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superd
09-09-2004, 10:11 PM
My dads early 03 Marauder developed a miss
noticeable at idle. Car was taken to dealer and
mechanic indicates it has a dead cylinder. I assume he did compression test and found it to be low.
Then he runs codes and finds Reinhart performance
chip and says this will not be covered under warranty because of chip. Tech rep comes out and
we go over the problem and he stands firm with no warranty due to chip. Do early Marauders have
a documented head problem?? Dennis Reinhart says it is well known.Contacted Steve
Babcock several times via email at ford but no reply.. Apparently cooling jacket problem and seats crack..Any info on this to help fight ford will be appreciated.. My dad is 73 years old and has owned maybe 30 or more Ford vehicles and is upset to say the least.. I'm capable of repairing head myself or making custom seats..Any info about this helpful also .. THANKS superd
Mark D.

BillyGman
09-10-2004, 12:28 AM
Was this a Ford SVT dealer that the car was brought to? If not, then that might have been the first mistake.

Bradley G
09-10-2004, 04:06 AM
superd,I live in Barrington. I see you got Chipped 14 mo. ago. did u(father) buy in woodstock? Is that where u took it for repair??have u discussed this with a factory rep?

martyo
09-10-2004, 04:12 AM
I will never understand why you guys find these warranty denials unfair.

You altered the vehicle. The manufacturer warranted the vehicle to operate under a specific set of parameters. You altered them, now you want the manufacturer to deal with it. Why is that fair?

TheRealSkyWolf
09-10-2004, 04:23 AM
Because the chip isn't what caused the problem. It's just an excuse for the dealer to get out of fixing a known problem.

2003 MIB
09-10-2004, 04:23 AM
You altered the vehicle. The manufacturer warranted the vehicle to operate under a specific set of parameters. You altered them, now you want the manufacturer to deal with it. Why is that fair?
Although it's not a popular view, I agree with what Marty says here (in more than principle-given my broken connecting rod). I hate to be discouraging but I don't think you're going to have much luck with the Ford Rep.- I think your path is through the good will of your dealer- Your father is clearly a loyal customer and they may be able to work something out. Good Luck!!

Bradley G
09-10-2004, 04:24 AM
Are You saying the chip was responsible for a bad head?IF it were me I'd try on ford's dime(only because of the failures due to cooling no flow thru heads)Worth a shot.

2003 MIB
09-10-2004, 04:28 AM
Because the chip isn't what caused the problem. It's just an excuse for the dealer to get out of fixing a known problem.
Yep, you got it- 100% correct- you know it- I know it- Ford knows it. The reality is sadly that Ford doesn't care about you or the problem. The are able to push the little guy around knowing that he doesn't have the time or resources to fight a court battle against a large multinational corporation. They deny- you are unhappy but does it really mean much to them- nope.

superd
09-10-2004, 04:39 AM
Car seems to have history of this type of problem.. In stock form..
Anybody with mechanical background knows chip
didn't cause this problem..Car is at Rosche Ford in
Elk Grove village..Chip was installed because of poor ,Lazy. improperly timed transmission shifting.
Not because dad wants to set land speed record..
Ford rep came out and reviewed situation..Denied
because of chip.. I have super duty diesel pickup
chipped also..Eats transmissions (4r100 auto) at
regular intervals and ford replaced under warranty no problem at same dealer..
Seems we have double standard working??
Thanks for the replies. Superd.
Next call is to an attorney or repair head myself..

Mike Poore
09-10-2004, 04:43 AM
My dads early 03 Marauder developed a miss
noticeable at idle. Car was taken to dealer and
mechanic indicates it has a dead cylinder. I assume he did compression test and found it to be low.
Then he runs codes and finds Reinhart performance
chip and says this will not be covered under warranty because of chip. Tech rep comes out and
we go over the problem and he stands firm with no warranty due to chip. Do early Marauders have
a documented head problem?? Dennis Reinhart says it is well known.Contacted Steve
Babcock several times via email at ford but no reply.. Apparently cooling jacket problem and seats crack..Any info on this to help fight ford will be appreciated.. My dad is 73 years old and has owned maybe 30 or more Ford vehicles and is upset to say the least.. I'm capable of repairing head myself or making custom seats..Any info about this helpful also .. THANKS superd
Mark D.I agree with the guys about dealing with corporate bean-counters. When the Cobra war involving the 99's kicked up, the guys at Blue Oval News got into the fight and initiated a class action lawsuit which forced Ford to deal with it. I suggest you visit their website and ask about the cylinder head issue. http://www.blueovalnews.com/

rayjay
09-10-2004, 04:44 AM
[QUOTE=superd]My dads early 03 Marauder developed a miss
noticeable at idle. Car was taken to dealer and
mechanic indicates it has a dead cylinder. I assume he did compression test and found it to be low.
Then he runs codes and finds Reinhart performance
chip and says this will not be covered under warranty because of chip. Tech rep comes out and
we go over the problem and he stands firm with no warranty due to chip. Do early Marauders have
a documented head problem?? Dennis Reinhart says it is well known.Contacted Steve
Babcock several times via email at ford but no reply.. Apparently cooling jacket problem and seats crack..Any info on this to help fight ford will be appreciated.. My dad is 73 years old and has owned maybe 30 or more Ford vehicles and is upset to say the least.. I'm capable of repairing head myself or making custom seats..Any info about this helpful also .. THANKS superd

What is the code on your fathers engine? There seems to be a series number that has had this problem or worse. I'd print all the posts relative to that and hand them to them. Go the NHTSA site and look up all the complaints ref this problem with the MM. Print them out. Look up the Magnuson-Ferguson Federal SEMA Act. Print it out and ask for their proof that the chip caused this. Some dealers have been known to do the right thing when confronted this way. Although, Ford is notorious for this, even if you buy the parts from Ford Racing.

martyo
09-10-2004, 04:53 AM
Are You saying the chip was responsible for a bad head?IF it were me I'd try on ford's dime(only because of the failures due to cooling no flow thru heads)Worth a shot.


Bring your wallet. You will need quite the team of lawyers and experts.

How can you be so sure that the alleged cooling adequacy is what caused the head failure? After all how many of these motors live to see well over 100,000 miles?

2003 MIB
09-10-2004, 05:12 AM
How can you be so sure that the alleged cooling adequacy is what caused the head failure? After all how many of these motors live to see well over 100,000 miles?
I don't think anyone can really say that, Marty. I think what can be said is that Ford is capriously denying warranty claims on chipped vehicles even when the chip has nothing to do with the failure.

martyo
09-10-2004, 05:48 AM
I don't think anyone can really say that, Marty. I think what can be said is that Ford is capriously denying warranty claims on chipped vehicles even when the chip has nothing to do with the failure.

Probably Dan, but put your business owner's hat on for a second and see if you can still blame Ford.

2003 MIB
09-10-2004, 06:07 AM
Probably Dan, but put your business owner's hat on for a second and see if you can still blame Ford.
Man, if I'm ever in trouble with the law, Marty- I'm calling you.:2thumbs: :2thumbs: It's good lawyering to pick a word that illicits an emotional response. "blame" is a powerful word - it implies that one is not responsible for their own actions and is a victim. That's not how I feel about any of this.
My mods.-My money-My fault...no question.
If it can be objectively shown that my mod. caused the problem- I have no issue with paying.
The failure of Ford to examine the head as described and to be so bold as to say "it's got a chip so it's not covered" is corporate arrogance that leads to short term profit and short term customers.

grzellmer
09-10-2004, 06:52 AM
I agree with most here that Ford is hiding behind the chip so as to avoid an engine replacement. Every time a thread of this type is posted, someone mentions the Magnuson-Ferguson Federal SEMA Act. Lets be honest here, this law isn't worth a S***. It takes time and a lot of money to fight a denial of coverage with no guaranty of winning. Most opt to pay for the repair themselves rather than fight a denial. Automakers know this and take full advantage of it.

So to those that mod their cars, do so with the knowledge that your playing Russian Roullette with your warranty. I believe its unfair in most cases but thats just the way it is.

(My warranty expires Nov, 05 - can you say S/C under the tree Dec, 05)

TripleTransAm
09-10-2004, 06:54 AM
I would pull the head and compare it with the pictures I posted. Any good mechanic would be able to spot the localized overheating. If it's not the problem (ie. if a piston blew through because of overly lean setting from the chip), then I agree the problem was customer-originated.

But considering I was stock down to the original air filter and my car RARELY and I mean RARELY saw anything close to WOT, and I still developed that valve guide-munching overheating last Fall, if the symptoms look anywhere near the same I could not possibly put the blame on the chip.

Joe Walsh
09-10-2004, 07:07 AM
Absolutely...Ford is using the "chip" excuse to hide the defective cylinder head/cooling issue....BUT I agree with what others have said in this thread...If I were a Ford Service Manager and someone brought in a car, any car, with a chip in it, I would be very suspicious!! Who can say what kind of chip it is, who tuned it, what kind of A/F ratio, shift points, etc. was it running??? Modifyer BEWARE!!! Unfortunately Superd & his dad have a legitimate warranty issue and are going to get SCR_WED by Ford.

MAD-3R
09-10-2004, 07:16 AM
:whistle: :whistle:

Tallboy
09-10-2004, 07:21 AM
i'm with martyo on this one. altering the vehicle in this manner can void your warranty. billygman is also right-if it's not at an svt dealer, it should be, as they are more familiar with the consequences of these mods. maybe the chip caused it, maybe it didn't. putting the chip in put the bullet in ford's gun. you can't fire a shot with no ammo...

SILVERMARAUDER
09-10-2004, 07:36 AM
Probably Dan, but put your business owner's hat on for a second and see if you can still blame Ford.
my super chip can put it back to stock and is suppose to be undetectible :thinker:

2003 MIB
09-10-2004, 07:38 AM
:whistle: :whistle:
:lol: :lol: :lol: :lol: Best post of the day!!

Tallboy
09-10-2004, 07:47 AM
my super chip can put it back to stock and is suppose to be undetectible :thinker:
a programmer is not the same as a chip.

Smokie
09-10-2004, 08:07 AM
I agree with Marty that once car is altered they can deny warranty coverage, now this may sound silly but the owner still can ask Ford and the dealer to meet them half-way. If Ford and the dealer offer nothing at all; then I would cease to do business with Ford for the rest of my life and become walking negative advertisement against the dealership and Ford.

If enough people completely stop doing business with Ford if they feel Ford screwed them it will have an impact, if Ford does you wrong and you continue to buy their product...well, no comment.

I have never had a warranty issue with Ford that was not resolved in an amicable manner, always have been treated fairly...however if I am ever treated badly I will cease to do business with them for the rest of my life. I don't need Ford to have a life...they may need people like us to stay in business.

Warpath
09-10-2004, 08:56 AM
I agree with Martyo and co. I certainly am willing to pay for any failures my mods may cause - warrantied or not. You have to understand the consequences of making mods before making them. If you don't understand, then don't do it. Regardless of what anyone says, a mod will reduce the life of the system modified. Ford gets tons these claims all the time especially on Mustangs and Cobras. If they try to be the nice guy and pay for the repair on their own dime, they'll either be out of business or the costs will be passed on to every consumer via higher prices (which will eventually put them out of business anyway with the car market being so competitive). It would be like asking Ford to pay for the repair if you got in an accident. So, why get insurance?

I hear these complaints all the time on Mustang boards. "I modified my engine to produce 400 hp and my trans fell apart. Ford sucks. They don't know what their doing." :rolleyes:

Ford is not required to provide these cars. They are not the government. If you don't like how Ford handles these things, go buy something else. Good luck finding another manufacturer willing to pay for your mistakes.

OK, I'll get off my soap box now.

duhtroll
09-10-2004, 10:51 AM
But see, the problem is that they are not asking Ford to pay for their mistake.

I agree that if your mod causes the problem, you should pay for the damage. It is not proven in this case, however, that this is what happened.

I had this exact same talk with my dealer. We have a gentleman's agreement that what I break is mine to pay for, but if it's not related it's a normal warranty claim.

This discussion took place after they wanted to make me pay for a tail light assembly where the trim had come off. They denied coverage because I painted the lens 8 months prior.

We agree that they will stop throwing the mod excuse in my face every time something unrelated goes wrong, and I will pay for it when it's truly my fault. They know about every mod on my car, and they also know I will be researching every statement they make - like when they told me it's 2.2 hours of labor (at senior master tech rate) to install plugs. Yeah right, with no thumbs maybe.

I have to look at most claims that come from car dealers with skepticism. Sadly, they have not given me much of which to be confident. They rank just above meteorologists in my book as far as accuracy of claims.

Sad, but true from experience. No offense to dealers on board, but I heve never seen another type of business where things are simply fabricated to make more money - playing on the ignorance of the consumer, and right to your face even! Well, politics, but you get my point.

-A

Cobra25
09-10-2004, 12:47 PM
I was wondering , is their any way with all the members we have here that we as a large group can get ford to address the head problem we all have and get them to fix it? As one we have no power but as a group with over 1800 members we have. Just a idea.

rayjay
09-10-2004, 01:11 PM
I was wondering , is their any way with all the members we have here that we as a large group can get ford to address the head problem we all have and get them to fix it? As one we have no power but as a group with over 1800 members we have. Just a idea.
Everyone here that has had the cooling related head failure should file a complaint with the NHTSA. When enough complaints are filed for the same issue the NHTSA will visit the issue with Ford. At that point Ford may make it right for consumers who have had this problem. I personally saw this work with the fuel pump failure issue on the 00-01 Ford Focus. Ford had to issue a recall. All who had paid out of pocket for a new fuel pump were reimbursed for the cost.
I wonder if Ford knows there is a problem. The coolant in my 04 is orange in color. All the engine bay photos I've seen of 03s show green coolant when the coolant tank is visible. The dual knock sensors on the 04 may also be a hint that they know there was problem. I doubt they were put on to improve performance.

Dennis Reinhart
09-10-2004, 05:15 PM
The bottom line is Ford knows there were problems with the earlier heads period, the stopped production of these heads, and replaced them with a updated head, and the head that has the problems is the drivers side, any chip sold has nothing to do with this problem, the Ford dealer here will make any repair but if its found its chip related its on you in this case it's a known fact that the early Mach 1, Marauder and 03 Cobra had head issues. So the fact is they are using the chip as a excuse to void the warranty, and if handled properly it probably would be covered under warranty, it's a shame this has happened, thats why I recomend tuners most of the time. Till the car is out of warranty.

http://www.marauder57.com/Reinhart%20SC%20Banner%201.gif

jgc61sr2002
09-10-2004, 05:21 PM
Dennis - Will your cooling Mod eliminate the problems with the heads.?

Dennis Reinhart
09-10-2004, 06:18 PM
Dennis - Will your cooling Mod eliminate the problems with the heads.?

The head design was wrong Ford knows that but the rear kit may help, but I would not guarentee this, bottom line is the earlier 4V heads were prone to head problems, do to insuficant coolant flow which caused the valve seats to distort.

jgc61sr2002
09-10-2004, 06:28 PM
The head design was wrong Ford knows that but the rear kit may help, but I would not guarentee this, bottom line is the earlier 4V heads were prone to head problems, do to insuficant coolant flow which caused the valve seats to distort.

Dennis - Which Marauders have the early head design? Is it only the 2003's( A or B model) or does it include the 2004's? Thanks

rayjay
09-10-2004, 06:58 PM
Somewhere here there is a post with the engine code number that has had most of the problems. Thankfully my 04 did not have that code. I can't find the sticky note with the code number on it. It was in a post in the past week. Found the thread http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12295

Marauderman
09-10-2004, 07:51 PM
(My warranty expires Nov, 05 - can you say S/C under the tree Dec, 05)
................hell, I SC'ed mine at 9800 on the clock..........screw'um....... Tom

grzellmer
09-10-2004, 08:14 PM
The head design was wrong Ford knows that but the rear kit may help, but I would not guarentee this, bottom line is the earlier 4V heads were prone to head problems, do to insuficant coolant flow which caused the valve seats to distort.

Dennis

Other than the dead cylinder SuperD reported are there any other signs to identify a particular car might have this problem?

superd
09-10-2004, 08:21 PM
Thanks for all the replies.. I am reading them all..
Just wondering what all you machinists out there
think of a beryllium or ampco valve seat..
Of course if it's the bore for the seat in the head
or the head itself that is distorting it would influence the seat also...Head could possibly be stress relieved with heat treating process..
Just thinking out loud....
Thanks again Mark d. (superd)

cruzer
09-10-2004, 08:48 PM
I haven't read the warranty on my Marauder word for word, but I believe I remember an arbitration clause in the warranty in the past--I would try arbitration if it is available

Murader03
09-11-2004, 04:37 AM
The first mistake was leaving the chip installed when taking it to the dealer in the first place. I have since gone to the handheld tuner which makes it easier to replace the OWEM program. When mine overheated last Febraury, I removed the chip prior to the dealer visit. They replaced the stuck thermostat under my extended warranty. Several months later, it developed the miss, again, I removed the chip prior to dealer visit. They found two bad cylinders, engine replaced under extended warranty. This engine has a history of bad cooling on #4 and #8, it's know around the Ford circles, they know it, we know it. When they ordered my replacement short block, there were only 2 in the entire country. Took an extra 10 days to have one of these shipped in.

Murader03
09-11-2004, 04:37 AM
The first mistake was leaving the chip installed when taking it to the dealer in the first place. I have since gone to the handheld tuner which makes it easier to replace the OEM program. When mine overheated last Febraury, I removed the chip prior to the dealer visit. They replaced the stuck thermostat under my extended warranty. Several months later, it developed the miss, again, I removed the chip prior to dealer visit. They found two bad cylinders, engine replaced under extended warranty. This engine has a history of bad cooling on #4 and #8, it's known around the Ford circles, they know it, we know it. When they ordered my replacement short block, there were only 2 in the entire country. Took an extra 10 days to have one of these shipped in.

jakdad
09-11-2004, 05:09 AM
Welcome to the Lightning world. Number one, the chip should have been pulled before going to the dealer. However this doesn't solve the problem. When they look at the computer and see evidence that the car was chipped, they still void the warranty. That's why it's better to go with a tuner.The 1999, 2000 and a few 2001 Lightnings have only about 3 threads in the spark plug holes. This was a problem on the 4.6 and 5.4 engines. Plugs could launch at any time taking the threads along. Ford would replace the head under warranty but if that vehicle had chip evidence, forget it. And there will be no recall due to the thousands of these heads on the road. Good luck but I'm afraid they got you.


:mad2: :mad2: :mad2:

SergntMac
09-11-2004, 06:32 AM
Ford would replace the head under warranty but if that vehicle had chip evidence, forget it. And there will be no recall due to the thousands of these heads on the road. Good luck but I'm afraid they got you.
I agree. When faced with a monumental expenditure of this nature, the bean counters would advise "ignore it, and duck it when you can." I like the suggestion of arbitration, and possibly working out an agreement that's fair to both sides here. One pay labor, the other buy parts. Seems rational, but that's what is wrong with it too.

jakdad
09-11-2004, 07:16 AM
I agree. When faced with a monumental expenditure of this nature, the bean counters would advise "ignore it, and duck it when you can." I like the suggestion of arbitration, and possibly working out an agreement that's fair to both sides here. One pay labor, the other buy parts. Seems rational, but that's what is wrong with it too.I wish Bill Gates owned a Lightning that blew plugs!!!

Dennis Reinhart
09-11-2004, 08:00 AM
Dennis

Other than the dead cylinder SuperD reported are there any other signs to identify a particular car might have this problem?

Yes there is, and its lifter noise this is what most 03 Cobra owners notice first

Warpath
09-11-2004, 08:37 AM
But see, the problem is that they are not asking Ford to pay for their mistake.
...-A

Well, my comments were purely general in nature and not specific to this instance. It just upsets me when people try to steal from Ford or other OEMs by modding their cars, breaking them, putting them back to OE, then having them repaired under warranty. I work for an OEM. So, it bothers me when people try to take money out of my pocket. superd's situation may be different. I wasn't pointing fingers at anyone in particular or questioning the ability of anyone on this board.

TripleTransAm
09-11-2004, 08:41 AM
I wish Bill Gates owned a Lightning that blew plugs!!!


Well, he owns an operating system that blows chunks... and nothing's changed in decades, so... ;)

Haggis
09-11-2004, 09:03 AM
................hell, I SC'ed mine at 9800 on the clock..........screw'um....... Tom

I'm with you Tom only one better. I didn't even see my Marauder yet and it was S/C'ed with 75 miles on it.
:burn:

jakdad
09-11-2004, 09:16 AM
Well, he owns an operating system that blows chunks... and nothing's changed in decades, so... ;) Never had a problem with his system.

jstevens
09-11-2004, 02:17 PM
Lets see, pay $35K for a car that runs like crap, chip it so it runs properly and then the dealer wants to give you the shaft.
Good luck.
Based on my experience I will most likely buy cadillac next due to the fact that the LM dealer treats me as if I'm bothering them.
As far as pulling the chip, why should we have to make up for their mistakes. I have 4.10's so if I pull the chip, my speedo will be off.
I say screw'em and leave the chip in. Maybe they'll build a real car next time.

Sorry to vent just hate people getting bent out of shape. Jeez, this is basically a MachI engine, if its having failures there is no strong argument that the chip caused it.

jakdad
09-11-2004, 03:15 PM
Lets see, pay $35K for a car that runs like crap, chip it so it runs properly and then the dealer wants to give you the shaft.
Good luck.
Based on my experience I will most likely buy cadillac next due to the fact that the LM dealer treats me as if I'm bothering them.
As far as pulling the chip, why should we have to make up for their mistakes. I have 4.10's so if I pull the chip, my speedo will be off.
I say screw'em and leave the chip in. Maybe they'll build a real car next time.

Sorry to vent just hate people getting bent out of shape. Jeez, this is basically a MachI engine, if its having failures there is no strong argument that the chip caused it. Don't be in too much rush to buy GM. A friend of mine has been a GM service manager over thirty years. He told me that he voids warranties if there is any evidence of performance enhancement modifications. This is what they are schooled on. Anything such as traction bars, exhaust system changes, and any electronic alterations and GM doesnn't pay. Good luck.

SergntMac
09-11-2004, 05:21 PM
Jeez, this is basically a MachI engine, if its having failures there is no strong argument that the chip caused it.
Yep, it's the same engine, shared with the Aviator too. Methinks it is wise to drum up some 411 from those owners, and see what problems they have been having with this engine in their automobiles. Just a thought, may be some support there, maybe not, but surely worth the effort.

TripleTransAm
09-12-2004, 05:07 AM
Yep, it's the same engine, shared with the Aviator too. Methinks it is wise to drum up some 411 from those owners, and see what problems they have been having with this engine in their automobiles. Just a thought, may be some support there, maybe not, but surely worth the effort.


Absolutely great idea. It's easy to forget that this engine does see multiple applications.

Things to look for: how different are the details in each individual application?
Such as:
1) Stall speed. Any slight request for moderate acceleration in the MM and you get 2000+ RPM right off the bat... a steady foot will get you that held 2000 RPM right through 1st gear, and only when the TCC begins to modulate itself to 50% in 2nd do you see a dip under 2000 RPM, and then the "bog" immediately at 3rd to 1000 RPM (stock programming, of course). With modified programming, maybe it might see that 2000 RPM for much longer? Again, with the stock programming, more than moderate acceleration has the engine hanging in the 3000 RPM range, including the 2nd gear "lurch" during the TCC modulation. Does hanging at these higher RPMs create more localized heat in the questionable parts of the heads that have been previously identified here?

2) cooling system. Any remarkable difference between the applications? Did Ford spec a 'good' radiator for the Mustang, being a sporty car and all, and a 'heavy duty' cooling system for the Aviator because it's a big heavy sport ute, but leave the regular Grand Marquis / Crown Vic radiator in place for the Marauder? (hey, they cut corners on more important stuff, I wouldn't put this past them at this point).

3) engine bay clearance? I highly doubt this is an issue, but it isn't always about how much room is under a hood, but how it's laid out (as my cousin and I remarked yesterday on how easy it would be to slide a 454 into the engine bay of my cousin-in-law's 1979 Monza 2+2, even if it's such a small car). And besides, I haven't heard of any Mustangs slicing harnesses as if they were salami at a deli, so maybe things are a bit tight in that area and simple air cooling doesn't help?

4) Maybe it's just the Marauder's basic calibrations that plain result in hotter cylinders and the questionable ones just end up cooking? Perhaps not something that is normally chipped but maybe some lower level engine management? Did the Mach 1 and Aviator come with dual knock sensors for 2003, even though ours came with one?

Smokie
09-12-2004, 06:40 AM
Is the problem with the heads in the design ? Is the left bank and right bank milled differently to regulate water flow ?

If the problem is in the design, then every MM has a potential ticking time bomb because we all share the same design flaw, if the flaw relates to the driver side bank overheating then, the enviroment that the MM is placed in would play a role in the failures.

The hottest enviroments would be found in Florida, Texas, New Mexico, Arizona, California. Do we see a pattern of failures across this states ? If the problem is heat from a design flaw combined with enviromental factors then we should see a pattern of failures across these states.

I would suggest we should document all major engine failures by our members in a post that contains all relevant details about the failure and see what the results yield.

TripleTransAm
09-12-2004, 07:33 AM
I totally agree, Javier, but it *could* be a simple case of sloppy manufacturing tolerances causing some engines to be more prone to early failure (from either top end or bottom end). If this is the case, then the 'ticking time bomb' (nice play on words, btw) you refer to would be a truly random spread across the entire production run.

Nonetheless, I totally agree with this approach, and I'm surprised we haven't pursued it with more fervor prior to this thread.

As to the supposed head design problem, a quick summary of Jerry's report on the cooling issue goes as follows:
The coolant enters the block at the front of the engine, and must climb through the heads and out through the front of the engine. The entry point being up front, the natural tendency for coolant flow would be to head straight up and to the coolant return, somewhat neglecting the rear cylinders. The head gasket holes are therefore staggered in size such as to restrict flow to the front cylinders in the heads, which has the supposed effect of encouraging some more coolant flow towards the rear cylinders in the heads. Jerry's choice of words would seem to imply that this theory is 'supposed' to work and I don't get the feeling he is 100% convinced of it's total success in real world application, but that's something I'd want to discuss with the gentleman in person over a few beers at my expense.

Anyway, on Mustang DOHCs the heater core is fed by a hose out the back of the cylinder head on the passenger side. The coolant is then returned to the water pump under the intake manifold, and recirculated into the engine (ie. not cooled). This should provide two paths of exit out of the head, which will help the coolant's ability to rise up into the cylinder head at the rear of the engine on this side. However, the driver's side has no such exit at the back, and whatever coolant is coaxed up into the rear of the driver's side head has to then travel forward through the other cylinders' regions to exit the head at the front. Jerry claims this results in a slightly hotter driver's side head, and the lack of exit point at the back of the head makes it more difficult to coax fresh coolant up into that rear area. These are the cylinders that appear to be 'failing' on our motors.

Side note: Jerry also mentions that Marauders suffer from hot heads on BOTH sides because they grab their heater core coolant from up front, and hence both heads will have no exit points at the rear. So theoretically both heads should be much hotter at the rears, and I understand early Marauders did have a problem with passenger side heads as well, although these were addressed with revised castings. Now why is Ford unable to address this problem on the driver's side head as easily?

One other side note: The mention of the coolant path return from the heater core under the manifold makes me wonder if this is meant to pre-heat the intake air for cold-driveability. Jerry also mentions that the air flow in the DOHC heads is not perfect, and that there is a variation in air flow and efficiency along the ports. Looking at this photo of my disassembled engine, we see the coolant return line and how it is routed. The rear driver's side of the engine appears to be purposely avoided... are they trying to avoid pre-heating that intake port too much to avoid detonation? Is it a matter of extra air flow into that one cylinder that results in a slightly lean tendency back there?
http://www.tripletransam.com/mm/2003/DSCF7393.JPG

Your discussion of ambient temperatures has me also curious about whether there is a connection. One thing strikes me: my experience with Ford engines is limited but most of the cars I've worked on have limited coolant flow through the heater core unless the climate control temperature setting was selected accordingly. This avoided having a hot 'radiator' sitting so close to the passenger cabin and possibly negating the cooling capacity of the air conditioner (come to think of it, I don't think my non-AC '78 T/A has this feature, which is usually vacuum-controlled).

My point: where does the MM control this coolant flow, if at all? I would imagine it would restrict flow before the heater core, so perhaps those who live in climates not requiring frequent heater use might not find their under-intake area significantly warmed up by hot coolant flow through that return line? And perhaps might not see themselves faced with prematurely cooked driver's side heads? (I say prematurely, because I still believe the claims of the coolant flow design being poor).

And then there's the issue of green vs. orange coolant... etc. etc.