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View Full Version : LINE LOCK SYSTEM on my MM!



CRUZTAKER
09-16-2004, 12:50 PM
As originally discussed in THIS (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12189&highlight=LINE+LOCK) thread, there seemed to be an interest in this mod from a few folks.



I met a retired fellow at the track last night with a supercharged lightning and a Summit Racing line lock system.

He will be installing one on my MM in a few weeks.

There is really nothing to it, and a quick easy install, one small module in the engine bay, and re-routing one of the break lines from the master cylinder. The trick is...once installed, and one knows they are gonna use it, pull the fuse for the ABS system, and the computer will not try to take over.

Works incredibly well.

Total estimated cost = $105.00I ordered the HURST LINE LOCK AND INSTALL KIT from Summit Racing (http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=esearch.asp&N=110&Ntk=KeywordSearch&Ntt=hurst+line+lock+kit) today, and will do the install this weekend. There are other, cheaper kits, but I chose the best. Total shipped was $156.

Will post the results next week.

mpearce
09-16-2004, 02:10 PM
Good luck with that Barry! That Lightning was certianly impressive. Couldn't immagine that on a Marauder. Can't wait to see it on yours! Will you have it operational at Norwalk?

-Mat

Zack
09-16-2004, 07:49 PM
Yea, like YOU need it!

MENINBLK
09-16-2004, 08:04 PM
There is a problem with this...

Our Braking system provides Electronic Brake Force Distribution.
The EBFD acts like an electronic proportioning valve.
Without it, your brake pressure will not be applied evenly.

Pulling the fuse will cause your brakes to apply unevenly.
I suggest you try it off the track, and in a very large open area,
before you experience it at the end of the 1/4 mile with nowhere to go...

TooManyFords
09-17-2004, 05:29 AM
There should be NO problems with this mod.

Barry, do NOT pull any fuses. If you have traction control, turn it off.

The way a Line Lock works is by keeping the pressure to the front brake rotors -after- you have pressed hard on the pedal. Once you release the locks, the brakes operate NORMALLY with no interference.

Just don't turn them on while running down the track or you won't have front brakes! The car will never know they are there.

Now, we need pictures!!!

John

Dan
09-17-2004, 06:35 AM
All of my research on this mod has lead me to believe that you will need two line locks for your car.

Also, electric line locks are not designed to be left on for long periods or the solenoid will burn. Try to keep you LOCK time under 30 seconds.

Based on what TMF just said you might not want to turn them on without brake pressure, however, certain types of line lock units allow pressure to pass through IN A CERTAIN DIRECTION as a safety precaution. It would help to find out if yours has his safety feature.

Lastly, I am curious, from a research stanpoint, why you feel that the Hurst unit is the best? You obviously have certain criteria that are particular to you, what are they? I'll need to review my notes to see if I came up with the same coclusion as you did however, I don't think that I did.

-Dan

CRUZTAKER
09-17-2004, 09:18 AM
I will attempt to answer questions while I am on hold with the tech department. Fortunately, the Hurst kit is made by Mr. Gasket company that has tech offices right here in Cleveland, Ohio.

As far as I said, choosing the best....this is strictly word of mouth, and based on the historical perforfance of items made by the companies owned by the parent, Mr. Gasket. This particular kit (174-5000) is better for several reasons. First and foremost, it the only billit stainless body available in this application. It has a 1/100,000 of a second release time, it has an additional port for a bleeder or pressure guage, and is easily field servicable. It comes complete with wiring for a switch, and a large red bulb.

I will post further questions once I recieve answers.

And TMF....I'll try both applications as far as the fuse is concerned. The fellow with the Lightning has no issues braking at the track with the fuse out. But he did however have an issue when the fuse was in....cannot exactly remember what...but I believe he said the EEC tried to take over and apply brakes to the rears, or something to that extent.

BRB....

CRUZTAKER
09-17-2004, 09:45 AM
OK...just got off the phone.

First off, there isn't a company out there that will take the liability of suggesting that one needs to pull the ABS fuse to make their Line Loc system work on a car with ABS. They will however say that their (single) kit WILL work with some type of end user modifications. That mod being the removal of the ABS fuse so that not only the unit will work properly, but the ABS module won't freak out and perhaps incur damage of some sort.

Now then, there is another alternative. One need only buy TWO of these units (as previously posted), and put one on the left brake, and one on the right. In this scenario, the ABS fuse need not be removed. This is costlier, but indeed the perfect solution for full time ABS, and full time line loc availability.

I personally don't care for ABS, never have. I don't drive in the snow any longer, and I use extreme caution in the rain.

Maybe I'll buy another....not sure at the moment. Depends on how difficult it is to pull the fuse each time I go to the track.

I hope this completes this book....this mod is a DONE DEAL.:thinker:

CRUZTAKER
09-17-2004, 03:20 PM
It's going in Sunday. The fellow helping me do the install, Jerry (screen name WOLF), entered the Summit racing burnout contest last year and won.

Check out THIS (http://static.summitracing.com/global/video/tf03/flash_5burnout.htm) video, he's the second truck, the silver Lighting....hear the whine, gotta love it!

:burnout:

MERCMAN
09-17-2004, 04:51 PM
WOW!!! impressive!! Although I would not want to be the one to have to clean the rear quarters on that beast! :lol:

BillyGman
09-18-2004, 06:30 PM
. The fellow with the Lightning has no issues braking at the track with the fuse out. But he did however have an issue when the fuse was in....cannot exactly remember what...but I believe he said the EEC tried to take over and apply brakes to the rears, or something to that extent.

BRB....That's exactly what happened to me twice back in June at the race track. I made three 1/4 mile passes that day. And when I did the pre-race burnout for each of the last two runs, after spinning the tires for about 5 seconds, the tires just stopped spinning despite the fact that I still had my foot into the gas pedal, and had not let-up at all.I also still had my foot on the brake pedal too, and had the tires spinning well into second gear w/the speedometer reading about 70 MPH. And that did NOT occur during the burnout that I did for the first run of the day. So I think the EEC was momentarily changing the biased more towards the rear brakes to stop the tires from spinning. I don't know what else could've caused the tires to suddenly stop spinning like that. On all three burnouts, I just spun the tires for a split second as I walked the car through the waterbox to get the tires good and wet, and then after driving completely out of the waterbox, I then began the burnout. I'll tell ya, these hi-tech computer sysyems in cars these days just cause more problems than they're worth.:(

CRUZTAKER
09-18-2004, 07:06 PM
Oddly enough....the folks at Alternative Automotive (not specifically Lidio), told me NOT to pull the fuse.

Now I at phase one again as far as the fuse issue. I tried to call Lid, but no answer. I'll try again tomorrow.

The kit is going in regardless tomorrow afternoon...we'll see.

BTW: I have spun the wheels to 120 during the burnout before.....and yes, have experienced the odd feeling of the rears trying to lock up.

MENINBLK
09-18-2004, 07:29 PM
BTW: I have spun the wheels to 120 during the burnout before.....and yes, have experienced the odd feeling of the rears trying to lock up.

Is it the rear brakes applying more pressure, or the tires gripping more because they are getting warmer ?
You would think that as the tires get warmer, you would need to give more gas to keep them spinning at the same speed.

Why it happens later than earlier ?
Depending on the tires you use, if they are the stock KDWS, I have no clue.
But there are some tires that are made with multi-compounds.
As the tires wear, the characteristics change because of the
different compounds used at different tire tread depths.

BillyGman
09-19-2004, 12:29 AM
It has to be the brakes being applied harder by the EEC. I say this because if you have the wheels spinning very fast w/the front brakes applied solidly enough to keep the car in one place, then you're just not going to get any traction. So I just can't see the tires getting 100% traction all at once like that as long as the car is standing still and your foot is still into the gas pedal.

CRUZTAKER
09-19-2004, 01:08 PM
Well we tore into it today and discovered a few things.

The best place to 'splice' open and into the factory line is in two places.
The line we open up is the most forward braided line at the master cylinder a few inches past the braid, and again at the other end of that same line at the distribution block at the RF position. There, 3 inches past it's connection.

We then splice two new pieces in and bend the to meet the plugs on the Hurst solenoid in/out connections. Here is where the first issue happened. First off, our lines are metric, double flaired. The connections and parts, and lines with the Hurst are SAE. I had to buy a flairing tool. Then the the fittings wouldn't slide over our black metric brake lines. I had to run the drill press through all the fittings to widen them a tad so that they would slide over our lines. Done. Well....kinda....the flairing tool kept splitting our factory lines. DOH! It's an SAE flairing tool.

After reflairing the one end several times, now it's too short to meet the mounting location without extreme duress. Yup, you guessed it....that line leaks like a seive.

I need to start all over with a new factory line and cut this one a little longer than I did the first one.

Otherwise, the install will look sweet when complete. I am now dead in the water on a Sunday. Need to call the dealer Monday and get a new line to dice up. Also, have decided to let a brake shop up the road do it as I seem to be lacking the skills to do it.

I put a carpet tack in the line connection at the master cylinder, so I have rear brakes to get to the shop 1.5 miles up the road.

Errr.....:banghead:

BillyGman
09-19-2004, 01:13 PM
Barry, Summit racing sells a brake line adapter fitting kit for mounting Line Locks on late model Mustangs. So I'm sure that it can be used for Marauders. I'm also assuming that the adapter fittings are for metric brake lines.Here's the link. (BTW, if the link doesn't get you to the specific page, then the part # is HUU-5671516) if you order this from Summit today, you can have it by Tuesday, and it's $15.......

http://store.summitracing.com/default.asp?target=esearch.asp&N=110&Ntk=KeywordSearch&Ntt=Line+Lock+adapter+kit&x=9&y=9

CRUZTAKER
09-19-2004, 01:30 PM
Hey thanks man! The mechanic up the road mentioned such a fitting. Now it's just a case of getting the new line from the dealer...what the odds....it'll have to be special ordered Marauder specific part....if they even HAVE ONE!

BillyGman
09-19-2004, 01:38 PM
If it's just a line that you need w/nothing else on it, and the dealer doesn't have it, and can't get it for a week or so, then I would think that there's a speed shop around your area that caters to Mustang guys who would therefore have the same brake line. Just food for thought Barry.

CRUZTAKER
09-22-2004, 06:09 PM
The line lock is in and working well!!! :burnout:

I will post pics tomorrow, but fill in some voids now.

First: Our brake lines are armoured, and metric. Adapter fittings and special flaring tools are required.

Second: Only one line loc solenoid is required for operation.

Third: The ABS fuse does NOT need pulled. The ABS sensor and EEC have no clue the line loc is engaged as once you have pumped the brakes and pushed the special button, the foot is removed from the brake pedal....therefore no sensors have a clue the front brakes are locked as the the handshake via the oem brake pedal and sensors no longer exists.
*If you have traction control, it MUST be turned off.

Fourth: One needs not tap/cut into the factory brake line, just remove it, and use an american sae line in place of it, and use adapters to mate with our master cylinder and distribution box connections.

Fifth and final: The dealer won't take back a special order $80 MM brake line kit.:down:

BillyGman
09-22-2004, 11:11 PM
Barry, I once had a line lock on a 69 Roadrunner that I had, but I've never installed one before. So please explain something. You said that the factory stock metric brake line was replaced on your car w/a SAE brake line. But once that's done, do they have to cut that new line in order to tap into it for the Line Lock solenoid? And didn't they have to replace the lines for both the Left and righthand front brakes? One more question...... do our cars have a standard front/back split brake system, or is it a diagonal split where the left-front line is connected w/the right-rear, and the right-front to the left-rear?

MENINBLK
09-23-2004, 12:49 AM
do our cars have a standard front/back split brake system, or is it a diagonal split where the left-front line is connected w/the right-rear, and the right-front to the left-rear?

Our cars have a 4 channel ABS system, and in later vehicles ABS/Traction Control system.
This means that the Electronic Brake Force Distribution takes the place of the Proportioning valve,
and meters the brake pressure to each wheel independantly.

This allows 2 things.
Much more accurate control when ABS is engaged,
much faster response and control when Traction Control is engaged.
The pressure is applied to the wheel that needs it the most,
until the wheel begins to slip (braking) or applied when the wheel spins (traction control).

BillyGman
09-23-2004, 01:11 AM
I don't believe that what you're talkig about has anything to do w/my question. I'm refering to how the master cylinder, and how the brake lines are set-up( NOT about the ABS system). In most cars they are front/back. One hydraulic circuit operates the front brakes, and another the back brakes. But it's my understanding that some new cars have a hydraulic system which consists of one circuit of the front-right brake, together w/the left-rear, and another w/the front-left, tied into the right-rear. that is a "diaganol split" braking system as far as I know. The advantage being if one system gives up, you'll still atleast have one front brake that's operational.


So, my question stands, as do the other ones that I asked......thanks for trying though.

Bradley G
09-23-2004, 04:22 AM
I think what you are refering to is called "Dual diagnal braking"" Rt front and left rear on one line" and "lft. front and right rear on the other".this was made standard many years ago.This was to ensure the car would stop straight in the event one channel of the brakes failed.

CRUZTAKER
09-23-2004, 05:13 AM
So, my question stands, as do the other ones that I asked......thanks for trying though.I am certainly no mechanic, nor a good one to field this question. I can however find out.


do they have to cut that new line in order to tap into it for the Line Lock solenoid? And didn't they have to replace the lines for both the Left and righthand front brakes?In all actuallity, one needed only remove one OEM line, save it, and put a new one in it's place. I chose to cut mine in half in the middle, and run each cut end to the line loc solenoid. I wasn't sure if I could find fittings to mate with our master cylinder and dist. box openenings.

The pics will explain better. The only line in question is the the one forward most on the master cylinder....trace it yourselves, it goes to the dist. box. The dist. box is clearly etched near all 6 openinings. 4 on top, and two on the sides. It's very confusing at this point, as the line in question actually is plugged in the hole marked LF.

To the best of my reckoning, and this was learned thru trial and test....when I put a tack in the most forward brake line connection at the master cylinder to stop my leaks temporarily at the the new solenoid splice in, I lost both front brakes. The rears, coming off the most rearward brakeline on the master cylinder, worked fine.

So....it's easy to say, that the forward most M/C line controls the front(s) and the rear one controls the rear(s). How the distribution box separates it all is still confusing, as I said all the ports on it are etched indicating their designations, but a mere visual look at where the the lines come and go from the box still baffles me.:dunno:

All I can say is that it works! It's easy now as I was the guinnea pig.

SergntMac
09-23-2004, 08:09 AM
All I can say is that it works! It's easy now as I was the guinnea pig.
And thank you for that, Barry, a job well done. Though this isn't a mod I am considering, I appreciate the details and the brainstorming behind it all. Now, go clean the rubber off your roof...

BillyGman
09-23-2004, 01:58 PM
Barry, I want to echo MAC's words. Thanks for your efforts on this, and for all your replies.

CRUZTAKER
09-23-2004, 05:22 PM
(MORE)Pics in the gallery!
Bear in mind....it was my intention to use the OEM braided lines....things just didn't work out, and now I cannot afford to do it again. I'll be satisfied with what I got. If I had one more opportunity...I'd use the braided line.

The new lines were unpainted. So I prepped, primed, and painted them to match.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/503/627Lines_painted_black-med.jpg


http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/503/627Line_Loc_button_and_LED-med.jpg

BillyGman
09-24-2004, 01:09 AM
Also, electric line locks are not designed to be left on for long periods or the solenoid will burn. Try to keep you LOCK time under 30 seconds.

-Dan
I just want to point out here that the instructions included w/the Hurst Line Lock kit state that it can be used for up to 60 seconds.

CRUZTAKER
09-24-2004, 08:54 AM
I just want to point out here that the instructions included w/the Hurst Line Lock kit state that it can be used for up to 60 seconds.60 seconds and I'll start bringing down birds and squirrels!!!:hmmm:
I'll stick to 20 seconds...:P

BillyGman
09-24-2004, 09:25 AM
60 seconds and I'll start bringing down birds and squirrels!!!:hmmm:
I'll stick to 20 seconds...:P
bring em down Barry......you'll never have to worry about them messing up the paint on your car again. :up:

Haggis
09-24-2004, 09:31 AM
(MORE)Pics in the gallery!
Bear in mind....it was my intention to use the OEM braided lines....things just didn't work out, and now I cannot afford to do it again. I'll be satisfied with what I got. If I had one more opportunity...I'd use the braided line.

The new lines were unpainted. So I prepped, primed, and painted them to match.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/503/627Lines_painted_black-med.jpg


http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/503/627Line_Loc_button_and_LED-med.jpg

Looks good Barry, I don't believe it is a mod a will ever do. But you being one of the Burn-Out Kings on this site, hmmm....this just might make you the one and only Burn-Out King here. :burn:

BillyGman
09-24-2004, 09:35 AM
Looks good Barry, I don't believe it is a mod a will ever do. But you being one of the Burn-Out Kings on this site, hmmm....this just might make you the one and only Burn-Out King here. :burn:
I think you're trying to provoke me. :nono:

Haggis
09-24-2004, 09:52 AM
I think you're trying to provoke me. :nono:


WHOOOOO? Me? Not at all, I am just waiting for the burn-out competition at MVIII.

Go get 'em Billy. :burn:

BillyGman
09-24-2004, 10:56 AM
WHOOOOO? Me? Not at all, I am just waiting for the burn-out competition at MVIII.

Go get 'em Billy. :burn:
LOL.....that's easy for you to say.... this stuff gets expensive!!!! I'm taking tire donations.......(new tires only!!!!)

Bradley G
09-26-2004, 01:16 AM
BillyGman?.........Burnout contest can you say "ringer":burnout:

BillyGman
09-26-2004, 07:55 AM
BillyGman?.........Burnout contest can you say "ringer":burnout:
LOL....it's amazing how famous someone can get merely from a couple 15 second burnout videos. :D

Bradley G
09-27-2004, 05:11 AM
And I still play your video every once in a while........ Gets the jucies flowin!!
LOL....it's amazing how famous someone can get merely from a couple 15 second burnout videos. :D

CRUZTAKER
09-27-2004, 03:17 PM
Appears as though I need a video to compete with the G-MAN!

Hey Billy, whens the last time you had to wash rubber off your roof and decklid?:neener:

Bradley G
09-27-2004, 03:45 PM
Barry, when did you find the time to race BillyGman?? :poke:
Appears as though I need a video to compete with the G-MAN!

Hey Billy, whens the last time you had to wash rubber off your roof and decklid?:neener:

CRUZTAKER
09-27-2004, 06:06 PM
Errrr.....:banghead:


2005, it's on baby.......:sweat:

Bradley G
09-27-2004, 06:35 PM
I sense a possible grudge match here:high5:

BillyGman
09-28-2004, 02:17 AM
Appears as though I need a video to compete with the G-MAN!

Hey Billy, whens the last time you had to wash rubber off your roof and decklid?:neener:
Really Barry, U have to stop allowing your friends w/the Monster trucks drive over your Marauder.......... that must be the reason why you've secretly installed the roll cage, right?

BillyGman
09-28-2004, 02:19 AM
Barry, when did you find the time to race BillyGman?? :poke:

AAAAAHHHHH, some reality for Barry sets in here.......:bricks:

martyo
09-28-2004, 02:24 AM
AAAAAHHHHH, some reality for Barry sets in here.......:bricks:

I sure wish I was allowed to comment here. This, of course, is just my opinion.

BillyGman
09-28-2004, 02:37 AM
I sure wish I was allowed to comment here. This, of course, is just my opinion.
you're not allowed to comment yet since you still have a 13.5 sec ET in your sig.........