180 Degree Thermostat Brand & Part #

[Silver03MM]

I'm interested in gettin my dad some sort of chip for his Marauder soon but I understand that it is better to get a 180 thermostat for it first but I can't seem to find any part # at any autoparts store. I guess I'm lookin for a Superstat or sumthin...... :help:

[Donny Carlson]

I'm interested in gettin my dad some sort of chip for his Marauder soon but I understand that it is better to get a 180 thermostat for it first but I can't seem to find any part # at any autoparts store. I guess I'm lookin for a Superstat or sumthin...... :help:
Dennis Reinhart sells a stat. I put in a Hypertech, found online by a google search. Scott at Team is high on them. Pehaps Dennis also sells these? The price is pretty much the same whereever you buy them. (it aint exactly a high ticket item)

[woaface]

You can surely buy them at any autoparts store. They're under $20

[David Morton]

I'm not very 'hot' for low temp t-stats on stock cars for two reasons. Both go to durability concerns.
1)The 'metal wear index' graphs I saw in automotive school showed high wear (100%) at 160 dropping off quickly to 40% at 180 and on down to 15% at 195 where it is at it's lowest. Colder engines wear faster. This isn't a problem for hot-rodders that are rebuilding their engines every season, so they're looking to solve the heat problems that are of more concern to them.

2)The engineers didn't run the tranny fluid through the radiator because it cools off better there. They ran it through there so they could tune the transmission (pressure, shift points, calibrated springs and orifices) and know the temperature of the fluid. Hotter fluid flows easier than cooler fluid and when the fluid runs colder than designed for the tranny, durability is compromised. So, if you run an auxilliary cooler, make sure the fluid goes throught it first and then through the radiator so it will be as hot as the transmissions design expects it to be.

Re-engineering cars is best left to people that have a shop and lots of time to work on their projects. A 180 t-stat is the last thing I would consider as a first mod. Maybe, as part of a tried and true package like cooling system mods and transmission valve body massage with PCM reprogramming. Don't go picking what mod Dennis or Lidio has that's cheap and start from there. Save up 100,000 nickels and buy a Trilogy supercharger kit. That's what I'm doing.

[FordNut]

I'm not very 'hot' for low temp t-stats on stock cars for two reasons. Both go to durability concerns.
1)The 'metal wear index' graphs I saw in automotive school showed high wear (100%) at 160 dropping off quickly to 40% at 180 and on down to 15% at 195 where it is at it's lowest. Colder engines wear faster. This isn't a problem for hot-rodders that are rebuilding their engines every season, so they're looking to solve the heat problems that are of more concern to them.

2)The engineers didn't run the tranny fluid through the radiator because it cools off better there. They ran it through there so they could tune the transmission (pressure, shift points, calibrated springs and orifices) and know the temperature of the fluid. Hotter fluid flows easier than cooler fluid and when the fluid runs colder than designed for the tranny, durability is compromised. So, if you run an auxilliary cooler, make sure the fluid goes throught it first and then through the radiator so it will be as hot as the transmissions design expects it to be.

Re-engineering cars is best left to people that have a shop and lots of time to work on their projects. A 180 t-stat is the last thing I would consider as a first mod. Maybe, as part of a tried and true package like cooling system mods and transmission valve body massage with PCM reprogramming. Don't go picking what mod Dennis or Lidio has that's cheap and start from there. Save up 100,000 nickels and buy a Trilogy supercharger kit. That's what I'm doing.

Most tuners agree about the thermostat. Don't change it before you chip it or reflash the PCM with an aggressive 93 octane tune. Then you may be able to pick up a little more power. Maybe at the expense of durability/longevity of the engine.

As for the tranny cooler, the MM does not have the tranny cooler in the radiator. It has a separate cooler that is mounted between the radiator and a/c coil. Most tuners do not recommend an auxiliary cooler unless the t/c is upgraded and/or a blower is added.

[David Morton]

Thanks for straightening me out on the cooler, I assumed it was like my old '97 GM, which I gave to my mother, who is, BTW, a saint.

The learning process continues.

[studio460]

Save up 100,000 nickels and buy a Trilogy supercharger kit. That's what I'm doing.
Actually, it's 120,000 nickels, plus a few more nickels for the install!

[RF Overlord]

As was said above, don't install a cooler thermostat and/or cooler plugs UNLESS you also install a chip (or have the PCM reflashed) with a new program that's specifically designed for these changes. Changing the 'stat/plugs alone won't buy you anything, and may even make the car perform worse...

If you're looking for a somewhat less costly mod to start with, how about the underdrive pulleys or the upgraded rear sway bar? They're each less than half the cost of the chip/plugs/'stat combo...or for a REALLY inexpensive but valuable mod, how about the real oil pressure gauge? It's only about $55 from Summit or Jeg's...

[Donny Carlson]

Is there some bizarre reason why the posting time and dates are off?

[Smokie]

I agree that changing the thermostat alone is mostly a waste of time and money. I also believe that there are some misconceptions about what a thermostat can do to the operating temperature of an engine.

As stated earlier a cold engine is not at peak efficiency, cold oil does not flow as readily, so the thermostat stops water flow from engine to radiator and the engine reaches operating temperature quicker, another benefit in colder climes is that a thermostat allows you to have heated air much faster.

Once the engine reaches operating temp. and the thermostat bi-metal is fully open the thermostat remains open the entire time you are driving the car and it does not play any role in your engine's temperature, it does not close again until you shut engine off and is allowed to cool off.

The difference between the stock 188* stat and the 180*
stat is, that in theory the the 180* will be fully opened a little sooner than the 188*, how much sooner would depend on ambient temp. and other factors. My point is that after the stat's are open your engine temp. is the same with either stat, remember they are fully open; end of story. The coolant will be about 200-210* in the summer time, that is the reason we don't use plain water (boiling point 212*) and we use a pressurized cap to increase the boiling point of the coolant, the greater the pressure the greater the boiling point of water (mix 50/50 remember?) So if anyone feels that a lower temp. stat. lowers engine temp. after engine is hot. Please explain to me how?

[MitchB]

The 'metal wear index' graphs I saw in automotive school showed high wear (100%) at 160 dropping off quickly to 40% at 180 and on down to 15% at 195 where it is at it's lowest. Colder engines wear faster

What where these graphs showing? Wear on what component(s)? It is well known that lower temps will give higher wear rates on the rings and cylinder walls in car'd engines where the primary cause is incomplete fuel vaporization resulting on fuel drop out or condensation on the walls, but fuel injected engines are much less susceptable to this.

Mitch

[studio460]

Once the engine reaches operating temp. and the thermostat bi-metal is fully open the thermostat remains open the entire time you are driving the car and it does not play any role in your engine's temperature, it does not close again until you shut engine off and is allowed to cool off.[/b]
Well, that all seems to make sense, but then again, what do I know? I just installed the 180° thermostat last week after experiencing minor detonation after a dynotune performed by Jerry some months ago. I installed Denso IT-22s (two steps colder) just after the dynotune.

Anyway, again, I only JUST installed the 'stat, and the water temp gauge now reads lower at operating temperature. The gauge needle used to line up exactly in the middle of the "20 MPH" index mark on the speedometer. NOW, the needle is just UNDER the "20 MPH" index mark. Anyone else have the same experience?

[FordNut]

Anyway, again, I only JUST installed the 'stat, and the water temp gauge now reads lower at operating temperature. The gauge needle used to line up exactly in the middle of the "20 MPH" index mark on the speedometer. NOW, the needle is just UNDER the "20 MPH" index mark. Anyone else have the same experience?
Yes, that is what I experienced, too.
I disagree with Smokie's operating description, but it's a free country, right?

[TAF]

NOW, the needle is just UNDER the "20 MPH" index mark. Anyone else have the same experience?
yep...I believe Agent figued it out one day on a Cray Supercomputer to point directly at 18.65849302859 MPH...so you're correct in your observations. :lol:

[David Morton]

Actually, it's 120,000 nickels, plus a few more nickels for the install!Dammit! As always, I'm a day late and 20,000 nickels short. I will however try to save the money for the install as I *think* I can do it myself. I have plenty of extra duct tape and WD40 just in case.

Oh, and good reasoning Smokie, you know your stuff for Florida, but how about North Battleford, Sascatchewan in January? Still, the thing is getting up to operating temp faster when stock. I just hate to see guys wasting money on the same stuff I wasted my money on when I was young and too proud to admit that it didn't even make the car run any better or cooler for that matter, unless it was freezing outside.

For my learning process to continue I have a question. Are these stock t-stats bi-metal or do they still use the old parafin piston-pin capsule type? You know, the kind that slowly wear-out, opening less and less until that hot summer day when a meltdown 'just happens'!(?)

[Smokie]

Yes, that is what I experienced, too.
I disagree with Smokie's operating description, but it's a free country, right?
Disagreement is cool.:cool: If you feel I am not correct, how does a thermostat operate and affect engine temp.? Please describe.... I am here to learn.:)

[Smokie]

For my learning process to continue I have a question. Are these stock t-stats bi-metal or do they still use the old parafin piston-pin capsule type? You know, the kind that slowly wear-out, opening less and less until that hot summer day when a meltdown 'just happens'!(?)
David, my learning process also continues, my use of the word bi-metal was incorrect, the stock thermostat in our cars does use the wax in the capsule method of opening, wax melts at about 180* expands as it turns into liquid and pushes the rod that opens the gate the spring is pushing shut.

Your analogy about what happens in the great white north is correct, is possible up there near the North Pole a thermostat actually opens and closes while the engine is operating, I think here in Florida the thermostat spends very little time in the closed position.

The other aspects of my description I believe to be correct, if there are some that believe the thermostat makes the engine run cooler after it is fully open all I ask is that you describe how this process occurs, I am here to learn.:)

[Krytin]

The t-stat does modulate while the engine is running - a lower temp stat will lower operating temp as long as the cooling system (radiator, fan, pump), air flow and ambient temperature allow for enough heat to be removed! If you exceed the capacity of the system and/or the ambient temp is hot enough - it will get hot/over heat no matter what temp stat you use!

[David Morton]

The t-stat does modulate while the engine is running - a lower temp stat will lower operating temp as long as the cooling system (radiator, fan, pump), air flow and ambient temperature allow for enough heat to be removed! If you exceed the capacity of the system and/or the ambient temp is hot enough - it will get hot/over heat no matter what temp stat you use!This is how I understand t-stats work and Smokie's right for a hot clime like Florida but I think the misconception was that t-stats were like switches, either on or off, and that's not the case at all. They are actually valves.

[Donny Carlson]

Since this thread has wandered away from the subject of part numbers and where to acutally buy a 180 degree stat and is hijacked into discussion of the construction and principles of stats, you guys would'nt have this discussion if we were all using one of these:

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/elecpump.htm

You REMOVE the state with this pump. On your dash is a control for raising and lowering coolant temp. Also note, unlike the Meziere, which is placed where the mechanical pump was located, this unit attachs to the coolant hose. You completely remove the mechanical water pump impeller and plug the hole. (or, I guess, put on an idler pulley).

http://www.racerpartswholesale.com/images/ewp1.jpg

[Smokie]

This thermostat fits our car.

[David Morton]

Looks very trick Donny. Anybody want to give me $400 to test it out? Actually at this price, it might be cheaper to convert to this than to replace a stock W/P & t-stat at some dealerships.

At the claimed 2000 hrs. motor life you'd have to average 50mph to get 100k miles. Still it has a lot of appeal. Perhaps the controller runs the motor only as fast as needed and that would stretch-out the life of the thing.

Thanks Donny. Good post.

[FordNut]

Disagreement is cool.:cool: If you feel I am not correct, how does a thermostat operate and affect engine temp.? Please describe.... I am here to learn.:)
The plumbing on the MM is different than on earlier cars, so let me describe how I believe the systems function. If I am in error, explain it so I can understand it. I'm just a dumb ole hillbilly (with a BS ChE).

Older cars, the thermostat is closed until the car reaches operating temperature, then the thermostat opens and water flows thru the radiator, cooling the water, and closing the thermostat (either fully or partially) until the temperature rises again. This cycle repeats until steady state operation is achieved. Steady state being a specific time interval between temperature (or thermostat opening %) cycles. The system is basically stagnant (pump cavitating, deadheaded system, low flow) until the thermostat opens, then it is circulating cooled air from the radiator.

In the MM, the thermostat is closed and water is recirculated thru the engine until the temperature is high enough to open the thermostat, at which time the water flows thru the radiator, cooling the water and closing the thermostat (either fully or partially) until the temperature rises again. This cycle repeats until steady state operation is achieved. Steady state being a specific time interval between temperature (or thermostat opening %) cycles. The system is recirculating (no cavitation, closed system, normal flow, equilibrium condition) heated water when the thermostat is closed, then circulating cooled water from the radiator when the thermostat is open.

The time interval is small enough that we do not see the temperature fluctuations when the thermostat opens and closes (whether partially of fully) on the temperature gauge.

But the temperature rating of the thermostat does indeed control the operating temperature of the engine.

[Krytin]

That's about it FN! There is a small bypass circut on the older cars to prevent the cavitation - otherwise you said it the way I learned it (over three consecutive years in school)!

[Smokie]

The time interval is small enough that we do not see the temperature fluctuations when the thermostat opens and closes (whether partially of fully) on the temperature gauge.

But the temperature rating of the thermostat does indeed control the operating temperature of the engine.FordNut, the reason I didn't think the stat would ever close after the engine and coolant are at operating temp. and stable is not based on anything more than observation over the years.

When I used to repair my own cars or those of friends and my three sons, I placed many a stat in a pot of water on the stove to check operation while checking temp. with thermometer, sometimes with mercury or bimetal thermometers that are slow to respond to changing temp. and more often than not inaccurate (bi-metal specially).

In about the last 12 years I have been using digital thermometers with varistor type probes that react to temp. instantly and are very accurate. What I have found is that stats. are not accurate, even when brand new and are very slow to open and even slower to close.

I never install a new thermostat without first doing the pot of water on stove test, it may sound silly but I have found brand new thermostats the never opened with boiling water or open only partially. Thats why it seems hard for me to picture a thermostat cycling back and forth, specially quickly, my experience is a little different from the theory that you correctly stated. :D

Side note: I used my infrared point and shoot thermometer yesterday to measure the temp. of the top radiator hose just before entering radiator and also the temp. of the outlet return hose back to engine, this was done after car had reached operating temp. idleing in Park with A/C on; ambient temp. 92*/90% R.H.

Top radiator hose: 175*
Lower radiator hose: 110*
Remarkable cooling efficiency, it does seem to prove you correct and me wrong.:lol:

[RF Overlord]

OK, since this IS a temperature-related thread...

Hold down the ALT key and type 0176 and you get the degree symbol like this: ° , so you don't have to use the * ...

God, I'm a geek... :shake:

[Smokie]

OK, since this IS a temperature-related thread...

Hold down the ALT key and type 0176 and you get the degree symbol like this: ° , so you don't have to use the * ...

God, I'm a geek... :shake:
° ° °....Cooool!!!!!!!!!!!!:lol:

[Bradley G]

° neat!! Thanks:cool4:
Bradley G
Your not a Geek Your just well informed:P

[Dennis Reinhart]

I'm interested in gettin my dad some sort of chip for his Marauder soon but I understand that it is better to get a 180 thermostat for it first but I can't seem to find any part # at any autoparts store. I guess I'm lookin for a Superstat or sumthin...... :help:
There 13.00 I have them in stock

[MarauderMark]

° ¹ ² ³
You can do this langauge by holding down the alt button and hit the numbers on the right it starts at #15 up to #0515 then write em down and you have it..<'///><

[BillyGman]

I'm interested in gettin my dad some sort of chip for his Marauder soon but I understand that it is better to get a 180 thermostat for it first but I can't seem to find any part # at any autoparts store. I guess I'm lookin for a Superstat or sumthin...... :help:Just be advised that the factory stock thermostat in the Marauders are only 188 degrees, so an 8 degree reduction won't make a considerable difference. A thermostat is cheap, sure, but it isn't like the cooler one is something that you have to have in order to put a chip in the car, or re-flash the computer with a hand held tuner.