Is my goal of 550 to 600 hp practicable?

[John F. Russo]

At my age time is getting shorter and shorter.

I'm aiming for 550 to 600 hp (I think I'm talking about RWHP. Correct me if I'm not.) in the next year or so. But I would like to have Kenny Brown (They were first to give me the most exhilarating ride since I drove my high performance 1961 Ford (see last line on this post), Lidio, Dennis, or anyone else to show me the way.

Am I chicken? Yes somewhat. I have already replaced my transmission and gone through two sets of brakes because of rotor problems for the first 26,000 miles. This next move makes my engine the potential casualty. What the heck, I'm going to be a casualty a lot sooner than many of you. Maybe I can make a contribution to pushing the envelope on this car. The other problem is that in New England we don't have the depth in local performance shops like there are in many other places in the USA. I have one car and my wife has a car. And she has told me on more occasions than one, there is no "bailout". I'm about as anti-government as one can get. So you KNOW that I will go along way before I ask for a bailout.

So I'm ready for another round of pain. The pain from the brakes will be ending on this set of free rotors or I'm going to get another brand! The pain from the transmission is over so far with a Performance Automatic of NJ upgrade at 10,000 miles. It was a very good decision. I was concerned about the hard shifting. But it is only slightly more than I had before. My wife says, "You paid how much for this car and you get that extra motion from the transmission shifting. My dear. "It's just like that extra motion that you use to get from the jitterbug we use to dance." Now you get the same feeeeeling without any expenditure of energy. Wow! You see, I can spin with the best! Now back to the pain. I want the least pain for the money.

From my learning experience in this website with the best and brightest out there, I see two options.

Option 1- exhaust system
I think I would like to start with the exhaust system, but I don't want any more noise, that is, no more than 5 decibels. I use my car for business and I talk a lot on the road. I checked my noise level in my car and it is 65 decibels at 60 mph. Am I asking the impossible? If I'm going to press the limit on this car, I consider the added about 35 ft-lbs of torque and about 20 added horses (These are the numbers from the two to three references I have seen on this website) free because it doesn't add any more stress to the engine.

Option 2- More boost (I think it is most cost effective?)
My current max. boost is 7 psig max.
(I think the cost for a new exhaust system is less cost effective than adding more boost. Am I right?)

Option 3 – You tell me what I have missed that maybe be better than mine

Now let me hear from the best and brightest on this website.

______________________________ _____________________
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Canadian) w/Light Flint (reversed
traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer,
clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light)
-Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03
-26,000 miles
-18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph, one tank of gas
-Stock transmission (upgraded with Performance Automatic
clutches and band after stock tranny failed in 8,800 miles)
-Wheel locks (Ford); godshead valve stem caps
-Badgeless front grille by “Zack”
-Zaino waxing; RainX
Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion (450 hp) Born
3/28/03 (first drove it)
-Vortech supercharger (3 to 7 psig boost)
-377 RWTQ
-4.10 gears
-14 in. BaerClaw front brakes, two piston, slotted/drilled rotors
-MMX Driveshaft
-Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3 Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3
-Ford Racing Stud and Girdle
-Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18 99Y; rear
255/50ZR18 102Y)
-Dead pedal
-FordChip
-3/4 of a coil from each front stock spring removed to produce
the “same” effect as an Eibach spring
-Ground clearance: 5 in.
______________________________ ___________________________
1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel (gone)

[GordonB]

Just my 2 cents worth,
Make trip to Michigan with an Appmt at Lidio's.
Be sure to add Methanol injection system to guard against detonation problems.
Add 2 lbs of boost. and be sure to add the Full Kooks setup, maybe with existing mufflers. Be sure to have exhaust tips sticking out the back when done.
If you don't get the desired results, geta Cobra iron block and then build from there wirth forged internal and then boost some more.
BTW, you can't go wrong with DR, Lidio, or KB.
Enjoy!
GordonB

[cyclone03]

Wow John your shooting at the top for sure.
Being you say "add boost" I have to assume you are Supercharged,correct?

550-600 at the wheels is close to 650-700 at the crank!Holy smokes what kind of business do you do in your car?

Seriously,at that power leval the bottom end needs help,Cobra(type) crank,good rods lower CR pistons.
Then the middle needs help,ported heads,good valves even some cams too maybe.
The exhaust will need a boost to pass all that power to so headers at least should make the list.
Money will also need to go to the fuel system too,front to back,injectors,big fuel rails,new fuel lines and pump(s).
Then to bring it all together a tuner that will take the time to perfect the drivability,you say you drive your car daily this moves up the list very quickly.

I wouldn't attempt this without a good shop that will take the time start to finish to work with you.
This aint going to be a weekend bolt on!

[SergntMac]

John, my last dyno reported 455 RWHP and 399 RWTQ, from a bone stock engine, and I think I've hit the wall. Where you'll face the most risk, is building more RW torque on a bone stock engine. Money and cost aside, the list of mods to consider for your Vortech based MM without rebuilding the engine, is short. Here's a few suggestions for you.

MAF...Kenny uses the OEM MAF in a blow through setup. The 80 MM Lightning in a suck through setup, or, the Pro-M in either, will build more power over the OEM.

Kook's/Cobra manifolds...Kook's headers will build more power than the Cobra manifolds, but produce more cabin noise. If that's a strong concern, the Cobra manifolds do produce power with less noise, my testing showed 30 RWHP and 30 RWTQ over the OEM exhaust. Keep in mind half of this results from improvements from 2.5 OD exhaust pipes and high flow cats, which are remarkably similar to each other in both kits. So, it comes down to around a 10 or so RWHP/RWTW gain from the Kook's over the Cobra's, maybe you should consider Dynamat in the cabin?

Paul's intake spacer does add a few pounds of torque, single digit, but it's so inexpensive and easy a mod, just take what it offers at face value. The numbers do add up. Moreover, likewise inexpensive, is a tad more boost on your KB/Vortech, I'm at 9.5 lbs without any hint of problems. Dennis can get you another pulley, also switch over to a 110.5 inch drive belt.

I'm not going to suggest NOS because I don't know that much about the risks, but I'm sure others will chime in. Nonetheless, your tune would have to be right on the money too, because you're in the red zone on a bone stock engine. The very most I've seen added up, has been Zack's Vortech producing 476 RWHP, 420 RWTQ. A road trip to Lidio, or Paul would be a wise investment.

IMHO, you're reaching for numbers not possible on the OEM build. If you really want 500+ at the rear wheels, your best bet is to start with a Cobra short block with stronger internals and lower compression. Once you do that, you have many more options, and much less risk. If you do this before you have any problems, there may be a market for your OEM short block that will offset your investment.

As usual, just my .02c...

[Marauderman]

Well John, it appears GordonB and cyclone03 have said^^^^^^^^^^ above, what is the max for your current situation...meaning, as Kenny and Dennis have said in the past, the max for our engines, bolt on wise, is about where you and I and others with thses kits are right now--without going internal upgrades for the engine--BIG TIME---

The current set up you have provides for about 430 -450 hp at the RW which give you about 550 at the crank..BUt you want more so ---you appear to need an exhaust upgrade from reading your mod list--which is what I would do first---then if your wallet can stand it, go for the enternal upgrades...but as you have mentioned, Kenny and Dennis would be the ones to talk to since you have a Votec installation already....


I personnally am at my limit, bolt on wise at about 445 RW and 8 PSI ..am loving it with every push on the pedal...Can't imiagine trying to use more on the driving highways.......BUt you did say you want more...so depending on how your refer to your current power..you can already state you have 550 --under the hood now--and thats for sure...........good luck........Tom

[John F. Russo]

John, my last dyno reported 455 RWHP and 399 RWTQ, from a bone stock engine, and I think I've hit the wall. Where you'll face the most risk, is building more RW torque on a bone stock engine. Money and cost aside, the list of mods to consider for your Vortech based MM without rebuilding the engine, is short. Here's a few suggestions for you.

MAF...Kenny uses the OEM MAF in a blow through setup. The 80 MM Lightning in a suck through setup, or, the Pro-M in either, will build more power over the OEM.

Kook's/Cobra manifolds...Kook's headers will build more power than the Cobra manifolds, but produce more cabin noise. If that's a strong concern, the Cobra manifolds do produce power with less noise, my testing showed 30 RWHP and 30 RWTQ over the OEM exhaust. Keep in mind half of this results from improvements from 2.5 OD exhaust pipes and high flow cats, which are remarkably similar to each other in both kits. So, it comes down to around a 10 or so RWHP/RWTW gain from the Kook's over the Cobra's, maybe you should consider Dynamat in the cabin?

Paul's intake spacer does add a few pounds of torque, single digit, but it's so inexpensive and easy a mod, just take what it offers at face value. The numbers do add up. Moreover, likewise inexpensive, is a tad more boost on your KB/Vortech, I'm at 9.5 lbs without any hint of problems. Dennis can get you another pulley, also switch over to a 110.5 inch drive belt.

I'm not going to suggest NOS because I don't know that much about the risks, but I'm sure others will chime in. Nonetheless, your tune would have to be right on the money too, because you're in the red zone on a bone stock engine. The very most I've seen added up, has been Zack's Vortech producing 476 RWHP, 420 RWTQ. A road trip to Lidio, or Paul would be a wise investment.

IMHO, you're reaching for numbers not possible on the OEM build. If you really want 500+ at the rear wheels, your best bet is to start with a Cobra short block with stronger internals and lower compression. Once you do that, you have many more options, and much less risk. If you do this before you have any problems, there may be a market for your OEM short block that will offset your investment.

As usual, just my .02c...

1. "...the Cobra manifolds do produce power with less noise, my testing showed 30 RWHP and 30 RWTQ over the OEM exhaust."
Will I have to replace any part of the exhaust after the manifold? From whom should I purchase the manifold?

I presume that this manifold will add more noise to the cabin, even though it is less than the Kooks exhaust. Right?

2.You mentioned "Paul". How do I reach him?
Do you use a "spacer"?

3. "...maybe you should consider "Dynamat" in the cabin?"
What is "Dynamat"? (A sound deadening material?)Do you use it?

Thank you again for the detailed suggestion.

[John F. Russo]

Just my 2 cents worth,
Make trip to Michigan with an Appmt at Lidio's.
Be sure to add Methanol injection system to guard against detonation problems.
Add 2 lbs of boost. and be sure to add the Full Kooks setup, maybe with existing mufflers. Be sure to have exhaust tips sticking out the back when done.
If you don't get the desired results, geta Cobra iron block and then build from there wirth forged internal and then boost some more.
BTW, you can't go wrong with DR, Lidio, or KB.
Enjoy!
GordonB


I haven't heard of methanol? Is this being used by the others on this website?

Thank you for the suggestion.

[Warpath]

I second/third what has already been stated. You will not get 550+ hp on stock internals - not for long at least. My stock Cobra engine was at 469 rwhp and it didn't even make it off the dyno before cracking a piston. That power is through a manual trans and 4:10 gears. MMs will loose a bit more hp through the driveline with autos. Anyway, if you want 550+ hp, you need to get really serious about it. I have 450 rwhp with my big bore engine w/ forged internals (from Lidio), full exhaust, Paxton blower (~10 psi peak), larger fuel pump and injectors, and some other stuff I'm probably forgetting and I have at least about $12k into the engine alone (includes installation of the engine, tuning, all mods, etc.). I also went a little while without the car.

Just to add to Mac's comments, if you decide to get a OE Cobra short block, make sure it is an 03 or 04 short block with forged pistons and rods (CR=~8.5:1) and not a 96-01 Cobra short block which has the cast pistons and powdered metal rods. The pistons are far too fragile for higher hp applications.

[GordonB]

John,
Tom Doan has a Methanol setup running from his Windshield washer reservoir (50/50 mix of ww fluid and water). Contact him for `how to'. I saw his setup when I went and picked up Panther Interceptor badges 2 weeks ago. He can also give you a few `tips'.
Finally, be sure to do the Dennis Reinhart rear engine cylinders cooling mod -- must have for a forced induction engine.
If I had an extra 1--15 LARGE, I'd have DR or Lidio build me a good Cobra engine and then transfer your Vortech sc. That way you could run at least 15 - 18 lbs of boost and it would get you up there, maybe to 550 RW HP/TQ

GordonB

[SergntMac]

Before I answer here, I'm not promoting any particular vendor, or, saying any one choice is better that another, or not. I'm just answering question in my ususal way, as neutral as possible to brand/vendor loyalty.

Will I have to replace any part of the exhaust after the manifold? From whom should I purchase the manifold?
Yes. The Cobra exhaust system is '03 Cobra manifolds, jet coated inside and out. A perfect port match to our OEM 4V heads, they connect to a one piece exhaust pipe that's home to high flow cats and X pipe. This leads into the OEM mufflers which remain in place unless you want to add some sound "color." The remainder of the OEM exhaust system does not have to change, but you can add the your muffler of choice, and resonator delete tips as well. This will be louder than OEM, but as it has been noted, make sure the replacement tips are placed correctly, and extend at least an inch past the rear bumper. Call Reinhart for more 411.

I presume that this manifold will add more noise to the cabin, even though it is less than the Kooks exhaust. Right?
No. This has not been my experience. The Cobra manifolds are cast iron, thick and heavy, which contains sound producing vibration as it moves through the exhaust system. They look OEM because they are OEM, just from another FMC line. What people often express as "loud" in the cabin, especially in the front seats, is actually vibration felt as it seeps through the customary thinner walls of any header, which eventually becomes audible as it resonates inside the cabin. Therefore, it's a common trait of any header anywhere to allow more vibration to seep and be noticed, because headers are less dense than cast iron manifolds. Ditto this same argument relative to engine bay heat, which slipped my mind while discussing performance exclusively.

You mentioned "Paul". How do I reach him? Do you use a "spacer"?
I own one, but it's not installed yet. I have a larger project underway and testing remains ahead. Meanwhile, Paul Svinicki owns www.paulshp.com a vendor here. He announced this spacer mod with promise of results I cannot verify at this time. But, I find his rationale for the mod exciting, and for the 80 bucks and one hour's work involved, surely worth the bang for the buck. Worst case, one of those "can't hurt" mods if you will. Others here have installed it, but I've not seen any hard testing other than from Paul's yet.

What is "Dynamat"?
Like you guessed, John, it's a sound defeating material, but to be more correect on this, it's vibration control. Originally designed for the custom stereo market, you can use Dynamat almost anywhere on the MM to defeat vibration/sound. I don't use any right now because I like everything I hear and feel, however, a while back another member here complained of rear seat howl when we were just learning we could change mufflers. I used it in my first MM with the Ravin Z55 turbo mufflers, and it was sweet, so, I advised him to lay some sheets under his back seat and rear carpeting, he said it did the trick. Others here have it in their doors and trunk too. BTW, y'all trying to control cabin noise, remember that aftermarket mufflers are not as well insulated as the OEM, and do not come with balancers that defeat normal exhaust system vibration. Y'all can carry over your OEM balancers, or, add some Dynamat here and there to reduce the cabin noise, even to dead quiet. It's a matter of how much you want to spend on Dynamat, available everywhere, Crutchfield online, or, the Best Buy chain for sure.

Thank you again for the detailed suggestion.
You're welcome, just my .02c...

[MAD-3R]

I think the only way your going to hit those numbers with your engine will be to replace all the internals. The block it's self will probebly handle the load, but the pistons will fry and rods will break.

Contact VT competion engines a sponsor here, and the rebuilders of my engine. This will let you reach your goal.

[Dennis Reinhart]

John 550 RWHP can ealiy be made but not on a stock motor I hav out lined this build up several times why not call me I can tell you over the phone exactly what I would do and some prices,

[woaface]

There's too much to read here...has anyone mentioned that all that power will make a lot more noise...period!?

[SergntMac]

There's too much to read here...has anyone mentioned that all that power will make a lot more noise...period!?
Well, it's been said now...Period.

[TAF]

Is my goal of 550 to 600 hp practicable?
Yes it is...and then some.

[Bigdogjim]

There's too much to read here...has anyone mentioned that all that power will make a lot more noise...period!?


James NOISE is the point!

[UAW 588]

James NOISE is the point!
Noise, I think that's Big Joe P's department.

[martyo]

Yes it is...and then some.

On the stock aluminum block???? :confused: :confused: :confused:

[TAF]

On the stock aluminum block???? :confused: :confused: :confused:
Nope....but, his #s are possible....and then some with a little iron thrown in.

[cutt]

Before I answer here, I'm not promoting any particular vendor, or, saying any one choice is better that another, or not. I'm just answering question in my ususal way, as neutral as possible to brand/vendor loyalty.

Yes. The Cobra exhaust system is '03 Cobra manifolds, jet coated inside and out. A perfect port match to our OEM 4V heads, they connect to a one piece exhaust pipe that's home to high flow cats and X pipe. This leads into the OEM mufflers which remain in place unless you want to add some sound "color." The remainder of the OEM exhaust system does not have to change, but you can add the your muffler of choice, and resonator delete tips as well. This will be louder than OEM, but as it has been noted, make sure the replacement tips are placed correctly, and extend at least an inch past the rear bumper. Call Reinhart for more 411.

No. This has not been my experience. The Cobra manifolds are cast iron, thick and heavy, which contains sound producing vibration as it moves through the exhaust system. They look OEM because they are OEM, just from another FMC line. What people often express as "loud" in the cabin, especially in the front seats, is actually vibration felt as it seeps through the customary thinner walls of any header, which eventually becomes audible as it resonates inside the cabin. Therefore, it's a common trait of any header anywhere to allow more vibration to seep and be noticed, because headers are less dense than cast iron manifolds. Ditto this same argument relative to engine bay heat, which slipped my mind while discussing performance exclusively.

I own one, but it's not installed yet. I have a larger project underway and testing remains ahead. Meanwhile, Paul Svinicki owns www.paulshp.com a vendor here. He announced this spacer mod with promise of results I cannot verify at this time. But, I find his rationale for the mod exciting, and for the 80 bucks and one hour's work involved, surely worth the bang for the buck. Worst case, one of those "can't hurt" mods if you will. Others here have installed it, but I've not seen any hard testing other than from Paul's yet.

Like you guessed, John, it's a sound defeating material, but to be more correect on this, it's vibration control. Originally designed for the custom stereo market, you can use Dynamat almost anywhere on the MM to defeat vibration/sound. I don't use any right now because I like everything I hear and feel, however, a while back another member here complained of rear seat howl when we were just learning we could change mufflers. I used it in my first MM with the Ravin Z55 turbo mufflers, and it was sweet, so, I advised him to lay some sheets under his back seat and rear carpeting, he said it did the trick. Others here have it in their doors and trunk too. BTW, y'all trying to control cabin noise, remember that aftermarket mufflers are not as well insulated as the OEM, and do not come with balancers that defeat normal exhaust system vibration. Y'all can carry over your OEM balancers, or, add some Dynamat here and there to reduce the cabin noise, even to dead quiet. It's a matter of how much you want to spend on Dynamat, available everywhere, Crutchfield online, or, the Best Buy chain for sure.

You're welcome, just my .02c...
what is the difference between MM manifolds and cobra manifolds? are they really worth 30 hp by themselves?

[BillyGman]

John, ..."is it practical?" you ask? No it isn't. But neither am I "practical" for modifying my car the way that I have. High performance has nothing to do w/practicality. So now that we have that out of the way, I think what you're really attempting to ask here is if your hopes of atleast 550 HP are realistic, and if your power goals are attainable. The answer to that is "yes". However, it's going to depend on how much $$ you're willing to spend. HP costs $$. The faster you want to go, the more $$ you'll have to spend....


Personally, I wouldn't bother w/a complete Cobra shortblock. And make no mistake about it, if you want 550 rear wheel HP than you better count on a new and improved bottom end. I'd get a bare iron 4.6L block (that is assuming that you're satisfied w/a displacement of 4.6L/281 cubic inches), and purchase and install internals that exceed the quality of a Cobra engine.The internals of the bottom end of a factory Cobra engine are by no means the representation of the pinacle of endurance for a Supercharged engine.

I'd get some serious forged pistons w/floating wrist pins and spiral locks(TRW, or Manley brand) , a set of $800 forged connecting rods (my favorites are Oliver rods) and a $1,000 steel forged crankshaft (there are many good ones for that price including Callies, Lunati, Crower). You should also get the block studded, which will make for a better head gasket seal among other things (which is important for running a lot of boost pressure). Steel main rod caps, or atleast nodular iron ones would be a good idea too, along w/ ARP bolts.

Getting the cylinder heads ported by an experienced shop would also be beneficial. A reasonable consideration would be bigger camshafts too although that might not be neccessary, and there might not be much of a selection of aftermarket camshafts for the 4.6L DOHC engine yet anyway. This stuff won't be cheap, but if you're shooting for some serious HP as you've mentioned, then you'll have to yank the engine out of the car anyway. And if you're going to go through the trouble of investing in a new bottom end, then why not do it right? There's no sense in half-stepping since this will be a major project anyway. I'd also suggest replacing the factory stock rubber motor mounts w/a set of Polyurethane motor mounts. I've used those in a Vette that I had for 6 years, and they're great for the street. The don't cause vibrations like the all steel ones do, and they're a lot stronger than the stock ones, and are resistent to oil, unlike the stock rubber ones.

The bottom line is, if you're not willing to drop some serious coin on this project, then you should forget about shooting for 550 RWHP w/a little 4.6L engine. And it wouldn't be wise to shoot for a power level like that w/the factory stock bottom end.

[Lidio]

Sorry I haven’t chimed in much here this past summer. I intend to start participating a lot more soon this fall as my shop starts to calm down a little.

550 at the rear wheels out of a stock 4.6L short block is attainable and can live for quite a while. As I always say, the key to the longevity is in the tune. By saying the tune this includes the proper octane as well for the application. We have many 32V 96-01 4.6L Cobra's that see 15-20psi of boost with completely stock un-opened motors. These things will belt out 525 to 560RWHP and do it for a long time. Several of them I've worked with are now going on over four to five years like this. The absolute key is don’t run it lean and above all don’t detonate it with to much spark advance for the given level of cylinder pressure and octane.

The 4.6L's that I refer to that make mid 500's RWHP are all Supercharged (typically Voteched & non-intercooled) and all are committed to running locally available Turbo Blue 110 octane leaded race fuel. That’s all their is to it. I don’t get involved if the person wants those kind of numbers at the rear wheels out of such a small motor with the big boost it takes to make 550+ at the rear wheels, if he's only willing to run unleaded fuels. Just to many chances of getting bad gas or intestinally low grade fuel in the higher grade pumps. I guarantee that most boosted motor failures come from poor tunes and lack of octane.

I've had a very fair share of people who think that big RWHP can't be made reliably out of a stock 4.6L. I no longer let that stop us from pushing the stock internals as far as we can. We’ve just done it with little to no problems for to long now on cars that are actually raced and driven hard... not just shown or talked about after a few dyno pulls.

My own personal MM now has 23K miles on it. The Trilogy blower has been on since the ODO showed about 6K. I've beaten my MM's 4.6L to a pulp with almost 14psi of boost and a shot of Nitrous on top of that since almost the beginning. I've driven it every where and every day this way. Their is no sign of a problem. Although I'll be the first to say the a catastrophic problem can come with no warning signs in a hurry. Also Jerry Barn’s #1 MM with the Trilogy is in the 36,000 mile range with the blower now with serious “rental car” like abuse and still no signs of a motor or original trans problem! This should tell people some thing.

When I race my MM now, I only use 100 unleaded race fuel. I no longer trust every day pump gas in such a volatile combination. I do drive and abuse it regularly/daily with pump 93 octane, and it does run awesome like this. But when I know I'm going to pour it on at the track... I run the 93 as low as I can and then pump in the 100 unleaded race fuel. This may seem like a little bit of a hassle, and it is. But most others who try this level of power… ace the stock short block much, much earlier. Most 4.6L's that experience a stock piston failure when a blower or NOS has been added... its not the cast pistons fault that it broke. Its the tune and/or lack of octane. All forged pistons do is buy more time and then eventually a head gasket blows instead if a tune is left aggressive once a better short block is installed.

This reply is not intended to stop people from buying a good or forged short block for their MM if they intend to make big power. I just want to make it known that the stock short block in our MM's can handle quite a bit with a proper tune and octane. Their are to many tuners out their who simply fail to realize that the stock pistons and rods don’t have to break as soon as they think. Its just that most of these guys want to look like dyno tuning heroes and don’t let off when they make an unreliable level of power at the rear wheels on a 4.6L.

Also I don’t think its at all necessary to install a iron 4.6 block in an application that is gong to make even 600HP. Where was our state of mind before the Super charged ’03 Cobra came out?
I’ve yet to take apart a hurt Aluminum 4.6 motor and blame the aluminum block for a failure of any kind. I’ve said this before and I’ll repeat it again. Just because Ford used an iron block in the ’03 Cobra’s does not mean it has to set a precedence for us to follow.

My MM has gone a best of 11.57 at almost 120mph in the 1/4 mile at 4400lbs. This is no less then 550-575HP at the flywheel. When the weather cools off this September I intend to hit my MM's motor a little more aggressively with the tune, with and with out the Nitrous and am hoping to see 11.40's hopefully. My best to date w/o the Nitrous is 11.86 in the colder temps and 12.05 in the 90degree stuff.

One more thing as well… What you should really ask also is what kind of actual performance are you looking for. Because some times shooting for a hi rear wheel number isn’t every thing. This is just a peak number that isn’t the final say in any cars over ability to accelerate real fast or get down the ¼ mile super fast. If the gear, torque converter etc aren’t there, then all them big numbers don’t mean much. My MM and the many others I’ve tuned with the roots type blowers we use make a lot of steam and movement with out the use of overly loose converters, giant rear gears, and crazy, rattley, leaky, crackly exhaust. The power that happens in the mid range with the roots can get a lot done with out changing a whole lot of other parts on the rest of the power train. My MM to this day still has the entirely stock exhaust and torque converter with 4.10s in the rear. It still drives down the road every day like it was never moded. That is until the pedal is really pushed down :2thumbs:


Thanks for making time for this long post.


Thanks

[TAF]

Lidio,


I certainly yield the expertise to you on this subject. But, I'm wondering if you know or can varify what my understanding is, from what I've been told...that the aluminum blocks used on our motors is quite different from those used pre-1998 on Mustangs/Mark VIII, etc. My understanding is that ours have a much higher content of (I think it was nickel) which "cheapened" and reduced the strength of the post '98 aluminum blocks.

Your thoughts?

[Lidio]

As usual there is a lot of talk from different sources as to whether or not the newer 4.6L aluminum block is better or weaker then the older one. I cant say for sure but when you look at the physical differences... the newer block looks stronger. It has more beefy looking webbing on the sides of it along the cylinders and no freeze plugs along the sides as well. To me the newer block looks good. And so far at least in the hotter MMs and Mach-1's I’m in touch with it’s been great.

[stevengerard]

interesting, as actually that is what makes my 1970 big block desirable is because it has higher nickle content than other years. Wonder if it has the opposite effect on aluminum

[BillyGman]

Lidio, a very interesting post. Thanks. I guess it's a matter of the intended use. And also a matter of whether or not John Russo is wanting 550 HP at the crank, or at the wheels. Even my car is putting about 480 HP at the crank. But at the wheels it's 400 even. As far as the intended use, if John wants to use his car for a daily commute like I do, then I think that using race gas on a daily basis would be out of the question unless ofcourse he quite the eccentric type.


So yes, I do agree w/you that the intended use is what's important here. it depends what John wants to do w/his car, and how hard he drives it on the street.

[MI2QWK4U]

I think what some people dont understand or acknowledge is the fact that Lidio has been working with this 4.6 block since it came out. I challange anyone here that has done as much with and to the 4.6 to step up and say so. It appears that some people just dont want to accept the fact that this block can take a lot of horsepower. Its been said over and over again, but the bottom line is the engine can live with the boost and RWHP that some of us are doing; just as long as it has a conservative tune and the gas is exactly what it is supposed to be. Its a well known fact that the race gasses are refined higher and have additives to prevent detonation, so that gives you the consistancy you need when tuning. Many of Lidios best friends, customers, and even brother have the 4.6 that are pushing high boost and 525-560 RWHP in Mustangs, and they have been around for a lot of abuse for a long time. They are tuned right and run on race gas, that adds up to durability and consitancy. I am sure there are folks here with blowers, whether vortec or roots that are pushing the tune to eeek out a couple more at the rear wheels, but that is skirting disaster. Lidio said there is easily 40-50 more HP left in my tune, but that would be asking for trouble and I trust his judgement. That would have given me a totally different result at Indy, trust me, with 50 more at the wheel with the car tuned very agressive, I wouldnt have lost to anyone but Lidio. I guess its not worth it to do that, but I hear some like to tune to the ragged edge when racing. So it would do you well to listen to what Lid has to say, he has the experience and know how that none of us even remotely have. Unlike some, he has nothing to gain by telling you its ok to run that much HP with the stock block, he isnt selling a quick snake oil fix, just sharing his experience.

*The preceding message was approved by MI2QWK4U and represents his Opinion only.

[BillyGman]

I especially like Lidio's article on his website about tuning. here's a link to it....



http://www.alternativeauto.com/tuning/tuning_philosophy.html

[John F. Russo]

I want to thank everyone for their comments especially those who crafted long explanations.

Truly, I could not have paid any one for the many viewpoints given to this posting.

It takes much time to write especially being "techy" types.

I'm digesting the many comments. I'll come up with the steps to my plan of action and announce it.

[Mike Poore]

[QUOTE=John F. Russo]At my age time is getting shorter and shorter.


Hey, old-timer, go for it! That list of mods looks like you've got one hell of a ride already, and a very understanding missus. Be prepared to break stuff though.

<FONT color=black><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><o:p></o:p></FONT></P><P style=
The other guys wanted to know about your car's business application. I guess ...MOONSHINER!<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Um, Logan? I know that last one just took this thread on a hard right, but what could I do?

[SergntMac]

Thank you, Lidio. I like your style!

[RF Overlord]

Noise, I think that's Big Joe P's department.

You got THAT right...!

:lol:

[John F. Russo]

[QUOTE=John F. Russo]At my age time is getting shorter and shorter.


Hey, old-timer, go for it! That list of mods looks like you've got one hell of a ride already, and a very understanding missus. Be prepared to break stuff though.

<FONT color=black><?xml:namespace prefix = o ns = "urn:schemas-microsoft-com /><o:p></o:p></FONT></P><P style=
The other guys wanted to know about your car's business application. I guess ...MOONSHINER!<o:p></o:p>

<o:p></o:p>

Um, Logan? I know that last one just took this thread on a hard right, but what could I do?


Remember in business, the person who gets to the next customer first has an advantage.

And once I get there, it can become an object of conversation. Every little advantage counts in the "race" to get the customer's money.

But I always try make sure that I'm going no more than 10 mph over the speed limit when a state trooper is around. Except one time I did get a ticket for travelling 80 mph on a highway that was posted at 55 mph. I am "enjoying" the the higher insurance rate on my car. But I deserved it!

As the saying goes, when you get a ticket, you can't complain because you deserved probably 20 more of them. It's like a thief, when he gets caught, it is rare that he hasn't robbed many other times without getting caught.


I don't have a radar detector and don't intend to get one.

[John F. Russo]

John, ..."is it practical?" you ask? No it isn't. But neither am I "practical" for modifying my car the way that I have. High performance has nothing to do w/practicality. So now that we have that out of the way, I think what you're really attempting to ask here is if your hopes of atleast 550 HP are realistic, and if your power goals are attainable. The answer to that is "yes". However, it's going to depend on how much $$ you're willing to spend. HP costs $$. The faster you want to go, the more $$ you'll have to spend....


Personally, I wouldn't bother w/a complete Cobra shortblock. And make no mistake about it, if you want 550 rear wheel HP than you better count on a new and improved bottom end. I'd get a bare iron 4.6L block (that is assuming that you're satisfied w/a displacement of 4.6L/281 cubic inches), and purchase and install internals that exceed the quality of a Cobra engine.The internals of the bottom end of a factory Cobra engine are by no means the representation of the pinacle of endurance for a Supercharged engine.

I'd get some serious forged pistons w/floating wrist pins and spiral locks(TRW, or Manley brand) , a set of $800 forged connecting rods (my favorites are Oliver rods) and a $1,000 steel forged crankshaft (there are many good ones for that price including Callies, Lunati, Crower). You should also get the block studded, which will make for a better head gasket seal among other things (which is important for running a lot of boost pressure). Steel main rod caps, or atleast nodular iron ones would be a good idea too, along w/ ARP bolts.

Getting the cylinder heads ported by an experienced shop would also be beneficial. A reasonable consideration would be bigger camshafts too although that might not be neccessary, and there might not be much of a selection of aftermarket camshafts for the 4.6L DOHC engine yet anyway. This stuff won't be cheap, but if you're shooting for some serious HP as you've mentioned, then you'll have to yank the engine out of the car anyway. And if you're going to go through the trouble of investing in a new bottom end, then why not do it right? There's no sense in half-stepping since this will be a major project anyway. I'd also suggest replacing the factory stock rubber motor mounts w/a set of Polyurethane motor mounts. I've used those in a Vette that I had for 6 years, and they're great for the street. The don't cause vibrations like the all steel ones do, and they're a lot stronger than the stock ones, and are resistent to oil, unlike the stock rubber ones.

The bottom line is, if you're not willing to drop some serious coin on this project, then you should forget about shooting for 550 RWHP w/a little 4.6L engine. And it wouldn't be wise to shoot for a power level like that w/the factory stock bottom end.

If you start with my engine an put an iron girdle on it, new mounts while I got the engine out, and add the new crank and rods and pistons that you suggest what rough estimate for the cost to buy the hardware and the installation?

Would you say that it would be between $5,000 to $10,000?

[BillyGman]

If you start with my engine an put an iron girdle on it, new mounts while I got the engine out, and add the new crank and rods and pistons that you suggest what rough estimate for the cost to buy the hardware and the installation?

Would you say that it would be between $5,000 to $10,000?Good question John. Okay, first let me say that as long as you want to hammer the car hard on the street atleast every once in awhile, and as long this car is going to be used alot for street driving with 92 or 93 octane pump gas, much more than it will be used on the track, then I think the need to build up the bottom end applies if you're shooting for 550HP to the wheels.

So w/that in mind, let's go through the list:

Pistons- TRW forged dished (.50mm/.020" overbore) $440 (summit Racing part# TRW-L2608F50)

connecting rods- (3 choices here) Manley H-beam-$572 per set of eight
those would be a direct replacement since the rod length is 5.933"
Also, for that same price you can go w/Crower steel billet H-beam rods which are also a direct replacement. Here's a link to those.... http://www.crower.com/cgi-bin/detail.cgi?prod_id=A93822B-8

However, if you want to go w/the Oliver forged I-beam rods (which I think are better) then I think you'll need to go w/slighty longer rods of 6.0" which would be fine, but would create the need for a shorter compression height of the pistons of about .070" which would require different pistons, which might or might not be available for the 4.6L engine. But the Oliver I-beam rods would cost $720 per set, or $837 depending on which ARP cap bolts are chosen.

The crankshaft might be another story. I don't see any aftermarket cranks available for the 4.6L engines. Atleast not steel forged ones. So from what I've seen so far, it looks like the Cobra crank is the only steel forged crank to go with. I'm not sure of the cost of that, but my guess in the 700-1,000 dollar price range. I can't see it being any more than that. The funny thing is that the 2004 Ford racing catalog only lists Steel cranks for the 96-01 Cobras, but not for the 02's and 03's. I don't know why that is. Perhaps there isn't a market for them yet. But that crank would still offer improved durability over and above any cast crank such as the stock Marauder crank.The Ford racing part # is M-6303-D46

So the break down would be this....

TRW pistons set- $450
rods (Manley H-beam
or crower H-beam)- $572
crank- $900(?)
piston rings- $100
bearings- $100
studs- $50
Head gaskets- $100

Parts TOTAL- $2300 (aprox)

...ofcourse then you'll have to add to that another $1,500 to $2,000 for the labor costs of yanking the engine, as well as machining the block (boring & honing cylinder bores, decking the block, and painting, etc.).

So I'd say w/labor and parts you're probably talking about $4,500 excluding the price of the Suprcharger. And for the pistons, there are two different wrist pin types to go with. The standard fair is the pressed in wrist pins which most if not all factory engines come with. However for high performance applications, floating wrist pins are better since they have better wear characteristics. Unlike the pressed in wrist pins they're held in place with spiral locks that are inserted in the pistons on each side of the wrist pin. I believe that many circle track engines use them as well as some drg race engines too. But the TRW forged pistons like a number of other pistons can be ordered with the floating wrist pins, or w/the pressed in wrist pins. You simply need to specify which one you want at the time you place your order.

I hope this helps. Here's the link to Summit.... www.summitracing.com (http://www.summitracing.com/)

if you need any other help w/part #'s, or other info, then shoot a PM over to me.