Help! 2nd Transmission Gone

[John F. Russo]

I was driving at 80 mph and floored it. I heard strange sounds like a belt went.
The "Check engine light" did not gon on. I went to the side of the road and could not go any faster than 40 mph at 3000 rpm. I obviously could not go into third gear.

History
My first transmission went at 8800 miles. I had my own transimission upgraded with a rebuild kit from Performance Automatic of New Jersey. Performance Automatic Rebuild Kit ("Super Streeter" version -600 hp max suggested- one grade less than their dragster which is their top of the line version). I bought (1) Valve body: p/n PA45301L ($280) (shifts more like a police interceptor than a dragster) (The original valve body was not visibly damaged but it still could have been. I did not want to have someone autopsy it at an additional cost to later find out that it should be replaced anyway.) (2) P/N 4PA45401 ($622), AODE overhaul kit, 8- Alto Red Eagle racing clutches, Kevlar band, Kolene steels (fit between the other 8 clutches), gasket and bushings.

General facts
1) My max. boost is 5 psig at highway speeds
2) I got 22000 miles out of this transmission. This is much better than the 8800 miles out of the factory original transmmission.

Performance Automatic Comment
Without the transmission being removed yet, Bill made a comment that "these transmissions can't take that much power in 3rd or 4th gear". I asked him if he has had any other MM with the same problem. He didn't recall. It is possible other Marauders have had the same problem but he doesn't know if a dealer may have called in for a "Super Streeter" version without mentioning the name MM. He said that it is likely the "stub shaft and cluthches" that went because 3rd gear failed. If it was just overdrive, than it would have been the "bands". My dealer will be removing the transmission to corroborate the condition that Performance Automatic has speculated about. Performance Automatic has a hardened steel stub shaft in stock as a solution.
He did mention that a MM from the Maryland area had a transmission upgrade and is a 12 second car. The car had a very tight rear end as evidenced by the tendency to have the rear wheels almost hop slightly. Who are you?

Driving habits
I have run the car at a drag strip only 10 times. 7 of those times was just a few days ago. I floor my gas pedal about twice a week on average.

How much more can go wrong with my car? I guess it goes with the territory. Imagine my potential problems if I go to 600 RWHP like Martyo?

Let's hear from the "Best and Brightest".
______________________________ _____________________
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Canadian) w/Light Flint (reversed
traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer,
clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light)
-Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03
-26,000 miles
-18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph, one tank of gas
-Stock transmission upgraded with Performance Automatic
"Super Streeter" transmission version
-Wheel locks (Ford); godshead valve stem caps
-Badgeless front grille by “Zack”
-Zaino waxing; RainX; front Autobhanded
Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion (450 hp) Born
3/28/03 (first drove it)
-Vortech supercharger (5 to 7 psig boost)
-377 RWTQ
-Metco control arms
-4.10 gears
-14 in. BaerClaw front brakes, two piston, slotted rotors
-MMX Driveshaft
-Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3 Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3
-Ford Racing Stud and Girdle
-Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18 99Y; rear
255/50ZR18 102Y)
-Dead pedal
-FordChip
-3/4 of a coil from each front stock spring removed to produce
the “same” effect as an Eibach spring
-Ground clearance: 5 in.
______________________________ ___________________________
1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel (gone)

[martyo]

I guess it goes with the territory. Imagine my potential problems if I go to 600 RWHP like Martyo?


Yes John it does go with the territory. I don't know what will break in my tranny or when. I have the utmost of confidence in the fellows who built my tranny (the "Bradshaw Boys" of Team Ford fame) and they tell me that they have done their best to get it right and make it hard to break, but who knows?

Note though that there are a lot of guys throwing down a lot more than 600 rwhp through these automatic trannys and they don't break.

[John F. Russo]

Yes John it does go with the territory. I don't know what will break in my tranny or when. I have the utmost of confidence in the fellows who built my tranny (the "Bradshaw Boys" of Team Ford fame) and they tell me that they have done their best to get it right and make it hard to break, but who knows?

Note though that there are a lot of guys throwing down a lot more than 600 rwhp through these automatic trannys and they don't break.

I'm glad you responded first. I now have more hope.

But why me with my high performance Baer front brakes failing (on my 2nd set) and my Performance Automatic modded transmission (going on to my 2nd rebuild)?

Of course I may now consider the "Bradshaw Boys" version. What will the approximate cost be from them?

P.S. Is your super MM car going to be a daily driver? I can make a trip to the New York area, may I see your car sometime?

[FordNut]

I had the DR level 2 kit put in at Team Ford by the Bradshaws. The DR kit came with the Kevlar bands and clutches in addition to the spiralock ring for the mechanical diode and a hardened stub shaft. It had instructions and drill bits for converting the valve body to the J-mod type improvements (although technically not the J-mod, it's close to the same) and forced lube for the tailshaft bushing (still a lot of dispute as to whether this is useful or important, but it hasn't had any negative effects). Granted I'm not blown yet, but I believe Dennis' statements that the tranny with these improvements should be adequate for the power levels we're looking at with Marauders.

[Mike Poore]

John the only clue I've been getting is from Logan, and others, that when you go WOT, make sure the OD button is pushed, first. In other words, make sure you are NOT in overdrive when you hammer it. Do you have the drive shaft mod? The reason I ask is wondering if the stock unit winds up/flex under sudden heavy power dumps.

[martyo]

P.S. Is your super MM car going to be a daily driver? I can make a trip to the New York area, may I see your car sometime?

Don't know on the cost, but a number of the Souther fellows can put you in tocuh with them. I supposed you could ship yoru tranny down to them in teh ATL for service and have it shipped back if that is the route you want to take.

[John F. Russo]

John the only clue I've been getting is from Logan, and others, that when you go WOT, make sure the OD button is pushed, first. In other words, make sure you are NOT in overdrive when you hammer it. Do you have the drive shaft mod? The reason I ask is wondering if the stock unit winds up/flex under sudden heavy power dumps.



Mike Poore
Thank you for the suggestion. I guess that is what I have to do if I don't want to have to replace the transmission every 22000 miles.

Martyo
"Don't know on the cost, but a number of the Souther fellows can put you in tocuh with them."

Can any of you Southern boys check in with a telephone number please?(P.S. I know I'm from Massachusetts but I am more conservative than many of you. So don't hold that against me.)

[GordonB]

John,
Does that mean that you are voting against the prevailing grain in Mass?
Just kidding and not derailing your thread.
Trannys: How manny clutches are there for OD vs. First, Second and Third Gears? Is that the gist of the AOD self-destruction when punching it at 60mph? Enquiring minds...

GordonB

[Bluerauder]

I have run the car at a drag strip only 10 times. 7 of those times was just a few days ago. I floor my gas pedal about twice a week on average.
Wish you had posted this before I made 6 runs on Saturday. :D

[John F. Russo]

Wish you had posted this before I made 6 runs on Saturday. :D

Even though you're from Virginia, are you saying that you were in the area of the New England Dragway located in New Hampshire?

[John F. Russo]

John,
Does that mean that you are voting against the prevailing grain in Mass?
Just kidding and not derailing your thread.
Trannys: How manny clutches are there for OD vs. First, Second and Third Gears? Is that the gist of the AOD self-destruction when punching it at 60mph? Enquiring minds...

GordonB

I really don't know the answer to this since its been several months since I have seen the clutches.

Update
According to Tom, the guru at Performance Automatic, my condition is caused by the stub shaft and clutches. I won't know this until tomorrow when Wall's Lincoln Mercury dealer opens up my transmission. Performance already has a hardened steel stub shaft that will essentially eliminate future damage. I'm not sure why they didn't offer it to me to begin with.

Driving TIp
I was recently told that it is possible to blow one's S/C engine if one doesn't drop to 3rd gear before flooring the pedal. I run at a "delivered" 5 psig boost.
The higher the boost, the greater the possibility that one will blow a S/C engine. Any other thoughts about this statement?

[Mike Poore]

Wish you had posted this before I made 6 runs on Saturday. :D
Gordon & Charlie: did you notice John's list of mods? I don't think we have anything to worry about with our bone stock MM's. Nevertheless, I'm very careful about the position of that O/D button when I go WOT. :arcade:

[Dennis Reinhart]

I was driving at 80 mph and floored it. I heard strange sounds like a belt went.
The "Check engine light" did not gon on. I went to the side of the road and could not go any faster than 40 mph at 3000 rpm. I obviously could not go into third gear.

History
My first transmission went at 8800 miles. I had my own transimission upgraded with a rebuild kit from Performance Automatic of New Jersey. Performance Automatic Rebuild Kit ("Super Streeter" version -600 hp max suggested- one grade less than their dragster which is their top of the line version). I bought (1) Valve body: p/n PA45301L ($280) (shifts more like a police interceptor than a dragster) (The original valve body was not visibly damaged but it still could have been. I did not want to have someone autopsy it at an additional cost to later find out that it should be replaced anyway.) (2) P/N 4PA45401 ($622), AODE overhaul kit, 8- Alto Red Eagle racing clutches, Kevlar band, Kolene steels (fit between the other 8 clutches), gasket and bushings.

General facts
1) My max. boost is 5 psig at highway speeds
2) I got 22000 miles out of this transmission. This is much better than the 8800 miles out of the factory original transmmission.

Performance Automatic Comment
Without the transmission being removed yet, Bill made a comment that "these transmissions can't take that much power in 3rd or 4th gear". I asked him if he has had any other MM with the same problem. He didn't recall. It is possible other Marauders have had the same problem but he doesn't know if a dealer may have called in for a "Super Streeter" version without mentioning the name MM. He said that it is likely the "stub shaft and cluthches" that went because 3rd gear failed. If it was just overdrive, than it would have been the "bands". My dealer will be removing the transmission to corroborate the condition that Performance Automatic has speculated about. Performance Automatic has a hardened steel stub shaft in stock as a solution.
He did mention that a MM from the Maryland area had a transmission upgrade and is a 12 second car. The car had a very tight rear end as evidenced by the tendency to have the rear wheels almost hop slightly. Who are you?

Driving habits
I have run the car at a drag strip only 10 times. 7 of those times was just a few days ago. I floor my gas pedal about twice a week on average.

How much more can go wrong with my car? I guess it goes with the territory. Imagine my potential problems if I go to 600 RWHP like Martyo?

Let's hear from the "Best and Brightest".
______________________________ _____________________
2003 Dark Blue Pearl 300B (Canadian) w/Light Flint (reversed
traction control, mini spare, trunked 6 disc CD changer,
clock-in-the-radio, heated front seats/mirrors, hood light)
-Born 12/10/02; converted new then used 2/28/03
-26,000 miles
-18.5 mpg at a steady speed of 80 mph, one tank of gas
-Stock transmission upgraded with Performance Automatic
"Super Streeter" transmission version
-Wheel locks (Ford); godshead valve stem caps
-Badgeless front grille by “Zack”
-Zaino waxing; RainX; front Autobhanded
Kenny Brown: 6th “Signature Series” conversion (450 hp) Born
3/28/03 (first drove it)
-Vortech supercharger (5 to 7 psig boost)
-377 RWTQ
-Metco control arms
-4.10 gears
-14 in. BaerClaw front brakes, two piston, slotted rotors
-MMX Driveshaft
-Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3 Precision, triple disc, P/N469018-3
-Ford Racing Stud and Girdle
-Pirelli P-Zero Asimmetrico (front 255/45ZR18 99Y; rear
255/50ZR18 102Y)
-Dead pedal
-FordChip
-3/4 of a coil from each front stock spring removed to produce
the “same” effect as an Eibach spring
-Ground clearance: 5 in.
______________________________ ___________________________
1961 Ford Galaxie, 2 dr. Club Victoria, 390CID, 375hp, 4 barrel (gone)


John I ave a very good kit lots of members here have used it.

[Bluerauder]

Even though you're from Virginia, are you saying that you were in the area of the New England Dragway located in New Hampshire?
John,
We had 9 Marauders (7 black, 1 blue and 1 silver) that ran at Mason-Dixon Dragway last Saturday in Hagerstown, MD. Another thread "Drag Racers" tells the whole story on that event. :D

[Marauderjack]

Mike,

Are you saying that if the car is in O/D with the TC locked and you floor it you are apt to break something?? I have passed under these conditions and it felt like the TC did not unlock making the downshift and subsequent upshift pretty harsh!! :o

Just wondering if you or someone can elaborate?? :confused:

Marauderjack :cool:

[SergntMac]

John and I had a nice talk this afternoon, here's a few notes...

It's been known for a while now that if you're going to go WOT from crusing on the highway in OD, shut the OD off before you nail it. Otherwise, you will eventually pop the intermediate clutch pack "C" clip, which isn't good. There are no symptoms, you'll drive on without notice until your OD burns up, and it will be a full tranny rebuild. That's where the spiral lock retainer comes in, as Ford Nut mentioned above. The good news is, Dennis has the correct rebuild kit with improved parts, addressing several issues all at once.

Another issue is John's present problem, broken stub shaft. The OEM is rather durable for normal applications, after all the 4R70W was originally developed for truck applications. But, keep in mind that John's pushing another 100+ HP to his rear wheels, and he has improved control arms in place which in this case, serve double duty as traction bars. More power in, more resistance against the power out, and something in between will give.

I'm not surprised either. When you mod any car like we do these MMs, weak spots will surface, and almost anywhere, it's the nature of the game. Just recently, Lidio blew an axle at the track, that must have been his first weak link after his power met the resistance of his traction. Zack and I both have blown our trannies, maybe from the OD downshift issue, maybe from jacking downshift pump pressures electronically, maybe just a Monday/Friday build thingy, who knows? I blew my rear end apart some time ago, as others here have. My point is, mod a car, and things will break, it goes with the game.

Added note, the DynaTech MMC driveshaft from Dennis is quite beefy, and should endure the rigors of serious drag racing. I'm sure Hell-Boy will confirm that. But, any of y'all racing your MMs with any mods, get a drive shaft loop. They are under 100 bucks, and surely much cheaper than a broken neck...IMHO.

[Lidio]

The 4R70W trans in the MM can handle a lot of power even when the trans is totally stock other then some sort of firmer shifting upgrades like through chip/flash tuning, with a shift kit or both.

What usually happens is that most guys don’t tune or program the computer to keep the converter unlocked in 2nd or 3rd like I do.
Even when it’s a performance tune/chip… people/tuners tend to just play with spark and turn the fan on earlier and maybe make the trans shift a little harder, but they always seem to leave the stock converter lock-up programming. I’ve seen this with almost all tuners.

When 4R70W transmission’s shift from 2nd to 3rd, or 3rd to 4th. The converter is still locked but the computer slips, or briefly unlocks the converter just a little bit when these upshifts occur, so as not to make for an overly harsh/clunky shift.
But when the trans has had a shift kit installed, some times the little bit of slip or unlock that the computer tries to do during a shift, doesn’t happen enough because the line pressure in the trans has been raised above stock due to the shift kit. This can make for a very harsh 2-3 shift and usually can lead to a broken stub shaft in high horse applications. The stub shaft is what all the power goes through in a 4R70W for 3rd and 4th gear. I’ve actually found that after market stub shafts are worse then stock because they’re too hard and don’t have any torsion in them and just snap, instead the stock one will give a little and survive better.

For some reason I get a lot of static about not letting the converter lock until 4th gear only at speeds greater then 60MPH… People who drive cars with my philosophy of how torque converter lock-up should be, absolutely love it, but others with some sort of engineering ties to auto companies think its not cool. Either way I’ve been doing it for over 10 years on many Fords before the Marauder came along and I seem to be getting some serious life out of my own and countless customer 4R70W’s that are stock and/or the unit that came with the car before a rebuild/replacement.

A real short term failure tends to lean toward a factory assembled screw up I’d say but when they only go 15K miles to 25K behind a mild to medium HP set up…. I’d say the lock-up thing could be a potential cause for some problems. I’ve worked with tons of AOD-E and 4R70W equipped Fords. It’s my favorite overdrive trans, its actually my favorite all around rear drive automatic in general. Better then C-4’s and C-6’s in some ways.
Sadly the new ’05 Mustang now comes with a physically smaller 5-speed automatic trans that at a glance seems OK. But it will never take the punishment that the 4R70W and AOD-E’s were able to take. The new ’05 Automatic Mustang finally runs as good as the stick car and the ’05 Mustang will probably now finally make having an automatic V-8 Mustang look good and sell more then ever in my opinion. But the new 5-speed auto is not going to take well to 200-300 more horsepower which is coming place these days when their only born with 250-300HP.

If you know me the way my local customers and friends do… you’d see how much I hate stick shift Mustangs. They always have a clutch/trans related problem of some kind when your mildly abusive. And the average guy with a high RWHP car most of the time never seems to be able to get it down the track up to its full potential. They always make 4 mistakes at the ¼ mile: 1... launches and three poor up-shifts, four things that make a stick car always look bad at the drag strip unless you’re a “hero” stick driver. Believe me when I go to the drags and even on the streets… very few get it right ever!! Sorry… off topic.

The way I set up lock-up for the last few years, and believe me I work on lots of automatic Ford’s… I have very few problems with up to 600+ RWHP on totally streetable cars.
I truly believe that getting rid of the quirkiness of the lock-up during shifts is a contributing factor to making a 4R70W live in these environments.



Thanks

[CRUZTAKER]

I am running Lidio's program at his suggestion.

I am very hard on my car, currently at 25k miles.

*I never womp on the WOT from a dead start with the OD on.
*I never womp on the WOT at any driving speeds with the OD on.
*I never abruptly slow down from high cruising speeds without hitting the OD off button first.
*I took Lidio's advice, and went with HIS programming philosophy....much to my personal difference.

*Any longer.

When I opened my tranny for the first time at about 13,000, I found the clutch bands, particularly the od band....COOKED.

I learned how to drive this car from members here that learned the hard way.
Took more experienced individuals advice against my die hard beliefs.

Other than a J-MOD, and the Stallion, I have done nothing more to my tranny other than learn how to treat it abusively correct.:P

[Tallboy]

I am running Lidio's program at his suggestion.

I am very hard on my car, currently at 25k miles.

*I never womp on the WOT from a dead start with the OD on.
*I never womp on the WOT at any driving speeds with the OD on.
*I never abruptly slow down from high cruising speeds without hitting the OD off button first.
*I took Lidio's advice, and went with HIS programming philosophy....much to my personal difference.

*Any longer.

When I opened my tranny for the first time at about 13,000, I found the clutch bands, particularly the od band....COOKED.

I learned how to drive this car from members here that learned the hard way.
Took more experienced individuals advice against my die hard beliefs.

Other than a J-MOD, and the Stallion, I have done nothing more to my tranny other than learn how to treat it abusively correct.:P
"abusively correct?" love it!!!:D i, too was told to take it out of overdrive before "correctly abusing" it. [see, i can't stop!!!]:rofl:

[sailsmen]

Just today the OD in the Trans on my wife's E150 failed. This is the second trans. The first one went at 15K, this one only has 35K on it. :mad2:

No cargo hauling and no trailering! :(

[SergntMac]

Thanks
No...Thank you, Lidio, for another delightful and 411 heavy discussion on your tuning philosophy. If I drew you into this discussion with my name dropping, I apologize. I was just talking facts anyone could read here, K?

I am running Lidio's program.../...Other than a J-MOD, and the Stallion, I have done nothing more to my tranny other than learn how to treat it abusively correct.
Likewise, Barry, one rebuild here that generated all the BS on-line advice in the world, but only one guy who said "c'mere." He fixed everything sick, and shut off everything else, and I have nothing but praise for him at this time.

Once again, y'all...If you're not into "abusively correct driving," don't sweat this news?

[John F. Russo]

After talking to a number of people and reading comments on this site, I've decided to go with the Reinhart transmission upgrade and the coolant kit. Also, since I have my transmission apart I can install inexpensively the additional cooling needed to keep those cylinders that have marginal cooling properly cooled.

I'm not a knowledgeable person in racing and engine area. But I'm learning! Right now, I'm much better as a driver. So I depend upon others to guide me.

THe following is taken from another thread (See Reinhart vendor section, '658 RWHP on a stock motor' for that details the coolant mod upgrade by Dennis:
"Here is a picture of the back of the engine and the freeze plugs, as you can see this would be very difficult with the engine in the car. But it could be done. The marauder unlike the Cobra motors has the one water outlet fiting on the passenger head, so water comes out of the passenger head then flows through the heater core and back out of the heater core into the heater a hose that is conected to a rigid line that runs down the intake valey into the back of the water pump. The marauder has no cross over in the back of the head and no water flow out of either head as shown in the below picture. Now if you look at this picture water flows out of the rigid tube on the right side into the heater core then out and through a heater hise into a rigid line that runs down the head on the passenger side ito a hose that connects to the front crossover pipe. The easiest time to do this modification is when you do the transmission upgrade while thr transmission is out his is a piece of cake.

Now if you look at the pictures below you can clearly see that you will have complete water flow out both heads, this will dramaticly decrease cylinder tempratures wich will decrease spark knock, and may may make possible to run more timing wich will equate to more useable RWHP."





--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

[MARAUDER S/C #5]

Don't know on the cost, but a number of the Souther fellows can put you in tocuh with them. I supposed you could ship yoru tranny down to them in teh ATL for service and have it shipped back if that is the route you want to take.Whats Souther? tocuh? yoru? teh? :cool:

[BruteForce]

Whats Souther? tocuh? yoru? teh? :cool:

If you're going to spellcheck the entire site you'd better pack a lunch. :rolleyes:

[martyo]

Whats Souther? tocuh? yoru? teh? :cool:

Rick, sometimes it takes a while for my medication to kick in.

[CRUZTAKER]

Rick, sometimes it takes a while for my medication to kick in.
...like HE wouldn't know that...:P

[martyo]

...like HE wouldn't know that...:P

Two points go to Barry! :P

[MARAUDER S/C #5]

I'm medicating myself right now :beer: :bandit:

[John F. Russo]

Help! How do I post an image to my text?

c:\windows\desktop\DSCN0940.jp g

[Dr Caleb]

Help! How do I post an image to my text?

c:\windows\desktop\DSCN0940.jp g

You have to upload the photo - you can't post an image link, because only you can see your Desktop! ;)

[John F. Russo]

You have to upload the photo - you can't post an image link, because only you can see your Desktop! ;)


How do you upload?

[Dr Caleb]

How do you upload?

When you hit 'reply', under the little window where you type, there is "additional options". In there is "Manage Attachments" button. "Browse" then "upload". You'll see ;)

[MM03MOK]

How do you upload?John - when you respond to a post using "Post Reply" or "Reply" there's a section that says "Attach Files" below the text window.

Click on "Manage Attachments."

Note the list of valid file extensions.

"Browse" your computer for the file.

Click "Open" once you select your intended file.

Then click "Upload."

The file must be 100K or smaller.

Then finish your post as usual.

[Dr Caleb]

My fingers were just faster ;)

[MM03MOK]

My fingers were just faster ;)Mine looks prettier! :lol: ;)

[Dr Caleb]

Mine looks prettier! :lol: ;)

I can nethier confirm, nor deny. Odds are, though.
Plus I don't know how big RF is, nor how well he can shoot ;)

[John F. Russo]

I can nethier confirm, nor deny. Odds are, though.
Plus I don't know how big RF is, nor how well he can shoot ;)


This means nothing. I posted my reply incorrectly. See next psot.

[John F. Russo]

Thanks everyone for the help.

I'll be posting the photo shortly that shows a stub shaft from the failed transmission. The failure was caused by a metallurgical defect in the original stub shaft metal.