Valvetrain noise?

[klowpez]

Hello all-
I recently got ahold of a new to me 2004 Marauder with (currently) 76k on it. I've only put about 1000 miles on it since i got it. Only things I've done is new serpentine belt, tensioners/pulleys, oil and diff fluid changes. The car runs and drives great but I'm going crazy trying to decipher this noise. I've read about everything from ticking injectors to rod knock. The issue here is I'm stuck on the symptoms and can't narrow it down. I'm looking for someone that has had a similar noise/fix. For the record- the noise was there when I bought it but it was in good enough shape for me to buy it anyway.

Symptoms are:

-At WARM IDLE/ HOT IDLE- slight tapping or ticking noise coming from the Passenger/RH cylinder head/valve cover area. It's real faint/dull metallic-ey echo-ey? The second you give it some gas it goes away, and is only heard again once the engine comes to rest at idle. I cannot hear this noise at cold start or while accelerating.

-can't really hear it inside the car unless you're up against a median or a drive thru, if you stand outside with the hood closed you can hear it from the rh wheel well area or if you pop the hood.
-no check engine light
-spark plugs just checked/replaced with the NGK 4177s (noise was there before this) and all spark plugs/threads were tight though it did look like someone had replaced coil #1 before.
-sometimes it's louder than others-sometimes it's barely there but I'm extremely sensitive to weird noises so it bothers me and i listen for it constantly
-I ran 3oz of seafoam in the engine oil for maybe 20 miles as things like that in oil worry me - but the noise is still there. I then promptly changed the oil with valvoline semi syn.5w20

Worth mentioning:
-The only other issues with this car is if i let it sit for weeks, the first start up is a little chattery, but promptly goes away after a few seconds- and normal from what i've read on here.
-A very faint/slight vibration at 1500-1900RPM.

My thoughts are:
*Lash adjuster (hopeful)-but the symptoms don't make sense!- Do i really need to drop the motor for valve cover removal??
*Rod knock/wrist pin-wouldn't I hear this at all RPMs? ESPECIALLY cold starts?
*Timing chain?- but again from what I've read i would hear the noise mostly up front and it would be constant thru the RPMs
*Do these 4V have oil restrictors like the 2v? Is it possible I'm not getting enough oil to the RH head at idle? How would i find this on the 4v?

At this point , I think I'm gonna pull the valve cover off anyway and check the adjusters. What SHOULD I be looking for? Any tips/tricks?

Video link:
https://youtube.com/watch?v=rmtXaRMf-ow&feature=shares

[justbob]

You will drive yourself insane trying to make a 4V idle quietly. There is a lot happening in there and at 76,000 miles I can assure you that it doesn’t need anything unless it was badly abused.

Cam covers: remove the two 18MM engine mount nuts (straight up thru the K member), jack up engine. Sometimes even better to just raise the side you’re removing leaving the nut on the opposite side so you get a tilting action. Easy peasy.

I’ve got long arms and can reach the nuts with an impact without even lifting the car up.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[SilverPhoenix]

Don't have an answer to your question, but just wanted to say you should change the tranny fluid unless you know it's already been done. I bought my MM with 57K on the clock and had the tranny fluid changed at 75K and 125K. I just rolled over 180K a week ago and this thread made me realize I haven't changed the tranny fluid since 125K, so need to have that done soon.

[klowpez]

Will do on the tranny fluid. What’s the most recommended ?

UPDATE/MORE QUESTIONS:
I went to harbor freight after work today. Got a stethoscope. Listed thru all the valve cover bolts and while I can hear the tapping I mostly heard flapping which to me sounded normal. Except when I got to the rearmost bolt the tapping noise I’ve been hearing got louder. I compared it to the other side. And although maybe slightly more insulated ? I could still hear it.

here’s where it gets weird. I put the stethoscope to the oil pan and all I could hear was whooshing. Same thing to the exhaust manifolds. Though I couldn’t reach say the side of the block I think this rules out the bottom end. I put it to the trans pan and I heard a faint tap. Nothing from the cats. So I went back up top. And put the stethoscope on the upper intake plenum. I heard the tap right around the back most part. So then I put it to the bell housing ( the very top where I could just barely reach) and that sound was very very clear there. I’ll get it on a lift this week and see if I can do that again.



here’s my dilemma. What gives ? I swore it was from the passenger side. But maybe it’s in the middle ?
Until I can get it on the lift I have 2 questions :
1- on the backside of the motor. Passenger side. Directly in front of the trans dip there seems to be a broken chunk of something ?
what goes here. Along with the bolt holding down nothing on the cowl?
2- flex plate. Would my symptoms make sense ? Maybe at higher RPM the sound is too low a frequency to discern from the motor noise ?

edit- also listened at front timing covers. Dead silent.

[justbob]

Top circle is (was) the ground strap to the engine that bolts to the back of the engine.

Bottom circle is just a freeze plug with what looks like junk sitting on it.

You quite possibly here a bit of valve tick as these heads didn’t have means of cooling the rear cylinders. There is a couple of different rear head cooling mods available.

Flex plates have cracked on these but isn’t what I’d call very common.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[klowpez]

Top circle is (was) the ground strap to the engine that bolts to the back of the engine.

Bottom circle is just a freeze plug with what looks like junk sitting on it.

You quite possibly here a bit of valve tick as these heads didn’t have means of cooling the rear cylinders. There is a couple of different rear head cooling mods available.

Flex plates have cracked on these but isn’t what I’d call very common.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

Thanks for your time and help.

Where might I find the rest of this ground strap ? Reasons to remove this strap ? Maybe someone swapped out the intake plenum ????
I figured it was a freeze plug there but the chunk missing right above it (on said plenum) threw me off along with what looks like a flange on either side of that plug with bolt holes. Is this what they all look like ?

Leave it to me to have the most uncommon issue with their cars ( it’s just my luck). Is there a way to confirm that you might know of ?
I dunno - it doesn’t sound like normal valve tick to me. It’s less of a ticking and more of a tapping. Again this is my first 4V so maybe you’re right. You think it’s still worth taking the valve covers off? Would a lash adjuster make this noise ? How could I confirm a bad valve ?

Here’s a link to a better video. I used a scan tool to cut the idle down to 4-600 RPM.

https://youtu.be/CDt0jUfi7sM


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[klowpez]

Also. I know the clicking from the injectors is very prominent. I’m talking about that knocking in the background most clearly heard after 1:42 in that video.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blazen71]

Sounds like piston slap to me. If that's what it is, you can run it for years without issue. Rod knock would be twice as fast and it'd get worse daily.

[TORINO]

On a push rod motor that has suffered poor maintenance / lack of oil changes will have lifter ticking. What does an overhead cam sound like with gummed up lifters ? You may want to just put some miles on it and see if any thing changes ??

[klowpez]

Sounds like piston slap to me. If that's what it is, you can run it for years without issue. Rod knock would be twice as fast and it'd get worse daily.

Do the symptoms make sense for piston slap though? Honestly, now I'm doubting the sound entirely after hearing it thru the intake manifold/bellhousing. Wouldn't I hear piston slap resonate thru the oil pan?

Last night after I pulled it out of the shop, there was a little poof of blue smoke. Granted, I've had this car since spring time and haven't driven it much so I forgot that when I first bought it , it had blue smoke at startup for the first few times. I figured leaky valve seal or something from sitting for so long. I haven't noticed it the last few times I've driven it until last night. But I had it idling for about an hour while I was probing around. I will say- I also ran a can of seafoam spray thru the throttle body when I first got it and it was the craziest display of a smokeshow I've ever seen and while it might have been placebo it made me feel like it was quieter for a little bit then. Maybe carbon build up on a valve?

The thing that gets me is that most of the time it's real noticeable, sometimes it's not. And before I go taking things apart amidst a Northeast winter, I want to have a game plan.

[klowpez]

On a push rod motor that has suffered poor maintenance / lack of oil changes will have lifter ticking. What does an overhead cam sound like with gummed up lifters ? You may want to just put some miles on it and see if any thing changes ??

Right, but this is a little different than any lifter tick I've heard. Again this is my first 4V, I've had 3 other 2v Grand marquis and towncars and none of them have made this noise. I know there's only 11,000 of us - but SOMEBODY had to have had this before lol.
Funny - cause if i search on youtube for mercury marauder noise there's plenty of videos with pretty much the same sound I hear. But nobody ever comes back with a fix lol.

[klowpez]

Here's where I'm at for now if anyone can help:

1- on the back of the intake manifold, in this case the only angle i can really see is the passenger side. Right above that freeze plug (pictured above), does it look like there's a chunk missing from everyone's intake manifold? Just a rough casting?
2-Let's say bad valve- would I hear this under these conditions? Maybe if i stethoscope the tailpipe? Though I didn't hear anything at the Cats. Is there a way to confirm this?
3-Can we rule out the bottom end wrist pin/piston slap if i can't hear it thru the oil pan?
4-Can we rule out chain chatter/slap if i don't hear it from the timing covers?
4-does the flexplate theory make sense? At all?
5-above we discovered that I'm missing a ground strap that mounts to the firewall, somebody left the bolt there. Where does the other end go? What would be the reason someone would remove this?

6-Would oil in the spark plug wells cause an undetected misfire? (reference to my remembering above of the blue smoke at startup when i first bought it-Already changed the PCV valve too) I'll attach a pic of spark plugs.Picture orientation is facing the motor.

7-What are the odds that someone can stethoscope their engine or even take a video at warm idle and just listen. Maybe it is normal???
For reference here is where I can hear that metallic tapping on top of the plenum.

ALSO- the stickers on the sides, are these factory?
5268352684

5268152682

[blazen71]

Young Jedi, relax. Take a breath and drive it a bit and see if it gets worse or not. Then start attacking your list one at a time. Nobody is going to be able to diagnose your car via the internet. If you spend all your time obsessing about what it could be, instead of ruling things out one at a time, you're going to have some serious panic attacks and never get anywhere with your diagnosis. Remember, one thing at a time.

[klowpez]

Young Jedi, relax. Take a breath and drive it a bit and see if it gets worse or not. Then start attacking your list one at a time. Nobody is going to be able to diagnose your car via the internet. If you spend all your time obsessing about what it could be, instead of ruling things out one at a time, you're going to have some serious panic attacks and never get anywhere with your diagnosis. Remember, one thing at a time.

I appreciate that, you're right and luckily i have other cars to drive. I know nobody can diagnose it over the internet, but just a little guidance is all we need sometimes : ) . In this case- some guidance with the above questions lol.

[TORINO]

With blue smoke on start up yes would be from the seals. With the noise none of this should be on a 75k mile engine. Have you done a car fax to check mileage ? I have had a thermostat stick and if you keep driving to were it is convenient to stop the engine could be cooked.
The rattle on start up from the chain is not a problem but also goes to the engine condition.

[klowpez]

With blue smoke on start up yes would be from the seals. With the noise none of this should be on a 75k mile engine. Have you done a car fax to check mileage ? I have had a thermostat stick and if you keep driving to were it is convenient to stop the engine could be cooked.
The rattle on start up from the chain is not a problem but also goes to the engine condition.

I did do a carfax, not much info for early 2000s it seems, a lot of "vehicle serviced" at dealers, but no other real info. Mileage in tune with the carfax years/reg dates, no reported issues.
I for sure haven't overheated it, no coolant loss at all (at least over the last 1000 miles), i figured that's what that noise is. again doesn't do it every time, only if it sits for weeks at a time.

[TORINO]

You will have to just drive it and see how the noise goes. Transmission just get a filter and 5 qts of mercon V the stock pan gasket is reusable, much better than cork. If you find a plastic thing rolling around in the pan you will know it has never been off, it's the factory plug for dip stick. You should also do the differential, you have to pull the cover. 3 qts 75-140 for limited slip diff. New brake fluid would also be good thing to do. Antifreeze good ? Fuel filter ? on The frame front of r/r wheel

[justbob]

Piston slap is best heard top center of engine. As for blue smoke at start up, it’s a character thing as most did that from day one brand new. Lots of talk in the early days about it and ultimately we just drove them.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[blackcar]

The noise can also be possibly coming from a bearing in the alternator, ac compressor, belt tensioner, power steering pump
or possibly the water pump. See if you can isolate those items.

Word of advice before you mess with the antifreeze draining and refilling make sure you get the burbing routine down pat.

[klowpez]

Alright guys. I know I’m all over the place but maybe this will help someone in the future too.

Hear me out …
I’ll upload a video in the morning. But I poked around everywhere with a stethoscope again.
Timing covers , valve covers, pulleys , but I just kept hearing it at the back part of the intake. So I put it in the air.
Poked around the bottom end, oil pan , whatever bits of the head I could reach but it was pretty much silent until I got to the backend of the motor. Either side really. The sound travels very strange on this motor. But - I found a few things.

Firstly - I found the other end of my ground strap. I’ll figure out how to fish that back up later.

Second- The noise is heard clear as day with a stethoscope on one of the starter bolts and bellhousing.
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/b28dd782751270b0735ef247828176 9b.jpg


I took off the lower inspection cap ..

… this can’t be normal right ? It seems like gouges on the TC , and a deeeep gouge on the flex plate itself.

Now. Again. I know we can’t diagnose over the internet. I’m just looking for insight. Maybe someone’s seen it before. Etc. worst case you guys are tagging along my adventure lol.

Ground strap being loose is evidence of someone being in here before. I also saw a blue head gasket on the driver side head from underneath. Blue is Felpro
Isn’t it ?
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/3a3ea9222bbe503ee9e34701d0effa 6b.jpg



Video to follow …

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/94c51f15ac23723b51bb9cb31db6a5 4e.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/50b3f9c2eda10c087852458961f57d f1.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/84d42e55cfa5bd6d47544fa10ff280 4f.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/d2be4540fb49da8dcb083df05ad4fc 9d.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/a928e9c7e95476c5def0dc88b90d69 f9.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/c2795ac8c00899d9f18684d26bb937 87.jpg





Video :



https://youtu.be/IyWi-cDgESI


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[8UWITH6]

Just drive the car.:D

[justbob]

Okay, that noise is not normal. The marks almost look to be from a hold down tool? Also that flexplate and converter don’t appear to be turning very true at all?

You may have already diagnosed this as a cracked flexplate. Hopefully that’s all it is and not a damaged front pump from the converter not being seated properly.

I don’t remember the color of the factory head gaskets but I really want to say they were definitely not felpro blue.. Only thing is, besides the easily missed ground strap and the marks on the converter, I don’t see any identifying marks of work being done anytime in the last decade? Everything seems to be in place and quite rusty.

What’s worrisome is the small evidence of work being done on a very low mile car compared to the thousands out there with 200,000+ perfectly healthy examples. In my opinion any Marauder under let’s say 185,000 miles and treated with respect is considered a low mile car. Not kidding. These things are absolute tanks.

These cars can take back to back daily beat downs and ask for more every time. All they ask for is fresh fluids and to not exceed the rev limit by several hundred LOL.

Any vibrations? You can weld the engine mounts solid and hardly tell any difference at all these run so smooth.

The trans cross members are pressed in on these frames and removing them can be a sumbitch if you don’t use a 5’ dig bar. See if there is any hammer or pry marks on that. Next I’d check for scratch marks on the engine mount nuts and exhaust manifold to pipe studs, ECT. Basically just follow the bread crumbs for a hint of history.

It may just simply be it had some head work done at one time and they rotated the flexplate to time it back up and by coincidence it has cracked all on its own? Like I mentioned there has been cases but for the most part rare. It could have simply overheated because so many struggle on the burping process.

As for which is easier to remove to access it, tough call. I’ve had these engines out with all accessories, harness, long tube headers, even the blower still attached in as little as an hour and fifteen, obviously using a lift and not dealing with rusty bolts. My ceiling stops me from lifting more than about 4’ 7” so I don’t have a real efficient way of easily removing the trans besides a floor jack on top of my tool cart LOL. Removing the wiper cowl is pretty much step one for lots of repairs on this car, it seriously opens up A LOT of room!

Let us know what you find.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[klowpez]

I appreciate you following along-Thank you for your time.

That's kind of what I was thinking- and no it definitely seems wobbly -though hard to tell exactly from that tiny hole I can't tell if it's the rust and the way the light was hitting it playing a trick on me. I wonder if there's an easier way to tell?

You're right, that's what I was looking for. Even the manifold bolts/hardware on the driver side with the blue gasket are equally rusty.
The transmission crossmember seems to be all in place as well. I tried getting warranty records from Ford customer support but they weren't helpful, they told me I have to go to the original dealer that did the work to find out which I don't know what dealer it was. Seems like Carfax wasn't too popular those years yet or the owner worked on it himself. My thought is that years ago, early on, maybe they completed some type of warranty on that driver's head? Pulled the motor and all. I didn't pull the starter as I couldn't leave the car on the lift last night- but I think that's my next step to see if i can't get a better look in there.

There is a faint vibration from 15/1600-1900 RPM . Haven't noticed it driving it around town. No real motor vibration that's why I was hesitant to call it piston slap or some bottom end racket. The car otherwise idles very smoothly, drives perfectly in my opinion. Accelerates hard without hesitation, Everything still solid, no rattles,etc.

I'll upload some other pics soon but it doesn't look like anything else besides the exhaust with the rear mufflers being replaced has been touched. That's the newest hardware I could see. Maybe you guys see something else. I forgot to look at the motor mount bolts from underneath.

Overall-the car runs perfectly, shifts perfectly, but obviously if I can get this perfectly smooth and quiet-i'll be happy.

You say the flexplate is rare-but has happened. Do you remember if anyone ever actually confirmed this? I searched but i'm coming up with build threads mostly.

[klowpez]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/192a85a25aac551c0193f247d154a9 5c.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/37f7c0eceddccc779be20abc1aced4 1c.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/10de29827a3c8dbf93341e0ff86b79 96.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/3dae48f89b91351cd1254b2545ead3 78.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/af9e9077acea8d360ccacb9235ff3f 58.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/17670d9eacd26dc3627a794c0063b6 b4.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/60e9e032b7bb01fb03a9dc00f00c43 70.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/1900c6710d782942e1cf71743e1619 a8.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221222/c9ad16b6771dc7feaa6e210a4ecb5d d4.jpg
No name mufflers out back.
Trans pan doesn’t look like it’s ever been touched.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[justbob]

Save yourself the aggravation of the starter or more so the PITA top bolt. There is an inspection plug on the drivers side of the block. You’ll be able to see more of the flexplate face but sometimes cracks are really hard to see or they’re closer to the mounting holes.

You could always put a dial indicator on it and spin it by hand but that really won’t tell you much as nothing in there is perfectly true.

And yes there have been a handful of documented cracked ones, more so on the F150 boards obviously. Same 164 tooth flexplate.


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk Pro

[klowpez]

Thanks for the heads up.

I think I saw that plug , kind of square looking one off to the bottom/ side?

I ordered one of those cheapy borescopes off Amazon to give me a good shot at peeking in there.
I’ll report back with my findings.

Thanks again


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[klowpez]

I figured I’d give a quick update. No solution yet but I did get the inspection covers off and used a bore scope to try and see in there. I couldn’t find a smoking gun unfortunately.

The only “weird” thing I saw was a sc***** tooth on the flex plate, a bolt that looked like it had maybe paint around it and some ugly welds? But no cracks or anything at least as far up as I could see. Which brings me to my next question.

Are the OE flexplates welded ?? https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221227/a6dce94545dab9b40e6c2cf1a37028 27.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221227/e8c9fe5a9ea62cb7bfa66570bf53a9 4f.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221227/42533bc840bdd45c2244a6f029d8dc 44.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221227/5dc05a8be67e56ddfba386fb2d4c81 10.jpg
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221227/61951ea1b503d2e7ccf180c08bd6cd 9a.jpg


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

[blazen71]

Cracks will usually start at the crank mounting holes. If the crack hasn't spread past the crank flange, you won't see any cracks till the transmission is removed.

Just listened to the video. As long as the video is picking up all the sounds, I'd guess its not the rotating assembly. Usually you'd hear a double "knock" or "slap". I'm hearing a single knock.