Noise from engine

[04MEMA]

:confused: I've been searching around trying to find if anyone has had this sound coming from their engine, but I haven't found a complete match. Car is 2004 bone stock 2,300 miles. Engine sounds are nearly impossible to describe, but here goes. It's a rattle. I know what spark knock sounds like and this isn't it. There seems to be no power loss. The sound is subtle, but had a couple coworkers in the car today and they said they heard it when I pointed it out. It happens when I'm accelerating through 50-60 mph 3500 rpmish range. About 1/3 or so + throttle.

I recorded the sound but I don't know how to post it - the zipped wav file is 1.9 Megs - help here please...

You'd need to listen to the sound file at a fairly high volume through decent speakers. I took the sound event and made it repeat 4 times to give a chance for the listener to have it sink in.

Thanks,
Jeff

[Hack Goby]

Damn Jeff,Member 588? and your in the Motor City?How in the hell did you and the rest of the Motor City Crew not get together this year?You sure missed alot of fun.

[04MEMA]

Damn Jeff,Member 588? and your in the Motor City?How in the hell did you and the rest of the Motor City Crew not get together this year?You sure missed alot of fun.

:cool: Ahhh... we did, but very few of the crew new it. See for the last 5 years or so for the Woodward dream cruise my old man's been parking his '56 Chevy at the Burger King across from Dugan's - a college buddy of my brother's owns the place and saves "old man Peters" a spot out on the front lawn. Anyway, who parks right next door to the BK for this years dream cruise but the Motor City Marauders. I spent most of my time talking to Lidio and Jerry Barnes when I came over, but I did talk with a few others. I had just purchased my 04MEMA a couple days before the cruise,and met Bigslim, while cruisin' on that Thursday. My member name was JSPNLAP when I first joined up until a month or so ago.

Thanks for the comments
:beer:

[04MEMA]

hmmm... delayed memory response - your MM's silver. Did you have it at the dream cruise parked facing the store front with a productions quantities list under your open hood??? If that was you then we already met!


Jeff :wave:

[Hack Goby]

hmmm... delayed memory response - your MM's silver. Did you have it at the dream cruise parked facing the store front with a productions quantities list under your open hood??? If that was you then we already met!


Jeff :wave:That would be me! OK Jeff I think I remember now talking to you over at the Burger King.Your brothers buddy who owns the Burger King,We got along great with him.Nice guy.

[BillyGman]

Jeff, on one hand, if it is pinging, then I'd think that it would have something to do w/the factory computer setting being incorrect for the air/Fuel ratio, or for the ignition timing advance, and in that case, the S/cer kit that you've purchased, will include a chip that will change all of those setting which will make them correct for a S/Ced engine.


But on the other hand, if there is some other underlying problem that you need the dealer to address, then you better get all of that squared away now before you install a S/Cer on it, because if you still have that noise after the S/Cer installation, the dealer in question is almost certainly going to be likely to say that it's because of the S/cer, and that it will have to come out of your pocket. So I'd say that you should take it to the dealer, and have the service manager go for a ride w/you behind the wheel, so that you can duplicate the noise. W/out hearing it, and based solely on your written description, it does sound like pinging to me, but then again, I haven't actually heard it for myself, so that's a guess on my part. But I wouldn't put this off if I were you. Pinging can mess-up your engine quickly in some cases, and the last thing you want to do is to add 100+ HP to an engine via S/Cing if that engine is anything but 100% healthy!!!

[Marauderjack]

Jeff....

I've had a weird noise in my 04 that sounds like a paper cup rattling in the passenger side front door!!?? I really hear it going slow and turning right!!

Turns out it is the A/C drain putting water on the hot exhaust (sputter, sputter, pop, pop)!! At times I was affraid it was knocking but it didn't really sound like knocking....as I have heard it. If I park my car leaning slightly left it will do it after the engine is turned off!!

When you get home with the engine hot...squirt some water all over your windshield and see what it sounds like......it may be doing the same thing mine is?? I plan to get under it and see if i can divert the drain away from the hot exhaust!

My $.02!!

Marauderjack :cool4:

[04MEMA]

BillyGman,
We're on the same page. I'm delaying my pickup of the s/c to get this car into the dealer. I'm not installing that bad boy till I get this thing figured out. I spent more time thinking about the spark knock idea, but was driving tonight and making great power with 50 degree air, 93 octane, and the noise was still there. Let me know if you want I'll email you or anyone else who's interested the sound file (1.9 meg zipped).
Anyway, hopefully this issue won't take long. I'm planning on doing the install the weekend after this weeekend. I cannot wait to have all the power at my tippy toes... :banana: :banana2:
P.S. Where are you located in Connecticut?

MauderJack - thanks for the input and valuable info. I've given your idea some thought but have determined that the conditions under which this noise occurs doesn't match. Thanks though. :)
Jeff

[04MEMA]

Took car to dealer Tuesday morning. Gave a thorough description of issue to service writer. Early afternoon got a call from service - technician couldn't hear anything. Picked up car.

Today I stopped in the dealer and asked if the tech was available for me to show him the sound. We went for a ride - of course first 30 seconds or so the car doesn't make the sound. Then it finally comes on. The mechanic hears it. We discuss it. He admits it doesn't sound/act like spark knock, which is what he was looking for when he drove it. I intentionally filled up with 94 Octane Tuesday night to rule out spark knock. The mechanic says (I'm paraphrasing here) this is a subtle and soft sound that he thinks most people wouldn't notice or take issue with. He also says that it may be normal for this car. I explain to him that this sound has just begun. I explain that a large part of my job is driving cars and listening very closely for axle noise, so I'm likely to notice these soft noises (although it doesn't seem soft to me anymore). It didn't do this until around 2,300 miles were accumulated (it has about 2,700 now). He seems to think it's no big deal. I decide not to argue it. I explain that I'm putting a S/C on it next week and I know my warranty's going out the door. He says that they have to prove that a mod would cause a problem to block warranty repair. I ask if there is a way to document that the mechanic heard the sound I brought the car in for in case this gets worse after I install the blower. We go back to the service writer and in the memo section of the write up program he qoutes the tech saying there is a metalic rattling sound coming from the engine.

So that's the story. I'm relieved the mechanic heard the sound, cause it might be trouble (I'm thinking lifter/valve issue). I'm a little concerned that he wasn't more eager to find out what the sound was once he heard it, but I was told by the service writer that he (the technician) looked through all the service bulletins and found nothing applicable. The mechanic told me a story about a Firebird he had that had piston slap and he believed the dealer who told him it was normal after driving another Firebird on their lot and hearing the same noise. But I drove about 8 different MM's before I bought mine and never heard this sound... Anyway, I'm installing my Trilogy next weekend. Guess I'm gonna gamble - and I'm soooo excited to get that huge power increase I can't wait. I hope the sound gets drowned out by S/C whine, so I don't have to hear this "normal" sound anymore. If that doesn't cover it up, maybe the screeching from the tires will... :D :burnout: :banana2:

P.S. I have a sound file I recorded of this - it's a 1.9 Megabyte wav file. If anyone is interested I will email it, just send me a PM or post the request. I tried to find out how to post it, but have had no luck.
Thanks,
Jeff

[SergntMac]

Do yourself a favor BEFORE you install the S/C...Buy, rent, borrow, steal, a bore scope. Pull your plugs and take a peek inside, just for *****s and gidggles, K? Won't hurt to peek at your pistons.

[2003 MIB]

When I tore down my original engine the girdle that hold the cams down on the right cylinder bank was loose. It was a ticking sound- I've heard it on other 4.6 DOHC equipped vehicles- just a thought.

[04MEMA]

Thanks for the reply's guys, I've used your input in my work below...

As a next step I talked to Jerry Barnes about the issue I was having. He encouraged me to talk to his go to guy, Lidio. So I contact Alternative Automotive and have a converstaion with Lidio. He's very interested and welcomes me to bring the car by for him to have a listen. Being that I wanted to install the Trilogy this weekend, I hurry up and get over there. Lidio and I go for a drive with him piloting. Strangely enough as we're pulling up to the main road to begin the drive (Groesbeck) a 90 something Tbird goes by and right in front of us loses a tie rod end or something - the front passenger side tire was burning rubbing against something in the wheel well? How many times do you witness that? Fortunately the car comes to a safe stop on the side of the road. We could see something hanging down under the front of the car.

Back to the story - We start driving and the very first instance of the sound that appears, Lidio picks right up on it. He continues to try different things to better understand when this sound is exhibited. He realizes that the sound doesn't happen with the car in neutral, or under WOT. Only under part throttle conditions under load will the engine create the sound. Again the sound happens around 3,500 rpm. Lidio hasn't seen this exact problem before. Of course I explain my experience with the L/M dealer. Lidio felt that I really need to get this resolved before I install the blower. He mentioned if the dealer strikes out maybe we can put my car on his dyno and try to troubleshoot it. Next -

This time I take the MM to a Ford dealer. This one's not far from my work so it's convenient. I explain the issue, and my previous trip to the L/M dealer and Lidio to the Ford writer (who incedentally has heard of Lidio) and he summons a mechanic to go for a ride. All 3 of us go out and the mechanic hears the sound. We get back to the dealership and the writer tells me that mechanics not going to be in tomorrow (Wednesday) but I can bring my car back on Thursday. That kind of throws a wrench in the works since I have Thursday off and won't be in that neck of the woods so I'd have to arrange a person to pick me up etc. Also, I want to get this issue resolved ASAP since I've got a beautiful new monster power adder waiting to be installed! But, I figure it's dooable and make an appointment for Thursday. And I had a decent impression since the writer and the mechanic immediately went for a ride with me. The mechanic mentioned that he would probably have to research and call around in order to try and figure this out.

So I get back to work and realize what a pain it is going to be to get back out to where I work on my day off and also am not pleased that I have to wait to get the ball rolling on this. So I stop by a Ford dealer on my way home from work that's really near my house. I explain the situation to this writer and he sets me up to bring it by around 8:00 AM the next morning when the technicians get in. So I do that. The mechanic and I go for a ride, I of course explain the problem to him. He doesn't hear it while he's driving. I take the wheel. I hear the sound, and repeat it over a few times. He doesn't hear it. We return to the dealership. We talk for a while and another mechanic shows up that the first mechanic wants to have go for a ride. So we go for another ride with mechanic #2 driving. He hears the sound, but isn't sure what it is. He wants to find a way to make it exhibit the sound while the car is sitting still - so he can pop the hood and listen. Mechanic 1 explains that he already tried brake torqueing in the parking lot to no avail. The tires began to spin and at that point it was useless. So we return to the dealership and mechanic 2 tries to get the sound in the parking lot. Revving the engine by hand with throttle cable under the hood, car in park, listening for noise. Nothing - all the way out to bouncning off the rev limiter. Also the brake torque was attempted, this time in reverse with the parking brake on and the brake pedal applied. Engine can't climb to 3,500 rpm's and there's no ticking sound. He tries again in drive, nope. After some discussion, they don't have an answer. All that they can do at this point is check "OASIS" for technical service bulletins and call some "hotline" for help. So I take my car and go off to work. Around 3 in the afternoon I call the writer to find out if anything was learned. The writer tells me the mechanic found nothing on OASIS and the hotline.

It just so happens I work with a guy who's brother used to be an engine seal engineer at Ford, and still works there in some capacity. Through him I get a contact name at Ford. Call the contact, his job has to do with engine quality. The person is very cool, and very helpful and concerned. I'm waiting on a call back or email contact to find out if he learned anything. While he didn't know for sure what this was, he pointed out to me that if this sound is a result of something in the lower end of the motor, the supercharger could quickly worsen the condition due the extra stress I would be applying. And you know the warranty won't cover it then!

So I'm waiting. Anticipation big time. I updated Jerry and Lidio about the situation - Jerry offered me a refund - I told him I'd rather install the blower and blow the motor than take a refund!! There's no way I'm gonna give up on getting 04MEMA up to big power! But I have to admit this stupid ticking sound has really sidetracked me. And here I am, after two dealership visits wondering how problems get diagnosed if no one has had the particular issue before? Two dealers, same answer - "couldn't find a TSB and the hotline didn't know of a problem like this" So if no one has had the problem, case closed?

Through all of this running around and abuse that the MM's taken, I believe the sound is a little more pronounced now. Hopefully my contact at Ford will yield the results I need - a fox, I mean a fix, although a fox would be nice too (sorry, sometimes I like to run away with my typos :D ). If that doesn't work I'm weighing these options:

1. Go to one of the dealers and start insisting that somebody actually diagnoses this problem.

2. Go see Lidio and try to diagnose the problem for Ford, out of my pocket, on Lidio's dyno (why aren't there chassis dynos at some of these dealerships?). Perhaps a bore scope, as was recommended here? Pull vavle covers and have a look fo something loose? Then assuming the problem is pinpointed, go back to the dealer and have a happy little talk. :nono:

3. Drive the car until this issue finally (hopefully? I know that sounds sick) deteriorates into a gross problem, at which point it will be plain to see that the engine's screwed up, and the dealer will probably do something then?

4. Of course I want to put the blower on right now, but that would likely be shooting myself in the foot - and blasting the wallet with a bazooka! :uzi: (no bazooka smiley)

In any case, I have no clue when I will be able to install kit 56!!!! :mad: :cheesed: :toss: :tantrum: :pill: :pill:

So there you have it, I apologize for the length of this post, but I think it might be helpful to some, and good for my rather light grip on what's left of my sanity!

And a big big thanks to all that have helped me with this so far. :grouphug:

Jeff

P.S. MaruaderJack - I was pulling into my driveway the other day going kind of fast and hit a sizeable puddle at that moment and I heard the sound you described when the water splashed up on the exhaust! Good description you gave of it!

[Sactown]

Jeff....

When you get home with the engine hot...squirt some water all over your windshield and see what it sounds like......it may be doing the same thing mine is?? I plan to get under it and see if i can divert the drain away from the hot exhaust!

My $.02!!

Marauderjack :cool4:
I remember the first time I washed my MM right after driving it...the steam hiss that belched out a few seconds after hosing down the windshield scared the crap out of me.

04MEMA, thanks for the detailed updates. Good luck with your quest for a solution...sounds like you have some good leads.

[rayjay]

I feel for ya. The dealers aren't willing to do a tear down unless they know exactly what the problem is. My .02 is, hold off on the blower until this problem is resolved. It could save you alot of money in the end. Ford will blame the blower for the engine failure even though these two dealers know there is already a problem. You can take that to the bank...

[merc406]

Here's a link to some causes of Engine noises http://www.imperialclub.com/Repair/Engine/noise.htm good luck and hope you can get the matter resolved quick. :burnout:

[Reduaram]

My `03 is making the exact same sound you are descibing and in the same conditions. Over the past week or two it's been getting worse. My dealership is jacking me off and I'm not impressed. Selective deafness. I won't go into any more detail about these clowns here.

Have you finally had the issue resolved?

[LCSO34]

Somebody posted a thread about this very issue a couple of weeks back. They had the camshaft girdles retorqued and it seemed to solve the problem.

[LCSO34]

I found it! "Color me Yellow" thats the thread. :banana: There are also other threads just type in "camshaft" on the search engine and click till your hearts content.

[WantOneSoBad]

I would just take it to the dealer and insist they fix it, its not normal and it should be fixed. They might think your an ******* for acting that way over a "trivial" problem but I'll be an ******* with a car that runs like its suppose to rather than a friendly, easy going guy with a car thats only getting progressivly worser as people keep dismissing my cars problems.

[Mike Poore]

:confused: I've been searching around trying to find if anyone has had this sound coming from their engine, ...Thanks, Jeff
Jeff, sorry you're having issues, but we all appreciate your going to the trouble to locate and resolve the source of the problem in a thoughtful and thorough manner, never mind the time you took to do a first class description of what you've done, so far. It seems to me, Lido's offer of dyno time is gonna be your best bet to locate where and how the noise is being generated. Also, it seems the Ford and LM dealers you've visited are trying their best to help you. Thing is, once you discover the source those guys are going to be ready to fix whatever's wrong. I think you're wise to wait for the SC install until the situation has been resolved. :)

[04MEMA]

My `03 is making the exact same sound you are descibing and in the same conditions. Over the past week or two it's been getting worse. My dealership is jacking me off and I'm not impressed. Selective deafness. I won't go into any more detail about these clowns here.

Have you finally had the issue resolved?

Since my last post here's what happened:

The advice given from my Ford contact was that I needed to get the car to a trusted L/M dealer and if they could witness the issue and not solve and label it abnormal, then they could call Ford and ask for help. Then Ford might send a out a field rep to look into this further. I took my car to the dealer I bought it from and they were very attentive, and had the car for several days but still did not come up with the answer. The service writer said he had driven another MM from their lot and it made the sound, which gave some validity to calling the sound normal. He also told me he was convinced it was not internal to the motor and it wouldn't interfere or cause problems after the blower install. Since that didn't give me an answer and no one from Ford was asked to help, I decided my last option (since i had to install the blower) was to have Lidio put it on his dyno and see if he could diagnose it.

So I took it back to Lidio, and he drove it on the street and put it on his dyno. To make a long story short the source was not pin pointed - we couldn't hear the noise on the dyno like we could on the street. I don't recall the exact details but Lidio did play with the timing to see if anything changed, but I don't believe it did. After the testing and having Lidio perform some HP pulls and adding his performance chip and doing some more pulls, Lidio seemed confident that I wouldn't have a problem when I installed the blower. I believe the reasoning was that if the issue was serious, then it would have likely worsened after the outright pummeling that the motor just took on the dyno.

So, without knowing for sure what the issue was, but feeling confident that the dealer and Lidio seemed okay with me going ahead with the install, I did (after poking around a little with some "chassis ears" I borrowed from work, to no avail).

Since the install, I haven't spent much time worrying about this, however I did listen for it. The blower now masks the sound, so it's hard to listen for, but I think the sound is still there. Actually it was really cold the other day and I heard what I believed to be the sound. It was a little more "beefy" sounding to me and I was like "oh crap". But the funny thing is when I'm cranking the tunes I don't hear it at all. I think that's what I'll be doing from now on - so I don't worry about it all the time. Then from time to time I'll listen closely for it and try to determine if it has gotten really bad, and then I'll suppose I'll do something about it. The more pronounced the issue becomes - I believe, the easier it will be to diagnose. And I guess I've accepted that the motor might just grenade at some point, but I've feel like I've done alot to have this issue dignosed so - so be it.

I think that's about it, except for mentioning that when I talked to my Ford contact, he checked the OASIS system and said that the first L/M dealer I took my car to (who told me that they documented hearing an unidentified metallic rattling sound) hadn't made any note about hearing the sound and said everything was normal (liars). :mad2: Oh, and the paper work I got back from the second dealer (who heard the sound and couldn't diagnose it) said everything was normal, and that nothing could be heard over the rumble of the exhaust. To say the least I wasn't very impressed.


Jeff