300 HP on a Budget.

[Smokie]

I need some suggestions on whether it is possible to achieve this goal. At least 300 hp--300 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels. Blower is not possible right now, I don't like nitrous.

I want to achieve this goal by increasing the power output of the engine, not by reducing the parasitic drag on the engine. I am also not interested in the various power line components that reduce ET's.

This is where I am at today: 265 hp/289 torque. Stock car with generic flash. I am on a very limited budget so I have to squeeze maximum power out of every dollar spent.

Is this possible ? or maybe I'm just dreaming. All helpful suggestions will be greatly appreciated.

[RF Overlord]

I want to achieve this goal by increasing the power output of the engine, not by reducing the parasitic drag on the engine.
Smokie: Why don't you want to gain performance by reducing parasitic drag? Power is power, whether you increase the total output, or increase the USABLE output by reducing drag, it's all good...most other things that will add a bunch of power are either relatively expensive to buy, or time-consuming to install...

Underdrive pulleys are a relatively economical way to free up a few horses...I hear good things about Paul's intake spacer as well...I think that's The Blackbird's next mod...
I am also not interested in the various power line components that reduce ET's.
I don't quite know what you mean here...do you mean things like the PI torque converter?

[Smokie]

RF, I want to increase the power the engines makes, the parasitic power adders have draw backs that I prefer to avoid, power line components ie: converter, gears do not add power and are not cheap. I am 33 hp and 11 ft/lbs away from the minimum where I would like to be.

I would prefer to increase power output without giving up something in return, maybe I don't make a lot sense:confused: but it makes sense to me.:D

[Zack]

Blower is not possible right now, I don't like nitrous.


Buy a blower

[Smokie]

All helpful suggestions will be greatly appreciated..................

[Paul T. Casey]

Smokie, horsepower ain't cheap. That said, here's the cheapest way I can come up with. You have the re-flash already, if you haven't done the plugs and t-stat, do them. This is probably worth 2 -8 hp. Next, get a K&N or an Air Hog or some other equivalent better breathing air filter. They say this is worth 2 - 15 hp, depending upon application. I was a doubter myself, but I finally put the K&N on last weekend, and I can notice a difference. Another relatively cheap improvement would be a less restrictive exhaust muffler. If you're handy, you could probably also "re-pipe" the whole system from the cats on back. Our pipes are quite small, and hp could be gained there. Lastly, you should get over your "parasitic" phobia (no ill intended). There's another 3 to 10 rwhp just waiting in those pullies on your car. I have the underdrives, and honestly the only difference I notice is at a stop at night with the lights on I get a slightly lower reading on the alt. gague. It comes right back to normal as soon as the brake is off (while in gear). I haven't seen a difference in the a/c, steering or anything else. These are the least expensive things I could come up with.

[SouLRioT]

Smokie, you know more about cars and have been on this site longer than me, but the only thing that fits the part of increasing the power output of the engine is a S/C. But then its not in the price range your looking at. If your looking at putting you over the 300 mark, an exhust would be the thing to do it. Your looking at on the high end with install $2,000 total, self install about $1,400. But then again this isnt a power adder.

[Captain Steve]

You could run exclusively on 100octane race/street fuel and have somebody tweak the tune on your engine.. you already have the tuner, so you'd just have to be buying slightly more expensive gas ;)

[TAF]

Javier...check your PMs. :up:

[bigslim]

Check with Barry (Cruztaker). He is running over 300hp from his car. I have witness his runs at the track and it runs damn good. Constant mid 13's without a blower.

[MERCMAN]

Javier, try the colder plugs, stat, UD pulleys, then save up for headers, you saw my pull at Indy, with those mods(including flow masters) I am at 294 HP 302 tq. All I need to put me "over the top" is an electric water pump and I am not sure I am going to go that route! :UP:

[SergntMac]

I need some suggestions on whether it is possible to achieve this goal. At least 300 hp--300 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels. Blower is not possible right now, I don't like nitrous. I want to achieve this goal by increasing the power output of the engine, not by reducing the parasitic drag on the engine. I am also not interested in the various power line components that reduce ET's.
Sticking to the parameters you set here, Javier, I do not believe it's possible without serious (and major) changes to the engine. Your heading says "on a budget," and with consideration for that, a supercharger is less expensive, and produces more "bang for the buck" than rebuilding the engine to produce more "natural" power.

You also mention "parasitic drag" in that sentence and I agree, any supercharger will use some natural power to drive itself. However, as long as the supercharger produces enough power of it's own, it's worth it, and perhaps the only way to go, bang for the buck-wise.

Imagine yourself wanting to row a small boat across a lake. With only you in the boat, and armed with only two oars of standard size. Let's call this "one boat power," and you will complete your journey in one hour. The boat is light, and the water still. However, you wish to make the journey in under half an hour. What are your options? Larger oars? Perhaps so large you cannot manage them, or, keep them pulling through the water as much as you can smaller, more manageable oars?

But, if you add some "parasitic drag," with a small outboard motor producing 5 HP, you may reach your goal. The motor adds 50 pounds to your load, and it's drive line drags in the water too, and this is not good if you are still rowing. But, once you start the motor and let it's 5 HP add to your 1 "boat power," you will complete your journey across the lake in half an hour, and without any pyhsical exertion on your behalf. Ummm...Like Zack said, get a blower.

Cruztaker's (and others) accomplishments are remarkable, but do not really fit within the scenario Javier puts forth. Those "ET lowering" and "drag removing" add-ons, like UD pulleys, are likewise responsible for the production of HP and TQ on a dyno. Everything works together to get the natural power of the 4.6 DOHC to the wheels, and they cannot be discounted here.

Again, staying within the parameters of the question, the goal will not be achieved without rebuilding the engine, and to such a degree to move 300 HP/300TQ through the drive line without any other mods assisting, you would have to shoot for a natural 400HP and 400TQ, and that's without any respect for bang for the bucks. It's just not cost effective, and maybe not possible, on a 281 CID DOHC engine....IMHO.

Just my .02c

[Smokie]

Thank you for the good suggestions, I know that the parameters that I have set may seem silly or bizarre to many out there, but I have very carefully over 2 years have studied the effects of U/D pullies based on the comments made by those that have them: there are drawbacks I don't want, the electric water pump works as advertise but since I make a living in a field where I work with electric motors I know that a motor is like a light bulb; one second there is light, the next second no light.

Gears give you better launch, they take away top end and mpg. High stall converter improves launch but requires fine tuning to avoid unwanted driving characteristics during normal everyday driving.

I obviously don't have the budget to do what I want the way it should be done (blower) Paul you are correct about the K&N filter it does help, I use the paper for everyday driving and drop in a K&N at the track (I think it helps:) )

I am not trying to build the fastest car or a race car for that matter. I want it to be a fine automobile with enough power to surprise the overconfident.

I am 33 horses and 11 ft/lbs from what I believe to be a modest goal. Notice my goal is not ET based. I think it is possible to find the power somewhere in the intake/exhaust/dyno-tune area. I may be mistaken or the power I seek not within my budget.... but I guess I will find out.;)

[Bradley G]

Thank you for the good suggestions, I know that the parameters that I have set may seem silly or bizarre to many out there, but I have very carefully over 2 years have studied the effects of U/D pullies based on the comments made by those that have them: there are drawbacks I don't want, the electric water pump works as advertise but since I make a living in a field where I work with electric motors I know that a motor is like a light bulb; one second there is light, the next second no light.

Gears give you better launch, they take away top end and mpg. High stall converter improves launch but requires fine tuning to avoid unwanted driving characteristics during normal everyday driving.

I obviously don't have the budget to do what I want the way it should be done (blower) Paul you are correct about the K&N filter it does help, I use the paper for everyday driving and drop in a K&N at the track (I think it helps:) )

I am not trying to build the fastest car or a race car for that matter. I want it to be a fine automobile with enough power to surprise the overconfident.

I am 33 horses and 11 ft/lbs from what I believe to be a modest goal. Notice my goal is not ET based. I think it is possible to find the power somewhere in the intake/exhaust/dyno-tune area. I may be mistaken or the power I seek not within my budget.... but I guess I will find out.;)You never shared what you alotted for your mods $$ wise. If 2-3k is in your idea range ,sounds like it should be no problem.Sounds like you have a plan;)

[cyclone03]

Just check my sig,Smokie.
294hp and 299ft/lbs on the dyno in Indy.With the spacer you won and my mods you'll have 300 to the wheels.
Below $3000,closer to $2000 without the converter.
Take note I'm running stock gears so highway mileage runs 23-25 @70-75mph.


OK reread your post,Your tune numbers are very close to where I was,so your only option is add the KOOKS system.Retune the CPU and see what you got,Believe it or not the only down side I had with the underdrives was fixed with the tune,idle raised to about 900,there done.
You could also go with DR's exhaust system but I don't know the numbers.
With the Kooks no matter what anybody says you do lose below 3000rpm torque but the magic 300 is there on top.DR's system MAY leave you 5 or so HP short but my GUESS is you will not lose the lowend.
But 300/300 is possible.
A year and a half ago this would be a reach,put the parts and tune is out there today.

[CRUZTAKER]

Mr. X....tough question you have thrown there....

The only mod that comes close to your criteria isn't gonna be cheap. That would be a complete KOOKS setup to the tune of nearly $1700 installed if you catch a christmas sale.;)

Good luck man...cause if you find a cheap way to squeeze out 33 hp...I WANNA KNOW TOO!

[Smokie]

Barry I agree, the extra 33 horses are not going to be easy and I wish that I felt more comfortable with some of the mods that haven proven very popular and succesfull with many of our members.

I plan to explore the possibilities in the direction of intake/exhaust and perhaps others that at this time escape me. It will not be magic, and it cannot be very expensive, my ultimate goal is to improve the car with money that later will compliment the blower so no money is wasted.

As you all know I been to the track a few times, Indy was great fun, but to see my car run the slowest times ever was not fun.

I have been offered some help and will explore some possibilities, if I can accomplish something worthwile I will as always share the facts, if I fall flat on my face....you will also know about it.:dunno:

[SergntMac]

Barry I agree, the extra 33 horses are not going to be easy and I wish that I felt more comfortable with some of the mods that haven proven very popular and succesfull with many of our members. I plan to explore the possibilities in the direction of intake/exhaust and perhaps others that at this time escape me. It will not be magic, and it cannot be very expensive, my ultimate goal is to improve the car with money that later will compliment the blower so no money is wasted.
Exhaust is a no-brainer, Javier, I think you know this. If you cannot afford the full Kook's system, the full Reinhart Cobra kit will perform as well and I think you know this too. However, you have clarified your question from your first post, and I feel a sharper focus here I did not feel earlier today. Here's something to chew on...Cams.

Hasn't been a lot of discussion here about changing out cams, intake cams, exhaust cams, or, both. I know there is expertise out here too, the 4.6 DOHC has been around for almost 10 years, and even FMC is a resource on grinds, due to the variety of platforms our base engine has been re-tooled for.

I have no real data or 411 to pass along here, but IMHO improving cams improves breathing, and develops more low end torque. Since an engine is nothing more that a self-powered air pump, I think it's worth a look-see for more 411, but who can you call?

If I were you, I'd start with Dennis and Lidio, both have been building 4.6 engines for years. Last time I spoke with Tom at VT, he had a hand full of cool and aggressive grinds on hand, but we haven't talked in a while. Cams may not be that expensive to mod on our DOHC configuration, and surely, there will be a return on investment when (if) you ever do more. We just haven't spent any time investigating it. Must have been that "warranty" thingy holding us back. But, now that many of us are past that, and still eager to build power naturally, think cams...

As you all know I been to the track a few times, Indy was great fun, but to see my car run the slowest times ever was not fun.
I've seen a few timeslips from Indy too, and I agree. My car was a remarkable disappointment for me, running 13.3x all day long. But, this is how it goes when you level the playing field. "Slower" could have been faster, but it wasn't to be that day.

Everyone reporting back ran slower than otherwise recorded, or, stated here. It was good to see the playing field paved flat and recording times equally on that pavement. Everyone dragging at Indy ran about .5 seconds slower that their previous experience, but they still ran as strong as they could in the conditions of the day.

It's good to see this every once in a while, and you can do this only when playing onj the level field somewhere, where you can deliver your best. A closed track, where you can really "test and tune," rather than give, or, get a break from one or two fast, or, slow runs. Consistency is what counts. Replication...Habit. Not the unusual and sometimes lucky break. The numbers we see from Indy may be different from our home ground, but the difference between the numbers found at Indy, is not.

There's another level playing field ahead for us at Norwalk, mid September, y'all look it up?

[jstevens]

I agree, its hard to build horsepower on a budget, but I must disagree with the gears comment. I believe with 4.10's, my mileage will suffer only a little, while the launch should improve. Also, I'll be running I think around 3000 rpm's at 90mph which I don't plan on doing for any extended times.

My plan to increase the punch is SCT tuner and 4.10 gears from Lidio. Throw in a K & N air box.

[Paul T. Casey]

Another idea came to me from a buddy. Plunk down the 19 bucks for Sean Hylands Motorsport Modular Manual. I'm going to pick one up myself. I figure it can't hurt.http://www.seanhylandmotorsports.com/

[Smokie]

Sarge, we are on the same page, I didn't mean to be vague on purpose, I also did not want to give the impression there is anything wrong with increasing power by reducing drag on the engine, I just want to explore a slightly different direction and the facts are that I have no choice but to be frugal, I could have chosen to make the car faster by using the money spent on Indy in the car....but not a chance !!! My wife and I wanted to be there, it was worth it.

I actually have very definite ideas on how I want my car to look, sound, run, handle and stop. My goals are modest but they are not cheap. I do appreciate the input.

[SergntMac]

Sarge, we are on the same page, I didn't mean to be vague on purpose. I actually have very definite ideas on how I want my car to look, sound, run, handle and stop. My goals are modest but they are not cheap. I do appreciate the input.
You were not vague, my friend, no problem. I enjoyed the brainstorming too.

But, if you ever pass through Chicago without waving at me again, well...

[Smokie]

But, if you ever pass through Chicago without waving at me again, well...I am sorry about that, I truly wanted to meet you. At Indy I was told that you were out of town.

[FordNut]

Exhaust is a no-brainer, Javier, I think you know this. If you cannot afford the full Kook's system, the full Reinhart Cobra kit will perform as well and I think you know this too. However, you have clarified your question from your first post, and I feel a sharper focus here I did not feel earlier today. Here's something to chew on...Cams.

Hasn't been a lot of discussion here about changing out cams, intake cams, exhaust cams, or, both. I know there is expertise out here too, the 4.6 DOHC has been around for almost 10 years, and even FMC is a resource on grinds, due to the variety of platforms our base engine has been re-tooled for.


I have discussed this option with my tuner. He suggested that I have done virtually everything possible to increase power and stay NA so if I want to add more I should change cams. How much? Ballpark $1500.00. Whew, that's a tough one since we don't have any data on how much power we're going to pick up from the upgrade.

Smokie, what you're asking for is almost impossible. Low buck power adders to make 300 RWHP. I believe both Barry and I did virtually everything possible and spent tons of $ to hit 300. I still don't understand the aversion to electric water pump and underdrive pulleys. I have both, drove over 400 miles to Indy, raced, drove home, drove 200 miles to ATL, drove home, drove 100 miles to Bristol, raced, drove home, drove back 200 miles to ATL in the last 3 weeks. Not to mention the many miles I put on this setup before the trip to Indy. I have no problems, worries, or concerns with this setup.

[Smokie]

I am 33 horses and 11 ft/lbs from what I believe to be a modest goal. Notice my goal is not ET based. I think it is possible to find the power somewhere in the intake/exhaust/dyno-tune area. I may be mistaken or the power I seek not within my budget.... but I guess I will find out.;)
Since writing the above , I added complete exhaust, U/D's and PHP airbox. At the moment I am 10 horses short of original goal and exceeded my torque goals, picked up 23 horses since I started this thread....I may be slow, but I am steady.

[CRUZTAKER]

Smokie, you play your cards right, you'll be on my azz in no time.

I haven't dynoed in a looooong time, but I figure I am well over my 302 posted by now. Once I get the mazzy pump on, I will run the dyno again.

Your next big difference as far as track time is a performance stall converter. This was by far one of the more expensive procedures, but also a major seat of the pants change in performance.

[Smokie]

Smokie, you play your cards right, you'll be on my azz in no time.

I haven't dynoed in a looooong time, but I figure I am well over my 302 posted by now. Once I get the mazzy pump on, I will run the dyno again.

Your next big difference as far as track time is a performance stall converter. This was by far one of the more expensive procedures, but also a major seat of the pants change in performance.Cruz, I don't think I will ever run in your league !!! Some time early next year I hope to run on a day with good air and if I can figure out a way to improve my launch technique; I think I have an outside chance to sneak into the high 13's. I want to do it do hard way, no gears or converter, 100% OEM driveline. I have been told that this is not likely to happen....makes me all the more determined...thanks for your advise on the airbox....well worth it.:D

[Mike Poore]

I need some suggestions on whether it is possible to achieve this goal. At least 300 hp--300 ft/lbs of torque at the rear wheels. Blower is not possible right now, I don't like nitrous.

I want to achieve this goal by increasing the power output of the engine, not by reducing the parasitic drag on the engine. I am also not interested in the various power line components that reduce ET's.

This is where I am at today: 265 hp/289 torque. Stock car with generic flash. I am on a very limited budget so I have to squeeze maximum power out of every dollar spent.

Is this possible ? or maybe I'm just dreaming. All helpful suggestions will be greatly appreciated.
I still havn't gotten an answer about the addition of a Mach I shaker hood scoop assembly. It's got to add a few HP and would look and sound very cool.

[LightningVic]

cluck cluck chickens!!!!!!!!!!! I'm a 2 valve guy, so I have to be a little more pioneering to keep up with you guys, but you guys have ALOT left in your motors before you even run purpose built N/A motors. If I had a marauder, which I will one day, (maybe after law school) I would port and polish my heads, run one of the new comp cams grinds, either 262s or 270s, get an FR500 intake manifold, port the crap out of it, and relocate the battery to the trunk, and the air intake to the mustang side. With the kooks, an electric waterpump, full exhaust, ported and polished heads, cams, the intake, and a dynotune, you could easily see 400 rwhp.

[sailsmen]

I have UD pullies for 30+K miles with no draw backs.