mods. There are too many variables such as weather, tires, traction, driver, fuel and other mods.

You would need to race them side by side at the track to have any meaning.

I will probably always run .3 to .4 slower then the guys up North, it's in the upper 90's w/ 90+% humidity.

With either type kit you can develop over 400HP and low 12.0's in the 1/4.

[BillyGman]

I agree w/Sailsmen about that book. I've read it, and it's very good. To answer your questions, no I haven't obtained any Dyno tune at all. I simply am using the chip that was burned for my Trilogy kit.

My boost gauge registers 10 PSI of boost as soon as I hit the gas pedal. John Russo has told me that his Kenny brown Supercharged Marauder does NOT do that. There is a delay, and maximum boost pressure takes a little longer to acheive according to John. So that's coming from a Marauder owner himself who has a centrifugal S/Ced car. You want to argue w/that, then talk to John since he's the one who told me that.

The roots type makes more heat, but gives more mid-range and low-end punch. I don't see how anyone can deny that. It's claimed by many S/Cer authorities as well as vendors who sell BOTH types of S/Cers themselves. I would never automatically adopt the theory of anyone who only sells only the roots type or who sells only the centrifugal type. Talk to Lidio. He's sold the Vortech S/Cer for years, and still does, and he will tell you the same thing about the roots type S/Cer vs. the centrifugal S/Cer that I've just claimed.

BTW, I guess we can't compare air temperatures at the tracks since for some reason none of the centrifugal S/Ced Marauder owners listed in the timeslips data bank list have actually provided timeslips like the Roots type S/Ced Marauder owners have. I don't know why that is.:confused:

But then again, some timeslips don't even list the air temperature, whereas some do.

[MikesMerc]

The Trilogy appears to have HP and TQ earlier. If a Vortech was individually tuned would it also show comparable results low end or is that a drawback of a centrufugal unit? I have heard with a good tune that both units were comparable low end.

Not true whatsoever.

Both roots and screw type blowers produce boost in on a much flatter curve. Boost comes on strong at low blower rpms and reaches maximum boost early.

Centrifugal blowers, on the other hand, produce little boost at the low end but ramp to huge boost at the high end of the blower rpms.

The drawback to a roots/screw blower is that boost peaks quickly, flattens off, and actually begins to drop at high blower rpms. That and a lot of heat is created at the high end blower rpm range.

The key is what application are you looking for?

For the street, roots and screw types are generally better. They make plenty of boost without having to rev the engine very high. The low and mid rpm range of the motor is greatly enhanced. The top end gain is also nice, but modest compared to Centrifugal blowers.

Centrifugal blowers fit the track best where the motor is run at high rpms.

Can a centrifugal blower be "tuned" for the street? Sure....to an extent. However, the only way to do this is to get the engine rpms waaay up quickly in order to get the blower rpms up quicky to get to the boost curve. This can be done with short gears and high stall converters. The trouble is that you will sacrifice the low end of the rpm range for it will flash right by.

I've run both types of blowers enough to tell you that they feel very different by the seat of the pants. The roots blowers produce gobs of low end grunt and make the motor feel like a big block. Centrifugal blowers don't have the same bottom end, but they pull harder on the top end (and often make more peak hp because boost peaks closer to peak engine rpm).

The bottom line is that the choice of blower should be based soley on the intende application. Both have strong point and weak points. Yes, centrifugal blowers can do fine on the street, and displacement blowers fine at the track, but they are not optimal applications for a street car in either environment.



A Roots is a displacement S/C. It is an air pump. It provides instant volume of air, particularly at the lower rpm range.

A Centrifigual is a turbo driven by a belt. It compresses the air. The faster it spins the more the air is compressed.

Actually all superchargers are air pumps. Unless the air charge is captured and contained, no compression (ei boost) is produced. the difference is soley in the design of how they pump the air. Roots/screws through displacement (meshing of gears), vs centrifugal forces. Many simple air and water pumps work this way (using simple centrifugal forces).

[BillyGman]

I agree, but only in part. The twin screw type Supercharger is said to be the best of both worlds, and it DOES compress the air as well as pump it through. The difference between the roots and the screw type S/Cers is the shape of the vanes in the rotors inside. The screw type Superchargers don't create the heat that the roots types do, and unlike the roots or the centrifugal designs, the screw type makes as much power down low and in the mid-range RPM's as the roots type S/Cer does, and also makes as much high RPM power as the centrifugal design.

As I've said before, the problem w/the screw type S/Cer is that there aren't very many kits available yet for it as compared to the Eaton roots type S/Cer and the cetrifugal S/Cers. So therefore there aren't any kits available for the Marauder.
"Effster" of this board has a twin Screw type S/Cer equipped Marauder that's making 430 HP on merely 8 PSI of boost. And that would be difficult to acheive SAFELY w/an Eaton S/Cer on an otherwise stock Marauder engine. But Effster had a very colossal project on his hands while installing that Supercharger since he didn't have a kit.

And he told me that himself. The twin screw type S/Cer is also the one that's included in the 2005 Ford GT. It's said to produce a very broad power band. And BTW, roots type S/Cer are fine for drag racing. Look at the ET's that I've acheived w/my car as well as what "MI2QWIK4U" has acheived w/his.

And when you go to the dragstrip to watch the big boys race (I mean cars that are turning 8,9, and 10 second ET's) there are many more of them who use Roots type blowers than centrifugal designs. And how about the ultimate in 1/4 mile power? The top fuel dragsters and funny cars. They ALL use roots type blower. NOT centrifugal.

[tmac1337]

I am going to order the the supercharger book after I read the Sean Hyland book. Sailsman, are you installing a S/C soon? From Billy's and Mike's posts I see why the Trilogy kit is selling so well.

[sailsmen]

The Top Fuel use Roots because that what the rules allow.

A Roots is an air pump in that it moves the air. A Cent compresses the air,that's why the housing has an increasing diameter cone, looks like a nautilus snail shell..

Yes, eventually I will go w/ an S/C.

The past few weeks it has been over 100* and many days the humidity is over 90%, that's why I have not been to the track. I hope to take the whole family soon to a Wed Test N' Tune since the kids are out of school. :rock:

[MikesMerc]

A Roots is an air pump in that it moves the air. A Cent compresses the air,that's why the housing has an increasing diameter cone, looks like a nautilus snail shell..


If you removed the discharge tube from a centrifugal blower and let the blower discharge into the atmosphere there would be no compression (or very very little), nor any boost. A better way to say it is that the air density of the air entering and leaving the blower would almost exactly the same. The only change in density would be enough to physically move the air itself. Without containment after the blower, no compression takes place.

Very little compression takes place inside the blower itself. It's the back pressure built up inside the discharge tube (which is NOT part of the blower) which causes compression to take place.

This is no different than any other type of blower. All blowers would create zero boost without back pressure built inside the discharge area. Blowers (all of them) are nothing more than air pumps that pump more air than the engine needs which causes back pressure (boost). The designed of the blower is important because it must handle the boost back pressure without allowing the air to "back up" out of the blower (which can indeed happen when the blower is poorly matched to the application and creates an over boost situation).

The key to a centrifugal design is the "ramping" up of the CFM as the blower spins faster. Air volumes moved increase exponentially with blower rpm in a centrifugal blower, while the air moved with displacement blowers is much more linear.

This is the only difference.

In your example, the "snail shell" design is "backwards" for creating compression at all. The "snail shell" desing starts off smaller at the center and gets wider at the end before discharge. If anything, this widening reduces compression. The reason the design is there is to help directionalize the boost charge outward, improve blower efficiency, and aid in the back pressure (boost) from flowing backwards through the blower.

[merc406]

I thought I knew most everything about S/C's, but have gained some good info here as well, thanks Mike and Billy and all the other's that have idea's and experience with them, alway's willing to learn. :up: :rock: :beer: :D

[Dennis Reinhart]

This thread started out with the title - 6-8 PSI S/C, no innercooler needed and now we are back to comparing roots VS centrifugal. Both SC kits need a after cooler, both kits have there + and - roots for sure spins up faster than centrifugal, but with good gearing and and tuning the Vortech S trim has very very little lag, The roots spools up quicker this is a + but it makes a lot more heat and when you are realy hamering the car they can get heat soaked this is a - this can cause loss of power and spark knock.

The centrifugal blower makes more RWHP at a lower boost than the roots. Kieth Shculeys car this morning with a 3.61 puley at 9 PSI makes 458.6 RWHP with a 11.0 air fuel with 14 degrees total timing. http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1087593758-kieth.jpg

The car IAT runs 10/12 degrees all day long in 100 degree weather, when I go to the track I can add ice or just leave the after cooler pump run with the engine off this helps lower the reservoir water temp.

So again as far as I am concerned both type of SC kits are great, no matter which type you go with invest in a good after cooler, system. There are improvements that can be made on any ones kit, there improvements for example on the 03 Cobra heat exchanger and reservoir and the pump assembly itself,

Right now I am testing a new after cooler water pump, so again do your homework there is a lot of very good information on this car site it is in my opinion one of the best car sites around.

[tmac1337]

Both kits are excellent. From what I have read I favor a Vortech charger myself because of the low heat and the fact that instant boost may be a little less wear and tear on a vehicle's longevity. I can see the popularity in the Trilogy kit having the boost instantly. The guys going to the race track and getting great times like Billy got their monies worth. As I have no intention of going to the track myself, and just want a fast safe street car, I would feel more comfortable with a Vortech. The guys who want fast times and post time slips however beeline the Eatons.

What kind of intercooler is in your kit Dennis, since this thread is about intercoolers? How many GPM flow through it for cooling if its water?

Dennis, how many seconds does it take and at what RPMs for the boost to max out 8-10 PSI on your Vortech kit vs. the Trilogy maxing out instantly?

[MikesMerc]

I can see the popularity in the Trilogy kit having the boost instantly. The guys going to the race track and getting great times like Billy got their monies worth. As I have no intention of going to the track myself, and just want a fast safe street car, I would feel more comfortable with a Vortech. The guys who want fast times and post time slips however beeline the Eatons.

The truth is exact opposite. If you take a look around at who is running what (more than just MM, but ALL "hotrods") you'll surely find that roots blowers are favored for the street and the centrifugal favored on the track. This is is nothig new.

If you take a look at what the factory is producing with OEM superchargers, they are all roots type. In fact, the Eaton is what you will find on a the vast majority of OEM applications. There IS a reason for this folks.

Think about it....

BTW, I'm not trying to make this a roots vs centrifugal blower thread. The thread turned into this as a logical offshoot to the original question as heat production is inherent in the type of blower design.

In addition, although I agree whole heartedly with Dennis that both types have there pluses and minuses, there is certainly "the best choice" for specific applications. This cannot be denied (at least not with a straight face). One must look at the pluses and minuses of each type of blower and decide what fits thier application best. The differences in the blower types will indeed affect the driving experience...be it on the street or strip.

Then again, nothing says you have to pick the blower design for your application. If you don't care about having the best fit between intended use and the part chosen then I suppose a coin flip would do:)

[BillyGman]

I chose the roots type Eaton/Trilogy blower because I wanted the feel of having a big block engine under the hood, and so I wanted a torque curve as flat as possible. That's a characteristic of the V8 engine that a Jap car engine doesn't have, but since the V8 engine in the Marauder is such a small V8, it lacks a little bit of that characteristic.

But now my car feels like it has a big block, and that's what I wanted for STREET driving. IF I was to have chosen a centrifugal design, then I definately would've bought the Vortech since they are said to be the best centrifugal S/Cer around. I'm sure that's why Dennis sells them, and it's why Lidio's been selling them for awhile now too.

But I'll take an Eaton S/Cer anyday. Like Mike said, there's good reason why they're the choice for OEM applications, and what he didn't mention is the fact that the Eaton S/Cer has been chosen by FIVE major car manufactures for their production vehicles (Ford, Buick, Mercedes, Jaguar, & Austin Martin) and NO other Supercharger manufacturer can claim that.

I'm not telling anyone that it's neccessarily wrong to purchase a S/Cer kit from Dennis. I'm sure the man has put a lot of time and work into perfecting his kit, and Like the Trilogy kit, it has been developed specifically for the Marauder engine. But I'm simply telling you why I have made the choice that I did for MY car.......

[MikesMerc]

I'm not telling anyone that it's neccessarily wrong to purchase a S/Cer kit from Dennis. I'm sure the man has put a lot of time and work into perfecting his kit, and Like the Trilogy kit, it has been developed specifically for the Marauder engine.

DITTO!

I've never said which type of blower (roots or centrifugal) is "better". They are both good designs that have been around for many years. But there is definitely a better choice of blower depending on the intended application. Both blower kits are well suited, and well designed, for different applications. One size does not fit all here.

[jstevens]

could some one explain the difference between the 300a and 300b and
what options they come with

Big D, do a search. There is ton's on information on the differences.
This is a hot topic over at mercurymarauder.org currently.

[tmac1337]

I just got back from the Sunshine State MM club meet in Davie at the Tower Shop's Performance and Oldies cars weekly meet. I walked around and looked under the hood of all the various Mustangs, which were all S/Ced by the way. Mike and Billy, don't fall off your chairs when you read what follows, but I give credit where credit is do. All the cars had roots type blowers except for one which was a Vortech. Several were OEM Ford roots blowers, several other brands. Mike is right about most of the cars having roots blowers.

Now for the further punch, Billy...please don't pass out. I spoke with a MM owner who has a Trilogy kit charger on his car who was walking around wearing the Trilogy T-shirt that came with it. He did the install himself and knows cars. He said the kit is top notch and well thought out, very OEM looking under the hood. All parts came numbered to follow the instruction manual so not to screw up the install. The instruction manual was fantastic in his words. He loved the kit, has had no problems, his kit number in the low teens.

I next met someone who owns a MM and is a Ford Technician at a local dealership near me who is currently saving for a Trilogy kit himself. He offered to install a kit for me if I wanted for a very low price with me helping at the dealership off hours.

I would be remiss now not to look into the Trilogy kit too.

Someone call EMS for Billy, he is probably gasping.

[sailsmen]

"The rotation of the wheel throws the air molecules radially outward into a snail shaped collector.... The collector is an increasing diameter cone, or diffuser, which slows the air and increases its pressure.... "

The air molcules are compressed by being forced down a veturi shaped bore whcih is part of the S/C.

Both kits are of the same quality level, both have their pluses and minuses. They are both evenly matched, due to geographics I have a concern with heat and this is what will determine which kit I will buy.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Well, I have made my post I am not misinformed, again a good thread has turned into a Roots VS Vortech war I am tired of this, I have been on this site from the very beginning, this post was about AFTER COOLERS.

.



Take a 02 Lighting with a ROOTS blower, call any one that has worked and tuned these trucks, and they will tell you they lose almost TEN RWHP on each pull do to rapid heat build up. YES the roots makes more torque but it also makes a lot of heat, and the engine can become heat soaked very quickly. The VORTECH numbers prove them selves. Does this mean Vortech is better NO? But lets be objective here.

Look at the dyno sheets fellers, they don't lie. Do a Internet search and compare a Pro Charger conversion over a roots blower on a 03 Cobra.

Take a 03 Cobra with a KB blowzilla at 23 pounds boost the car makes 628 RWHP Stu's car with 18 PSI on a Vortech JT Trim makes 585 RWHP, take this motor put it in a 03 Cobra and the car will Make over 700 RWHP.

The roots blower spins up Much quicker and of course its harder on the Stock engine, am I saying its unsafe absolutely not, all I am saying is what ever floats your boat do your homework.

I hope every one has a good weekend and a Happy Fathers day

[BillyGman]

Dennis, I didn't see anyone "twisting" the facts as you said. I even gave you full credit that's due to you in my last post. I don't see anything wrong w/us simply speaking our minds about what our choices were concerning S/cers since all of us in this thread are all customers of atleast one of the vendors here including you, and therefore we ALL support the vendors here w/our biz. Nobody was bashing you or your S/cer kits. certainly not me. I've even pointed out that I believe that the kit that YOU sell includes the BEST centrifugal S/cer on the market as far as I'm concerned, and that I believe that if anyone decides on a centrifugal Supercharger, they should go to you since your kit is specifically designed by YOU for a Marauder engine and nothing else.

So I don't know why you're getting defensive. I for one have been as fair as I possibly can be in this discussion. I have NOT "bashed' anyone or their product as you've claimed. I've simply stated why I've made the choice that I have for MY car. And since I've spent the major cash that I have for a Supercharger that I've bought from one of the SUPPORTING VENDORS of this board, I think that I have every right to talk about why I've made the choice that I have for MY car. So i see no problem here w/this thread Dennis. Nor have I "bashed' you or your business in ANY way at all.

And BTW I have no doubt that what you've said about doing back-to-back-to-back consecutive 1/4 mile runs w/a car that's equipped w/a roots type blower getting heated up and losing some power is TRUE. But on a STREET driven car, you'll never have enough free and wide open road to be hammering your car continually like that. So that's why I have chosen a roots type blower for MY Marauder. And at the different dragstrips I've been to race at w/my Marauder, there are usually too many other racers there for me to run my car down the track one run immediately after another like you've implied anyway. So even at the track my car always has atleast 30 minutes to cool down between runs anyway unless I go racing in December when there's hardly anyone else there, in which case heat is the last thing I'm worried about in December temperatures.

[MikesMerc]

WTF?? What war???

The thread has run its own course here Dennis....no one highjacked it. All the relevant points about the need to intercool a 8pis blower have been tabled. Just because the thread took a turn to a topic you don't like doesn't make it wrong. So Billy and I like the Trilogy kit for our particular application.....so what? And, please, correct me if I'm wrong, but you are an authorized Trilogy vendor are you not? So what's the problem?

All of this bantering around about which SC is better is not the point! If you read what I have written, it is obvious that my point is about fitting the best SC kit for the intended application. Nothing more!

To sit here and pretend both kits deliver the same type of performance is complete misinformation. You and I both know that. So helping other members decide what to get for their intended application is what the topic has turned to.

There is far more to performance than max HP numbers anyway...again we both know this. Do you beleive the maximum area under the torque curve is irrelevant? Do you beleive the characteristics of power delivery are irrelevant to someone looking to buy a SC kit? Did the OEMs flip a coin to determine to select roots blowers for the factory application?

I have never bashed vortech or your shop....ever. I have a vortech blown 5.0 Mustang coupe stting in my garage. It's a wonderful car and I love the blower...for that particular application. There are indeed a great number of benefits to the centrifugal kits. I just don't beleive a centrifugal SC is the best fit for a (mostly) street driven MM...period. I have no agenda here.

When other members ask, or when when the topic turns to what SC someone thinks they should get, I am going to continue to answer honestly and fully and give them my opinion (which I have a right to) depending on thier intended application.

Pretending both types of SC kits provide the exact same type of performance and power delivery just so we don't "upset the applecart" around here is silly. Who are we kidding?

I offer my opinions because that is the essence of a BBS system. Everything said here is someone's opinion. I apologize if this offends you.

[tmac1337]

Everybody needs to take a step back. Dennis at least posted on this thread. Every time he does he is opened to attack and obviously has a personal business to run. I do not see posts from any other Vendors here. Dennis also does make an excellent kit himself, that cannot be disputed. The reason for this thread is about intercooling. The Vortech does operate using less heat. Sailsman makes a good point that here in the South it is much hotter anyway and a centrifugal design is a good option. Hence the need to talk about intercooling again. I also agree with the other posts that if your not racing the car, just want a fast street car, your punches on the gas pedal and the subsequent heat build up are not a concern as those times should be infrequent, red light racing at best. Some of the roots charged 4.6 mustangs I looked at last night did not have intercoolers, in the South Florida heat, and we could argue again about the need for an intercooler.

Which kit would I like on my car. As I do not race, I would be happy owning either. So it comes down to factors like:

Is someone nearby to do an install? How much $ to install, price again.

Price of kit? I would like the prices on the kits to go down as when I looked into parts prices I got a picture of how much money in parts the Vendors have in their kits. BUT THAT DOES NOT FACTOR IN R & D OF THE KIT. At some point they should be making money over the cost to design and the price should naturally lower, also allowing more people the opportunity to charge. Saturation?

And last, which charger you yourself think you will like the best. Again BOTH kits are good.

[MikesMerc]

Dennis at least posted on this thread. Every time he does he is opened to attack and obviously has a personal business to run. I do not see posts from any other Vendors here. Dennis also does make an excellent kit himself, that cannot be disputed.

I don't think anyone on the thead disputes that at all. Additionally, I don't think any comments on the thread were directed at Dennis, nor were they offered because Dennis decided to post. Quite the contrary, I 100% agree with Dennis' original opinion about the need for an inter cooler on a 10:1 motor regardless of blower type. He's right on the money IMOHO.



which charger you yourself think you will like the best. Again BOTH kits are good.

I couldn't agree more.


And I apologize again for angering anyone by expressing my opinion.

[BillyGman]

Billy, I have noted your times with the Trilogy kit vs. times by those with a Vortech kit. The Vortech kits do appear to have more HP but are running the same times. Mike stressed the importance of a good tune. Are you guys using tunes that were custom programed for your individual vehicle or are you using the generic S/C program sent with the kit. Same goes for those using the Vortech setup?

The Trilogy appears to have HP and TQ earlier. If a Vortech was individually tuned would it also show comparable results low end or is that a drawback of a centrufugal unit? I have heard with a good tune that both units were comparable low end.tmac, these were your words above^ so you were the one who asked for my opinions as far as a comparisant of the two types of S/Cer kits. And so Mike and I have gone out of our way to answer those questions that you've asked of me. So it's for that reason that both of us were justified in this thread to offer you our OPINIONS of how the Vortech and Roots type S/Cer compare.

And now when we've both defended ourselves after falsley being accused of twisting the facts, and "Bashing" Dennis, you jump in here and oppose us!! Well ya know what? I'm not only insulted by your words, but I regret ever even trying to answer the questions that you've asked in this quote above. And BTW, you're WELCOME!!!

You started all of these topics within this thread of yours, and then after we answer these things that you've specifically asked me about, you falsely accuse me and Mike of bashing Dennis. get your act together, uh? Until you do, don't expect anymore answers from me.

And now let me also point out to everyone, that this entire topic began BEFORE tmac started this thread, by him asking me questions about Supercharger types through the PM system. And after I went out of my way to answer his questions, he continued to investigate further by starting up this thread as well. Which was fine w/me.

But now that I'm one of those who's being falsely accused of attempting to "bash a vendor or his products, I want to make it clear to everyone that my original attempts to answer ALL of tmac's Supercharging questions was through the PM system ALONE. NOT openly on the board. It was tmac who has chosen to take all of these questions to the board, and I was simply trying to be pateint w/him by going the extra mile to answer his questions.

So perhaps Mike and I, as well as everyone else should just allow this thread to remain as it is, and abstain from adding anymore fuel to this fire, since tmac has mishandled this entire thing anyway.

[tmac1337]

Your way out of line here Billy. I said that everytime Dennis posts he is open to attacks, not that you attacked him. I did not want anyone to have any hard feelings, especially since you have been touting the Trilogy kit so strongly on every thread that even references to one. Yes, I did PM you. I PM'd a lot of people to get their opinions. I wanted to be sure I made the right choice when spending thousands of dollars. I chose the PM so not to influence peoples decisions when deciding which kit to buy. I tried to remain neutral in my posts that everyone reads for that reason. You on the other hand have usually been over the top in expressing your opinions. Strongly influencing peoples decisions. Myself, I would never reveal information that someone PM'd me with. You should be ashamed of yourself. I hope you make good on your promise not to post here any more.

[BillyGman]

I hope you make good on your promise not to post here any more.Yeah, now that you grilled me enough to get all the info that you wanted to out of me it's really convenient for you to say that. Isn't it? That takes a lot of class. :shake:

No gratitude.......

[FordNut]

Geeez, this thread is killing me. Of course a 10:1 engine needs an intercooler. Whether it's 6 psi or 15 psi. Period.

Wanna talk about roots vs. centrifugal, it's a different topic. Not in the title of this thread. But if we have to talk about the subject, if the roots blower is the absolute best, why are some of the Cobra owners converting to centrifugal blowers? And winning? And why would a centrifugal s/c company even develop a conversion kit if the roots is so much better?

Billy, sorry, nothing personal, and I too have believed for a long time the roots blower was superior, but after much research I see that there are many benefits to both systems and it is really a hard decision.

I am really glad that you're happy with the Trilogy kit.

Why can't everybody just get along?

[BillyGman]

Geeez, this thread is killing me. Of course a 10:1 engine needs an intercooler. Whether it's 6 psi or 15 psi. Period.

Wanna talk about roots vs. centrifugal, it's a different topic. Not in the title of this thread.No, but a topic that the thread starter brought up himself. So don't knock it. But if we have to talk about the subject, if the roots blower is the absolute best, why are some of the Cobra owners converting to centrifugal blowers? And winning? And why would a centrifugal s/c company even develop a conversion kit if the roots is so much better? The only S/Cer that I ever said was the "Absolute Best" as you've implied is the twin screw S/Cer. I dunno anyone w/a Cobra who has converted to the centrifugal, so I'll have to take your word for it. I don't know why they would do that either. But if you're going to do a comparisant of what those Cobra owners originally had, vs. what they convert to, then you would have to note what else they've done to their engines while they were in there, as well as how much boost pressures they were running w/how much they ended up increasing it by when converting to the centrifugal units if at all. Furthermore, I have no idea what you mean by saying that they're "winning". Winning what, and against who? Are you talking road racing, circle track, or drag racing?

And while you're at it, Cobra engines do have less compression ratios, so you might very well be able to go higher w/the boost pressures. There's just too many variables w/the comparisants that you're making.

Billy, sorry, nothing personal, and I too have believed for a long time the roots blower was superior, but after much research I see that there are many benefits to both systems and it is really a hard decision. Naw man, I take no offence at all to what YOU have said. If you want to list reasons why you like another S/Cer, that's fine w/me. As long as you don't accuse me of Bashing any vendor here, because that isn't what I was doing at all. Hard decision? Well, I guess it can be for some guys, sure. That's precisely why I post about my satisfaction w/the Trilogy kit. because it CAN be a difficult decision. What kit anyone decides on is up to them, and I don't neccessarily befriend people who own Trilogy equipped Marauders any quicker than I do those who own Reinhart S/Cer equipped ones, or Kenny Brown equipped ones.

I am really glad that you're happy with the Trilogy kit. Happy? I'm ecstatic!! You would be too. Just look at my ET's. And keep in mind that I've only raced this one car on a dragstrip. I've never even raced on a track w/another car in the past, and I've only raced this car three separate days, the other two being before it was S/Ced. So I'm still a novice when it comes to racing on a track. No great expertise here. The three guys on this board who have better ET's are pushing 50 and 75 more HP than my car is. And of those three, I'm right on the heels of two of them so closely, that it would likely depend on minor things as to which car would win on any given day. And as for the last of those three, he's running NOS in addition to being S/Ced. So you'll have to excuse my enthusiasm for the Trilogy set up. But I just like to let people know of how good a mod is when I find out for myself. If that offends you or others, I'm afraid that's too bad. Offending people is NOT my intention. Helping people is. That's all.

Why can't everybody just get along?Getting along is dependent on both parties in question. It has to be a two way street. I tend to be outspoken, and some people have a big problem w/that. I don't understand why, but that's the way it is. I've merely stated that I like how the Trilogy kit makes my car feel like it has a big block engine under the hood because of the awesome Low-end torque, and people get all flustered w/that.:confused: And anything else in addition to that, was merely an attempt to answer questions that were directed right at me, and even w/my name attached.

[MikesMerc]

But if we have to talk about the subject, if the roots blower is the absolute best, why are some of the Cobra owners converting to centrifugal blowers? And winning? And why would a centrifugal s/c company even develop a conversion kit if the roots is so much better?


At least you could have come up with some tough questions. But I'll answer these obvious ones anyway:)

"if the roots blower is the absolute best, why are some of the Cobra owners converting to centrifugal blowers?"

First, no one in this thread has ever stated that "the roots blower is the absolute best". I'm not even sure where you picked that thought up :confused: Can you please quote that from the thread somewhere?

But, "why are some of the Cobra owners converting to centrifugal blowers?"

Thats obvious,....because they have decided that for thier intended application (drag strip racing), the centrifugal blower is best.

And winning?

Well, if having the best drag strip numbers is the intended application, then the centrifugal supercharger is indeed a great fit. Along with the centrifugal blower many of these guys are running more total boost, running big stalls and shorter gears. To hell with OEM daily driveability here. When your launching at 6000 rpm and keeping the motor screaming in the high rpm band the whole way down the track, getting the benefits out of the low and mid range a roots blower provides is much less important.

"And why would a centrifugal s/c company even develop a conversion kit if the roots is so much better?"

Because the kit is fairly easy to engineer and they can still make money only if they sell a small handful of kits to those folks who relish top end power and drag strip performance over everything else.


Any other questions? How about some that aren't so darn obvious;)


On another note, I finally figured out why everyone is so anal about members offering thier opinions about products on the board!!! It's because some folks who don't like the opinion being offered just throw reading comprehension right out the window, and instead decide to make things up to justify thier aggravation. I reread the the entire thread.... LOL....and no one ever said "the roots is so much better" nor "the roots blower is the absolute best". No offense FordNut, but I think you added "just a tad" of embellishment there don't ya think?

I'll say it one more time for those that need to see it again in print so that they understand: Both blower types are good choices. What is "best" depends on the intended application. Big heavy street cars that lack low end are better served by displacment blowers, while high revving, short geared, big stalled cars built for the track are better served buy the centrifugal blowers. This is of course my humble opinion (which also happens to be supported by thousands of others who have had hands on experience with the different types of power delivery of forced induction). But, hey, we could all be wrong;)

Why is this basic SC 101 concept so damn hard to understand? :shake: There are indeed a few exceptions to the general rule, but the concept applies to most cars by and large.

EDIT: BTW, thank you Logan for not closing or removing the thread. I am determined to bring peace to the "which blower is best war" by beating it to death with logic. Everyone needs to understand that while there is no "best SC" , there is indeed a "best choice" for what they want out of the car.