NOTHING is better than TURBO!

[woaface]

Ooook. Any of you all watch the Horse Power TV a few weeks ago where they were talking about how turbo's are really cool and how superchargers "take power to make power" and can waste (and the guys language made it sound like most or all superchargers do this) 30% to make the extra 100 or so horses you get. Blah blah blah, turbos are so great, the new ones don't put backflow on your engine and look at this neat civic and the cool exhaust system we've got for it that makes it fart and blow black smoke on TV!

Ok, now, if the new turbo systems can put less backflow on your engine then I'm sure the newer superchargers for variours cars depending on type don't take as much of 30% of your power to make power? Please educate me.

Hey, has anyone on the board been around 13.5 in the quarter N/A and tried the 5.0 upgraded heads and shafts and stuff? That's what I would love to see and maybe try someday.:burnout: :burnout: :burnout:

[MENINBLK]

All of your cars with the lowest R/T are SuperCharged for a reason.

S/C is POWER that is always READY when YOU want it,
not when it is good and ready to give it to you.

[martyo]

All of your cars with the lowest R/T are SuperCharged for a reason.

S/C is POWER that is always READY when YOU want it,
not when it is good and ready to give it to you.

Pete: First, I think you mean "E/T" not "R/T"

Second, have you looked at what our Mustang brothers are doing with turbos and twin turbos on their cars? Talk abou scarey fast.....

[merc406]

Second, have you looked at what our Mustang brothers are doing with turbos and twin turbos on their cars? Talk abou scarey fast.....



One reason they are so good now with no lag is they are using nitrous with them, check this out---http://www.diy-nitrous.fsnet.co.uk/nitrous-with-turbos.htm

[hitchhiker]

Ooook. Any of you all watch the Horse Power TV a few weeks ago where they were talking about how turbo's are really cool and how superchargers "take power to make power" and can waste (and the guys language made it sound like most or all superchargers do this) 30% to make the extra 100 or so horses you get. Blah blah blah, turbos are so great, the new ones don't put backflow on your engine and look at this neat civic and the cool exhaust system we've got for it that makes it fart and blow black smoke on TV!

Ok, now, if the new turbo systems can put less backflow on your engine then I'm sure the newer superchargers for variours cars depending on type don't take as much of 30% of your power to make power? Please educate me.

Hey, has anyone on the board been around 13.5 in the quarter N/A and tried the 5.0 upgraded heads and shafts and stuff? That's what I would love to see and maybe try someday.:burnout: :burnout: :burnout:
If you will read previous threads you will see that this had been eliminated as a viable option for our cars, for the most part, due to the awkward exhaust
routing under the second cross member that would be required.

Perhaps someone has or will find a way around this...?

How 'bout it Todd, aren't you working on a four turbo monster?

:lol:

Best Regards

David

[SixAppeal]

All of your cars with the lowest R/T are SuperCharged for a reason.

S/C is POWER that is always READY when YOU want it,
not when it is good and ready to give it to you.
How boring would the car world be if everyone put a supercharger on their car? Turbo lag is just something you have to build the car to overcome.. kinda like how the marauder weighs 4500lbs.

Somehow I still manage to pull a 1.65 60ft, no nitrous :D

[MENINBLK]

Pete: First, I think you mean "E/T" not "R/T"

No...
I meant REACTION TIME.

From the time you put your foot on the accelerator and the car begins to launch is the Reaction Time.
With a Turbo, you bury the gas pedal and WAIT...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

With a SuperCharger, there is NO waiting !

Even with TWIN Turbos, there still is a lag unless you've got the Turbos spinning and the engine loaded !

The Turbos also don't sit bolted directly to the Intake Manifold.
The only vehicle I've seen with the Turbo sitting right on the Intake Manifold was the Buick Regal Grand National.
The only thing separating the two was the Throttle Body.

Turbos usually sit so far away from the top of the engine that it takes time for the turbo
to pressurize all of the plumbing involved and to deliver a steady and constant flow volume of air to the engine.

Turbos also tend to BOUNCE between the exhaust pressure and the intake boost pressure,
making them a very nasty system to monitor and control.

SuperCharging is controlled by what we all know...Engine RPM.
The ratio of Blower RPM to Engine RPM is controlled by pulleys that we can set.
SuperChargers deliver a level volume and pressure of air that can be easier to control and adjust than a Turbo.

The amount of energy produced from a SuperCharger can overcome the amout of energy it takes the engine to crank it.


Second, have you looked at what our Mustang brothers are doing with turbos and twin turbos on their cars? Talk about scarey fast.....
There is a difference between being fast and quick.
A turbo can make you scary fast, yes...
But SuperCharger can make you wicked quick !!

The only real benefit I can see of having a turbo is at higher RPMs.
A good Turbo can keep up with the demands of the intake and exhaust at higher RPMs,
whereas a SuperCharger tends to run out of breath.

On a 1/4 mile run, the SuperCharger pulls from the tree to the finish line.
The Turbo doesn't start to really work its magic until you're in 2nd gear,
and at that point it will pull harder down the line to the finish.

In December 1987, a friend and I bought two Mitsubishis.
I bought a 5 speed Mirage and my friend bought a 5 speed fully loaded TurboCharged Starion.
Whenever we got up against eachother, from a dead stop, I had him through 1st gear,
and it took him half of his 2nd gear to catch me.
I had a 1.5L 3-valve NA 81HP/91TQ 4cyl.
The Starion had a 2.6L 188HP/234TQ Turbo 4cyl.
(More then 2X my HP and 2.5X TQ)

He took his Starion to the dealership TWICE complaining of the poor pickup it had.
The third time he went back, they told him to learn to drive a turbo.
I went with him on a roadtest.
The Service Manager coudn't beat me any better than my friend could,
and we ate lunch on him that day.
It was the funniest experience we had with a Turbo, and we learned a lot about how a Turbo worked.
It wasn't until his turbo was replaced, his heads milled, and the cats gutted, before he could take me in 1st gear.

So I am a SuperCharger believer, and a Turbo denyer.
I've had a lot of experience with a lot of different vehicles.
I've also serviced quite a few vehicles in my llifetime.
If you plan out what you're trying to accomplish and add the correct physics, and chemistry,
there are environments where each technology shines its brightest.

I believe that TurboCharging is NOT for accelerating off the line.
Its a lot of heat and plumbing for the gains, and the gains don't come into play
until you can produce the volume of air needed to create the gains.

[MICA Racing]

Both turbochargers and superchargers have come a long way in the last 10 years alone. Both have good applications, much like the talked-to-death Roots vs. centrifugal vs. modified Roots vs. Mr. Fusion vs. flux capacitor debate. Turbos, in a properly designed system, can and do produce amazing power with much less lag than before (the Porsche 935 K3 is an example of a powerful yet poorly-designed system - 880 bhp out of a 2.8L air cooled 6-cylinder with 3 days of boost lag). Turbos are much like a centrifugal supercharger in their design, and similarly are in their element when used when maximum power is the key. A supercharger, even a centrifugal if it's properly designed like Dennis' kit seems to be, produces more immediate boost and better drivabilty than a similar turbo setup, but at the cost of some parasitic loss through the drive. Better designed turbo systems with less boost lag, and better designed supercharger systems (Roots with better top end power, centrifugal with less parasitic loss, etc.) have narrowed the gap, but each still is a good system in the right application. I would think that rather than go to the trouble of redesigning the whell, if you want maximum boost with less lag, have Dennis design a kit with that in mind. You'll probably need to start with a Signature Series Cobra motor, or have the MM motor gone completely through, before adding any more power than Dennis is already getting. With a setup like that, you might lose a little drivability compared to the Trilogy or Reinhart off-the-shelf systems, but it would still be more drivable than the turbo setup.

I would like to point out, in the spirit of James' original reason for this post, that I laugh a lot outside (& die a little inside) everytime these Honda guys try to convince the rest of the world that they know more than we do because their cars are more high tech, they're on the cutting-edge of technology, etc. What these guys don't realize is that they are doing all the same stuff we've been doing since the days of the flathead V-8 (the most aesthetically pleasing engine ever built, to my eye), just with 200 pounds of ugly bodywork, paint, & stickers to go with their impropery designed exhaust, whose tip is almost as big as our wheels. Rather than learn from all our collective mistakes, these little hard-headed *******s try to reinvent the wheel, the exhaust, and every other part of the car. I've seen a very few imports designed properly, and they are very fast, but these 'Fast & Furious' (in bed, maybe - they're too fast and their date is too furious) guys just crack me up.

My rant is over now. My head hurts. I'm sorry if I offended anyone, it's truly not what I'm after, I just had to get this import thing off my chest as politely and eloquently as possible. Please send all hate mail to notimeforchildishgames@yourcar sucks.com:shot:

BTW SixAppeal - great screen name, sweet car, and wish you were in Houston so I could try for the MM.net discount on some PPL lessons.:lol:

[SixAppeal]

No...

I meant REACTION TIME.

From the time you put your foot on the accelerator and the car begins to launch is the Reaction Time.
With a Turbo, you bury the gas pedal and WAIT...zzzzzzzzzzzzzzzz.

With a SuperCharger, there is NO waiting !OK everyone knows turbos have lag..

As far as reaction time, that's the driver's problem.




I believe that TurboCharging is NOT for accelerating off the line..
:confused: I believe in my 60ft times.

[MENINBLK]

OK everyone knows turbos have lag..

As far as reaction time, that's the driver's problem.

Turbos also have a small part of it.

You don't have much of it with the Regal,
because Buick designed the Turbo to sit right next to the intake,
with the smallest amount of airspace to pressurize,
so your lag is negligible compared to some vehicles with
yards of plumbing that needs to be pressurized
before the boost reaches the intake valve.

Its not about how fast the pressure can be created,
its how much VOLUME has to be pressurized
before it even means something at the intake valve !!!

[SixAppeal]

Turbos also have a small part of it.

You don't have much of it with the Regal,
because Buick designed the Turbo to sit right next to the intake,
with the smallest amount of airspace to pressurize,
so your lag is negligible compared to some vehicles with
yards of plumbing that needs to be pressurized
before the boost reaches the intake valve.

Its not about how fast the pressure can be created,
its how much VOLUME has to be pressurized
before it even means something at the intake valve !!!
I think you may be referring to the 84/85 non-intercooled Turbo Buicks?

[MENINBLK]

I think you may be referring to the 84/85 non-intercooled Turbo Buicks?

The 87s also had minimal plumbing between the Turbo and the Intake.
The only addition was the intercooler, and the turbo was moved slightly to make room for the elbow in the plumbing.
Otherwise it was a clean and very well done job.

I've seen people plumb a turbo to an intake from across the engine bay.
Then they wonder why they have a real bad lag...

[Krytin]

While I believe that turbos can & do produce great HP and in a well designed system can hold their own against comparable s/c applications, my only complaint against them is the way they cook the lube oil going through them! I worked on t/c natural gas fired engine/generator sets for over 3 years - and the only problem I had was oil degradation due to high temps! Even then, the main problem was more frequent oil changes.

[woaface]

Lol, and I thought when I first posted it that no one would find it in the Garage.

I think I can be turned on by the idea of a turbo, and I heard one of the new Neons the other day in a parking lot and the rev up/blow off thing was waaaay cool.

But I really agree here with what was said about all these kids think they're on the top of technology and they're not...and they're dumb, and I tell you what. Whether my car is faster or slower than theirs...guess who get's the ladies:up: And I'm the ONLY guy who ever hears "Wow, look at that back seat!" And all the guys go "HOLY **** Look at that TRUNK! How many subs can you fit in there!?"

Which, for the more moral of you, I've never used.

Ok I need to read the thread a few more times, there's a lot to learn here!:bows: :bows: :bows:

[MICA Racing]

But I really agree here with what was said about all these kids think they're on the top of technology and they're not...and they're dumb, and I tell you what. Whether my car is faster or slower than theirs...guess who get's the ladies:up: And I'm the ONLY guy who ever hears "Wow, look at that back seat!" And all the guys go "HOLY **** Look at that TRUNK! How many subs can you fit in there!?"

Which, for the more moral of you, I've never used.

Ok I need to read the thread a few more times, there's a lot to learn here!:bows: :bows: :bows:
Thanks and well put about getting the ladies - and BTW, which have you never used, the backseat or the trunk?? :D

[teamrope]

If turbos are so great, why aren't NHRA top fuel cars running them instead of bloweres? :confused:

I'll be impressed when they dip down into the 4.50's. :D

[teamrope]

Thanks and well put about getting the ladies - and BTW, which have you never used, the backseat or the trunk?? :D
The trunk is almost big enough :lol:

[MICA Racing]

I say it's big enough if you want it bad enough. Ok I'll stop.

[MitchB]

Jim Oneil is building my twin turbo 1993 Thunderbird. I have done a lot of research on turbos. I've seen a lot of dyno sheets, seen all the tuning issues and seen many of the design flaws. Most often, as is the case here, people do not understand how a turbocharger works, nor realize the benifits of a well thought out design. I will say that, in particular, a well designed turbo system would work better on the Marauder than just about any supercharger I can think of that is currently available. This in light of the fact that, in the overwhelming number of cases, most Marauder owners drive their cars in 'normal' street/highway driving 99% of the time. Under these conditions, a turbo (again, a well designed system) will produce much more low speed and part throttle torque than any supercharger. Throttle response or turbo lag, as you call it, is a function of many variables that go into the design. I expect to make full boost by 2400 RPM which is wayyy lower than most superchargers are capable of. This same design gave so much more area under the torque curve compared to any supercharger system including positive displacement blowers. In the case of most Marauder owners, it's part throttle torque that will make the car more enjoyable to drive and peak HP is comparable to the best centrifugal blowers. Oh, and yes it does take a lot of power to drive a blower. Typical numbers from the most efficient blowers (centrifugal, twin screw) are in the range of 60-80 HP to drive a blower in your typical 400 RWHP Mustang. Conversely, Porche did a study many years ago measuring the amount of power consumed by the turbocharger in their early design systems. The numbers they found were very low - well below 10% at the crankshaft. This was published data. I can go on, but I have found time and again that regardless of the facts available, people will believe what they want. So if you have a supercharger or want a supercharger, than that's OK. A turbo system is much more difficult to design and involves a lot of engineering knowledge that is not widely known. But don't believe that turbos do this or that or can't do something else unless you can point to some very specific data that supports your position.

Mitch

[MENINBLK]

But don't believe that turbos do this or that or can't do something else unless you can point to some very specific data that supports your position.

So let me ask the question...

How much $$$ does this well thought out design going to run you ???

We all know that a Trilogy runs about $7500 installed.

[MICA Racing]

Point well taken, it's true that turbo systems can be designed to achieve their max boost at lower rpms (turbodiesels, off-road trucks with systems designed for low-rpm power, etc.). Either type of system can be designed properly by a knowledgeable engineer to work their magic in different ranges. My point from my post was that a well thought-out turbo system, assuming there are no compromises made in the design because of a tight engine compartment, etc., has very little lag, and almost no parasitic loss as you will find in a supercharger. anyone who's ever felt an a/c compressor cycle on and off in a low-powered car like a Miata can imagine if the compressor takes that much power from the engine, how much a compressor designed to force enough air into the engine to make 50% more power must rob. The key benefit to a turbo system is it's lack of parasitic loss, and ability to make large power increases. The problem has traditionally been turbo lag, but this has been largely wiped out, as I said, in the last 10 years, much because of the work of Porsche in their racing and road car design programs. The biggest problem is finding room in late model cars, already cluttered under the hood, to design a turbo system that cuts the turbo lag to low levels. It is possible, but at this point requires an expensive custom system designed by someone who thoroughly understands the design - most turbo 'kits' available are far too compromised to give acceptable low-end performance. All turbo designs will have some lag, as the turbocharger must wait for the engine to produce exhaust pressure to spin the impeller. However, by shortening the run to the intake, and minimizing the volume of intake air that must be pressurized, lag can be significantly reduced. A superchager does not have to wait for exhaust pressure, as it drives directly off the engine, so although max boost may not happen any quicker than with a turbo, partial boost is available as soon as the supercharger can pressurize the intake charge, again a product of intake volume, so the supercharger can almost always produce partial boost quicker then a turbocharger. Porsche has been at the forefront of turbocharger system design basically from day one, and the newer 993 and 996 type twin turbo systems are much better than the 964 and previous type cars. Your custom system, with two smaller turbos with lower inertia to spin up, sounds like an ideal start to combat the problem of turbo lag. The reason I recommended supercharging using an existing system, or modifiying an existing system, is due to the fact that the cost of designing a proper system from scratch for our cars would be very expensive, and with good, well thought-out designs for supercharger kits widely available from the vendors here, the cost to design a turbo setup from scratch would for me be simply too high to warrant the $$ and headaches when I can start with DR's system and if desired make relatively inexpensive changes to tune for more power, more drivabilty, etc. You do lose power through parasitic loss, but elimianting that loss by spending untold fortunes on a new design for me wouldn't be worth it.

[2003 MIB]

I don't have anything to add but find this thread very interesting and couldn't figure out how to subscribe without posting. Carry on, Gentlemen.

[jerrym3]

Then, theoretically, the ideal set up is a turbo that is belt driven until sufficient RPMs are built up. Then, the belt/pully system/clutch becomes freewheeling until it's needed again at low RPM.

Piece of cake.

[MICA Racing]

That actually would be an ideal solution on the surface. I wonder if anyone has experimented with something like that? I have often thought of using an electronically controlled clutch on a centrifugal supercharger to activate the system with the push of a button (ideally with an adjustable delay in the clutch to prevent sudden 'grabbing') to do away with the parasitic loss while the SC was not desired. However, it would still leave the parasitic loss issue when the system engaged, so your idea or an exhaust and belt driven turbo seems very interesting. The only problem I see is that now we're talking big money, but if someone took the time to develop it and get the technology out there, it might work once enough were out there to make them cost-efficient. But as you were pointing out earlier, a truly well-designed turbo system would have such a low level of turbo lag, it almost negates the need for something like this. However, if it could be designed effectively, you could truly have the best of both worlds. You might even be able to introduce a gear drive to the belt drive protion to lower the parasitic loss when it's in 'SC mode'. Kinda neat...

[woaface]

Interesting! It would then seem like the build up in a smaller to larger displacement V8 like ours or one on say, a corvette, would be very quick and very powerful if designed correctly, even at a low RPM.

So why then, do most of the rice boys turbo? Or, NOS seems to be loved by them as well.

[MICA Racing]

Interesting! It would then seem like the build up in a smaller to larger displacement V8 like ours or one on say, a corvette, would be very quick and very powerful if designed correctly, even at a low RPM.

So why then, do most of the rice boys turbo? Or, NOS seems to be loved by them as well.
To be honest James, as hard as I try I can't understand what import guys think most of the time. But in this case, I would say that on a 1.6 or 1.8L 4 cylinder, you can't afford to give up any of your power to turn a supercharger, so a turbo, even those crappy kits they sell, are still worlds better than a supercharger. And I have seen 2 or 3 guys that took the time to do a turbo system right on Hondas and Acuras, and they absolutely scream from around 3000-3500 rpm all the way up to redline, which I thought was pretty impressive to get good boost at such a low rpm (low rpm for 9800 rpm 4 cylinders). Jackson Racing sells a SC kit for the Miata, and others, but on little engines like that they don't see the kind of performance gains because the smaller engine doesn't have much extra power to begin with. As far as nitrous oxide, I think they like it for the same reason everyone does - for less than $1000 you can get a good kit and add a lot of power to your car without spending the 6-8K for a good SC or TC system (installed). These seem like reasonable explanations to me, but if anyone has anything better let us know. For all I know they could like the shiny polished blow-off valves and pretty blue bottles that match their neon.

[woaface]

Yeah the twin turbos that Porsche makes are extrememly cool!

I like the S/C systems on the Marauder though. Almost all of the guys with the $6-9k kits are running below 4.5 to sixty or faster. A twin turboed MM would be cool, but I talked to someone who looked at "20 different ways" to turbo a Marauder but it didn't work because of the funky exhaust...or something to that extent.

[Krytin]

While turbos have very little parasitic load compared to s/c's - they do have parasitic load. The laws of physics won't allow "something for nothing". Even though turbos are recovering "wasted" energy going out the tailpipe. The exhaust wheel on the turbo is creating backpressure on the exhaust and the more boost it generates, the more back pressure. The fact that it is reclaiming energy from the exhaust is what helps make the parasitic load #'s as low as they are.
I'm not saying turbos are bad - it is a good machine - just not a miracle machine.

[JZ 97 SS 1500]

A twin turboed MM would be cool, but I talked to someone who looked at "20 different ways" to turbo a Marauder but it didn't work because of the funky exhaust...or something to that extent.
Their is a turbo kit out for the MM. PTK makes the kit, its a single turbo system with full headers, front mount intercooler. The kit is rated 700hp, and comes with fuel components as well.

[BruteForce]

Got a link to that?

[JZ 97 SS 1500]

I will pm you the link..

[woaface]

Their is a turbo kit out for the MM. PTK makes the kit, its a single turbo system with full headers, front mount intercooler. The kit is rated 700hp, and comes with fuel components as well.
Lol, joining just to post that? You better give me more stats man! A stock MM engine would blow to bits with something like that done, and I'm sure it was looked at.

So where are you from? What do you drive? Is your real name Marty or Todd?

[JZ 97 SS 1500]

I've been lurking the board for some time, just never registered. Saw this post and read that not turbo kits were on the market. Well just trying to help the MM community out some. I am a performance enthusiast just like the rest of you. I own several toys...

97 Camaro SS #1500 6spd 383 PTK PTE-88

95 Eagle Talon TSI AWD 5spd 16G turbo

94 Toyota MK4 Supra Twin turbo 6spd BPU

87 GN PTE-70

88 Toyota MK3 Supra CT26/T04 upgraded

I'm not brand loyal or anything, just always on a quest for more speed....hehe.

Jose

[SixAppeal]

I will pm you the link..
http://www.proturbokits.com/news/newsDetail.asp?id=13

[JZ 97 SS 1500]

The standard kit comes with a T64E which is a pretty small unit. It will make 700 crank hp, but for the big boys I would just go with a T70 or T76 in its place, which can be upgraded in. Even with the smallish T64E turned down to only 6-7psi which is out of the turbos efficiency range the kit belted out 371 rwhp and 471 rwtq. Enough torque to compete with the powerstroke...hehe

[TAF]

And I know of at least 2 Marauders already that have "grenaded" using these kits. As well...the install, with the exhaust going under the K-member is "ghetto". Been there, done that research, would not recommend anyone trying it. Only way to do it is to get rid of the AC to get the exhaust out. Between the steering column and the AC unit...we don't have the room in our engine bays.

[MICA Racing]

Todd, good post. Jose and SixAppeal, thanks for the info. James, LMAO. Krytin, good point (you know, you're OK for a John Kerry kind of guy :D ). Guys, I think so far we've managed to have a civil post!

[BruteForce]

... Well just trying to help the MM community out some...
Jose

The best way to help the community is to "pay your way" as a supporting vendor rather than posting a drive-by teaser. :rolleyes:

[MitchB]

All turbo designs will have some lag, as the turbocharger must wait for the engine to produce exhaust pressure to spin the impeller. However, by shortening the run to the intake, and minimizing the volume of intake air that must be pressurized, lag can be significantly reduced.

Let me stop you right here. This is where most people do not grasp the fundamentals and principles of turbocharging. And my intention is not to pick specifically on you.

Let's be clear on one point: the overwhelming majority of the energy used to drive a turbo comes not from the pumping action of the engine against the exhaust empeller. This is a misnomer. With this said, however, you can invertantly create a design that will rely on backpressure. This you do not want.

Most of the energy used to drive a turbo comes from the heat content in the exhaust. An ideal design would place a turbo(s) right off the exhaust port where you have the greatest amount of heat. Measure the inlet and outlet to a turbocharger turbine wheel and you will see a temperature drop. Take a 'typical' 450 RWHP Mustang twin turbo with the turbos not more than 18 inches away from the ports. The turbo specifications are not important here, but take as a given they are capable of 800 RWHP max at 20 lbs of manifold pressure. You will find a temperature drop in the range of 300 to 350 degrees across the turbine. If you could measure the increase in pressure at the exhaust port as a differential compared to a comparable normally aspirated setup, your delta 'P' would be close to immeasurable or insignificant. The main function of a turbocharger is to capture residual heat in the exhaust and to convert this energy into work. If you think about this, you will realize that turbo 'lag', understood as the time required to spool a turbo, largely does not exist. As soon as you open the throttle, you draw more air into the cylinders and at the same time, add more fuel. This gives an immediate increase in the exhaust temp. The turbo sees this heat and converts it to work immediately. The intake ducting volume (partly a function of ducting length) is not as important as you might think. It is much more important to minimize the exhaust volume compared to the intake runner volume.

As you increase the volume of space between the turbo and the exhaust port, you force the turbo to work, on balance, by relying more on the pumping action of the pistons. In such a design, you now have to 'crutch' the valve timing to give larger intake durations. The heat principle here gets washed out and the efficiency and performance characteristics of turbocharging get lost. Such was the state of early turbocharging designs and some of the designs I see on the market today.

Mitch

[MENINBLK]

Their is a turbo kit out for the MM. PTK makes the kit, its a single turbo system with full headers, front mount intercooler. The kit is rated 700hp, and comes with fuel components as well.

And how much $$$$$ ???

[BillyGman]

I have three things to say here:


#1. You can mod your car anyway you want, and I'll still be as friendly to you as a fellow Marauder owner as I would be to almost anyone on this board. And I sincerely mean that. It's your car, so do w/it what you want. I'll offer my preferences at times, but the decision is yours, and I respect that.

#2. However, if there's someone who hasn't made any choices at all for their Marauder in the way of forced induction, and they're going to claim that any set-up that hasn't successfully been acheived on any significant number of Marauders (such as Turbo chargers), is as good, or even better than a set-up of forced induction which HAS been proven on a number of Marauders such as the Trilogy S/Cer kit, and the Reinhart S/Cer kit, then that's nothing but words, and talk is cheap. If anyone here wants to say that a Marauder would be better, faster, or more reliable or durable w/a Turbo charger system than it can be w/any of the S/Cer systems that have already been proven, then my challenge to you is PROVE IT. Put your $$ where your keyboard is, and use your own car to prove it. As far as I'm concerned, until somebody does that, then any talk of a Marauder being a "better mouse trap" if it's Turbo charged than it is if it's SUPERCHARGED is nothing but hot air.

#3. I have one other thing to add. It makes me laugh when people comment about the 30% parasitic losses of a Roots S/Cer on a car that's making "400 RWHP" and who fails to point out that no matter what the parasitic losses are, 400 HP is 400 HP wether you have 30% parasitic loss or 0% parasitic loss. My car makes exactly 400 HP at the rear wheels, and frankly I don't care what the parasitic loss of the S/Cer is. The fact remains that my car is still putting 400 HP to the rear wheels regardless of the parasitic losses caused by the S/C.

Wether it's intentional or not, you can mislead people by not pointing out here what I have pointed out. If the dyno shows that your car is putting 400 HP to the rear wheels, and you are accomplishing that w/a roots S/Cer, then that doesn't mean that you have to subtract 30% of that 400 HP figure to arrive at your final net HP figure. Your car is still making 400 HP at the wheels. And you know what? That's the same 400 HP as a turbo charged car that's putting 400 HP to the wheels is making.

So go ahead. Become your own engineer, and use your $30,000 car to be a prototype test car and show me a Turbocharger kit that will give your Marauder 400 HP to the rear wheels. Go ahead. I want to see you accomplish that. And when you do, I'll meet you at the track to give you an opportunity to show everyone else what you've accomplished. And then after we've both put a respectable 10,000 more miles on each one of our Marauders, then I want to see you at the track again w/the same set-ups,and these same two cars there (mine and yours) and we will run again to also prove who's daily driver stood the test of time.

And while we're at it, let's both bring our sales receipts to show people how much our forced induction projects costed us. And then we can let our cars talk the real talk instead of mere theories and what-ifs. If you can do that, then more power to ya. And you just might get one or two other Marauder owners who are as much a risk taker as you are, to follow what you've done.

But as for me, there's a company who has already done the engineering, and the testing for me, (namely Trilogy Motorsports) put together a complete Supercharger kit that's been designed specifically for the 2003, & 2004 Marauder only, and who has gone through 30,000 miles of testing, street driving, and dragstrip racing on their Marauder for me already. And furthermore, there's been literally dozens of people (many of whom are members of this board) who have had this same Supercharger kit installed on thier Marauders before me, and who've had no engine problems w/their cars.

There are three dozen of us Marauder owners w/Trilogy S/Cers in our cars, close to two dozen Marauder owners who have Dennis Reinhart's S/Cer kits on their cars, and let's not forget about another two dozen Kenny Brown Marauders that are also S/Ced, and have many thousands of miles on them too. So we're talking literally about 80 Marauders that are S/Ced, w/perhaps 20 or 30 of those S/Ced Marauder owners being members of this board.

So when there are atleast 20% of that number of Marauders that have been successfully Turbo charged, and can run atleast as fast in the 1/4 mile as our S/Ced Marauders do, then what people are saying here about Turbo chargers will hold some weight on a Marauder board. Until that happens, it's just turbo smoke. Nothing more. :)

[Krytin]

Billy, as always, you seem to find the right words! I couldn't agree more!
Thanks,
Paul

[Krytin]

Let me stop you right here. This is where most people do not grasp the fundamentals and principles of turbocharging. And my intention is not to pick specifically on you.

Let's be clear on one point: the overwhelming majority of the energy used to drive a turbo comes not from the pumping action of the engine against the exhaust empeller. This is a misnomer. With this said, however, you can invertantly create a design that will rely on backpressure. This you do not want.

Most of the energy used to drive a turbo comes from the heat content in the exhaust. An ideal design would place a turbo(s) right off the exhaust port where you have the greatest amount of heat. Measure the inlet and outlet to a turbocharger turbine wheel and you will see a temperature drop. Take a 'typical' 450 RWHP Mustang twin turbo with the turbos not more than 18 inches away from the ports. The turbo specifications are not important here, but take as a given they are capable of 800 RWHP max at 20 lbs of manifold pressure. You will find a temperature drop in the range of 300 to 350 degrees across the turbine. If you could measure the increase in pressure at the exhaust port as a differential compared to a comparable normally aspirated setup, your delta 'P' would be close to immeasurable or insignificant. The main function of a turbocharger is to capture residual heat in the exhaust and to convert this energy into work. If you think about this, you will realize that turbo 'lag', understood as the time required to spool a turbo, largely does not exist. As soon as you open the throttle, you draw more air into the cylinders and at the same time, add more fuel. This gives an immediate increase in the exhaust temp. The turbo sees this heat and converts it to work immediately. The intake ducting volume (partly a function of ducting length) is not as important as you might think. It is much more important to minimize the exhaust volume compared to the intake runner volume.

As you increase the volume of space between the turbo and the exhaust port, you force the turbo to work, on balance, by relying more on the pumping action of the pistons. In such a design, you now have to 'crutch' the valve timing to give larger intake durations. The heat principle here gets washed out and the efficiency and performance characteristics of turbocharging get lost. Such was the state of early turbocharging designs and some of the designs I see on the market today.

Mitch

You most certainly can measure a Delta P accross the exhaust side of a turbo - because I HAVE measured backpressure before & after the turbos on Caterpiller natural gas fired 3306 engine/generator sets over the course of three years. Depending on how much boost, the #'s ran into several psi!

[SixAppeal]

I might have missed the post where someone was saying turbo chargers are better for Maurauders, I havent had time to read everything. I will rarely argue over issues like this, I'm just glad people are at least trying different things!!

[BillyGman]

#2. However, IF there's someone who hasn't made any choices at all for their Marauder in the way of forced induction, and they're going to claim that any set-up that hasn't successfully been acheived on any significant number of Marauders (such as Turbo chargers), is as good, or even better than a set-up of forced induction which HAS been proven on a number of Marauders such as the Trilogy S/Cer kit, and the Reinhart S/Cer kit, then that's nothing but words, and talk is cheap.

This is a quote from my lengthy post so you can see that I wasn't neccessarily directing the entire post at any one person nor did this quote have to do w/you directly unless you have a Marauder that doesn't have a form of forced induction, and you're talking about, or considering a purchase in the way of forced induction for that car. This is a complex issue, so sometimes short answers and short statements do NOT help, but merely cause more confusion.


I know the member who has started this thread (James), I've talked w/him on the telephone (he's a great guy BTW) and I believe that he was directing his questions to all of us in a sense of how this forced induction issue relates to the panther platform. I also had a sense of where this thread was leading. And since this IS a Marauder board, and most of us board members DO have atleast one Marauder (some have two) then I think it would do the most good to the majority of my fellow board members here to put this all into perspective as to how this S/Cer vs. Turbo debate relates to our Marauders.

There's been a lot of fellow members writing PM's to me and asking me questions about what I think are the best choices for forced induction FOR THE MARAUDER, and/or the Crown Vic, and there's been a lot of talk about these types of issues on our board as of late which involve members who are trying to make the right choices for their MARAUDERS.

So that's the reason for my post. It was what I feel is needed to be said for the MAJORITY on this board. That doesn't mean that anyone who doesn't have a Marauder, Crown Vic, or Grand Marquis isn't welcome on this board. But you have to realize that even though we do talk about other cars here, most of the discussion concerning choice of modifications will evetually lead to talk about Marauder modifications.

So I was simply putting all this S/Cer vs. Turbo talk into perspective as to how it relates to us Marauder owners. And on a MARAUDER board, you'll have to anticipate that, and even expect it.

As far as "people trying different things" I think that's great as long as it's what they really want, and they can afford to conduct their own experimentation BEFORE making claims to others about what might apply to their cars.

I just try to consider those other members who are contemplating dropping some serious coin on their car for a form of forced induction (as I already have) who can be influenced in some way (good or bad) by other members who sometimes make claims about what is best, while they themselves haven't yet taken their own advice, and haven't even installed any form of forced induction on their Marauders yet. That doesn't neccessarily apply to you nor to anyone in this thread, but I've seen this pattern on this board before, and I try to head it off whenever I can. If you haven't seen it before on here, then stick around.

[MitchB]

You most certainly can measure a Delta P accross the exhaust side of a turbo - because I HAVE measured backpressure before & after the turbos on Caterpiller natural gas fired 3306 engine/generator sets over the course of three years. Depending on how much boost, the #'s ran into several psi!

I have worked for several years as a tech training superintendent for the NYC Transit Authority. We have over 4000 vehicles and I've worked on all applications, worked with many engineers - specifically on exhaust system design and performance issues - on diesel, CNG and Hybrid. I am involved in ongoing performance issues, failures, and design upgrades. Without going into detail, let me say that the example you give is not relevant!!!

Mitch

[MitchB]

This is, typically, the kind of response you'll eventually get when this vs that discussion starts up. Let me say that my intent is to point out some of the advantages of an alternate form of forced induction. I did not intend this to be a debate. A supercharger setup is, undoubtedly, the easiest way to get a large performance increase. Attempting a turbo install is much more difficult and largely impractical. In my individual case, I had an 11 lb Powerdyne setup and wanted to move on to something different. I am not advocating others do the same. But like I've said, I have spent several years studying the issues of turbocharging, spoke with people in the field, seen many, many tuning issues and dyno results and speak with a reasonable degree of knowledge and experience. So while I might have something to say, my intent is not to challenge anyone or evoke a defenseive response. There's more I could say regarding points given in the post below, but I won't....

Mitch




I have three things to say here:


#1. You can mod your car anyway you want, and I'll still be as friendly to you as a fellow Marauder owner as I would be to almost anyone on this board. And I sincerely mean that. It's your car, so do w/it what you want. I'll offer my preferences at times, but the decision is yours, and I respect that.

#2. However, if there's someone who hasn't made any choices at all for their Marauder in the way of forced induction, and they're going to claim that any set-up that hasn't successfully been acheived on any significant number of Marauders (such as Turbo chargers), is as good, or even better than a set-up of forced induction which HAS been proven on a number of Marauders such as the Trilogy S/Cer kit, and the Reinhart S/Cer kit, then that's nothing but words, and talk is cheap. If anyone here wants to say that a Marauder would be better, faster, or more reliable or durable w/a Turbo charger system than it can be w/any of the S/Cer systems that have already been proven, then my challenge to you is PROVE IT. Put your $$ where your keyboard is, and use your own car to prove it. As far as I'm concerned, until somebody does that, then any talk of a Marauder being a "better mouse trap" if it's Turbo charged than it is if it's SUPERCHARGED is nothing but hot air.

#3. I have one other thing to add. It makes me laugh when people comment about the 30% parasitic losses of a Roots S/Cer on a car that's making "400 RWHP" and who fails to point out that no matter what the parasitic losses are, 400 HP is 400 HP wether you have 30% parasitic loss or 0% parasitic loss. My car makes exactly 400 HP at the rear wheels, and frankly I don't care what the parasitic loss of the S/Cer is. The fact remains that my car is still putting 400 HP to the rear wheels regardless of the parasitic losses caused by the S/C.

Wether it's intentional or not, you can mislead people by not pointing out here what I have pointed out. If the dyno shows that your car is putting 400 HP to the rear wheels, and you are accomplishing that w/a roots S/Cer, then that doesn't mean that you have to subtract 30% of that 400 HP figure to arrive at your final net HP figure. Your car is still making 400 HP at the wheels. And you know what? That's the same 400 HP as a turbo charged car that's putting 400 HP to the wheels is making.

So go ahead. Become your own engineer, and use your $30,000 car to be a prototype test car and show me a Turbocharger kit that will give your Marauder 400 HP to the rear wheels. Go ahead. I want to see you accomplish that. And when you do, I'll meet you at the track to give you an opportunity to show everyone else what you've accomplished. And then after we've both put a respectable 10,000 more miles on each one of our Marauders, then I want to see you at the track again w/the same set-ups,and these same two cars there (mine and yours) and we will run again to also prove who's daily driver stood the test of time.

And while we're at it, let's both bring our sales receipts to show people how much our forced induction projects costed us. And then we can let our cars talk the real talk instead of mere theories and what-ifs. If you can do that, then more power to ya. And you just might get one or two other Marauder owners who are as much a risk taker as you are, to follow what you've done.

But as for me, there's a company who has already done the engineering, and the testing for me, (namely Trilogy Motorsports) put together a complete Supercharger kit that's been designed specifically for the 2003, & 2004 Marauder only, and who has gone through 30,000 miles of testing, street driving, and dragstrip racing on their Marauder for me already. And furthermore, there's been literally dozens of people (many of whom are members of this board) who have had this same Supercharger kit installed on thier Marauders before me, and who've had no engine problems w/their cars.

There are three dozen of us Marauder owners w/Trilogy S/Cers in our cars, close to two dozen Marauder owners who have Dennis Reinhart's S/Cer kits on their cars, and let's not forget about another two dozen Kenny Brown Marauders that are also S/Ced, and have many thousands of miles on them too. So we're talking literally about 80 Marauders that are S/Ced, w/perhaps 20 or 30 of those S/Ced Marauder owners being members of this board.

So when there are atleast 20% of that number of Marauders that have been successfully Turbo charged, and can run atleast as fast in the 1/4 mile as our S/Ced Marauders do, then what people are saying here about Turbo chargers will hold some weight on a Marauder board. Until that happens, it's just turbo smoke. Nothing more. :)

[BillyGman]

A supercharger setup is, undoubtedly, the easiest way to get a large performance increase. Attempting a turbo install is much more difficult and largely impractical. Mitch
If you had said that in the first place, then I would've agreed and you wouldn't have got such an intense response from me. But you didn't, and I was looking out for the members I know here who are considering a means of forced induction for their Marauders, and who have written to me about this. That's what you probably don't understand, and perhaps what you might not even be concerned with. But I am since many have helped me out here on this board, and in turn I have tried to go out of my way for others in order to help them out w/their Marauders as well. ;)

[Krytin]

I have worked for several years as a tech training superintendent for the NYC Transit Authority. We have over 4000 vehicles and I've worked on all applications, worked with many engineers - specifically on exhaust system design and performance issues - on diesel, CNG and Hybrid. I am involved in ongoing performance issues, failures, and design upgrades. Without going into detail, let me say that the example you give is not relevant!!!

Mitch
It was relevant when we were burning up exhaust valves every 1500 hours due to increased back pressure and exhaust temp over 1100 degrees!

[Krytin]

Todd, good post. Jose and SixAppeal, thanks for the info. James, LMAO. Krytin, good point (you know, you're OK for a John Kerry kind of guy :D ). Guys, I think so far we've managed to have a civil post!
You're quite welcome. It's always nice to - John Kerry!! Why-I-oughta...
That was a good one - LMOA!
The sad thing for me is that the way things are going w/current admin., I might actually become one (did I really say that!)!!

[MICA Racing]

LMAO - I like W., and will probably vote for him again in November. But there have been a few things I wish would have been done differently. But the saddest thing of all is I haven't seen anyone come out and say "Here's what's wrong and what I'll do to fix it." Both sides (well, three if you count Nader) are too busy pointing fingers and placing blame to just buckle down and do something!

And Mitch, I hope all my comments were taken in the spirit of good debate. I do agree that turbocharging is a great way to make power, and properly designed, can be superior to supercharging. My original point was that the S/C's are readily available, andf the cost of designing a proper turbo system would be cost-prohibitive. But if you have the background, knowledge, and cash on hand to undertake such a project, then have at it! I know the MM's engine compartment does not led itself well to turbocharging (at least without a major redesign), but I don't know much about the T-bird bay for those years, but if it can be done, then all of us as car guys (and gals) will want to see how it went. And the comment about lag was about the inevitable time it will take to spin the impeller, be it with gas or heat (I did know that some of the energy was from heat, but not that much) vs. being connected to a belt. Turbocharging is more efficient than supercharging, but like Billy said, 400 rwhp is 400 rwhp. I agree that turbocharging is more efficient, but my point was the one that Billy ended up making so well, which is that with the abundance of well-designed S/C kits out there and the lack of reliable, well-designed turbo kits out there, the S/C is currently, in the case of the MM, the way to go.

So can we all still be friends? :D

[THE_INTERCEPTOR]

As far as Turbo lag, isn't that why a lot of turbo guys torque brake and get that turbo spooled up before launch??

And he's right about some of those Mustang guys...a lot of them are running turbos, and they are fast as hell! Guy around here running a mustang with a 632 Cubic inch with a nasty ol' Turbo...this dude is running 4.20's in the 1/8 mile!!! Goes by the name of "Cookie Monster."

[BillyGman]

I think it really depends on the application, and your budget.You're talking about a Mustang that's obviously a trailered track car. If you have a street car, then you're not going to want a 4,000 RPM stall speed. And w/my car using a 3,000 RPM stall speed, I can't rev it anymore than 2,000-2,200 RPM while brake torquing it w/out the tires breaking loose. And w/atleast some turbo systems, I don't think that's even a high enough rev to get past the Lag.

[THE_INTERCEPTOR]

I think it really depends on the application, and your budget.You're talking about a Mustang that's obviously a trailered track car. If you have a street car, then you're not going to want a 4,000 RPM stall speed. And w/my car using a 3,000 RPM stall speed, I can't rev it anymore than 2,000-2,200 RPM while brake torquing it w/out the tires breaking loose. And w/atleast some turbo systems, I don't think that's even a high enough rev to get past the Lag.

Good point, BillyG, and you're right. It's all about what it's purpose is. Street car is one thing, a trailered drag monster is another:coolman:

I wish I had a traction problem like you do. :(

[BillyGman]

Wel w/back to back 60' times at the track of 1.6 seconds, my traction problem isn't all that bad w/the drag radials. Atleast not at the track anyway. But either way it is a lotta fun. :)

[THE_INTERCEPTOR]

I can only imagine, Billy. All I can do now is dream about owning a blown Panther.

Keep doing what you're doing at the track, which is putting Panthers on the map!! :up: :) :beer:

[BillyGman]

Thanks for the kind words. But just remember, at one time I had ruled out buying a S/Cer, but then when I realized how nice of a modification it is, I found a way. I guess for a lot of us, it's just a matter of how much of a sacrifice we want to make in order to have a 12 second car. As for me, I was willing to make some sacrifices to obtain that. To some people, it isn't worth it. And ofcourse for some people on here, I'm sure that the cost of even the most extensive mods for their car is simply a drop in the bucket.


But whatever your situation is, I believe that this is the board to be on for what ever level of modification you decide on for your Marauder. ;)