Turbos

[Dan]

What about them? Why are we all so supercharger oriented when a turbo is another great way to make power?

Is it because no one has made a turbo kit for our cars yet or is there some other reason. I'd love to hear your thoughts on them.

-Dan

[martyo]

What about them? Why are we all so supercharger oriented when a turbo is another great way to make power?

Is it because no one has made a turbo kit for our cars yet or is there some other reason. I'd love to hear your thoughts on them.

-Dan


How would you route teh exhaust around the "K" member?

[Jaguar]

Someone does in fact make a turbo kit if I recall correctly.

[woaface]

It's a design thing as Marty said. There are many superchargers that make just as much good power, and the competition brings down the price no doubt.

[FiveO]

Turbo's run off exhaust gases.

There is a spool up time, commonly known as turbo lag.

[Smokie]

Routing of the plumbing presents problems, twin turbos would reduce the lag problem, however the plumbing problem remains. A twin turbo if it could be installed would cost more than the S/C kits offered..

[SergntMac]

First...Most of us here (not all of us, but most) do not perform our own mechanical labor, and the cost of that labor has an affect on the popularity of any mod. Lots of "do it yourself" mods have lost popularity simply because they were DIY mods to begin with. That said, keep this in mind now?

As we all learned from the Buick Gran National, a most efficient induction system is an intercooled turbo based system. Once our MMs rolled out on to the pavement, turbocharging lost ground because supercharging technology was possible with little mechanical knowledge or skill. Supercharging won out only because this technology seemed the cheapest and easiest way to add the power we wanted our MMs to have.

While supercharging taps natural power to function, it does deliver more power that we can use. So, in the end, it's a trade off, but a trade off with less plumbing concerns and side affects than turbocharging.

Let me say it this way? When I decide it's time to add more power to my MM, I see a clear choice between two clean and easy to install supercharger kits that give me everything I need to get them installed, vs...what?

Yeah, a turbocharger kit maybe could work real nice under my MM hood, but a kit hasn't come to the surface.

Age old business conclusion here...Snooze, you lose.

[martyo]

Many of the newer turbo set ups have the lag issue addressed pretty well doncha know..

Why not pick up one of the many Mustang enthusiast magazines out there on the racks to see how popular the turbo set ups have become on the mod motors our cars share, eh?

But for the logistics problems of neatly routing a turbo set up, the "S****t P*****t" would have been built arround a trubo as big as your head.

[Silver_04]

How would you route teh exhaust around the "K" member?
Teh exhaust...he he he

You've brought up something I've been thinking about for a while. There are several K members to choose from for Stangs, and I don't know if the turbo kit made for the Mach 1 requires a K member change or not. But, I've been wondering if a new K member could be made for the Marauder making the Lightning engine swap possible? A tubular K member would be tasty. Aftermarket K members typically eliminate a good bit of weight from the nose too and increase exhaust clearance-thus more options.

Hijack over.

[jgc61sr2002]

Teh exhaust...he he he

You've brought up something I've been thinking about for a while. There are several K members to choose from for Stangs, and I don't know if the turbo kit made for the Mach 1 requires a K member change or not. But, I've been wondering if a new K member could be made for the Marauder making the Lightning engine swap possible? A tubular K member would be tasty. Aftermarket K members typically eliminate a good bit of weight from the nose too and increase exhaust clearance-thus more options.

Hijack over.


IMO the cost would be prohibitive. The Marauder has a perimeter frame where the Mustang has a unibody. I believe the K frame set up is only on unibody vehicles.

[Joe Walsh]

Routing of the plumbing presents problems, twin turbos would reduce the lag problem, however the plumbing problem remains. A twin turbo if it could be installed would cost more than the S/C kits offered..

I spoke to Innovative Turbo Solutions @ a year ago and they said that they could do a custom twin turbo set-up on my MM...Only two problems: they would need the car for 2-3 weeks AND it would run approximately $7,000 +/- depending on the amount of fabrication. I like the idea of twin turbos for reducing turbo lag, but I don't know where they could fit them and I don't want to be a $7,000 guinea pig. I'll keep Jerry's Trilogy S/C kit on my winter's wish list!

[jspradii]

PorTurboKits has already got a kit for the stock Marauder. www.proturbokits.com (http://www.proturbokits.com). Since I've already had my motor built, their kit will have to be slightly modified for mine. When I go to have a power adder installed, this is the way I intend to go. With my nitrous install, the 2.5 second or so "lag" will not be a problem. As Mac has said, there is no more efficient power adder than a turbo. Innovative told me that if they didn't have a market for at least 50 kits, it would not be worth their R&D to develop one exclusively for the Marauder, even though they could do a custom job (which would be a couple thousand more expensive). Check out the Pro Turbo site and see what you think.

[TAF]

Folks in the Southern Marauder "Breakfast Club" got to see a turbo Marauder "up close and personal"...many of us took rides in it....it put down 520 at the rear wheels and went sideways on the 3-4 shift unlike anything I've seen before...

But....

It had 2 major problems....the exhaust had to go under the K-member (unless you're willing to part with a/c and some other things in your engine bay)....and it (and a couple others built by the same group...using the kit from the folks out in San Antonio, I might add) have all "blown up"...and as they used to say on SCTV..."blown up REAL good"

Power is one thing...tuning that power is a whole other ballgame.

[BillyGman]

I spoke to Innovative Turbo Solutions @ a year ago and they said that they could do a custom twin turbo set-up on my MM...Only two problems: they would need the car for 2-3 weeks AND it would run approximately $7,000 +/- depending on the amount of fabrication. I like the idea of twin turbos for reducing turbo lag, but I don't where they could fit them and I don't want to be a $7,000 guinea pig. I'll keep Jerry's Trilogy S/C kit on my winter's wish list!

I believe that Joe's post above^ is very informative, as are some of the other posts in this thread. It isn't for me nor for anyone else to say what's right or wrong for your car, however I think you would do well to keep in mind that for a turbo kit to produce better power than our S/Cer options do, it would cost at the very least $1,000 more, and as Joe has wisely pointed out, your car would be the Lab rat. I think it's important to keep in mind that despite the fact that the Marauder has the same basic engine design as the Mustang does, there are differences that have to be confronted whenever a forced induction project is attempted. Such differences include, but are not limited to, different accessory locations (such as the alternators), different intake tube locations, different engine compartment configurations, and different undercarriage/cross member/frame configurations.

It's for those same reasons that you cannot simply take a S/Cer kit designed for a Mustang, and use it for your Marauder. Just ask "Effster" about that. He knows first hand. Yes, he accomplished quite a task, and obtained some good results, but it was a major undertaking, and one that was NOT void of some high hurdles to get over. My point is, that for you to embark on such a project as a twin turbo installation, your car will become the prototype since there really isn't any for the Marauder. And that means that your time and bank account has to be ready for surprises along the way.And w/a prototype car, your troubles aren't neccessarily over once the project is completed. Infact, that's when they just might be getting started. Better have the checkbook open.....

[jspradii]

I wouldn't recommend a "serious" power adder to any stock vehicle, let alone a Marauder. A turbocharger will crack hypereutectic pistons, just like overboost and detonation on an S/C will do. I don't think a turbocharger is a good bet unless the motor is configured for it. As for the cost; there's no reason a turbocharger kit properly laid out and installed should cost more than most of the superchargers out there. Tuning is, as always, the critical key in performance without "blow up". I'm going to have Mike Murrillo tune mine as soon as it's installed. As for being a "guinea pig", I've never been known to do stuff just because everyone else does it, and I'm fully aware of and prepared to open whatever checkbook it takes to make it work. One has to be prepared to do that in order to satisfy that "need for speed", hopefully without blowing anything up. Next project: Axle upgrade so I can put some serious rubber on the back for the track. :cool5:

[BillyGman]

I wouldn't recommend a "serious" power adder to any stock vehicle, let alone a Marauder. :cool5:That depends on what the Marauder owner in question considers a "serious" power adder. That's a very broad term you've used. For example, a Trilogy Supercharger kit will make your otherwise stock Marauder engine put down 380-385 HP to the wheels consistently, and safely, and that's w/out any other modification done to the entire car. Considering the fact that these cars come from the factory merely putting down 240 HP to the wheels, that's what I call a "serious" power adder. And that's been proven over and over again. A number of the Trilogy equipped Marauders have some serious mileage on their engines also. John for instance("JET") has over 50K miles on his engine and he uses his car to race at the track as well as for his daily commute to work and back(just like I do w/mine), and like all of the other S/Ced Marauder owners, he hasn't sustained any engine damage yet. What turbo Marauder owner can say that? They don't exist. Do they?

And to date, there's about 50 Trilogy S/Cer equipped Marauders(many of whom are on this board), well over 20 Reinhart S/Cer equipped Marauders(also many of whom are on this board), and well over 40 Kenny Brown S/Ced Marauders(some of whom are also on this board). And every one of them have an otherwise stock engine under the hood. So perhaps you don't consider a Supercharger which adds up to 140 HP to a stock Marauder a "serious" power adder, but I do, and so would plenty of other Marauder owners I'm sure.

[jspradii]

It's certainly serious on a stock MM when you go from 240hp to the rear to 380-385hp RWP. The stock set up can handle that and Dennis and Jerry both have not only made it clear, but, as you point out, there is the proof is in the number of Trilogies and Vortechs successfully on the road. Serious hp to me is 700+ RWP on a street machine. You'll have to agree that the stock setup can't handle that, especially without a major transmission upgrade. It remains to be seen if the rear axle package needs to be upgraded to a 9 inch. I won't know that unless and until I break the rear or axle package I've already got. If that happens, I'll deal with it then.;)

[SergntMac]

I'd love to hear your thoughts on them. -Dan
Well, Dan, how did we do? Did we cover the major points?

[JohnE]

One concern about turbos mounted in front of an engine is passing emissions. If the exhaust is too cool, the cats won't be effective. Of course not everyone cares about this.


I personally prefer turbo to supercharge. S/C kit was available, CARB approved and in my price range, so I went that route. My other car is a factory twin turbo straight 6, which is more efficient.

[martyo]

Teh exhaust...he he he

A wise guy, eh??? :stooges:


I've been wondering if a new K member could be made for the Marauder making the Lightning engine swap possible? A tubular K member would be tasty. Aftermarket K members typically eliminate a good bit of weight from the nose too and increase exhaust clearance-thus more options.


All things are possible Chris. See page 47 of the build up of "The S****t P*****t". Coming soon to book stores everywhere.

[Dan]

Well, Dan, how did we do? Did we cover the major points?

Sarge,

It wasn't a test. :) But the coverage of the points has been interesting. There have been a lot of advances in turbos in the last couple of years and there are some companies that make very, very strong kits for the engines in our cars.

Not every company needs to do 50 kits to break even. Not every company knows how to do turbos as poorly as that company that Todd referred to which had engines blowing up. (NOTE: I don't wish to argue that point and I am not casting an aspersion against what ever company was making turbos that were blowing up engines. All I am saying is that if you are repeatedly blowing up engines there must be some things that are not being done or that are being done wrong.)

What I am saying is that all of you have given me a lot of different angles to think about and I appreciate it. As I research power adders I want to make sure that I consider each angle. Part of that is having extra ammo when dealing with someone about power adders and the other part is hearing what folks believe are true for that sake of researching thoes points to determine if this technology, as it current rests, allows for those beliefs are still true or have become antiquated.

Turbos, like chargers, have come a long way in the last 20 years. Mfgrs use them reliably just like they do chargers. I guess I just wanted to get more food for thought.

It is appreciated and the door is still open should anyone wish to add more.

Thanks.

-Dan

[BillyGman]

Sarge,

There have been a lot of advances in turbos in the last couple of years and there are some companies that make very, very strong kits for the engines in our cars. Just remember what I stated earlier in this thread about Marauder applications NOT neccessarily being the same as Mustangs simply because they share the same basic engine design. Just because a kit is engineered and designed for a 4.6L Mustang engine does NOT mean that it will easily work properly on a Marauder engine.

if you are repeatedly blowing up engines there must be some things that are not being done or that are being done wrong. In the case of the Marauder, the problem is that there hasn't been enough testing, and trial & error specifically for these cars. How do you know that any given company that offers Turbos or Superchargers don't end up blowing up the first one or two engines that they install their kits on? That's why I'd never be the first Marauder customer of any company that offers any kind of forced induction kit whether it be a Turbo kit, or a Supercharger kit. Unless ofcourse I was financially well off enough to have absolutely no concern about the possibilty of wasting 10K just to experiment. And if that was the case w/my financial situation, then I'd much prefer to build a killer mountain motor pushrod big block, and find a way to kram it under the hood of my Marauder (which BTW might even be easier than trying to get a 5.4L DOHC engine in there because of the colossal size of the DOHC cylinder heads).

Buyer beware......

[Joe Walsh]

The ONLY positive to being the 'Guinea Pig' on a new forced induction kit is that the company I spoke with about a twin turbo kit would reduce my cost by @ $2,000-2,500 for all of my trouble(s). I appreciated that,... but I'm still not biting on the offer.
*Actually there is one other positive.... popping open the hood and having everyone say "HOLY SH_T! ITS A TWIN TURBO MARAUDER!!!!" :D :D :D

[BillyGman]

.
*Actually there is one other positive.... popping open the hood and having everyone say "HOLY SH_T! ITS A TWIN TURBO MARAUDER!!!!" :D :D :D
Yes, but that would only be the case amongst a Marauder group. I say that because I get that same reaction from people about the Supercharger under the hood of my Marauder when I'm amongst owners of other cars than Marauders.

I remember when I went camping last month in R.I., and I was introduced to a group of people after I just pulled up to their campsite. A couple of them mentioned something about what a nice car I have, but a couple of them didn't seem to care much and kept their distance. but as soon as our mutual friend mentioned to them that my car is Supercharged, they jumped up off their picnic bench, and came walking over to my car very fast and wanted me to open up the hood. That's simply a typical reaction (although not the reason why I've S/Ced my car).

[SergntMac]

I see your points, Dan, and I mostly agree. Any new automobile on the market is a fresh challenge for developers of aftermarket products. Some simply take the tried and true kit from last year and update that to fit the new model, while others see an opportunity to strike at something new, break new ground. In testing, both may have some breakage to deal with.

I too heard the stories way back then about the MM breakage and never gave the stories much creedence. Sometimes rumors are more believeable than truth, and have little to do with truth, but more to do with the telling. I always ask myself "why am I hearing this?" Still, breakage tells us where not to go with the mods, to know our limitations, and some good comes from that.

BTW, my Kenny Brown Marauder S is the first supercharged Marauder anywhere. It endured violent testing, both in construction and by third parties independent of the builder, and I continue to beat on it today. Patches is doing just fine, so, it's not always a bleak outlook for the pioneer. This MM has also enjoyed being first with a few other mods, and it continues to do well with prototypes in place.

[cyclone03]

Folks in the Southern Marauder "Breakfast Club" got to see a turbo Marauder "up close and personal"...many of us took rides in it....it put down 520 at the rear wheels and went sideways on the 3-4 shift unlike anything I've seen before...

But....

It had 2 major problems....the exhaust had to go under the K-member (unless you're willing to part with a/c and some other things in your engine bay)....and it (and a couple others built by the same group...using the kit from the folks out in San Antonio, I might add) have all "blown up"...and as they used to say on SCTV..."blown up REAL good"

Power is one thing...tuning that power is a whole other ballgame.


Todd how is it the KITS fault if the kit comes without tuning and boost is set to make 520hp to the wheels by the end user?

Seems if the boost was backed down to make 420-440hp like the Belt driven guys have the engine would live a little longer.

Just a thought.

[martyo]

Seems if the boost was backed down to make 420-440hp like the Belt driven guys have the engine would live a little longer.


Lance: You know that more than boost levels go into the tune. There are many more parameters that go into a proper tune.

Alos, the cars that Todd was referring to were not kits but custom designs that apparently didn't get all of the bugs worked out before they broke.

[TAF]

Todd how is it the KITS fault if the kit comes without tuning and boost is set to make 520hp to the wheels by the end user?

Seems if the boost was backed down to make 420-440hp like the Belt driven guys have the engine would live a little longer.

Just a thought.
Lance...I never said it was the kits fault...just these folks worked with the folks in San Antonio and used their stuff/kit. Keep in mind...the internals/tranny of both of those turbo cars WERE "beefed-up" as well.

The turbo kit IS "ghetto", with exhaust going under the k-member though.

[cyclone03]

Lance...I never said it was the kits fault...just these folks worked with the folks in San Antonio and used their stuff/kit. Keep in mind...the internals/tranny of both of those turbo cars WERE "beefed-up" as well.

The turbo kit IS "ghetto", with exhaust going under the k-member though.

I can't argue the "ghetto" of the exhaust going under the crossmember.
I know it was done to connect to the stock exhaust system.

So your contacts are the folks that ProTurbo built the kits for out of state,Jan-Feb. this year?

I know several Mustang racers are running there set ups,very quickly too.

[TAF]

I can't argue the "ghetto" of the exhaust going under the crossmember.
I know it was done to connect to the stock exhaust system.

So your contacts are the folks that ProTurbo built the kits for out of state,Jan-Feb. this year?

I know several Mustang racers are running there set ups,very quickly too.
I (we) actually all took rides in the car at our January breakfast...so, yeah...end of last year/first of this year is about right. Doesn't matter whether it was to the stock exhaust or not...getting exhaust back through the engine bay and over the crossmember can not be done in a turbo setup on our cars...UNLESS...you remove a/c or other items...abs...air ride...or all of the above.

[Dan]

What happens if you rebuild the k-member so that it allows the exhaust back through?

I am still a llittle unclear about what the k-member is.

All, please know that I am reading everything here and am weighing it heavily. I like to research projects a lot before undertaking them. So far, this place has been great for that purpose.

-Dan

[TAF]

What happens if you rebuild the k-member so that it allows the exhaust back through?

I am still a llittle unclear about what the k-member is.

All, please know that I am reading everything here and am weighing it heavily. I like to research projects a lot before undertaking them. So far, this place has been great for that purpose.

-Dan
Dan,

In Logan's pic below...you can see the front suspension. See how his headers come from the engine bay over the crossmember? On the turbo cars I've seen...the exhaust comes under this...so...your ground clearance is like 4" or less. One speedbump at the 'ol Wal*Mart...and you're toast.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/513/1DSC011731.jpg (http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showphoto.php/photo/901/password/263233a0dd0b5fe0053e90d33d4b6b a0/sort/1/cat/all)

[Dan]

Thanks, TAF. I get the picture.

-Dan

[Dan]

Just remember what I stated earlier in this thread about Marauder applications NOT neccessarily being the same as Mustangs simply because they share the same basic engine design. Just because a kit is engineered and designed for a 4.6L Mustang engine does NOT mean that it will easily work properly on a Marauder engine.


Billy,

It seems to me that what you are referring to would have to refer to the plumbing of the charger and the fitment.

I guess what I mean is, how different can the MM "Cobra" engine be from any other Cobra engine?

Are you saying that if you took a Cobra engine from an '03 mustang and one from an 03 MM, put them both on stands, and installed the same turbo "system" on them that the one on the MM engine would not work? Or, are you saying that it won't "EASILY" be made to work?

Don't get me wrong. I am not saying that I think you are wrong or defying your knowledge. I just don't follow the logic, that's all.

-Dan

[Dan]

How would you route teh exhaust around the "K" member?

Marty,

To answer the question I would place the turbos at the front of the car in the vicinity behind and below the headlights. The headers would feed forward to the turbines. On the exit side of the turbines the pipe would run from each turbine back and right over the crossmember where the exhaust usually runs. Unless I am missing something I see the need for only one pipe to be running over the cross member in the same manner that the exhaust runs now.

Does this not make sense? I am not an expert on this so feel free to help me understand more clearly.

-Dan

[BillyGman]

No problem Danny......First let me point out that although the Marauder engine is a 4.6L power plant, it is NOT a Cobra engine. The Cobra engines have a different compression ratio (considerably lower) and different exhaust manifolds too. Look at my post previous to the one you've quoted from for more info about this. The Cobra also has different fuel pumps, and I believe different fuel injectors also. Not to mention that the engine compartments on those cars are different, and the accessories (such as the alternators) are mounted in different places than they are in the Marauder(which BTW does matter during a S/Cer installation).

As far as your reply to Marty, my question would be......would it be detrimental to efficiency to make the plumbing of the turbos considerably longer?

[martyo]

Does this not make sense? I am not an expert on this so feel free to help me understand more clearly.

Dan, I know it sounds simple but its not.

Try doing a mock-up with the parts and you will quickly see that it doesn't all fit together that nice and neat. Don't forget you also need to get the intake side plumbed as well. The parts consume more room than you might imagine. Also, the turbos get awfully hot and need some space so they don't cook other components. Now, factor in an intercooler or an aftercooler if that is to be included in your build up as well.

I am not saying that it can't be done. I am also not saying that I wouldn't want to see it done, because I would. I am saying though that it would be time consuming and expensive.

[Dan]

I understand. I guess I am wondering how it can fit in a Mustang and not our much larger cars.

-Dan

[Dan]

No problem Danny......First let me point out that although the Marauder engine is a 4.6L power plant, it is NOT a Cobra engine. The Cobra engines have a different compression ratio (considerably lower) and different exhaust manifolds too. Look at my post previous to the one you've quoted from for more info about this. The Cobra also has different fuel pumps, and I believe different fuel injectors also. Not to mention that the engine compartments on those cars are different, and the accessories (such as the alternators) are mounted in different places than they are in the Marauder(which BTW does matter during a S/Cer installation).

As far as your reply to Marty, my question would be......would it be detrimental to efficiency to make the plumbing of the turbos considerably longer?

Is there a Mustang engine that our cars are equal to? How did they tweak our engine to make it different? I am interested to know if our engine is a bastard child (albeit a delightful one) or is was from the parts bin?

Please give me more detail.

As to the length of the plumbing, my research indicates that the distances we are talking about are inconsequential or can be compensated for with engineering.

-Dan

[martyo]

I understand. I guess I am wondering how it can fit in a Mustang and not our much larger cars.

-Dan

Mustangs are not "full frame" cars like our Panther based vehicles are, so the suspension components are significantly different.

[Dan]

Oh, I see.

-Dan

[Krytin]

I know this isn't a very popular view point, but what the heck! Based on my own personal experience maintaining engines w/turbo chargers and/or superchargers (some have had both), I would not want a turbo on my car due to the heat from the exhaust cooking the engine oil going through the turbo (along w/everything else in close proximity to the exhaust side of the turbo). I've seen more turbo failures than s/c failures in my own personal experience. That said - turbos obviously work in many applications. The engineering and technology is available to make turbo lag virtually non-existant. If you have strong feelings about it - I'm sure there is a way to turbo an MM! Good Luck!

[Dan]

In my opinions all thoughts are welcome here so long as we continue to keep it civil in the way that we have to this point. :up:

-Dan

[Krytin]

Thanks Dan - fairly said!

[BillyGman]

Dan, you would think that there is more room under th hood of a Marauder than there is w/a Mustang, but I don't think that's neccessarily the case. Atleast it doesn't look to me like there is. Perhaps that's debateable, I dunno. But the main thing is that unless there's more room specifically where you would need it to be for the turbo components, then it's a no-go which I believe is what Marty was implying.


The Marauder engine is very similar to the 99-02 Cobra engines, and also to the Mach I engines as far as I know. But the 03, and 04 Cobra engines are different, since they have different pistons, connecting rods, and crankshafts (all are forged unlike on the Marauder). The Marauder engine has Hyperuetectic pistons which are also of a flat-top design which accounts for the higher compression ratio (9.8:1) than that of the S/ced Cobras (8.5:1 I believe).

I'm not a big fan of Turbos in general, however I do appreciate you bringing up this topic, and it's good to get everyone's input on these matters. I do think that the potential problems that have been pointed out by myself and others are very real regardless of what mine or anyone else's preferences are when it comes to forced induction choices. I hope this helps.

[cyclone03]

Sorry for not quoteing.

Internally our engine is the same as the automatic Mach 1.

Externally the intake faces the driverside on the Marauder,passenger on Mach's and 'Stangs.

All the front dress is different,A/C,power steering it's all different.

Now the engine bay...

Biggie on the left is the ABS control with all the brake lines.
The right side the A/C takes up a lot of room.
Then the cross member,it seems to take up what ever space is left.

Yes you would want one down tube from the turbo out,but we also want to make 400-500 hp so that one becomes at least 3" maybe even 4",where are we going to put that?So you split the down tube to 2 ovaled 2 1/2" an run them under the cross member...
A whole lot of plumbing needs to be installed with a turbo,allmost to the point that for a real good set up everything is built around the turbo system.

Turbo in place then everything else built around that.

BTW the turbo on the Pro turbo kit sits front and center up high for oil drainback.

Next the real world HEAT,yup a lot of exhaust tubing,it seems to be everyware...

I would still love to have a turbo Marauder 7-8lbs and 400+hp to the wheels!
At least thats what the Mach 1 made I saw on the dyno.

Oh I forgot, all the turbo set ups I've seen for Mustangs use a tubular K member to add clearence for the turbo and plumbing.

I don't think we'll see an aftermarket k member for the Marauder.We only have 11000 on the street,and how many of those will be Turboed?

[BillyGman]

Next the real world HEAT,yup a lot of exhaust tubing,it seems to be everyware...

I would still love to have a turbo Marauder 7-8lbs and 400+hp to the wheels!
At least thats what the Mach 1 made I saw on the dyno.


Hey, that sounds like there's a lot of good info there. It seems to me that because of the extra heat that the engine would be exposed to, that getting 400 HP to the wheels from a turbo kit wouldn't even be as desireable as the 400 HP that you can easily get to the wheels using 9.5 PSI of boost w/a Supercharger and headers. Please correct me if I'm wrong on this, because I have a much greater understanding of S/Cers than I do of turbos. But based on what atleast two different members here have said about the engine bay heat that's generated from a turbo system (my guess is that a twin turbo system would mean even more heat) it would mean engine temperatures being considerably higher than w/Supercharging (intercooled or not).

So if that's the case, then I wouldn't think that getting the same HP level at the wheels w/a turbo would be as good as the same power level from S/Cing because of the extra heat being bad for engine durability, and increasing the possibility of detonation.

[Dan]

My God,

Ford saw that they had all that room so they put stuff wherever. It's like they were arranging the living room furniture so they could use up all the space. :lol:

-Dan

[cyclone03]

My God,

Ford saw that they had all that room so they put stuff wherever. It's like they were arranging the living room furniture so they could use up all the space. :lol:

-Dan

Dan thats just perfect! And TRUE!

[Dan]

I have been doing a lot more research on this and have spoken to some folks in the biz.

Here is what I have learned...
1. I think that in the next 6 months we will see a turbo kit for the MM and maybe more than one.
2. A kit should be buildable without going under or through the crossmember
3. Heat is not as much of an issue as we think. Heat would become an issue if someone was on the turbo for extended periods of time but then heat will become an issue with other power adders, too, given those circumstances.
4. Routing is not as much of an issue as we think. Yes, some things need relocating but there is plenty of room to locate them elsewhere.

That's all I have for now. I am glad that this hasn't been any arguments about this. As I gather more info I will share it. I wish I could go into a lot more detail on each of the above points but I don't have the time to do that right now and I am not sure that I could interpret the gear talk accurately either. :)

-Dan

[Bradley G]

My take on this Dan I like how crazy for info you are. how about this board??thanks guys, enjoyed it.the products available now for power adders Vortech/Eaton both deliver similar times, yes?If you open the hood of each one and showed someone who knew nothing and asked whadda ya tink? My impression( perception)is the Eaton looks oem whereas the vortec looks aftermarket.that is not the sole reason I would go with it but looks are way up there.Turbos are (may) be the thing to look foward to but, so far the Eaton has impressed me the most.But please carry on I see we both got on board the same time u got me beat on posts 2x:razz:

[Dan]

Thans, Bradley. I am sort of like Billy in that I'll do research X 3 to come down to a final choice.

My idea of looks is limited to a clean, well installed product. I see your point about wanting a stock looking install and that is great but I think that any gearhead is going to know from the minute you pop the hood that something is up.

I have pretty much decided that I won't be opening the hood on my car too often once the power adder is in. :) At least not until the person who wants to see it has travelled a quarter mile (behind me, I hope. :))

-Dan

[Dan]

PL: Let's PLEASE not begin talking about the stock/non stock look of any power adders other than turbos. :) Thanks.

[Bradley G]

sorry It's all I could contribute I have'nt seen any turbo Marauders to give my opinion. Except the photos of the Procharger
PL: Let's PLEASE not begin talking about the stock/non stock look of any power adders other than turbos. :) Thanks.

[Dan]

No need to apologize at all. I was just stemming what I thought might be a few comments on the matter. :)

[RCSignals]

one of our members apparently has a twin turbo set up
'UNSTOPPABLE" look him up and ask.

[GreekGod]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Ford's record on the turbo vs. supercharger issue. Currently, I think turbocharging from Ford is only done with the Diesel trucks and that's a "horse of a different color" from cars. When/what were the most recent factory turbo Ford's? I can only think of the mid-80's (4-cyl.) T-Bird and the (German import?) Mercury/Mercur XR4TI. Lately we have the Lightning truck, Mustang, and GT. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Sure, a turbo can make a lot of power but what are the drawbacks, compromises, and many other issues to consider for street use? The turbo's time seems to have come and gone! What/how do they do it in England and Europe? And then there is my not-so-humble opinion. I've seen a few turbos at the drag-races and I don't like them! They sound like a vacuum-cleaner. Since it's well established the 2005 Marauder was going to be or could have been supercharged, and we have kits available that appear OEM/factory, and they get 20+ mpg on the hiway, I say "forget about a turbo". If you want to be different, I suppose you would install a turbo. You will be banging your head against a wall, and I told you not to do it. I will tell you I told you so.;)

[GreekGod]

The Aviator 4.6 DOHC is almost identical to the MM 4.6.

[grampaws]

The four cylinder engine used in the Turbocoupe and svo mustangs

was a weak excuse for an engine..with or without the turbo...
The 4.6 dohc has proven it is a capable engine under boost
conditions...Starting with a strong platform eleviate many of
the problems associated with the four banger nightmares
ford produced in the past..irrregardless of the boost method chosen..

[JohnE]

Anyone looked at the new Mazda 6 Turbo? Or the many Volvo Turbo cars?

I have a Volvo S80 T6. It's a straight 6 with twin turbos. Pressure is around 5psi. So it's not the high peak hp design most people think of when the term 'turbo' comes up. The Volvo actually has a wealth of low end torque and a broad powerband. The turbos are both oil and coolant fed. Engine oil capacity is 7.3 quarts. It also has throttle by wire and variable valve timing.

The SVO Mustangs were pretty good for their time. They sure were fun to spool the turbos :D They even could run both 87 and 92 octane by the flip of a switch.

Don't everyone forget that Ford has other car companies under its belt too. Which means it has the engineering data and lessons learned from them as well. If you ever study the new Ford 500, you'd notice many items from the Volvo S80. (Too bad they stuck a Tarus engine into it.)



John

[Dan]

I am not saying that it can't be done. I am also not saying that I wouldn't want to see it done, because I would. I am saying though that it would be time consuming and expensive.


Mary-O,

I just reread this and laughed. It is ironic to hear this comment coming from a guy who has a leather wrapped roll cage and won't tell the gang how much he spent on his conversion. :)

Please, this is not an insult. It is sort of humorous, though, from my perspective. :up:

Best,

Dan

[TAF]

Mary-O,

I just reread this and laughed. It is ironic to hear this comment coming from a guy who has a leather wrapped roll cage and won't tell the gang how much he spent on his conversion. :)

Please, this is not an insult. It is sort of humorous, though, from my perspective. :up:

Best,

DanIt's not just the cost....but, any exhaust going under the K-member is just plain wrong...

I've seen turbo'd Marauders...took a fast ride in one...and as most prudent folks would say...no thanks to ricer type tubing of the exhaust.

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=67 35

[martyo]

Mary-O,

I just reread this and laughed. It is ironic to hear this comment coming from a guy who has a leather wrapped roll cage and won't tell the gang how much he spent on his conversion. :)

Please, this is not an insult. It is sort of humorous, though, from my perspective. :up:

Best,

Dan

I am not insulted at all.

I will say that I don't know why you all need to know what I spent.

I did enjoy re-reading this too. Wait 'til I drop a pushrod motor in my car. Then we can all laugh! :D

[Joe Walsh]

The four cylinder engine used in the Turbocoupe and svo mustangs

was a weak excuse for an engine..with or without the turbo...
The 4.6 dohc has proven it is a capable engine under boost
conditions...Starting with a strong platform eleviate many of
the problems associated with the four banger nightmares
ford produced in the past..irrregardless of the boost method chosen..


I disagree...
Yeah, the OEM cast iron cylinder head is lame, but hey....most FORD OEM heads suck!
Those little Pinto 2.3L 4 cylinders can and will take an incredible amount of boost, RPM, and abuse and still survive.
MM&FF pumped 28+ Lbs of boost :eek: through a STOCK 2.3 SVO engine and ran dozens and dozens of dyno runs with NO failures.
In OEM form the 85-86 SVOs ran great and the Turbo T-birds were much like our Marauders.... the willing engine had way too much weight to deal with.
I have a 'weak excuse' being built* that should easily lay down 400+ RWHP and flat out embarass a V8 Mustang.
*(2.5 stroker with ported Esslinger aluminum head & Garrett GT35BB Turbo)

Sorry...... :hijack:

BTW, As has been stated in previous posts; the A/C, Anti-lock module/piping, and BIG aluminum K member EAT UP all the room for Turbo piping in our Marauders.

[GreekGod]

Tubing on a V8 turbo is a "can of worms" that creates unimagined access & service problems. Most dealers would tell you to "hit the road, Jack and don't-choo come back no more, no more". Now, an inline 4 or 6 cylinder makes a lot more sense on the street & maybe that's why Ford went with the 2.3 turbo when they were popular. JohnE made a good point about the Volvo S80 and the new 500. I never thought about Ford using the Volvo turbo in the 500 and maybe such a setup is in the works since there doesn't seem to be room for a OHC V8. I'm also reminded of a friend's Volvo (or Saab?) that had the sparkplugs on the firewall side of the head! The engine was slanted back on an angle which made access even worse. He said it was no fun to get at them and a really stupid way to build a vehicle... hey, a leather wrapped roll cage, cool! Is it black leather with conchos, fringe, chrome studs, and HD emblems or tan colored Western style with tooling? If you have not ever seen a "King Ranch" F250/350 they have the best and classiest interior I think any motor company ever put in a mass produced vehicle. MM V8 turbos are best left to the racer crowd. Lookit TAF's photo of the pipe(s!) blocking/covering the swaybar and the rack and decreasing ground clearance! I spent 2 hours reading the nightmare accounts of turbo dealer hassles on other sites. The supercharger kits are a no-brainer option for all but the MM "2 %" crowd. If you want to be different, imagine a I6 300 Ford with a cross-flow head and a turbo in a MM! Or how about Joe Walsh's example:Those little Pinto 2.3L 4 cylinders can and will take an incredible amount of boost, RPM, and abuse and still survive.
MM&FF pumped 28+ Lbs of boost :eek: through a STOCK 2.3 SVO engine and ran dozens and dozens of dyno runs with NO failures.
In OEM form the 85-86 SVOs ran great and the Turbo T-birds were much like our Marauders.... the willing engine had way too much weight to deal with.
I have a 'weak excuse' being built* that should easily lay down 400+ RWHP and flat out embarass a V8 Mustang.
*(2.5 stoker with Esslinger aluminum head & Garrett GT35BB Turbo)
BTW, As has been stated in previous posts; the A/C, Anti-lock brakes, and BIG aluminum K member EAT UP all the room for Turbo piping in our Marauders.-...Put that in an MM and you might take 300 pounds off the frontend of the car and do wheelies at the dragstrip with slicks on the back! I recall seeing photos of the turbo T-birds doing wheelies when modified for dragracing. The weght transfer would generate tremendous traction. Now go out there and really dare to be different!

[Dan]

Greekgod,

After having read your last few posts I am left twitching for an answer to one very simple question...

Have you ever heard of creating paragraphs? :lol:

Nothing personal. Honestly. I'm just keeping it light.

Best,

Dan

[Dan]

Marty 0 - I don't think that anyone is stuck on knowing what you spent. I think that we would all like to have as much toy money to play with as you do. I was just commenting on two different threads that I thought converged in a humorous manner.

TAF- Why do you think that tubes under the k-member is "wrong"? Is it because of the reduction in ground clearance?

An open question... how difficult would a tubular k-member be to create?

Best,

Dan

[Dan]

Some of my thoughts on turbos in a 4.6.

1. I think that there are enough 4.6 turbo charged cars on the street and the strip that the question of engine durability and/or "will it work on our engines" is answered.

2. I agree. The plumbing is a much larger issue.

3. I wish that I could afford to fund the R&D on a project like this by myself. From a business point of view developing a twin turbo set up priced between 5-6K seems like a good idea.

Again, thanks, all, for keeping this thread professional.

Best,

Dan

[Dan]

The two points for me that are prominat in my mind are the upside potential for HP that comes from a turbo/twin turbo set up and the overall efficiency of the turbo set up.

Best,

Dan

[GreekGod]

Greekgod,


After having read your last few posts I am left twitching for an answer to one very simple question...

Have you ever heard of creating paragraphs? :lol:

Nothing personal. Honestly. I'm just keeping it light.

Best,

Dan...I apologize for my lack of computer skills. I wish I could figure out how to make paragraphs! :( I only learned how to copy and paste a month or two ago :shake: . If I have any excuse...I'm getting to be an old dog that can't seem to learn new tricks or maybe the situ is complicated by pre-senile dementia. :depress:





<!-- / message --><!-- sig -->

[Dan]

No harm, no foul, kind sir.

I'll be more than happy to offer you a few BBS tips and tricks that will make it all so much easier for you. Just PM me by clicking this link...

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/private.php?do=newpm&u=2089

and I'll reply with what I have. :up:

Best,

Dan

[DeepSea117]

One concern about turbos mounted in front of an engine is passing emissions. If the exhaust is too cool, the cats won't be effective. Of course not everyone cares about this.


I personally prefer turbo to supercharge. S/C kit was available, CARB approved and in my price range, so I went that route. My other car is a factory twin turbo straight 6, which is more efficient. By CARB approved, do you mean California Air Resource Board? I didn't know Texas followed those standards. Also, I thought there were't any CARB approved S/C kits out there specifically for the Marauder?

Hey Dan,

Regarding Turbocharging, maybe this might give another perspective. I have a 93 Honda Civic, which has numerous Turbo kits out there, but only one Supercharger package, by Jackson Racing. The Supercharger kit would give about a 40% improvement over stock HP, and was generally chosen for low-end grunt, since anything above 12psi would have negligble gains (couldn't be intercooled). The Off-Road use only Turbo kits (DRAG, Fmax) would give mostly top-end. But, the street legal kits (Greddy, HKS, Edelbrock) give similar performance to the supercharger, albeit still with a little lag, but full boost is achieved at a much lower RPM than the high-boosting Off-road turbos.

Most people would opt for the High-output Turbo on the Civic because of the reachable 250 FWHP as opposed to acehieving around 140 FWHP only with the Supercharger. The thing is, these would be really big turbos that would take forever to spool up, so there still wouldn't be any low-end grunt like a supercharger. Jackson uses an Eaton-style supercharger, and is good for day to day use.

Now how this relates to the conversation is on a Marauder, is if you're going for a turbo, and Smog is not an issue...go balls-out and go for the highest HP achievable. There is actually decent low-end on our Marauders, and I'm assuming this is for drag racing? Turbocharging is capable of so much more, because of the ability to boost so high. It does mean building the internals, but I figure if you're going to commit to a Turbo with High HP, might as well do everything right. There are already superchargers for day-to-day use, so building a Turbo kit for day-to-day use with about 400-500 RWHP, well, that would probably be closer to the price for a higher 700 or so RWHP Turbo kit, than it would be for the price of a Supercharger. Defnitely not for the faint of heart, nor thin of wallet.

Bottom line: If you turbo, go for the biggest gains safely possible, as that will be more satisfying than building a turbo kit to match the current superchargers for our Marauders' output. Either choice, "streetable" or "serious" output for the turbo, would probably cost a lot, time and money-wise, so might as well make it serious. Why invest all that time and money just to go as fast as everyone else?

[grampaws]

I am aware of successful applications of this motor
but the multitude of vibration and oilburning issues..it was not the
best of motors..One T-coupe I have personally known had four motors
before the owner dropped in a 5.0 blown motor..

I disagree...
Yeah, the OEM cast iron cylinder head is lame, but hey....most FORD OEM heads suck!
Those little Pinto 2.3L 4 cylinders can and will take an incredible amount of boost, RPM, and abuse and still survive.
MM&FF pumped 28+ Lbs of boost :eek: through a STOCK 2.3 SVO engine and ran dozens and dozens of dyno runs with NO failures.
In OEM form the 85-86 SVOs ran great and the Turbo T-birds were much like our Marauders.... the willing engine had way too much weight to deal with.
I have a 'weak excuse' being built* that should easily lay down 400+ RWHP and flat out embarass a V8 Mustang.
*(2.5 stroker with ported Esslinger aluminum head & Garrett GT35BB Turbo)

Sorry...... :hijack:

BTW, As has been stated in previous posts; the A/C, Anti-lock module/piping, and BIG aluminum K member EAT UP all the room for Turbo piping in our Marauders.

[Joe Walsh]

I am aware of successful applications of this motor
but the multitude of vibration and oilburning issues..it was not the
best of motors..One T-coupe I have personally known had four motors
before the owner dropped in a 5.0 blown motor..

Yep, these little beasts DO vibrate...they didn't use balance shafts back then...

[AzMarauder]

Yep, these little beasts DO vibrate...they didn't use balance shafts back then...
Ah.. but ... depending on how much you try and modify 'em... if you leave them "relatively stock" they are nice high mileage motors. I've had 4 87/88 Thunderbird T-coupes. Mileage from 85k up to 225k. One blown headgasket, one cracked head. That is all I saw..

The 2.3L motors in these cars are TOUGH !

What gives them somewhat of a bad rep these days is the cars can be purchased for about $2500. Unless the car is purchased by someone who "loves" the TC.. it is purchased by folks with limited financial means. Something breaks, they don't fix it, they don't do the maintenance required... and pretty soon you have a dead bird !

The market value on a TC is also in the crapper. :alone:

[RCSignals]

............................ Since it's well established the 2005 Marauder was going to be or could have been supercharged, .....................

Actually as I recall, it was to be the 2004 starting around Jan 2004.
It was set to go and killed at the last moment. (Elena Ford)

[David Morton]

Actually there is a new idea when it comes to turbocharging that may solve the plumbing issue, expense issues and the lag issue, but it won't give us anything we can pop the hood to show off.

It's the Squires Turbo System. (click here) (http://www.ststurbo.com/home)

I've been reading up on his patented method and it's starting to make sense. Since the cooler exhaust back at the mufflers is denser, it seems correct to assume it can move the impeller just as well as the thinner, hotter gases up inside the engine bay.

His customers are claiming some dang fine results and no complaints of lag.

However he's not making one for our car, yet.

But as far as I know, it's not a violation of patent law for me to make one for my car, as long as I don't sell it to somebody.

[torinodan]

It's the Squires Turbo System. (click here) (http://www.ststurbo.com/home)

I said this a long time ago it seems, but where are you going to put it in our cars?

[grampaws]

Replace the mufflers.?

[David Morton]

I plan to put two right where the mufflers are now. The system calls for losing the mufflers and putting the turbos where the mufflers were.

If you check out the site you'll see they've got a dual system pending sale for the '05 Mustang GT under future products. They've got a dyno chart on it showing 447 RWHP and 480 RWTQ on 7psi boost! And that's on a 3 valve engine if I'm not sorely mistaken.

Still, I'm pretty sure I'm gonna get a Sean Hyland short block at the least so I can go for some real horsepower after the powertrain hard part mods are finished. 700+ RWHP is what this car needs. Gimme a year, maybe two. Creek don't rise.

[JohnE]

Power is achieved by getting flow through the engine. It is not more boost that nets increased gains. Boost is only a measure of the air restriction feeding the engine.


The power source for a turbo comes from a pressure differential across the exhaust side. There are some advantages of the cooler muffler location. Keep in mind that the entire exhaust piping up to the turbo has to be greater than the exit. Mufflers do made a pressure restriction, so replacing them with a different restriction isn’t a complete change. But keep in mind that in order to push the air to the intake of the engine, energy is taken from exhaust backpressure. My expectation is that the Squires design turbo is okay for low pressure/flow, but not good for better than 5psi. The greater pressure you want, the more backpressure and this would be a horrible lag to pressurize all that piping.

Keep in mind that the engine has to develop power prior to a turbo receiving its power source. The chicken has to come before the egg here.

[Dan]

I agree but we are also talking about a very big pump pumping out to a relatively small turbo. STS claims lag of less than .05 seconds.

Dan

[David Morton]

Check out the site videos guys! Mike Rs STS Corvette is doing 9.88 seconds! (click here for the video) (http://i.b5z.net/i/u/1473169/i/C5%20Corvette/miker988mph.wmv) I don't think he did that on 5psi. Maybe in the tires. :lol:

Also go to the Garret home page and find the PDFs they have about turbo design. I learned they make a turbo that'll do just about whatever you want. You want 20 psi waiting at the throttle plates at idle? Piece of pie! You want 30 psi at 8000 rpm? Easy as cake! Just plug in the numbers you want, expect to trade off something for what you want and they make it already, on the shelf and waiting to ship.

[RCSignals]

I'm surprised no one mentioned Ford's record on the turbo vs. supercharger issue. Currently, I think turbocharging from Ford is only done with the Diesel trucks and that's a "horse of a different color" from cars. When/what were the most recent factory turbo Ford's? I can only think of the mid-80's (4-cyl.) T-Bird and the (German import?) Mercury/Mercur XR4TI. Lately we have the Lightning truck, Mustang, and GT. Those who forget the past are doomed to repeat it. Sure, a turbo can make a lot of power but what are the drawbacks, compromises, and many other issues to consider for street use? The turbo's time seems to have come and gone! What/how do they do it in England and Europe? And then there is my not-so-humble opinion. I've seen a few turbos at the drag-races and I don't like them! They sound like a vacuum-cleaner. Since it's well established the 2005 Marauder was going to be or could have been supercharged, and we have kits available that appear OEM/factory, and they get 20+ mpg on the hiway, I say "forget about a turbo". If you want to be different, I suppose you would install a turbo. You will be banging your head against a wall, and I told you not to do it. I will tell you I told you so.;)


I owned a '84 Cougar XR7 turbo. They were never meant to be a super speed demon. They were meant to provide (almost) four cylinder economy in a package that could perform like the V8 option of the time, and it did that well.

I wouldn't say the engines were weak at all, that four is well proven.
While I had no problems with mine, the turbo itself was prone to problems from heat.