Marauder Has Good Showing @Drag Strip

[sailsmen]

Went to No Problem Raceway tonite. Hot 87* and humid 80%.

In the times trials ran 14.416, 14.315 & 14.334 w/ RT's of .222, .204 & .073. Set the dial in to 14.31.

First race againest a 396 1969? Camaro with drag radials. my R/T was .173 and ET 14.46.

Second race againest a pick up. He way red lited so I took my time crossing the starting line, 14.301 w/ RT .383.

This was a mistake be cause for the next round I being the one with the narrowest win went againest the one with the greatest win, LS-1 TransAm and he also got to pick his lane. He picked the right lane.

When I do time trials I usually go in the right lane because my left eye has better vision. Now I will split for equal starts in each to make me equally comfortable with each lane.

I change my Dial In to 14.29.

His Dial In is 12.80. My R/T is .211 to his .155. We are running down the track and he is slowly but surely catching me. We get to the finish and he beats me by inches.

My ET is 14.350 to his 12.818. He beat me by .0988!

[FiveO]

Nice runs.

Bracket racing comes down to thousandth's of a second.

You'll get him next time! :up:

[Patrick]

:burn: :2thumbs: :2thumbs:

[BillyGman]

I change my Dial In to 14.29.

His Dial In is 12.80. My R/T is .211 to his .155. We are running down the track and he is slowly but surely catching me. We get to the finish and he beats me by inches.

My ET is 14.350 to his 12.818. He beat me by .0988!
Yeah, but he beat you not because he crossed the finish line first, but because his ET was only .018 seconds slower than his dial-in time, while yours was .06 seconds slower than your dial-in time. Still very close though.

[sailsmen]

He crossed the finish line first by .098 seconds of which .056 was due to a better reaction time and .042 was due to his closer ET to Dial In.

I was going with easy launches and I was also afraid I would break out. The racing started at 8:00 pm and the temp was just starting to drop before the humid could start raising.

I thought he got me but wasn't certain because it was so close.

[BillyGman]

yes, but you are aware that even if you had crossed the finish line first, you still would've lost if he ran an ET that was closer to his dial-in time than yours ET was to your dail-in, right?

[sailsmen]

yes, but you are aware that even if you had crossed the finish line first, you still would've lost if he ran an ET that was closer to his dial-in time than yours ET was to your dail-in, right?

I beleive if I crossed first I won. I thnk the only time that what you are saying comes into to play is if we finished dead even.

Perhaps one of our experienced braket racers can comment.

[FiveO]

Went to No Problem Raceway tonite. Hot 87* and humid 80%.

In the times trials ran 14.416, 14.315 & 14.334 w/ RT's of .222, .204 & .073. Set the dial in to 14.31.

First race againest a 396 1969? Camaro with drag radials. my R/T was .173 and ET 14.46.

Second race againest a pick up. He way red lited so I took my time crossing the starting line, 14.301 w/ RT .383.

This was a mistake be cause for the next round I being the one with the narrowest win went againest the one with the greatest win, LS-1 TransAm and he also got to pick his lane. He picked the right lane.

When I do time trials I usually go in the right lane because my left eye has better vision. Now I will split for equal starts in each to make me equally comfortable with each lane.

I change my Dial In to 14.29.

His Dial In is 12.80. My R/T is .211 to his .155. We are running down the track and he is slowly but surely catching me. We get to the finish and he beats me by inches.

My ET is 14.350 to his 12.818. He beat me by .0988!



He had a headstart....due to reaction times: .211 - .155 = .056 to him.

Your time - His time (difference between dial ins):

14.350 - 14.29 = .06

12.818 - 12.8 = .018

.06 - .018 = .042


.042 + .056 = .098


Should be right on.

[sailsmen]

The style of Bracket Racing is Dial In Heads Up.

Before the water box are digital signs for each lane displaying the Dial In. A box is placed between the trees to prevent view of your competitors tree while you are on the line.

The green light for the faster dial in goes off after the slower dial in by exactly the difference between the 2 Dial Ins. The faster dial in car must pass the slower dial in car.

Assuming both cars ET is exactly their Dial In, the one with the lower R/T would cross first and win.

[FiveO]

Also....if I'm reading this correctly:


In order for you to have crossed the finish line first...you would have had to "break out"....by going .098 faster than you did....which would put you at 14.252.


If your reaction time had been equal to his: say .155....then he would still have won because he was closer to his dial in. But...he would have only beat you by .042. In order for you to have won (with the same reaction time) you would have had to run a 14.35 - .042 = 14.308 (actually would have been a tie as both reaction times were equal and you were both .018 above your dial ins......

SOOOO! The Winning time with equal RT's would have to have been 14.307. Best way to look at is this: If your reaction time difference (yours ++) is larger than the difference between his dial in and actual time....your out of luck. Theres no way to win without breaking out.


In time trials...non bracket racing.....your reaction time doesn't play a part of your actually ET's. In actual bracket racing...it does. Your ET doesn't change...but you're also racing against your opponents reaction time so it does play a fairly large part.

[FiveO]

The style of Bracket Racing is Dial In Heads Up.

Before the water box are digital signs for each lane displaying the Dial In. A box is placed between the trees to prevent view of your competitors tree while you are on the line.

The green light for the faster dial in goes off after the slower dial in by exactly the difference between the 2 Dial Ins. The faster dial in car must pass the slower dial in car.

Assuming both cars ET is exactly their Dial In, the one with the lower R/T would cross first and win.


Edited: Read your question wrong.

You are correct. If both cars hit their dial in nuts on....then the one with the faster reaction time wins.

[stumpy]

If he took the stripe by .09 (almost a tenth) then he took a big chance of breaking out. Given that you were so far behind (.09 ~ 1 car length) your only chance to win would have been to slam on the brakes at the end and hope that he breaks out. If you can't take the stripe and he's not playing the finish line (looking to see where you are and adjusting his lead) then don't take the risk of losing on a double break out.

The lights are timed so that every race will be a tie if both cars run their number exactly and cut identical lights. Odds of that happening are worse than hitting super lotto.

Also, the first to red light loses and the other guys win light instantly come on. Therefore, treat it as a time run and another opportunity to practice at the tree.

Does any of this make sense?

[FiveO]

If he took the stripe by .09 (almost a tenth) then he took a big chance of breaking out. Given that you were so far behind (.09 ~ 1 car length) your only chance to win would have been to slam on the brakes at the end and hope that he breaks out. If you can't take the stripe and he's not playing the finish line (looking to see where you are and adjusting his lead) then don't take the risk of losing on a double break out.

The lights are timed so that every race will be a tie if both cars run their number exactly and cut identical lights. Odds of that happening are worse than hitting super lotto.

Also, the first to red light loses and the other guys win light instantly come on. Therefore, treat it as a time run and another opportunity to practice at the tree.

Does any of this make sense?
I agree to a point.

Bracket racing is about really knowing your car....and having good reaction times.

As a newbie bracket racer I always set my dial in lower than what I thought she would run....because I was so afraid of breaking out....and I lost most of my races.

What people need to do is set their dial to what they feel the car is going to run...to the .001's

Then when you're getting to the end of the strip...if you see your ahead.....you can touch the brakes or let off.

If you know your car....you should be able to dial in...hit the gas and just go. Simply put...just go!!! If you break out...it won't be by much.

[BillyGman]

Stumpy, I don't know what you mean by the "stripe". Some of that racing jargon throws me off. But quite simply, isn't it true that in bracket racing,your reaction time does NOT effect your ET, and that it doesn't matter at all what your reaction time is? And isn't it true that in bracket racing you're simply racing the clock, and that even if you sat there w/your car perfectly still for 3 full seconds behind the starting line after the light turns green, that the clock isn't going to start recording your ET for your lane until your car begins to move? That's what my understanding is.

If what I'm saying is true, then in bracket racing your reaction time doesn't matter, and the only importance to working on your reaction time ("RT") is that it serves as good practice for IF and when you get to the final shootout, since many events include "heads-up" racing in the final shootout where ofcourse your reaction time DOES matter, and where there isn't any requirement for a dail-in, nor does it include any handicapping of the timing of the green lights for either lane like there is in bracket racing.

[FiveO]

In any type of drag racing....:

RT does not effect ET....BUT!!!!:

In bracket racing:

The difference is RT is added or subtracted from the difference in ET's.....as posted in my above calculations.

RT; Reaction Time is very important in bracket racing. Say your opponent hits a perfect reaction time. You do a .250 reaction time (1/4 a second). This means that you give him a .250 second head start. .250 seconds is a huge difference in bracket racing.

[FiveO]

Billy...if you look at my calculations:

sailsmen's RT difference was ADDED to the +++ difference in his ET's....to get the total ++ in loss.


Hope that makes sense. Reaction time is just as important as ET's. Thats why good RT's "and" good ET's (Dial ins' and knowing your car) are both important.


Just trying to explain...


And sailsmen...I'm not trying to insult you...just showing calculations. I'd bet I've lose more races than you over the years... :lol: I learned the hard way....by dialing in too low and crappy reaction times (Yours weren't too bad...! Your last opponent had a good one).

[BillyGman]

But if it's true that the ET clock for your lane doesn't start until your car moves regardless of your what your RT is, then I don't see what your reaction time would have to do w/it, since it wouldn't effect your ET. Because if your RT effects your ET, then it must NOT be true that the clock doesn't start until your car moves, but in that case it must start as soon as the light turns green. And it's been my understanding that the only type of drag racing where the clock for your lane begins as soon as the light turns green is in "heads-up" racing. And therefore it's in that type of racing where your RT does matter, since it can determine who the winner is in a close race..

[sailsmen]

"The style of Bracket Racing is Dial In Heads Up.

Before the water box are digital signs for each lane displaying the Dial In. A box is placed between the trees to prevent view of your competitors tree while you are on the line.

The green light for the faster dial in goes off after the slower dial in by exactly the difference between the 2 Dial Ins. The faster dial in car must pass the slower dial in car.

Assuming both cars ET is exactly their Dial In, the one with the lower R/T would cross first and win."

Billy bracket racing is all about the reaction time. Usually the R/T is where the variable is, most cars assuming they consistantly hook up, ( this is why I was doing soft launches to make certain I didn't sit&spin ) will run very consistant ET's.

My R/T of .211 in the race I lost was average, I shoot for an R/T in the .1 range. The guy who beat me was a better driver on that run. He had a better R/T and was closer to his Dial In.

He only beat me by a couple of feet, passed me at the very end, close enough I wasn't 100% sure he won.

[FiveO]

BillyGman....think of it this way:


Its still a race to the finish line at the end of the track.


Bracket racing does nothing more than make the cars even....theoretically...not the drivers.

If you and I are racing....and you have a perfect reaction time and I say...sit at the starting line for 1.00 seconds....really poor reaction time....that means that you're accelerating down the track for a full second longer than me. That means you already have a 1.00 second head start racing for the finish line (and crossing the finish line before the other guy is the goal!).

Here is another way to think about it....although probably wouldn't happen:

You nail a perfect reaction time and leave. I stay at the starting line....never even moving....green light....I still stay....never starting my ET. My reaction time is still counting up.

You get to the finish line and don't break out. Guess what...you win. Why? Because you beat me to the end of the track. Bracket racing is a combo of good RT, good ET (close to dial in) and above all....beating the other guy to the end of the track.

[BillyGman]

I hope that Glen (aka "Stumpy") will jump in here to enlighten us, because I believe he can sift through this. But until he does, let me add that I thought that "heads-up" racing is NOT "bracket racing". Back in June, I had a bracket race against a Camaro w/slicks and a roll cage. He ran a 25.5 ET, and I ran a 12.2 ET, but he was the winner simply because his dial-in was closer to his ET than mine was to my ET. So why would the RT matter? If RT matters, then why doesn't the clock for your lane begin as soon as you get the green light, instead of waiting until your car begins to move?

[stumpy]

Five O has it figured out for the most part. The main thing to know about all drag racing is that it is ALWAYS a race to the finish line (aka stripe). Having the quickest ET is only for bragging rights.

I've had a great time racing the past two years and have learned a lot in the 50 or so races I've participated in (2 finals appearances) as well as the countless times to the track. Here are some terms and tips that I've learned from a lot of good racers. Feel free to correct me where I am wrong. HTH

Bracket race - a handicapped race using a .500 sportsman tree. Invented out of necessity by NHRA hall of famer and nice guy Bill Wilcom of 75-80 Drag Way in Monrovia Md. Drivers must predict their ET. The starting of the lights for each lane are staggered so that the slower car gets a head start based upon the difference between the ETs of the two cars. There is usually a blinder on the tree so that each driver can't see the lights for other lane (except for the red light).

Heads up race - both cars start at the exact same time. Most of the time these races use a .400 Pro Tree. The fastest car typically wins. Reaction Time is very important here if the cars are very closely matched.

Tree - aka Christmas tree, is a post with 2 identical sets of lights, one for each lane, that controls the start of the race. It has 2 small bulbs at the top used to stage the cars for the start line, 3 amber bulbs that alert the driver that the race is about to start, 1 green bulb that signals the exact moment at which the race begins (note: this is not when the ET timers start) and 1 red light which indicates a foul start (ie. going before the race begins).

Sportsman Tree - the lights are staggered .500 seconds apart from one another. You have the 1st amber, then .500 seconds later the 2nd amber is lit, then .500 later the 3rd amber is lit and finally .500 later the green light is lit. If you are shallow staging then you are typically .500 seconds behind the starting line. It generally takes a driver a half second to react to seeing the last amber to when the car actually crosses the starting line. That's why most ppl leave on the 3rd amber. Hence, if you see the green light, you've lost.

Pro Tree - the lights are controlled totally different. All 3 amber lights come on at the same time. The green then comes on .400 seconds later. As soon as you see amber, nail it! If you see amber you are not likely to ever red light.

RT - Reaction time. The time it takes for you to go from a dead stop at the staging line until your front tire crosses the starting line.

Stripe - finish line, aka "the line".

Taking too much stripe - when a driver was way out in front and broke out because he didn't play the finish line. A good bracket racer knows where his opponent is at the 1/8 mile mark and will only take as much of the finish line as he needs and never much more than a few feet if the race is close.

Sand bagging - dialing a slower ET in oder to get a bigger head start at the light.

Duck Hunting - intentionally lining up against someone you expect to run poorly or who is known to cut bad lights. Looking for the easy kill.

Cutting a good light - having a fantastic reaction time. At a good track, a .05x or lower light is considered a good light. A .01x is a great light. It is quite common to see .00x lights at some of the better tracks on the East coast. I once saw three perfect lights (.000) in one single round of heavy eliminator time runs of about 80 cars. :sweat:

Bad light - having a poor reaction time, elicits comments like; in a comma at the tree, he slept bad at the light or wake up! Typically a .1xx is a bad light. Anything above .2xx is a very bad light and .5xx is horrible.

Treeing an opponent - when you get a much better reaction time than your opponent. ie. "I tree'd him good with a .004 against his .130 and coasted across the line."

Lifting - letting off the gas at the end because you are in the lead and it's clear that your opponent can't beat you to the line. Basic insurance against breaking out when you expect to cross the line first.

On the brakes hard - a finish line tactic that can be used when leading as well as trailing. If you are way out in the lead but want to get good times to the 1000' mark but are afraid of breaking out. Also important if you see that you're not going to catch your opponent and he will take the stripe. Therefore, it's best to hit the brakes at the end in hopes that he will break out and you will come in over your dial. This tactic has served me well where I ran .005 over my dial on the brakes at the end while the other guy ran .1 or more under his dial. This is a very important tactic against known sand baggers. Note, however, that to pull this off you need to have a good RT.

Foul - a red light start in any race or a break out (running under your dial-in) in a bracket race. The first to red light loses! If your opponent red lights with a -.001, then you can go on the first yellow and get an even bigger red light because it doesn't matter, you've already won. However, in a break out situation the one that breaks out the most loses.

Accepting your dial - not a term really but very important in bracket racing. Before you stage your car it is vital that you look at the dial-in that the track entered for you. If it is not correct then DO NOT STAGE! Get the starters attention (shut off your car if needed) and ask them to correct it. If you stage, it signifies that you accept the dial.

Staging - One of the most important aspects of bracket racing. To be consistent at the lights you must stage the exact same each time. Staging involves crossing two staging beams with your front tires. The first stage beam lights the top light. The second staging beam lights the bottom light. At that point, unless you are deep staging, you are considered fully staged and the starter or autostart will control the lights. To be consistent, you should always stage the same way each time. If not, you run the risk of a red light or a slow reaction time.

Pre-staged - only 1st staging bulb is lit. Etiquette is to hold here until your opponent has also pre-staged.

Fully staged - both staging bulbs are lit.

Deep staged - only the bottom staging bulb is lit. This only happens after both bulbs are lit and the top light is extinguished by inching up a little bit closer to the starting line. When a car deep stages the started will manually operate the lights. Proper etiquette when deep staging is to get in and fully stage early and then deep stage after your opponent pre-stages. FYI, expect a .1 slower ET when deep staging. Most drivers only do this to help improve their reaction time.

Auto start - controls the way the lights work. If both cars shallow stage then most tracks will let auto start run the lights. Be careful not to foul here by taking too long to stage. Auto start kicks in as soon as one car is fully staged and the other is pre-staged. Once that happens the pre-staged car has a set amount of time to fully stage. Most of the time it's 20 seconds but it can be less. A friend of mine foul because he took more than 10 seconds to fully stage. He didn't get a time slip either because it was treated as a bye run for the other guy.

Manual start - is when the starter manually controls the start of the lights. He can wait a while or go within a second of the last car fully staging. Most of the time it's on auto start, except when someone is deep staging.

Bye run - when a car runs unopposed. If there are an odd number of cars then one car gets to run alone. This is usually determined by best reaction time. A driver can not get back to back bye runs. The best time to get a bye run is in the semi finals (next to last race). Also, best RT when there are an even number of cars usually means that you get lane choice. RT is definitely important!

Break out - running under your predicted ET (dial). In a single break out race, the one that broke out loses. To make it fair, you can't simply dial 14.00 when you know the car runs 12.00 and go as fast as you want in order to take the finish line.

Double Break out - both cars ran too fast. The car that breaks out the most loses.

Hole Shot - A car with a slower ET beats a car with a quicker ET in a heads up race. The only way this can happen is if the slower car beats the faster car off the line, ie. cuts a much better light. It has happened to me in a race against a car that was less than .200 slower. He cut a .2x light to my .6x light. Remember, a pro tree is over in a heart beat and RTs are generally much slower for foot brake classes.

Foot brake class - non electronic class, all drivers must use the brakes to hold their car at the line. No electronics are allowed.

Electronics - devices used to control the launch. The driver stages the car and holds it in place at the line using a trans brake or line lock. They also use rev limiters to hold the car at a specific RPM while pressing the go peddle all the way to the floor. The engine breaks up as it bounces off the start line rev limiter (usually set below the stall rpm of the TC). A delay box allows the driver to release the momentary switch that launches the car after a delay timer expires. This way you can chose the light to release on, but the car doesn't launch until the delay timer expires. Electronics provide push button launches that result in maximum performance and extremely quick RTs.

Win light - a set of lights that indicate which lane won the race. There will typically be a win light on the timing boards for each lane as well as one or more lights along the side of the track past the finish line for the racer to see.

[BillyGman]

WOW!! Great post Glen!!! Thanks very much. As a novice, my head is spinning from of all of that. But it IS great info. I knew you would be of much help here. I guess it will be awhile before I fully grasp all the ins & outs of this sport. But now I have another question for you.....

If I install line-lock on my car which has an automatic transmission just to prevent from burning up the rear brakes while performing burnouts on the street and on the track, will I be forced to run in the electronics classes at the track even if I don't use the line-lock on the starting line?

[stumpy]

I hope that Glen (aka "Stumpy") will jump in here to enlighten us, because I believe he can sift through this. But until he does, let me add that I thought that "heads-up" racing is NOT "bracket racing". Back in June, I had a bracket race against a Camaro w/slicks and a roll cage. He ran a 25.5 ET, and I ran a 12.2 ET, but he was the winner simply because his dial-in was closer to his ET than mine was to my ET. So why would the RT matter? If RT matters, then why doesn't the clock for your lane begin as soon as you get the green light, instead of waiting until your car begins to move?
There is no such thing as heads up bracket racing. It's either a heads up race, or a bracket race.

RT definitely matters, it's clearly the most important aspect of bracket racing!

To bring this into perspective, realize that the green light signifies the start of the race between 2 cars. It's the moment in time at which the race between you and the other car officially started. What it's not is a time at which you are released to go whenever you please. Consider if you race a guy at a stop light. If he takes off as soon as the light turns green and you wait a few seconds, he's not gonna say, "well although I barely beat you to the next light I concede that you got here quicker than I did so you win." On the contrary, he's gonna look over and grin like he owned you.

There's only one way to get good at bracket racing, and that's to bracket race often. The key to bracket racing is to always do the same thing every time. Try and stage the exact same way each time, don't change equipment or ice down the intake etc. You want to run the same race time after time. Staging is critical to a good RT because it determines how far you are from the starting line. I've become very good at predicting when someone is gonna red light as I watch them stage. If I see a guy bump in too far after he lights the 2nd bulb (he'll typically slam on the brakes when he notices the 2nd bulb is lit), 9 times out of 10 he will red light unless he backs off.


IIf I install line-lock on my car which has an automatic transmission just to prevent from burning up the rear brakes while performing burnouts on the street and on the track, will I be forced to run in the electronics classes at the track even if I don't use the line-lock on the starting line?
Not if you don't use it to stage. This is quite common actually, I have to have a line lock in my vette because it's a stick, but I foot brake at the starting line.

[BillyGman]

Thanks again Glen.

[FiveO]

Great info....thanks!

I don't know everything...but am learning steadily.

[CRUZTAKER]

Great post Glen....appreciated!

[maraudernkc]

I saw your pics and I have the same Alpine Head unit.Is yours hard to see th LED display in the day?

Take care, Greg


He had a headstart....due to reaction times: .211 - .155 = .056 to him.

Your time - His time (difference between dial ins):

14.350 - 14.29 = .06

12.818 - 12.8 = .018

.06 - .018 = .042


.042 + .056 = .098


Should be right on.

[FiveO]

On occasion its hard to see.

I'm pretty tall and just lean forward a bit.

Previous owner installed it. I'm putting a new one in in about a year or so.