NEW Locking header bolts:

[BillyGman]

here's a link to a new product (atleast new to me) that is an alternative to the Stage 8 Locking header bolts that I've used on my Kooks headers. The Stage 8 ones work fine, but these new "Split-Lock" header bolts look like they would be a whole lot easier to install than the Stage 8 bolts were, and also a lot easier to remove if you ever had to. Incase there's anyone here who is either planning on a set of headers in the future, or who doesn't currently have locking bolts on their headers now, I'd suggest that you use these. otherwise, you'll likely be hearing header gasket leaks in the near future.....


http://www.go-breslin.com/text.html

[David Morton]

Looks like they might do damage to the threads in my aluminum heads. Maybe even crack them.

I'll go for the double-washer-yoke-style-bend-ears-over-the-bolt type as bling is only a concern for me while I'm driving the car. What's under the hood is secret agent stuff and can look like Goober Pyle worked on it for all I care as long as it gets the job done.

[BillyGman]

Looks like they might do damage to the threads in my aluminum heads. Maybe even crack them.

.
first of all, this has nothing to do w/bling. K? These are for preventing header gasket leaks due to the bolts backing off from vibration which is common w/header bolts. Furthermore, "crack the heads"? No way. If you take the time to go to the site and click on the "Instructions" tab, then you'll notice that the set pins get torqued to only 72 inch/LBS (6 FT/LBS). That will NOT crack aluminum heads. Not even close.

[Bowtie]

Some of you know this already, but since the MM is the first experience for many in the world of "modding":
Don't let any locking type header bolt lull you into a false sense of security.
I would still advise retorquing the header bolts several time after each heat cycle as the gaskets compress to their eventual state. If not, it's likely you'll eventually get some leakage even though those bolts will APPARENTLY be nice and snug ;)
I've run two types of headers on my car, have never used locking bolts, and have had zero leaks. The first set, I used the thin graphite-type gaskets, which had almost no relaxation even on the first check after heat cycling. I probably would have lucked out that time using locking bolts and not re-torquing them.
The second set, I used some very thick asbestos-looking gaskets that came with the headers. Failure to re-torque these would have been a huge mistake. Over 3 or 4 heat cycles, I would guess I put an additional turn on each of the bolts! However; since then, on each check, they have remained perfectly tight.
In summary, for myself, I don't see any benefit to the locking header bolts.
"Your results may vary................."

[Bradley G]

This retorque is only required W/ headers right? stock is not going to loosin over time W/ change in heat cycles?

[BillyGman]

Bowtie, that's some thought provoking info, and I too have had to re-tighten header bolts on other cars that I had when I didn't use the locking header bolts. However, how do we know that the reason for the bolts having to get re-tightened wasn't simply because they were infact backing-off because of vibration? I think that this can be the answer. But as much as you and some others might want to debate this, I guess the real proof is in the putting. So we will see if my headers will lend up leaking or not w/those Stage 8 locking header bolts I've installed. So far, I've put 10,000 miles on my car since I've installed the headers as well as the locking header bolts, and I've had ZERO Leaks.

[Bowtie]

This retorque is only required W/ headers right? stock is not going to loosin over time W/ change in heat cycles?Yep, you're probably safe. For production, they have to assume nobody's going to ever check them.

[Bowtie]

...... how do we know that the reason for the bolts having to get re-tightened wasn't simply because they were infact backing-off because of vibration? .......The fact that they never lost preload after the initial few heat cycles makes me believe it was gasket compression and not vibration.
If you're using the thinner graphite style gaskets, like on my first set of headers, then you probably won't see any bolt preload loss, locking bolts or not.
I'm not knocking the locking header bolts at all. They're definitely added insurance. The point I wanted to make is that they don't relieve you of your "duty" to check the bolt preload after the first few heat cycles.
Just knowing the headers are not leaking today is not good enough for me. I want to know the bolts are TIGHT, so I can have some confidence I'll have no leaks a year from now ;)

Pat

[BillyGman]

So you're claiming that the thicker composite header gaskets like the # 1410 Felpro headr gaskets will shring after merely one or two heat cycles? I find that hard to believe. And the fact is, that on my Vette, those are what i used, and it was only after two days of driving that i had found that some of the header bolts were loose. Would a major gasket company like Felpro manufacture and sell gaskets specifically for headers that shrink from heat that easily and quickly? again, i find this hard to believe, and I tend to think that it was the bolts backing-off because of vibration. because header walls are thinner than exhaust manifold walls, they vibrate more. It isn't a vibration that you can hear, but one that causes header bolts to walk. And that's precisely the reason why atleast two different companies have developed locking header bolts.

[Bowtie]

Billy, The thick gaskets I used with my second set of headers were not Felpro. I have no idea what brand they were. They were supplied by the guy I got the Tri-Y headers from and are at least 1/8" thick.
I can't see any reason why vibration would loosen the bolts during the first few drive cycles and then never again over years of use, so I'll stick to my theory that gasket relaxation causes the preload loss. Ever notice what the factory uses for manifold gaskets to eliminate this concern? On my car, it was a solid sheetmetal shim! With headers, unless you had a 1" thick flange machined perfectly flat, that just isn't an option; thus, we have to live with compressible gaskets.

Pat

[David Morton]

first of all, this has nothing to do w/bling. K? These are for preventing header gasket leaks due to the bolts backing off from vibration which is common w/header bolts. Furthermore, "crack the heads"? No way. If you take the time to go to the site and click on the "Instructions" tab, then you'll notice that the set pins get torqued to only 72 inch/LBS (6 FT/LBS). That will NOT crack aluminum heads. Not even close.I have no doubt 6 ft. lbs of torque on a bolt would be safe, but this "set pin" is spreading the split end of a hollow bolt and who knows how much pressure that is exerting on the head. And this is purely an outward force, not tending to strip threads, but instead tending to split the hole along whatever lines of force the bolt winds up in in it's final orientation. I meant bling because it's the only reason I can see why one would use this type over the good old horsehoe shape with tabs that bend over the bolt. And if you really want to prove the bolt is vibrating out and not stretching or compressing the gasket, mark the bolts!

Lastly I want to put in a caveat about installing iron alloy bolts into aluminum without oil or anti-seize compound on the threads, especially in a place where water is going to intrude. You might be able to get away with it on spark plug holes as long as you let the head cool off stone cold before you remove the plug, but on exhaust manifold holes, I would sure want to keep my threads from corroding and bonding onto the bolts, by using Anti-Seize (R) compound on the threads. I've used it on spark plugs and manifold bolts for years and never had one back out of it's threads by itself. And I can change or check a spark plug on a hot head and not worry about coming out with a plug that has a spiral of aluminum, the threads of the plug hole, on it. (OUCH!)

[Bowtie]

..... and it was only after two days of driving that i had found that some of the header bolts were loose. Would a major gasket company like Felpro manufacture and sell gaskets specifically for headers that shrink from heat that easily and quickly? .....Yes, they would, and they do! They also cover themselves in the product info by recommending that you check/retorque the bolts after the first several hours of use.
And ......skeptic nature REALLY coming out here!.......companies develop and sell locking header bolts because..........drum roll please........
.....People will BUY them ! :surprise:

[Joe Walsh]

I re-used the OEM laminated (S.S.?) metal exhaust gaskets when I installed my Kooks Headers rather than the 'Thermoseal' gaskets supplied with the headers and have had NO problems with loosening bolts/exhaust leaks.
The OEM gaskets looked great and were in A-1 condition when I removed the stock manifolds....

[BillyGman]

WOW!! There's just too many misconceptions coming out here in this thread for me to even care to deal with. Water going through the exhaust bolt holes on the head? (you don't know what you're talking about)..... Aluminum heads cracking from the force of a mere 6 FT/LBS?? Headers not causing vibration? Antiseize compound mandatory for installing STAINLESS steel bolts into aluminum? Wrong, on all accounts. There were a number of engines with exhaust manifolds that did not get steel shimmed gaskets, and yet the mounting bolts did NOT have to be re-tightened. So if the gasket shrinkage from non-metalic gaskets were causing the pre-load on header bolts to disappear, instead of it being vibrations of the headers, then why is it that you don't have a need to re-tighten bolts on a exhaust manifolds that have non-metalic gaskets under them? I'll tell you why, because as I've already stated, the exhaust manifold walls are much thicker than header tube walls are and therefore will NOT vibrate like header walls will.


I'm tired of this entire debate. I don't mind people offering their opinion even if it opposes my own. But I think you guys are overlooking the fact that I simply started this thread to let those who DO want headers on their marauders, and who DO opt for locking header bolts to know that the Stage 8 bolts aren't the only way to go. If you don't want to use them, then you don't have to. And again I have to repeat myself by explaining that NO David, the only advantage to these bolts are NOT "bling". The advantage that these have over the Stage 8 bolts is that they will be easier to install. But ofcourse you wouldn't know that since you didn't install locking header bolts on your Marauder headers like I did. Did you? Infact I wonder if you even have headers on your Marauder at all, or if you even plan on getting them. Because if you don't, then your debate here is for nothing anyway, and simply arises from lack of experience when it comes to installing headers on a Marauder yourself. I can assure you that the header installation on our cars is like no other car that I've installed headers on myself in the past.

And Pat what you're overlooking is the fact that there is no way on this earth that you would ever be able to use a torque wrench or even a standard ratchet on any more than half of the header bolts on many cars, but especially on a Marauder, since there isn't even enough room to get a socket on them. Infact almost half of the header bolts on my Marauder, I had to tighten w/an open ended wrench. I couldn't even get the boxed end on the boltheads because it's so tight in there. Infact it's so tight in there that I wasn't even able to use anything but a very short wrench which a lot of torque cannot be developed with. So many of the header bolts on a Marauder probably end up w/less than the 25-30 ft/LBS spec on them, therefore that alone can cause them to loosen if they're not locked in some way, let alone from header vibration. And the idea about putting a "mark" on the header bolts to see if they've moved sounds like a great idea, except for one thing. On a Marauder, there are a number of the header bolts that you can't even see all of the bolt heads on once they're installed. Again, it's that tight in there. So in this thread here we have a bunch of guys talking theories about Marauder header bolts who haven't even installed headers on a Marauder themselves,(with the exception of Joe) and yet they all want to challenge one of us who has.

But the bottom line here is that I don't really give a rip about what you guys use on your Marauders, or if you even have headers or not, or in the case of one of you, if you even have a Marauder or not. The fact remains that I simply started this thread to let those of us who DO have Marauders, and who DO have headers for those Marauders, and who DO perfromthe work themselves, that THEY have an alternative for locking header bolts if THEY so choose to use them as I have. And you guys can go ahead and debate their use all you want, but since this thread was intended for those who do have interest in Marauder headers, then debate all you want.The fact remains that most of you don't even have headers on your Marauders, one of you has never even worked on a Marauder, and atleast two of you have never even installed headers (it's pretty obvious). I'm done w/this thread.

[Bowtie]

....
And Pat what you're overlooking is the fact that there is no way on this earth that you would ever be able to use a torque wrench ....My bad; I should have said "tighten" and not "torque".
Sorry you had to waste a whole paragraph educating everybody on that one:rolleyes:
One important thing I failed to mention about the difference between header flanges and manifolds. Those who understand bolted joint designs will know what I'm talking about. The thickness of the manifold results in MUCH greater bolt stretch than the typical 1/4" or 3/8" header flange, given the same applied torque. This makes the manifold joint much more forgiving of a .010 or .020 relaxation in gasket thickness, whereas that .010 or 020 can be enough to entirely relax the preload on bolt free length that spans less than 1/2" on the joint with the header flange.
No need to get upset about facts being pointed out.
Nothing wrong with locking header bolts.
Whoever uses them should just understand they are not the be all and end all of header leaks.

Pat

[Joe Walsh]

BillyGman, For what its worth....Thank You for the information on the Breslin locking bolts. (I've saved the Breslin home page to my 'favorites' list for future reference) I re-used the OEM bolts because they were so hard to get to.. I didn't even think that a locking style bolt was made for the Marauder's DOHC. Later I read on this site* of the 'Stage 8' bolts and how difficult it is to install them. Now that I'm in the process of pulling and rebuilding my engine (Oil Pump grenaded @ 6200 rpm) I am going to check out the Breslin style locking bolts as a possible addition to my Kook's headers. I'm still going to re-use the OEM steel exhaust gaskets.

* probably read it on one of your posts/threads!
Joe

[BillyGman]

okay Joe. You're welcome. I haven't any problem at all if you don't want to use this product. I mean after all, it IS your car. I was just trying to be of help to others. :type:

[David Morton]

Sorry you seem to think I'm "debating", Billy. I'm just an old school ASE Master technician and this bolt is like nothing I've ever seen in a bolt before. Spreading the bolt open from the inside to expand the size of the bolt so it will press against the boss seems a good idea as long as it doesn't cause a crack to develop in the boss. That's all I'm saying.

I respect your opinions and am green with envy at the mods you've made. I plan to follow your advice and get the Trilogy first in the "Giddy-yap" category, right after I get the "Whoa-nelly" category buttoned up. Headers may not be in the final version of Quicksilver because I don't like the extra engine compartment noise headers make, but if you were to say those Kooks aren't noticeably louder than stock manifolds, and if by the time I get to that place in her build-up you haven't had any cracks from those experimental bolts in your heads, I will probably follow your advice there too.

I still have those burnout videos you posted in my Marauder folder and trot them out about once a week. You da man! I ain't dissin' you. If your mad at me your mad at an admirer.

[BillyGman]

Okay David. I appreciate your explanation guy. And thankyou for the compliments too. By making mention of these new type of bolts, my only motive was to possibly save someone the extra work that I went through getting all the clips on the "Stage 8" brand locking bolts that I used. I mean, I'm not going to claim to be one of the fastest workers around, but working on cars isn't by any means foreign to me, and installing the Stage 8 locking header bolts took me a full 8 hours!!! I mean talk about a test of patience and perserverence???


A few of the boltheads I couldn't even see, and I had to work like a blind man to get the locking clips in. It was like performing surgery!!! For a couple of the boltheads, I had to use a mirror to get the locking clips in. And even though I was using a lift, I had to twist and bend into the most awkward contortions you can imagine. I don't mean to sound perverse, but after the first few hours of that, I felt like I was making Love to that engine block!!!!

So I don't think that I'd ever go back in there to remove those Stage 8 bolts just to install the ones I've pointed out here in this thread, but they just look to me like they would save some of the rest of the Do-IT-Yourself guys some hassle that I had to go through. I'm sure that most guys who work on cars on a daily basis, will be able to get the job done quicker than I did, since I'm not a car mechanic by trade. I'm a helicopter mechanic. But I can assure you, that they will still have to earn it.

But David, as far the Kooks headers themselves, as much as I luv them, I wouldn't try and tell you that they don't make more noise than the stock exhaust manifolds do, because that wouldn't be truthfull of me to tell you that. Infact, that IS one of the reasons why I happen to like headers. You can hear the exhaust better. The header primary tube walls are thinner than exhaust manifold walls, so it's just a given that you'll be able to hear the exhaust note a little easier right through the tubing walls. But w/the right choice of mufflers, you would still be able to control a good portion of the noise. I like the 18" magnaflows, but that's simply a matter of preference, and you and some other members here might not like them. And as I'm sure that you already know, there's no right or wrong when it comes to how loud, or how quiet you want your car to be. It's all in what YOU want.

[JohnE]

I bought a set of Stage 8 header bolts through Ford Racing (good price). Installed new headers with them. Took much more time than sock studs. And header bolts need to be retorqued a few miles later again. So, you'll have to go through pulling the tabs and reinstalling them again.

My first set of FRRP headers warped, with the Stage 8 bolts installed. I tried several experiments to stop them from leaking, including different types of gaskets. So when I installed a new set of headers, had more than my share of fun with these bolts. The fact that finally got me to switch back to stock studs is that the stockers are longer and have more threads engaged in the AL heads.

John

[Bowtie]

JohnE, I LIKE your car! That's my idea of a sleeper!

[BillyGman]

well John, I didn't have to re-torque the header bolts on my car, and like I've previous stated in this thread, I have put 10,000 miles on my Marauder since I've installed the headers w/the Stage 8 bolts, and they've never leaked yet. And like I've also PREVIOUSLY STATED, there have been many engines that all come from the factory w/exhaust manifolds w/a number of different types of gaskets (NOT just steel shim ones), and the mounting bolts that fasten the exhaust manifolds do NOT have to be re-torqued by the dealer nor by the new customer in order to avoid exhaust leaks. And let me also add that many exhaust manfolds do NOT have studs, but are mounted w/bolts. So why don't they have to be re-torqued? It's because the exhaust manifolds as well as their flanges are thicker than some of the cheaper headers.

It sounds to me that your choice of headers was in question, and not the bolts that were used. Some headers have flanges that are much too thin, and they end up warping, and that will cause leaks no matter what bolts are used. So you can't expect the Stage 8 bolts to work a miracle when the header flanges warped. That's an entirely different problem that has nothing to do w/this topic of header bolts.


The Kooks headers have nice thick flanges, and so they aren't some of those that will warp. Purchase headers that are well made, and you won't have to worry about leaks due to warpage.

[Zack]

Hey Ive got a quick answer...
We have a 4.6L, smooth running, non cammed engine that turns 6000 rpms.
And on top of that the factory uses studs and nuts.
Do not waste your time and money on locking fasteners, they are worthless for our application.
Sorry Billy. We can still be friends

[Joe Walsh]

Now wait a second Zack....we've all SEEN Billy's Burnout videos...I'd use locking header bolts if I was Billy!!!! :D

[BillyGman]

Zack, the "factory" also uses exhaust manifolds too. I know that studs w/nuts can enable you to apply better clamping force, but with headers it doesn't matter since you cannot get in there w/a torque wrench on atleast half of the nuts anyway. And nuts can back off of studs just as the non-locking bolts can back out of threaded holes. But I still yield to your input here Zack. So I guess we should just agree to disargee on this topic. Like I said, I just started the thread to inform people of their choices. No need for a big debate here. If you don't want the Locking header bolts, it's okay. It's simply an option that we have. And one that I've chosen for reasons previously mentioned. I just hope this info helps someone out. That's all.

[Zack]

Billy, I am still inclined to disagree.
If you look good and hard at the factory nuts, you will notice they are irregularly shaped; i.e. not round. They are lock nuts.
Ive had no problems so far with the factory setup. I just cant imagine the difficulty installing locking fasteners. Some things I just will not tackle, this being one of them.
If you installed them, I commend you.

[BillyGman]

Billy, I am still inclined to disagree.
If you look good and hard at the factory nuts, you will notice they are irregularly shaped; i.e. not round. They are lock nuts.
Ive had no problems so far with the factory setup. I just cant imagine the difficulty installing locking fasteners. Some things I just will not tackle, this being one of them.
If you installed them, I commend you.
I didn't notice that about the factory nuts, but I'll take your word on that one Zack. What I did notice though was some type of white caked on powdery type stuff on the threads which is usually what Loc-tite threadlocker turns to. So it looked to me like some type of threadlocker was used at the factory which kind of surprises me. But anyway, yes, you're correct that it was very challenging to get those Stage 8 bolts on.