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View Full Version : anybody bigger than 4:56??



Bradley G
08-14-2004, 10:58 AM
who's runn'in anything taller than BillyGman 's gear ratio ?? Is 5:10 the only choice above his ?

RoyLPita
08-14-2004, 11:24 AM
4.88's are also available.

Just my .02 and then some.

FiveO
08-14-2004, 11:34 AM
Billy's getting like 12-13mpg with the 4.56's....

5.10's would be below 10 I'm sure.

Bradley G
08-14-2004, 11:38 AM
Billy's getting like 12-13mpg with the 4.56's....

5.10's would be below 10 I'm sure.Ya but he's gettin his Money's worth;)

BillyGman
08-14-2004, 01:29 PM
There's 4.88's and then 5.13's too. And yes, I'm getting 14 MPG around town, and 16.5-17MPG on the highway. My guess is that even w/4.88's you would take such a big hit in the last half of the quartermile, that it would actually yield a slower trap ET than 4.56's do. Furthermore as it's already been pointed out, on the street you'll likely be getting only 10 MPG around town, which might very well take your car off the street as far as being a daily driver anyway.


Also keep in mind that when you choose anything more extreme than the 4.30's, you MUST also purchase the special cross shaft pin which Richmond gear offers. Last time I looked, Ford Racing doesn't even inform their customers of the need for a special cross shaft pin in their catalog. I really didn't appreciate that, since I got the new 4.56 gear set installed in the rear, and when I went to slide the axles back in, I couldn't remove the stock pin!!!! The 4.56, 4.88, & 5.13 ratio gear sets for the Ford 8.8 rear, all have a thicker ring gear which makes it impossible to remove the stock cross shaft pin.

So I get almost completely finished w/the entire gear swap, and I find that I then had to remove the ring gear and differential from the housing all over again, so that I then could press off the ring gear from the differential carrier, just to remove the stock pin. I also had to special order the Richmond modified cross shaft pin, so that I can complete the job. And keep in mind that I did this last gear swap w/out the use of a lift. I had the car up on jackstands, and was working on my back!!! Try and put about 175 FT/LBS of torque on the pinion nut while you're on your back. It's challenging to say the least. Especially when that pinion nut requires about that same 175 FT/LBS of torque just to move it for the last two full turns, and you have to do it using a 4 foot long iron pipe on the end of your ratchet in order to move it while you're on your back. My point is that this was a big job, and I didn't need for it to become any bigger than it had to be, simply because Ford racing doesn't care about theor customers.

It's bad enough that Ford Racing doesn't even offer the special cross shaft pin to their customers, and that their customers have to go to one of their competitors for this special pin (namely Richmond gear) in order to complete the gear set installation. But what's even worse is that Ford Racing doesn't even care enough about their customers to inform them of the need for a special pin when installing their 4.56, 4.88, & 5.13 ratio gear sets. I even called their catalog department to request that they atleast put an asterisk w/a footnote in their catalog about this so that other people don't have to go through the hassle that I did, but they were totally unconcerned about it. The guy had the nerve to say to me that I could've ground down all the heels of the teeth of the ring gear before I pressed it on the differential carrier in order to get the stock pin past it!!! I then told him that it's utterly rediculous for him, or Ford Racing to expect their customers to have to machine or alter every tooth on the Ring Gear after just spending $200 for their product, and that it's negligent of Ford Racing to shrug this off, and to not even bother mentioning the need for this in their catalog.

Sorry for this post being so lengthy, but I don't want anyone here to have to go through the hassle that I did, should they decide on the 4.56 ratio. Just order the Richmong special cross shaft pin ahead of time before the gear set installation is performed. I bought it for $34 at Summitracing which BTW is the same place I bought the Ford Racing gear set. The Summit Racing people who took my order for the Ring & Pinion gear set didn't even know about the need for this special pin, since Their Ford racing catalog does NOT list a need for it!! Obviously the boneheads of Ford Racing who are in charge of the actual content of their catalog haven't ever been under a car to perform a gear set swap. Such complacency and disregard for their customers gets me ticked off!!!

Captain Steve
08-14-2004, 01:39 PM
.... nevermind, Billy just covered the question I asked up, down, and sideways :lol:

BillyGman
08-14-2004, 01:49 PM
Just a little side note:


With 5.13's you would be at exactly 6156 RPM in third gear at 100 MPH which is a common trap speed among our cars in their modified state. And w/the 4.88 ratio you'll be reving at 5850 RPM at 100 MPH. But keep in mind that at, or close to redline, the torque curve of the engine is already waaaaaay down.

Captain Steve
08-14-2004, 02:12 PM
Hey Billy, would it be worth it to leave the overdrive on with such tall gears?

I'm just daydreaming, since I'm probably going to go with 4.10s, but playing "Fantasy Modification" wouldn't the O/D band be practicle with 5+ gears?

Mad4Macs
08-14-2004, 02:25 PM
... after snipping out the Old Testament, Billy spoke thusly;

...Obviously the boneheads of Ford Racing...

So Billy, tell us how you really feel about that pin :P

BillyGman
08-14-2004, 02:31 PM
... after snipping out the Old Testament, Billy spoke thusly;


So Billy, tell us how you really feel about that pin :PLOL....yeah, I know. I just don't want to see anyone have to perform a major part of the job twice on the same car, and in the same week like I did. It's a big enough job as it is when you're performing it by yourself w/out the extra hassle and aggrivation. :burnout:

BillyGman
08-14-2004, 02:45 PM
Hey Billy, would it be worth it to leave the overdrive on with such tall gears?

I'm just daydreaming, since I'm probably going to go with 4.10s, but playing "Fantasy Modification" wouldn't the O/D band be practicle with 5+ gears?It's a trade-off. I've raced my car w/the O/D left on since I've installed the 4.56's, and I believe it's helped my ET's, however, the major concensus on that is, it's supposed to be bad for the O/D band if it shifts into O/D during full throttle. I cannot argue w/that theory since the Marauder is the only Hi-perf car that I've had which has an O/D transmission. But even if you were to use the O/D on the track w/the 5.13 gears, your ET's would still be slower than they would've been w/4.56's. And I think that your ET's would also be worse w/the 4.88's. I believe that for Marauders, the 4.56's are the ultimate for the track, while the 4.10's are the best compromise for the street. But you cannot have both, so you have to decide which trade-off is the best for you.

All of this depends on what you want to do w/the car, how you drive it, and which things are the most important to you. There's gas economy vs. excellent acceleration off the line. You can't have it all, so you have to decide for yourself where the compromise will be. Another thing about having an N/A marauder w/the 4.56 gears, is that you can smoke the tires from a dead punch (I mean w/out using the brake pedal) especially if you also have the Stallion Torque converter w/the stall speed set at 3,000 RPM's. And in the summer time my car could NOT do that when I had the 4.10 gears.

Ofcourse that applies to an N/A Marauder since I performed those mods before I installed the Trilogy S/Cer kit. Ofcourse w/the S/Cer, you don't need anything more than the stock 3.55 gears simply to smoke-up the tires from a dead punch.

I'm hoping to avoid any problems w/that O/D band being beat-up, since I only take my car to the track twice per year. So it isn't like the O/D band is getting hammered every week. I guess time will tell, but either way, when you're putting 400 HP to the wheels like I am w/my car,you always need to be prepared to have to spend $$ on the drivetrain anyway. I'm not implying that a drivetrain failure is by any means inevitable. I'm simply saying that it's quite possible. Especially over the longhaul.

But the O/D band might be a reason to consider going w/the 4.10's,since you definately won't need O/D for the quartermile if you have 4.10's, unless you'll only be taking your car once per year to the track, and having rocketship type launches from 0-60 MPH when a traffic light turns green on the street is your priority. Because I can assure you that having 4.56's in a Marauder, gives you a better initial 1/8 mile ET, as well as a better 330' time, and 60' time than the Marauders w/4.10's turn (assuming ofcourse that they aren't putting 100 more HP to the wheels than you are).

Whatever you do, don't listen to any of those self-proclaimed "experts" who will try to tell you that 4.10 gears are too extreme for the street, because they don't have a clue as to what they're talking about. If your car doesn't have an O/D transmission, then yes, 4.10's are pretty extreme, and I wouldn't recommend them either. But since the Marauder has both an O/D transmission as well as 18 wheels, and a tire height of 28", I can assure you that installing a 4.10 ratio ring & Pinion gear set in these cars will NOT effect driveability in a negative way at all even on the highway unless you like cruising at 140 MPH, and in that case you have a death wish anyway, and your main concern shouldn't be driveabilty.

If anyone tries to tell you that 4.10 gears in a Marauder would be too extreme, then find out if he's ever had a Marauder. I garantee you that he has NOT had one w/4.10 gears installed. I don't believe there's been anyone at all ever, who has had 4.10's in a Marauder, who has seaid that he or she didn't like them, or that 4.10's are too extreme for a Marauder. I'm one of those who HAS had 4.10's in my Marauder (and infact, they weren't enough for me).

FiveO
08-14-2004, 03:57 PM
.... nevermind, Billy just covered the question I asked up, down, and sideways :lol:


He's good for that....and I mean that in the nicest way possible :D

Sounds like 4.56's are the tallest anyone would want to go.

I'm going to see how things are with my current 4.10's after the Trilogy is installed. If I'm not happy with them I may move up to 4.30's....not sure I'll move to the 4.56's.

BillyGman
08-14-2004, 04:45 PM
Oh, I'm sure you'll be more than happy w/the 4.10's along w/the Trilogy S/cer set-up. Please keep in mind that when I had decided to go w/the 4.56's, I had no intention of ever S/Cing my car, and w/out a S/cer, the 4.10's just weren't enough for me. Had I installed the S/cer while I still had the 4.10 gears, I'm quite sure that I would'bve been satisfied. And IMO going from 4.10's to 4.30's isn't even worth the $$. If you already have the 4.10 gears, then forget the 4.30's. You won't notice any difference between the two. I mean you're only talking about a 150 RPM difference at 70 MPH.

FiveO
08-14-2004, 04:53 PM
4.10's it is then Billy...thanks :)

RF Overlord
08-14-2004, 05:21 PM
But since the Marauder has both an O/D transmission as well as 18 wheels, [/b]

Damn, Billy...does having 18 wheels cause any handling issues?...I have my hands full with just 4 wheels...

:lol:

David Morton
08-14-2004, 07:32 PM
I'm coming up on 5000 mi and am already getting worried about tire life. I am saving my money for my baseline modification, namely the Trilogy, and I have to be realistic about being a speed demon from time to time so a 160+ mph driveshaft and loop has got to be second. Brakes are already not enough (I just might put them to the front of the list, I've already got that much saved up) so they are definitely third. I guess widened rims and some better meat on the back is gonna be fourth so I'll just have to run through a couple of sets of rears until then.

Gears will be fifth at least, if on the list at all, and me being an old fart I can't help but be thinking, "Number nine, number nine, number nine." as in building up a Ford 9" to fit with whatever gears I decide to go with at that time. That'll end any talk about durability with the axle that is in the car now.

I remember my high-school friend Mark "Durock's" '68 Fairlane GTX that had a 428 Super Cobra Jet police interceptor engine, Toploader close ratio 4 speed and 9" axle with 3.25 gears. He had serious traction problems but still outran Billy Johnson's 340 "shorty" Duster that was running an automatic and, he said 4.88's. I was there and Mark pulled him off the line and I'm sure could eat him for lunch as well on the top end cause he walked around me on my 750 Kawasaki when I had my face buried into the speedometer, which was buried as well, and it read past the 135 top mark. I must have been doing 145 at least and he went around me a good ten mph faster.

Almost blew me off the road. :lol:

Captain Steve
08-14-2004, 07:35 PM
Damn, Billy...does having 18 wheels cause any handling issues?...I have my hands full with just 4 wheels...

:lol:
Even If Billy did have 18 wheels, I'm betting he'd find a way to make 16 of 'em smoke up:uzi: :banana2:

BillyGman
08-14-2004, 10:55 PM
Touche RF....that's a good one.....yes, I forgot to include the " sign. :D

Tinaree
07-24-2005, 09:27 AM
I would think a 4.56 with 28" slicks would be a no-brainer for a bracket bandit in a stockish merc.

About that pin,

The 28 spline and 31 spline carriers use different diameters. Keep that in mind when you order (31 is 7/8" IIRC). I will have to do some digging. FMS used to offer a special crosspin for the 31 spline carrier and I know that Ford has it, because it is (was?) used on the F250 tow package with 4.30s.

Your other options, milage may vary:

Shave one tooth on the ring gear for clearance (not all the way around). A machine shop can do this better than you can with a hand grinder. If done carefully you shouldn't get any extra noise.

or
Shave the side of the pin. A big no-no in my book, but it is done all the time.

or
Stick with the size limit of the differential. 28 splines will take 4.30s with no mods, 31 splines will take 4.10s. There are hardened 28 spline Moser axles that will generally outlast the differential.

or
Change to a different carrier. A 31 spline C-locker will take 4.56s easily. Just about anything with a torsen style case will. I think a true-track will handle one size bigger than a stock Ford unit.

Bradley G
07-24-2005, 10:17 AM
Wow you dug a oldie out of the Archives!

Tinaree
07-24-2005, 10:59 AM
See, some people do use the search function ;)

I came across this so I thought I would throw in something that might help anyone wrenching.

BruteForce
07-24-2005, 12:57 PM
A moldy but a goodie. :D

BillyGman
07-24-2005, 11:48 PM
The need for a special cross shaft pin has nothing to do with the number of splines on the axles, nor in the differentials. It has to do with what ring and pinion gear ratio you choose. With the Ford 8.8 rear ends (like we have) you can go as extreme with the ratio as 4.30. beginning with the 4.56 gears, you'll need a special cross shaft pin. (I can explain why if anyone wants to know, but otherwise, i don't feel like typing it all out).


last time I checked, not only does Ford racing negelct to offer a special cross shaft pin for the 4.56, 4.88, & 5.13 gear ratios, but they don't even inform their customers in the catalogue that they will need a special pin for using those gear ratios in the Ford 8.8 rear!!!! But they're competitor, Richmond gear does make a special pin, and it costs $34 from Summit Racing. if anyone wants the part # then just write to me. I had to buy that special pin, and I'd much rather use it, then have to get the teeth on the ring gear ground down.

Wires
07-25-2005, 04:48 AM
As a newer member, it helps to read these old threads.

Just one question:

I read people talking about going "taller" than 4:56.

I always thought that generally we speak of LOW gears, like 1 or 2 as being higher RPM for a given speed, or lower speed per RPM.

As gearing goes HIGHER, RPM goes DOWN, or SPEED goes up.

Confusingly, our rear axle ratios are given such that HIGHER numbers are LOWER gears. So, 3.55 is higher than 4.10, which is higher than 4:30 - as one goes from 3.55 to 4.56, RPM for a given speed goes up, speed goes down.

Now, I've always heard that "TALL" gears were high gears - that is, 2.73 is too tall for racing, and many consider 3.55 too tall for the street. Think of a tall person (long legs) and a short person (short legs) walking together. The shorter person must make more steps than the tall person to go the same speed, or, if they both step at the same speed, the tall person will be going faster.


If this is correct, then we aren't going "taller" than 4.10 with the 4.56s, we are going "shorter" a word that I've never heard used to describe gears at all.

Just wondering.

Tinaree
07-25-2005, 06:13 AM
The need for a special cross shaft pin has nothing to do with the number of splines on the axles, nor in the differentials. Yes, it does.

The 31 spline carrier is larger than the 28 spline. Both use different size pins as well. The larger carrier will only handle a certain thickness of ring gear (4.10) before clearance is an issue. The smaller 28 spline unit will go to 4.30s. Rings and pinions are interchangeable.

The special pin is used on trucks with the 4.30 tow package in a 31 spline carrier. They have probably switched to the 9.3" carrier now, though.

They never did make one for the dinky little 28 spline carrier, if that is what you are running. I can't blame them either. I have twisted the 31 spline in half with slicks, I don't think I would keep it if I were going into the pumkin. But then there is cost, so everybody has to stretch what they can.

BillyGman
07-25-2005, 09:51 AM
Yes, it does.

The 31 spline carrier is larger than the 28 spline. Both use different size pins as well. The larger carrier will only handle a certain thickness of ring gear (4.10) before clearance is an issue. The smaller 28 spline unit will go to 4.30s. Rings and pinions are interchangeable.

The special pin is used on trucks with the 4.30 tow package in a 31 spline carrier. They have probably switched to the 9.3" carrier now, though.

They never did make one for the dinky little 28 spline carrier, if that is what you are running. I can't blame them either. I have twisted the 31 spline in half with slicks, I don't think I would keep it if I were going into the pumkin. But then there is cost, so everybody has to stretch what they can.Okay...got it. Thanks for the correction. I have the 28 splines, and after 20,000 hard supercharged miles(31,000 total), I haven't had any problems yet. But I would never use slicks at the dragstrip with my daily driven car, because guys I've spoken with who also have heavy cars who have used slicks, have told me that as soon as they did, they began breaking things like teeth on the ring & pinion gears, as well as U-joints.

The drag radials work well enough for me, because I'm running consistent 1.6 second 60' times with this 4,200 LB tank. And I believe that the drag radials are a little easier on the drivetrain parts during the launch. So in light of that, I think that Ford should offer the special cross shaft pin. If Richmond does, then why not Ford? Why should I have to go to one of Ford's competitors for that special pin in order to complete a ring and pinion gear swap when using FORD gears? That just doesn't make any sense.

Furthermore, it even makes less sense that Ford offers ring & pionion gear sets for their 8.8 rear end in the ratios of 4.56, 4.88, and 5.13 while at the same time totally neglects to tell their customers that they will not be able to use the stock cross shaft pins. Richmond informs their customers of that. But because I chose Ford gears, I had to find that out the hard way once I had the job almoist completey finished (while working on my back I might add), by having to remove the differential from the housing, and press off the ring gear all over again, just so that I can remove the stock pin. It isn't fun having to do a job twice, just because you were misinformed by Ford Racing. Talk about a company not giving a rip about thier customers.:shake:

Tinaree
07-25-2005, 10:45 AM
I feel your pain. I think Ford Racing is more or less window dressing these days.

kingsford
07-27-2005, 08:59 PM
Damn, Billy...does having 18 wheels cause any handling issues?...I have my hands full with just 4 wheels...

:lol:



:lol: :lol: that just made my day