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GreekGod
08-24-2004, 11:54 AM
Black Wheels For '03-'04 Marauder? Looking For 18"x8" Oem Off-set Forged Aluminum Or Steel W/ No Fake Rivets Or Fake Bolt Heads. "d" Hole Stock-car Steel Would Be Nice, But I Don't Think Anyone Makes 18" In Steel. Black 'teflon' Would Be Real Trick!

rumble
08-24-2004, 04:42 PM
http://www.earlywheel.com

You might try these folks, if they don't make em they
can probably tell you who does. They've made several
wheels for me in the past. Great workmanship and
very reasonable

Donny Carlson
08-24-2004, 05:21 PM
Black Wheels For '03-'04 Marauder? Looking For 18"x8" Oem Off-set Forged Aluminum Or Steel W/ No Fake Rivets Or Fake Bolt Heads. "d" Hole Stock-car Steel Would Be Nice, But I Don't Think Anyone Makes 18" In Steel. Black 'teflon' Would Be Real Trick!
This is an 18x9, the back spacing is close.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M-1007-F500B.jpg

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 6727

martyo
08-24-2004, 06:55 PM
This is an 18x9, the back spacing is close.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M-1007-F500B.jpg

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 6727

Donny strikes again!

Joe Walsh
08-24-2004, 07:06 PM
I think that the backspacing on the stock 18 x 8" rim is 6.5"
The backspacing on a 18 x 9" rim should be closer to 7.5"..unless you want to push the rim/tire to the outside of the wheelwell. There is enough room (shock clearance) to push the rim/wheel to the inside of the wheelwell at least 1"

Donny Carlson
08-24-2004, 07:36 PM
I think that the backspacing on the stock 18 x 8" rim is 6.5"
The backspacing on a 18 x 9" rim should be closer to 7.5"..unless you want to push the rim/tire to the outside of the wheelwell. There is enough room (shock clearance) to push the rim/wheel to the inside of the wheelwell at least 1"
According to FRP website, the back spacing for this wheel is 5.98"

Pantherman
08-24-2004, 07:38 PM
Joe, the inside rear clearance is not as generous as it first appears. A lot of that room gets used up when the axle goes into full jounce-roll. One problem with the Ford racing wheel is that at 31 lbs. it seems to be a real porker. Panther platform cars have never liked heavy wheels.

Donny Carlson
08-24-2004, 07:44 PM
Joe, the inside rear clearance is not as generous as it first appears. A lot of that room gets used up when the axle goes into full jounce-roll. One problem with the Ford racing wheel is that at 35 lbs. it seems to be a real porker. Panther platform cars have never liked heavy wheels.
Not to be nit picky, but they weigh 31 pounds. 1 pound lighter than the polished "chrome" version, and 1 pound more than the powdercoated silver version.

TAF
08-24-2004, 07:45 PM
I Love wheel backspacing threads...

right behind bashing Marty threads...

and of course, oil threads...

Donny Carlson
08-24-2004, 07:53 PM
I Love wheel backspacing threads...

right behind bashing Marty threads...

and of course, oil threads...
Yah, we need an Elaine thread about right now.

I am so wanting just to buy a setr of these wheels just to see if they fit. I'll either look like a conplete idiot for wasting $1000 on wheels that don't fit, or they will fit and and I can go "nyah nyah" for at least a week.

TAF
08-24-2004, 07:54 PM
Yah, we need an Elaine thread about right now.

I am so wanting just to buy a setr of these wheels just to see if they fit. I'll either look like a conplete idiot for wasting $1000 on wheels that don't fit, or they will fit and and I can go "nyah nyah" for at least a week.
Scott had these (not in the black though) on his Luxobarge Winning Mark VIII the other day. They are NICE!


Oh yeah.....



Elaine............

martyo
08-25-2004, 03:02 AM
Elaine............

Take a shower would ya? A very, very cold shower.... :shake:

studio460
08-25-2004, 11:44 PM
Donny:

I'm DYING to get those EXACT same wheels myself. But didn't we have a thread on these very wheels a month or two ago? Am I mixing these up with some other wheels where someone posted a picture of Dennis Reinhart's car with these wheels on and they stuck out an inch from the wheel well and looked kinda funny?

Ford Racing website tech notes for this "Black Ford Racing Mustang Wheel," part no. M-1007-F500B:
• Fits 1994-04 [Mustang]
• 5-lug, 4.50'' bolt circle, 5.98'' backspacing
• 18''x 9'' wide
• Includes Ford Racing center cap
• Cast in Ford Racing logo

Also, if the backspacing is off, can't a good wheel shop customize it to fit?

studio460
08-26-2004, 12:05 AM
Okay, here's the old thread that Donny started on these wheels:

Ford Racing Wheel Thread (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10906&page=1&pp=15&highlight=backspace)

Here's what joflewbyu2 said in a post in that thread:
" . . . Our MM rims are 18x8 with a 50 mm offset. This means the mating surface is 50mm from the centerline of the rim. If our wheels are 8" wide, our centerline is at the 4" mark and from there the surface is 50mm. 25.4 mm is equal to 1 inch - so ourwheels are 4" x 25.4 plus 50mm divided by 25.4 = 5.968 Now those wheels are 9" wide so as they sit on a MM, the inside will sit in the same spot but the outside dimension will be 1" further out."

Donny, you posted a photo of a Marauder with those wheels to show how they looked sticking out 1", but it's no longer there (and as I recall, I personally, did think it looked a little funny sticking out like that). Can you post that picture again here, please?

And what about those "negative unspacers" anyway?

Pantherman
08-26-2004, 08:46 AM
See http://www.rsracing.com/tech-wheel.html for a good description of offset/backspacing. All things are relative, but once you get past the physical clearance issues, decreasing offset increases bearing, ball joint, and steering gear loads and makes the car more likely to wander at high speeds. A little change would be insignificant, but one inch is quite a bit.

Donny Carlson
08-26-2004, 06:40 PM
As Todd mentioned, these wheels are on Scott's Mark VIII (well, the polished version), so what I need to do is talk to him AND get some photos.

I think these wheel will fit an MM, but the unanswered question was what their offset was. These are 9" wheels as opposed to our 8", with just shy of 6" backspacing compared to our 6.5" backspacing.

Offset is the difference between the location of the landing pad and the center line of the wheel. What the offset of the FRP wheel is us not known (I guess a phone call needs to be made)

But consider this --

MM wheels are 8" with a 50 mm offset, yes? 50 mm is just shy of 2 inches.
Therefore the landing pad is 2 inches outboard of the centerline, making the backspacing (the distance from the landing pad to the edge of the wheel) 6 inches. (begs the question where the 6.5 inch backspacing quoted is coming from, unless measurement is including the bead).

The FRP wheels are 9", offset unknown, but we do know the backspacing is just shy of 6", which places the landing pad 1.5 inches outboard of centerline (4.5"), making the offset 38mm.

Therefor, from the landing pad, the FRP wheels will extend 6" into the wheel well, or the same as the Marauder wheel.

The question of how much will "stick out" of the well..., well, the Marauder wheel landing pad sits 2 inches outboard of centerline, centerline is at 4 inches. The FRP wheel sits 1.5 inches outboard of centerline, centerline is at 4.5 inches. The difference is 1 inch, as posted before. These wheels will fit, with no difference in the inside clearance, but will extend out 1 inch more than Marauder wheels.

So, the final question - will it look "funny" or look okay. Well, here's the shot of the Marauder Dennis had the 9" wide 18" wheels on, you tell me what you think.
http://www.marauder57.com/Reinhart/RSC%20Full%20Car%20Funnel2.jpg


And one final shot showing a solution that is not as expensive as you would think... adding wheel flares. These are shots on the Gator Customs website showing flares being added. Do this, and any questions about these wheels sticking out become moot.


<CENTER>http://gatorcustoms.net/ipw-web/gallery/albums/album01/Glue_R_quarter.sized.jpg (http://gatorcustoms.net/ipw-web/gallery/album01/Glue_R_quarter?full=1)</CENTER><CENTER>http://gatorcustoms.net/ipw-web/gallery/albums/album01/finished_R_side.sized.jpg (http://gatorcustoms.net/ipw-web/gallery/album01/finished_R_side?full=1)</CENTER>

Petrograde
08-27-2004, 03:42 AM
Fender flares?.... hmm,... I'd have to a Marauder with them to make up my mind. I'm having a hard time visualizing this.....

GreekGod
08-27-2004, 09:51 AM
That wheel web site you recomended was eccellent! Thank you! Yours truly, The GreekGod, AKA The BERSERKER Marauder. The HUMUNGUS Rules, GIVE US THE OIL AND NO ONE GETS HURT!

SergntMac
08-27-2004, 10:54 AM
So, the final question - will it look "funny" or look okay. Well, here's the shot of the Marauder Dennis had the 9" wide 18" wheels on, you tell me what you think.
http://www.marauder57.com/Reinhart/RSC%20Full%20Car%20Funnel2.jpg
I think they look quite different from the wheels I thought were being discussed here, the FR500s. The wheels in this pic were production line options for the '03 Cobra, and came standard on the '04 Cobra. They are 17X8, 5/4.5, but I don't have the offset/backspacing handy. IMHO...I think they look pretty cool, and I considered a set myself at one time, until another idea came through.

BTW, does any know if the Ford Racing center cap will fit the MM wheel?

Donny Carlson
08-27-2004, 11:08 AM
I think they look quite different from the wheels I thought were being discussed here, the FR500s. The wheels in this pic were production line options for the '03 Cobra, and came standard on the '04 Cobra. They are 17X8, 5/4.5, but I don't have the offset/backspacing handy. IMHO...I think they look pretty cool, and I considered a set myself at one time, until another idea came through.

BTW, does any know if the Ford Racing center cap will fit the MM wheel?
Don't know about the cap, though it would be logical if it did.

The Cobra wheel shown on Dennis' car is this -

http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M1007R50C.jpg


• 5-lug, 4.50' bolt circle, 5.98' backspacing
• 17' x 9'


Note that it has the same specs as the FR500 wheel, only it's 17" not 18"

The back spacing is the same, and the offset should be the same, ie 38mm

Same logic; centerline is 4.5 inches, landing pad is 6 inches from the inner wheel edge, placing it 1.5 inches negative offset, or 38mm approx.

merc
08-27-2004, 11:11 AM
[QUOTE=SergntMac] They are 17X8, 5/4.5, but I don't have the offset/backspacing handy. IMHO...I think they look pretty cool, and I considered a set myself at one time, until another idea came through.

Did you say 17x8 ? That my be the front tire size on this picture, but the rears look like ?x9. The Corbra R rim also comes in 18' size, right. :loco:

Donny Carlson
08-27-2004, 11:20 AM
[QUOTE=SergntMac] They are 17X8, 5/4.5, but I don't have the offset/backspacing handy. IMHO...I think they look pretty cool, and I considered a set myself at one time, until another idea came through.

Did you say 17x8 ? That my be the front tire size on this picture, but the rears look like ?x9. The Corbra R rim also comes in 18' size, right. :loco:
The 17's are 9" across, not 8.

The 18" version looks a bit different:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M1007R189C.jpg

SergntMac
08-27-2004, 11:23 AM
Did you say 17x8 ? That my be the front tire size on this picture, but the rears look like ?x9. The Corbra R rim also comes in 18' size, right.
Yes, the 2000 Cobra R wheel is 18X9.5, 6.12" backspace. I can't speculate on what's on the rear from this pic.

merc
08-27-2004, 11:24 AM
I don't know that Donny. Thanks for the quick reply :cool4:

SergntMac
08-27-2004, 11:33 AM
This wheel is available in a variety of sizes, including 17X8, so, anything is possible.

If this pic is going to be used as a representation of what fits and what does not fit, someone should ask Dennis. If these wheels are same wheels he brought to Ennis last year, I'm pretty sure they are 17x8, because that factored in a number of chats about the affect of 17" wheels on rear end gear ratios.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 5089

Donny Carlson
08-27-2004, 11:33 AM
There are more than one versios of the Cobra R Wheel this one:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M1007R54C.jpg

Which of couse is a 4 bolt pattern, is 8" across

This one:

http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M1007C58.jpg

Is described as a "Chrome SVT Cobra R Wheel," whereas the one I posted earlier is described as a "Chrome Ford Racing Cobra R Wheel" The only difference is specs is that this SVT wheel has a 5.95" backspace compared to the FRP wheel's 5.98". The FRP offset is 37.6 mm, the SVT offset is 36.8 mm

Donny Carlson
08-27-2004, 11:38 AM
This wheel is available in a variety of sizes, including 17X8, so, anything is possible.

If this pic is going to be used as a representation of what fits and what does not fit, someone should ask Dennis. If these wheels are same wheels he brought to Ennis last year, I'm pretty sure they are 17x8, because that factored in a number of chats about the affect of 17" wheels on rear end gear ratios.

http://www.fordracingparts.com/parts/part_details.asp?PartKeyField= 5089

Mac, I realise that its easy to get mixed up when looking at the FRP wheel selection, but your link goes to the 4 lug wheel.

Donny Carlson
08-27-2004, 11:40 AM
Bleakley Ford has this one on display in their parts department. I think it's a nice looking wheel and comes in two different finishes. This is a 17" x 9"

http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M1007A179.jpg

http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/part/full/M1007A179M.jpg

This has a 6.12" backspacing, making a 41mm offset.

Pantherman
08-27-2004, 10:03 PM
That's a nice wheel Donny, but interpolating from the conversion chart at http://www.rsracing.com/tech-wheel.html, I think its offset is more like 28 mm. Ford really didn't use 50 mm offset wheels just to frustrate us. It was done to reduce scrub radius to about 10 mm, which helped to give the car very good steering. Scrub radius is defined by drawing a front view line from the upper ball joint down through the lower ball joint to the ground and then measuring out to the centerline of the wheel. When we drop offset from 50mm to 28mm, we roughly triple scrub radius. Steering would not just automatically become awful, but smaller disturbances in the road would disturb tracking. Otherwise acceptable tire imbalance or out of round would suddenly be noticeable. As they say in the car business, your mileage may vary. One last downside before I stop playing Jeremiah is that with zero scrub radius, the front tires pivot around their contact patch centers. As scrub radius increases, the tires start to swing in an arc fore and aft. This eats up clearance ahead of and behind the tires.

SergntMac
08-28-2004, 02:46 AM
Mac, I realise that its easy to get mixed up when looking at the FRP wheel selection, but your link goes to the 4 lug wheel.
My point exactly, Donny...Makes as much sense as looking at pic of a particular car without knowing more about what wheels size is in place, wouldn't you agree?

Donny Carlson
08-28-2004, 04:24 AM
My point exactly, Donny...Makes as much sense as looking at pic of a particular car without knowing more about what wheels size is in place, wouldn't you agree?
True. Wheel stuff is tricky.

Mike Poore
08-28-2004, 08:34 AM
See http://www.rsracing.com/tech-wheel.html for a good description of offset/backspacing. All things are relative, but once you get past the physical clearance issues, decreasing offset increases bearing, ball joint, and steering gear loads and makes the car more likely to wander at high speeds. A little change would be insignificant, but one inch is quite a bit.

No, no it's TWO inches, one on each side, remember, we're not talking about half a car. Here's more old guy stuff. We used to think it was cool to reverse our rims, by drilling the rivets, and turning the hubs inside out. Of course, wheels weren't as wide in those days, but it was enough to tear the crap out of the steering gear, tie rods, king pins and bushings, not to mention handling issues. But chrome 'em, & add Moon caps, and they looked oh, so cool, cruising Richardson’s. Remember American Graffiti? That was us, only at Hagerstown, MD.

Donny Carlson
08-28-2004, 04:58 PM
That's a nice wheel Donny, but interpolating from the conversion chart at http://www.rsracing.com/tech-wheel.html, I think its offset is more like 28 mm
Thank you for posting the link, and the information. There is one thing I want to point out with the conversion chart, though. It does not show a 6.5" backspace wheel (I verfied this measurement on my spare this afternoon) for an 8" wheel, but it does show for a 6, 5.5, 5, 4.5, etc, which is enough to extrapolate what the chart would show for 6.5".

4.5 = 0
5 = 12 (difference of 12 mm)
5.5 = 25 (difference of 13 mm)
6 = 38 (difference of 13 mm)

Which makes sense, because 1/2 inch is 12.7 mm

So, if we extrapolate to 6.5 inches, 38 + 12 = 50 (or just slightly more) mm

which matches what we know for the Marauder wheel.

The FRP 9" wheel,according to the chart, would have a 25.4 mm offset.
Safe to say the offset is an inch more

Okay, I understand it now.

The centerline on the the Marauder wheel is 4.5 inches from the inboard flange, with a positive offset of about 2 inches, the distance from the landing pad to the inboard flange is 6.5 inches, to the outboard flange is 2.5 inches. (the wheel is 9" from inboard to outboad flange, 8" rim width)

The centerline on the FR500 wheel is 5 inches from the inboard flange, with a positive offset of about 1 inch. The distance from the landing pad to the inboard flange is 6 inches, to the outboard flange is 4 inches. (The wheel is 10" from inboard to outboard flange, 9" rim width).

So, that means the FR500 wheel will actually extend 1.5 inches further out than the Marauder wheel, though it will not extend as far in as the Marauder wheel by 1/2 inch. You have a wider wheel sitting further outboard of the car.


Ford really didn't use 50 mm offset wheels just to frustrate us. It was done to reduce scrub radius to about 10 mm, which helped to give the car very good steering. Scrub radius is defined by drawing a front view line from the upper ball joint down through the lower ball joint to the ground and then measuring out to the centerline of the wheel. When we drop offset from 50mm to 28mm, we roughly triple scrub radius. Steering would not just automatically become awful, but smaller disturbances in the road would disturb tracking. Otherwise acceptable tire imbalance or out of round would suddenly be noticeable. As they say in the car business, your mileage may vary. One last downside before I stop playing Jeremiah is that with zero scrub radius, the front tires pivot around their contact patch centers. As scrub radius increases, the tires start to swing in an arc fore and aft. This eats up clearance ahead of and behind the tires.
http://www.jags.org/TechInfo/2001/08Aug01/scrubradius.jpg

Okay, get this too. The closer to zero scrub radius, the better the car will steer, and presumable tire wear will be better. By pushing the scrub radius out more positive will reduce handling.

Technically speaking, to prevent degradation in handling, you should stick to a wheel with an offset that does not change OEM scrub radius. The question becomes whether the increase in scrub radius by 25 mm -- an inch -- will produce unacceptable handling. It may very well be that the additional scrub radius is insignificant to some, and it may be that other owners would hate it. As you said, YMMV.

I still think the FR500 wheels would fit, but whether you'd be happy with them is sorta a matter of preference, sorta like the choice between lowering your car or leaving it stock. Again, I say I'd love to try this out, but there is better things to gamble $1000 on than replacement wheels when our stock wheels are so nice.