Marauder needs a new engine. Options?

[Fishman]

OK, my car's engine is the latest to have been killed by hydo-lock. It'll get it towed to a dealer tomorrow and the insurance adjuster will meet the car there to assess the damage. There appears to be several options, or at least opinions, on which way to take the engine upgrade. Some won't be feasbile technically and some won't be feasible economically. Still, I'd like to get your opinions. After getting the insurance settlement, here are some ways to go:

- have dealer replace stock engine
- buy new 4.6L crate motor and add s/c
- buy new 4.6L crate motor, massage components and add s/c
- buy used 4.6L engine with the same options as above - seen some for ~ $1K at Kar Kraft
- buy new/unused 4.6L engine off eBay with the same options as above - seen one for ~ $2.5K
- rebuild existing motor, beef it up, add s/c
- buy different (larger, more hp/tq) engine that will bolt in (Cobra, Lightning, Ford racing, etc.)
- buy package from Dennis
- buy package from Lidio

There are probably others, so I'm open to hear them.

Thoughts?

[jgc61sr2002]

Hydro lock doesn't necessarly mean that the engine is N.G. Have seen several vehicles with hydro lock where the sparkplugs were removed, the engine turned over to flush out the water. The oil was changed several times, new plugs installed and engine was good as new. There are many variables and there could be serious engine damage. :(

[2003 MIB]

- buy used 4.6L engine with the same options as above - seen some for ~ $1K at Kar Kraft

They didn't seem to know much about the history of these units. They said they tell people the have between 60-80k on them "just to be safe" and they recommend a rebuild after buying. This may not be a drop in and go option.

- rebuild existing motor, beef it up, add s/c.

I like this idea the best. If S/C is for sure, better rods, better pistons (lower compression), better crank would be the best setup.

My $.02

[SouLRioT]

Money not an issue, get the Lightning engine. Ofcourse then you'd have to make sure everything else would fit. But you would deffently have a monster of a car.

[2003 MIB]

Money not an issue, get the Lightning engine. Ofcourse then you'd have to make sure everything else would fit. But you would deffently have a monster of a car.If I remember correctly...It fits but would require a custom hood to clear the additional deck height. It would ba a runner, though...I'd like to change my "vote". Oh, see your PMs Fishman.

[BK_GrandMarquis]

If I remember correctly...It fits but would require a custom hood to clear the additional deck height. It would ba a runner, though...I'd like to change my "vote". Oh, see your PMs Fishman.
I read a post about a guy who did this to a Mustang. He needed a hood scoop to clear the engine too. He wasn't 100% happy with it afterwards. The Lightning engine is heavier and it made the car slow and sluggish in regards to handling.

[BillyGman]

More details would be nice.......first off, what the heck is "Hydro-Lock"??? I've never heard of that. Sounds like some conjured-up fancy name for water in the oil due to a blown head gasket. But please correct me if I'm wrong, and elaborate.


Secondly, if infact the engine is history, then please specify how many miles you had on it, and if it's still under warantee. You're leaving out some key details here that would effect your choices in this matter.

[Marauder8]

Hydrolock is when the cylinders in the engine fill up with water (usually), and the piston cannot compress the liquid, thus locking the engine up. Some times the connecting rods will bend. Sometimes you get lucky and nothing happens after removing liquid by removing spark plugs.......

[SouLRioT]

I read a post about a guy who did this to a Mustang. He needed a hood scoop to clear the engine too. He wasn't 100% happy with it afterwards. The Lightning engine is heavier and it made the car slow and sluggish in regards to handling.

Addco front and rear sway bars, metco watts link and controll arms, should help the handling, but I've seen it in hot rods and none of that was mentioned. As for hood clearance, if a couple of inces were added to where the hood already rises, then more than likely no one would beable to tell its a different hood. I'm sure it could be done, and with the more hp/tq should make up for it beeing a heavier engine.

:twocents:

[Joe Walsh]

The BMW 540s had a history of 'Hydro-locking' because of the low positioning of the air intake...go through a deep puddle while on the throttle and UH OHHHH! I've not heard of this problem in the MM...were you driving in a hurricane???

[bugsys03]

We had some huge storms here the last couple of days with flooding under the bridges. I hazard to guess he tried to plow through?

[SergntMac]

Presuming you are cash ready to upgrade your MM right now, I suggest you buy a Ford Racing Cobra crate engine (M-6007-SC46), and call Paul, Jeff, or Carl, at www.paulshp.com for a set of his conversion motor mounts that will allow you to install this Cobra engine in an MM without changing your stock appearance.

Budget 12K for the crate engine alone, and 3-5K for the install details, and you're done.

In one hefty upgrade, you get everything we lust for, the Cobra internals, a roots blower, and a lot more goodies related to putting 400+ HP to the ground. You will have some crankshaft/tranny mating concerns, but it will get fixed. I'm just telling ya it's not a drop in, but it can be done in one step too. This will require some patience, and endless planning on your part, nonetheless, in one move, you're done. (LOL like any of us will ever be done modding our MMs...LOL!).

OTOH, you could always sell your MM "as is" with a broken engine, and start over?


BTW y'all..."Hydrolock" is not only "water clogging cylinders" and blocking the compression stroke. It is also a result of engine oil splashing up against the crank and pistons from underneath, blocking retreat and with likewise results.

Hydrolock is an extreme load of fluid applied directly to the piston, from one end, or, the other, and the connecting rod takes this punch. The "positive load" is something pushing against forward piston movement. The "negative load" is something holding it back against retreat. From beneath, the most likely suspect is our engine oil not getting out of the way of the downward piston at high RPM, and probably because the version of our 4.6L DOHC selected for the MM does not have an adequate windage tray in place. This makes me wonder about our messing with oil weights, but think what you want.

This is just IMHO, my very own personal .02c. on this, fire when ready...

[jgc61sr2002]

I use the recommended Ford Synthetic blend 5W20. IMO that is the way to go.

[BillyGman]

Well MAC, as for me, I don't like experimenting w/different oils or oil weights anyway. I just use what Ford calls out for in my Marauder, and that's it. But about your comment of putting "400Hp to the wheels" w/a Cobra crate engine. I believe the spec on that is 400HP(or actually 390HP if we're splitting hairs) which actually taken at the crank just like the 302HP figure for our Marauders is. Right? I'm not knit picking. I'm just clarifying. Because 400HP at the crank is substantially different than 400HP at the wheels since the drivetrain as you know is said to absorb about 20% of the HP. Therefore 390HP at the crank of the Cobra engine and the Lightning engine would really yield about 330 or 340HP at the wheels. Unless ofcourse you were speaking of him modifying the Cobra engine or S/Cer once he dropped it in the car. Ofcourse all of this is mere speculation anyway since he hasn't yet mentioned how many miles were on his car, nor if this would be warantee work or not.

[dwasson]

I've heard from many sources that the Lightning motor has many clearance problems. The steering column is in the way, some wheel well needs to be cut away and the hood is too low.

[CRUZTAKER]

VT Engines stroker...someone here has done so already with very nice economical results.

[Fishman]

Thanks for everyone's comments, thus far.

If anyone is interested, I was coming home late after a really really long work day during a huge thunderstorm that had flooded a wetllands area just a few blocks from home. The street was dark, it was raining hard, and it was 3:00a when I drove right into the flooded street stalling the car. Naturally, I tried to start it again - I'm only a few blocks from home. That's what probably did it.

I pulled the plugs today, cleaned everything up, and changed the oil. I was able to turn the engine over with a breaker bar today, which I couldn't do yesterday. So, there was a glimmer of hope...

Tried to start the car and heard that gut wrenching sound of internal metal parts grinding and banging around. There's no doubt anymore.

The intake was soaked and the air filter was so wet that the vacuum from the engine ripped a big hole in it.

This is not a warranty issue - there was no defect in the car. It's something that is covered by your comprehensive coverage of your automobile insurance. Now I just need to figure out whether I'll get dropped after making the claim.

We'll see how the insurance adjustment goes and take it from there.

Just out of curiousity, if I went with a rebuild and beefed up the requisite parts, how much boost could I run in a s/c and what would be a realistic hp measure? I know that guys are typically getting around 450hp on a stock engine, so I'm wondering that with a stronger bottom end, what is within reason?

[Bigdogjim]

VT Engines stroker...someone here has done so already with very nice economical results.


I like this idea, visit the web site or call them.

[Fishman]

BTW, the car has 19K miles.

[BillyGman]

thanks for the explanation. I'm sorry to hear of a fellow Marauder owner having such an unfortunate mishap. I know for certain that you'll have no problem using 14 PSI of boost if you beef-up the bottom end since Lidio has been at atleast 13.5 PSI w/his stock bottom end for awhile now. And I think there has been atleast one other marauder owner doing that as well.


How much higher you can go while still being safe is beyond me. But I think you would have to consider the rest of the drivetrain as well. if you take the power level up to 500 HP at the wheels, now you have to be concerned about the transmission being stock, and the stock torque converter might be in question too. Especially if you'll be taking the revs past 6300-6500 RPM's.

[MarauderMark]

Dennis has the monster mm .it sports a crate cobra motor with 18 psi vortech s/c producing 660 rwhp.thats what it was when i was there and he was having a problem with belt slipage which i don't know if he had fixed that yet or not .but thats the way i would go as well.ORRRRRRrrrr rebuild the motor to handle twin turbo. Yea!!!! :cloud9:

[BillyGman]

Yeah, I knew that Dennis was using a lot of boost pressure, but I just didn't know how much. Personaly, I'd much rather go w/Supercharging that with Turbos when it comes to a Marauder engine since you would be breaking new ground by choosing a Turbo, and you're likely to run into a number of hurdles along the way. Ones that will be time consuming as well as costly.


As for the power level and the amount of PSI chosen w/the S/Cer set-up, you can't rule out the importance of a proper tune. It's very important for any S/Cer application that both the air/fuel ratio, and the ignition timing advance be correct. Otherwise, you'll destroy the engine even if it is beefed-up on the bottom. Forged pistons can still melt and crack if the engine tune is wrong, and head gaskets can blow also. The only two guys that I'd trust a Marauder engine to as far as tuning for S/Cing are Lidio who owns Alternative Auto, and who burns all the chips for Trilogy Motorsports for their Marauder S/Cer kits, and Dennis Reinhart. Both these guys have a lot of experience tuning S/Ced Marauder engines, and Lidio has also been tuning the 4.6L engine in the Mustangs that have been S/Ced w/aftermarket kits ever since this engine first came out in the 90's.

[JET]

Put a HEMI in it

*This a biased opinion.

To get the maximum for the minimum get a new motor if the warranty covers it and slap on a Trilogy super charger and Metco’s control arms & watts link. That is all you need. Drive that for a while and add from there.

Here’s another idea, call TAF (Todd) he has some awesome ideas if your looking to be a little bit different.

[David Morton]

Well if money is not a problem, I'd go for a 460 big block with dual turbochargers and a toploader 4sp close ratio.

Just kidding. If I had a large budget I'd take the current engine and build it up for a 10,000 rpm capable bottom end, as I do believe our DOHC heads can be easily set up for that. Pop in a 3500 stall convertor before you drop it in. Couldn't keep tires on it.

Just imagine sitiing at the traffic light and that Hemi Sport Truck pulls up next to you...

[BillyGman]

If the car will be primarily for the street, then you don't need to take it up to 10,000 RPM's nor would you want to if it's making plenty of power from 2,000 to 6,000 RPM's. And according to what Precision Industries' techs told me (the company that makes the Stallion torque converters) when you go higher than 3,000 RPM's w/the stall speed, you begin to heat up your transmission considerably more. Not good for the street. That will shorten the life of the transmission. Perhaps even w/a cooler installed. But it's just something more to worry about, and it isn't needed for a street car. Now if the car will be trailered to the track all the time, then that's another story.

[Mike Poore]

Thanks for everyone's comments, thus far.

If anyone is interested, I was coming home late after a really really long work day during a huge thunderstorm that had flooded a wetllands area just a few blocks from home. The street was dark, it was raining hard, and it was 3:00a when I drove right into the flooded street stalling the car. Naturally, I tried to start it again - I'm only a few blocks from home. That's what probably did it.

I pulled the plugs today, cleaned everything up, and changed the oil. I was able to turn the engine over with a breaker bar today, which I couldn't do yesterday. So, there was a glimmer of hope...

Tried to start the car and heard that gut wrenching sound of internal metal parts grinding and banging around. There's no doubt anymore.

The intake was soaked and the air filter was so wet that the vacuum from the engine ripped a big hole in it.

This is not a warranty issue - there was no defect in the car. It's something that is covered by your comprehensive coverage of your automobile insurance. Now I just need to figure out whether I'll get dropped after making the claim.

We'll see how the insurance adjustment goes and take it from there.

Just out of curiousity, if I went with a rebuild and beefed up the requisite parts, how much boost could I run in a s/c and what would be a realistic hp measure? I know that guys are typically getting around 450hp on a stock engine, so I'm wondering that with a stronger bottom end, what is within reason?Pat, the part about the pieces/parts grinding and stuff indicates to me that it would be unwise to attempt a rebuild on this motor. Most likely the insurer will let you keep it, so you might be able to part out some of the good stuff. Have you considered one of the Roush offerings? They had a nice display at Carlisle this year, although I guess that puts you back into the weight issue. I'm not sure there's a big difference in weight between the Lightning engine and ours, but, boy, that thing looks awfully tall.

[rayjay]

Anyone know if the Ford Racing 5.0 crate motor would fit?

[Fishman]

Lots of good ideas here. It all comes down to how much the settlement is. It may be as long as Friday until I here from them. The worst part is waiting...

[MitchB]

Maybe you should talk to Jim Oneil. His official title at Ford is: powertrain developmental engineer. He's known Jerry for several years and worked with him while Jerry was at Ford. If anyone can put your Marauder together - anyway you want - Jim certainly can. Jim is in Michigan, about an hour north of route 80. You can reach me at: m5black@aol.com/ I can put you in contact with him.

Mitch

[Brutus]

You will have some crankshaft/tranny mating concerns, but it will get fixed.

Are you refering to the fact that the Cast crank is 6 bolt vs 8 bolt for the forged crank?? Do you know how to get around this when mating it up to an automatic?? Are the forged cranks from VT 6 bolt?? Anyone,...... Anyone?

[FordNut]

Are you refering to the fact that the Cast crank is 6 bolt vs 8 bolt for the forged crank?? Do you know how to get around this when mating it up to an automatic?? Are the forged cranks from VT 6 bolt?? Anyone,...... Anyone?
Dennis has done this. Check with him.

[Mike Poore]

Are you refering to the fact that the Cast crank is 6 bolt vs 8 bolt for the forged crank?? Do you know how to get around this when mating it up to an automatic?? Are the forged cranks from VT 6 bolt?? Anyone,...... Anyone?
Good point, Brutus: I'm sure the cranks/blocks are different for the flex plate (auto) or flywheel for the 5/6 sp. I was thinking about slipping in one of the cobra crate motors with transmission attached, however some of the feedback from the thread I posted, indicate there may be downstream issues making the swap a lot more fun than I wanted to have. There's guys working on various projects, but I'm not leading the charge to learn all the lessons. All that said, I still think an MM with a Cobra crate motor connected to a 5/6 sp would be cool.

[1 BAD 03 MM]

But about your comment of putting "400Hp to the wheels" w/a Cobra crate engine. I believe the spec on that is 400HP(or actually 390HP if we're splitting hairs) which actually taken at the crank just like the 302HP figure for our Marauders is. Right? I'm not knit picking. I'm just clarifying. Because 400HP at the crank is substantially different than 400HP at the wheels since the driveshaft as you know is said to absorb about 20% of the HP. Therefore 390HP at the crank of the Cobra engine and the Lightning engine would really yield about 330 or 340HP at the wheels.

I agree. Link below to a stock 2003 Cobra dyno pull
http://www.dynoperformance.com/search_details.php?ID=377



Unless ofcourse you were speaking of him modifying the Cobra engine or S/Cer once he dropped it in the car.

Link below to a modified 2003 Cobra dyno pull
http://www.dynoperformance.com/member_details.php?ID=838

[Fishman]

Update...

- New motor with LM shop install - insurance will pay out $5K to the shop
- New motor with DIY labor rates - insurance will pay out $4k to me

Not enough to do anything crazy without additional funding from yours truly.

BTW, the block is ruined, so there's no chance to rebuild this motor. The morons at the LM dealer started the car after I told them that I had turned it over (without starting it) and heard the internal damage. Now it has a nice porthole view a little bigger than a quarter at the bottom of the block under #7 cylinder.

I should be finished pulling the engine tomorrow.

As for what's next, I still haven't decided. I thought the settlement would have been higher, giving me more options.

I want to get the biggest bang for the buck with only as additional $2K-$4K, so the budget is b/w $6K and $8K.

[SergntMac]

Now y'all are knit-picking, and foolishly so. 1 Bad 03 MM and BillyGMan, you both are way off the beaten path here, let's look again at what I posted?

Presuming you are cash ready to upgrade your MM right now, I suggest you buy a Ford Racing Cobra crate engine (M-6007-SC46), and call Paul, Jeff, or Carl, at www.paulshp.com for a set of his conversion motor mounts that will allow you to install this Cobra engine in an MM without changing your stock appearance. Budget 12K for the crate engine alone, and 3-5K for the install details, and you're done.

In one hefty upgrade, you get everything we lust for, the Cobra internals, a roots blower, and a lot more goodies related to putting 400+ HP to the ground. You will have some crankshaft/tranny mating concerns, but it will get fixed. I'm just telling ya it's not a drop in, but it can be done in one step too. This will require some patience, and endless planning on your part, nonetheless, in one move, you're done. (LOL like any of us will ever be done modding our MMs...LOL!).
When someone posts a question of "what are my options" my reply will be more global in direction, a suggestion of what is possible, more than specific in details, as I have been here. I never said the Cobra crate engine puts 400HP to the rear wheels, but clearly, it can with the few "details" I also hint at. In fact, I would expect much more than just 400 RWHP once the project is completed.

I agree. Link below to a stock 2003 Cobra dyno pull
http://www.dynoperformance.com/search_details.php?ID=377
Link below to a modified 2003 Cobra dyno pull
http://www.dynoperformance.com/member_details.php?ID=838
The stock Cobra shown here seems to perform well within my expectations of power, in it's stock trim. Showing here is 355 RWHP and 352 RWTQ with 8 Lbs of boost. The "details" of a professional fine tune, and perhaps a tad more boost should push 400+ through this drive train, no sweat.

BTW, why did they dial in a 16 percent driveline penalty? It's a manual trans, is there that much slip on a bone stock Cobra? They estimate 423 HP and 420 TQ at the crank, and that's quite a bit more than Ford's claim of 390, yes? Care to knit-pick that?

[BillyGman]

Naw, no nit picking MAC. Just wanted to be sure that people know that 390 HP advertised by Ford means 390 HP at the crank, and NOT at the wheels. You stated 400 HP, and didn't make it clear that you were suggesting other things like a smaller blower pulley for greater boost, custom tuning, etc. So you left a couple things open to question. A simple explanation would've been fine. No foul, and no biggie.

[SergntMac]

No foul, and no biggie.
Perhaps not, your zeal for accuracy and need for specification is noted.

[281mm]

I have a 03 cobra to 433hp 411tq at the wheels chip,cai, and magna flow. I open track the car so I will not put a pulley on it, the car has more power than it needs or I need on the track. On the motor I would call DSS I bought a motor for a 93 cobra there and it was cheaper than building it my self thay are in every 5.0 mag for the number.

[jgc61sr2002]

281mm - :welcome: to the MM site.

[BillyGman]

I have a 03 cobra to 433hp 411tq at the wheels chip,cai, and magna flow. .Out of curiousity, have you ever taken it to the dragstrip to see what ET's you would turn w/it? If so, what were they?

[Captain Steve]

OK, my car's engine is the latest to have been killed by hydo-lock. It'll get it towed to a dealer tomorrow and the insurance adjuster will meet the car there to assess the damage. There appears to be several options, or at least opinions, on which way to take the engine upgrade. Some won't be feasbile technically and some won't be feasible economically. Still, I'd like to get your opinions. After getting the insurance settlement, here are some ways to go:

- have dealer replace stock engine
- buy new 4.6L crate motor and add s/c
- buy new 4.6L crate motor, massage components and add s/c
- buy used 4.6L engine with the same options as above - seen some for ~ $1K at Kar Kraft
- buy new/unused 4.6L engine off eBay with the same options as above - seen one for ~ $2.5K
- rebuild existing motor, beef it up, add s/c
- buy different (larger, more hp/tq) engine that will bolt in (Cobra, Lightning, Ford racing, etc.)
- buy package from Dennis
- buy package from Lidio

There are probably others, so I'm open to hear them.

Thoughts?
Later...
This is not a warranty issue - there was no defect in the car. It's something that is covered by your comprehensive coverage of your automobile insurance. Now I just need to figure out whether I'll get dropped after making the claim.

Still Later...
BTW, the car has 19K miles.

...
- New motor with LM shop install - insurance will pay out $5K to the shop
- New motor with DIY labor rates - insurance will pay out $4k to me

Not enough to do anything crazy without additional funding from yours truly.

My thoughts are that you have 17k left on your warranty. If you give it to a LM dealer and let them install the new engine you will have that protection on the new engine as well, no?

Another option to explore would be finding a dealer who's willing to work with you. You may be able to get a better than stock engine installed if you're willing to pay extra for it.

It seems a waste of $1000.00 to take it elsewhere, and I'm pretty sure that the dealership would void your warranty on anything that could remotely be connected to work done on the new engine. They've already seen the car,correct?

On the other hand, if your local dealers are all clowns, perhaps you would be better off with something else.