Plugs and stat

[Bradley G]

I'm having 4:10's done this week should I get colder plugs and stat with the gear and SCT 9100? any gains or only protection against detonating?I've heard no evidence of detonation

[jstevens]

I put in the chip and 4.10's.
Did not change plugs or stat as I don't believe there'd be that big of a gain or they wouldn't make that much difference. Of course, thats IMHO.

[bigslim]

I put in the chip and 4.10's.
Did not change plugs or stat as I don't believe there'd be that big of a gain or they wouldn't make that much difference. Of course, thats IMHO.
Ditto what he said!!

[Smokie]

I think that plugs and stat fall under the theory category.

There is no data that proves or shows an improvement.
I believe the intake spacer also has no documented gains.

However if anyone has data that shows the above mentioned produce gains that can be measured separately...I'm listening.

[SergntMac]

I think that plugs and stat fall under the theory category. There is no data that proves or shows an improvement.
I believe the intake spacer also has no documented gains. However if anyone has data that shows the above mentioned produce gains that can be measured separately...I'm listening.
Two years ago, I did exactly that, my own personal research of the claims over Denso IT-20 (for N/A cars) plugs and the NAPA #109 180 degree stat. I did this independently, without support or influence from supporting vendors. I dyno tested each mod, and the short story is that the power gains were single digit.

At one time, "plugs and stat" worked to round out what was then a rather generic chip program that was all we had to work with. But, even my SOTP meter told me that running just a few degrees cooler, and optimizing that cooling with a cleaner combustion burn from colder plugs, made some difference in the low end grunt. Minor, but present. Maybe I got four feet of squeal rather than two...Yawn.

However, since then, we have advanced so far, and with so many more options available today, I cannot say the end result of stat/plug mods cannot be obtained in another manner today, and surely not with an '04. The tranny gear changes and torque converter improvements in the '04 alone, seem to wipe out the benefits of the "stat/plug" mod, Hell, just the advent of live dyno tuning alone, could effectively consume all the notable benefits of these two mods.

Nonetheless, I stand by them today. I run a 180 stat and Denso IT-22 plugs in my Vortech blown MM, and I am quite pleased with my low end grunt. The Pirelli Tire folks are likewise pleased, but many others are quite displeased too.

Bang for the buck is acceptable on these mods, if you have an '03. 100 bucks for plugs and stat, another 80 bucks for the intake spacer, and you may buy yourself a total of 10 RWHP and 10 RWTQ. Insignificant, unless you're are stalled at 290. BTW, I am just finishing up on an intake upgrade that includes more 411 on the intake spacer, but I'm not finished with the research just yet. All in all, this exploration didn't work out to my expectations, but I'm not totally disappointed either.

More later, hope this helps until then...

[Bradley G]

Thanks for the info guys,If I understood correctly Mac, '04 no gain w/ plgs stat & spacer. 'o3 slight gain from these same mods. I understand the trans is improved on '04 but how is it that 03's benifit from running cooler and 04's do not .Is it the Knock sensors that the 04's have?

[Smokie]

As dyno runs have become more prevalent, the gains from modest modifications become in my opinion harder to document separately.

Example: Recently I had a dyno session that included 3 runs.
The HP spread was 263 to 267.
The TQ spread was 287 to 294.

So exact same car, same dyno and conditions. 4 horses and 7 foot pounds to play with.

This is why I think it is difficult to prove or disprove the effects of small modifications...I do believe in the cumulitive effect theory. But only up to a certain point.

Edit: The TQ spread should have read 284 to 294, working from memory sometimes produces mistakes.:whistle:

[Bradley G]

The variance may be explained by engine temperature? no?I noticed while doing 1320 a couple times fist run was the fastest .A hot lap was good for as much as -.5 ET.I would think the engine develops a little less power Hot. Was your highest #'s the first pull?"Cumulitive effect theory" Some mods enhance oneanother?
As dyno runs have become more prevalent, the gains from modest modifications become in my opinion harder to document separately.

Example: Recently I had a dyno session that included 3 runs.
The HP spread was 263 to 267.
The TQ spread was 287 to 294.

So exact same car, same dyno and conditions. 4 horses and 7 foot pounds to play with.

This is why I think it is difficult to prove or disprove the effects of small modifications...I do believe in the cumulitive effect theory. But only up to a certain point.

[SergntMac]

If I understood correctly Mac, '04 no gain w/ plugs stat & spacer. '03 slight gain from these same mods. I understand the trans is improved on '04 but how is it that '03's benefit from running cooler and 04's do not. Is it the Knock sensors that the 04's have?

The variance may be explained by engine temperature? no? I noticed while doing 1320 a couple times fist run was the fastest .A hot lap was good for as much as -.5 ET. I would think the engine develops a little less power Hot. Was your highest #'s the first pull? "Cumulitive effect theory" Some mods enhance one another?
Well, not exactly, Bradley, generally speaking, all mods compliment each other. But, not all mods will show new power on a dyno, or, in your "seat-of-the pants" impression. An '04 may indeed improve from cooler stat and plugs, I don't think any '04 owners have opted to take a peek. However, with having a bit more low end grunt over the '03 anyway, you may have to work harder, or look closer to see that.

A dyno is only a test tool, a measurement device that simulates road conditions for tuning. The car should behave quite differently on the race track/highway. Case in point was my early testing of the PI Stallion torque converter. I found single digit RW performance on the dyno, but no one here will argue that it's not worth the investment in moving the car down the track/road. Some have seen as much as a .5 improvement in ETs, but dyno results were very mild. Why? On a dyno, you're not realling moving the car, you just moving the dyno drums, a static 3400 pounds of dead weight. The Stallion shines when it's got some real work to do. Moreover, 4:10s won't show any difference on a dyno, but the street will prove it all.

In the project I'm still working on, my collective RW numbers are down ever so slightly, however, I see 7 RWHP and 12 RWTQ gains inside my power band just before 1-2 and 2-3 shifts. I'm not done yet, but I am sure it will be a hard sell to explain that the cumulative numbers will drop, but the power will be improved. This is the problem of using dynos to prove anything, and adhering to that proof.

I continue to use the 180 degree stat and Denso IT-22 plugs (for S/C) because I believe they contribute to better combustion of the wide range of fuel we have to deal with. I believe stable engine temps are a key to reliable tuning that duplicates performance time after time. Whether I'm on the dyno, running down the track, or crusing cross country, my engine stays at 183-185 degrees I can bank on it. Likewise my IAT is stable at 10 degrees under outside air, and the Densos provid unquestionable reliable spark. I want consistency over bursts of energy or tempermental behavior. Moreover, when the outside temps drop, I'm running a tad rich, but that's better than running lean on a hot day.

The manner in which you pose your question leads me to believe that you're looking for a hard "yes/no" on these mods, Bradley, and I don't believe that's possible. Will a solid "maybe" do? Likewise, is the intake spacer question, it may show satisfactory "bang for the buck" up here in the cooler midwest, and much less performance in the southern states where ambient air is generally warmer and wetter.

Here's another short but informative dyno story. Last August '03, Zack and I hosted a dyno tune day at Mike's High Speed Performance. The best results of the day were on mercman's '03, a relatively bone stock car that day. AIRI, Dan picked up over 40 RWHP from a dyno tune, better resuls than anyone there that day. Why? Don't really know, all we could figure was that he trucked up a decent tank of 94 octane gas from Indy, gas not subject to all the BS Chicagoland gas has to deal with due to local pollution laws...Go figure?

Knock sensors...Yeah, I can feel them working. If a knock sensor's job it to warn of detonation and direct the EEC to retune AFR and spark on the fly, having two of them doubles that effort. This is where a side by side heads up race may go to an '03, but with some added risk too.

Just my .02C...Hope this helps.

[MAD-3R]

::snip::
I believe the intake spacer also has no documented gains.

However if anyone has data that shows the above mentioned produce gains that can be measured separately...I'm listening.


Smokie, your wish is my command

Review of spacer (http://mach1review.com/PHPSpacerReview.html)

[Smokie]

Hey Bradley, in regards to the order of my runs and results.

1st run: HP 264.3 Torque 289.8 at 4:13:54 PM
2nd run:HP 267.6 Torque 294.1 at 4:18:36 PM
3rd run: HP 262.9 Torque 284.3 at 4:19:04 PM

Sarge, Good info there, I always thought the stat and cooler plugs were to add a little cushion of safety against detonation.

Mad3R, Thank you so much, I feel better knowing there is a modest gain, I guess due to the weight of our cars I don't feel it...but it's good to know is there.

[Bradley G]

Thanks men, You guys are the best! mac!.....you are un -believable I'd be up all night typing a post like that!:bows:

[SergntMac]

Smokie, your wish is my command
Review of spacer (http://mach1review.com/PHPSpacerReview.html)
Thanks Phil, I really appreciate getting to read this article. Nice to see similar results from similar testing. For 80 bucks, the gains from the spacer are very respectable, and this is how a reliable repeat performer gets built, a mod at a time. My advice to any asking, is spend the 80 bucks, you will feel it.

I also noted in this article that researchers were likewise concerned about the low end torque loss from exhaust upgrades on a N/A car. Two years ago, we here worried about this ourselves. The Sean Hyland headers (Kooks) were one of the very first mods for the MM to emerge, and the general think way back then was that Hyland's exhaust kit (close to 2K in cost) wasn't worth the loss of our precious low end torque. But, as I said ^ there, lot's of things have changed in the last two years.

Sarge, Good info there, I always thought the stat and cooler plugs were to add a little cushion of safety against detonation.
Well, they are that too, Javier. Cooling the engine temps and spark, even in this small way, does push us back from that evil detonation threshold. The cooler we can run our MMs, the cooler we will run when we run them hard. It's not "either-or," but more a little bit of both.

[MENINBLK]

Since this is a NEW THREAD,
I thought I'd add some very INTERESTING info that I found out on the SPEED channel this past week.

There is a THERMOSTAT made by a company called Motorad.
It is a FAIL-SAFE thermostat.
FAIL-SAFE meaning that when it fails, it fails in the OPEN position, NOT IN THE CLOSED POSITION !!!

Here is a site for this information...
http://www.motoradusa.com/products/failsafethermo/

[Bowtie]

I would advise against platinum-tipped plugs for any high performance application. At 25k miles (prior to any N2O use), 5 out of 8 of my OEM plugs were missing the platinum pucks from the ground electrode. Admittedly, the car had about 100 dragstrip runs and generally some heavy use, but was well-tuned, not running lean, nor under detonation - the same type of use I'm sure many of your cars get. I don't know about you, but I do NOT like the idea of a hard little divit like that bouncing through my engine!
I assume the dissimilar expansion rates of the platinum versus the electrode material cause the tips to pop off under high load/heat conditions.
Also, platinum is a poor heat conductor, and consequently the tip can become a little glow plug and promote detonation under hard use.
I'm unfamiliar with the Denso plugs mentioned above, but highly recommend any copper plug such as NGK's. I run TR6's (one heat range colder than stock) for the nitrous and would choose the TR5 or TR55 for strictly NA applications (part numbers not necessarily applicable to the MM engine)

[Bradley G]

Though the engine we have has Failsafe cooling system every little bit helps!Anyone call for $$ thanks MENINBLK
Since this is a NEW THREAD,
I thought I'd add some very INTERESTING info that I found out on the SPEED channel this past week.

There is a THERMOSTAT made by a company called Motorad.
It is a FAIL-SAFE thermostat.
FAIL-SAFE meaning that when it fails, it fails in the OPEN position, NOT IN THE CLOSED POSITION !!!

Here is a site for this information...
http://www.motoradusa.com/products/failsafethermo/

[Bradley G]

Thanks Bowtie,I appreciate your info even form a "non-marotter lover"I talked to a SS guy at a event a couple weekends ago (BAD Bodies) he said the same thing about his plugs. He also said 110 octane fuel didn't help a mostly stock SS either.
I would advise against platinum-tipped plugs for any high performance application. At 25k miles (prior to any N2O use), 5 out of 8 of my OEM plugs were missing the platinum pucks from the ground electrode. Admittedly, the car had about 100 dragstrip runs and generally some heavy use, but was well-tuned, not running lean, nor under detonation - the same type of use I'm sure many of your cars get. I don't know about you, but I do NOT like the idea of a hard little divit like that bouncing through my engine!
I assume the dissimilar expansion rates of the platinum versus the electrode material cause the tips to pop off under high load/heat conditions.
Also, platinum is a poor heat conductor, and consequently the tip can become a little glow plug and promote detonation under hard use.
I'm unfamiliar with the Denso plugs mentioned above, but highly recommend any copper plug such as NGK's. I run TR6's (one heat range colder than stock) for the nitrous and would choose the TR5 or TR55 for strictly NA applications (part numbers not necessarily applicable to the MM engine)