Cooling Mod

[Murader03]

Dennis:

Had the cooling mod installed in June while I was in your shop. It has now turned colder here in Delaware and I'm having heater woes. I can't seem to get enough heat from the heater, regardless of which mode, or temp. that is selected. The heated air also turns cool when at idle, or as the rpm starts dropping below 2K. Since I don't know how the mod was actually supposed to be installed, I looked around. One head is joined into the return line from the heater, the other is joined into the supply line. Is this the way it was to be installed? Any input would be helpful. The temp gauge reads mid range, so it appears the engine is at the correct temp.

Thanks for your help!

[MarauderMark]

Hey Bob
I have the same mod and thought i was having that problem at the first time i had to use the heat.it wouldnt get hot until it was fully warmed up and that still wasnt good until i drove it . But after that incident i havent had a problem since with the heater .but when it did happen that was the first thing that came to mind , cooling mod..You should call Dennis direct he will help you right there and then..hope you make out ok Buddy..

[DEFYANT]

Is there air in the system?

[Murader03]

Is there air in the system?

I doubt it since the mod was installed in June '04.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Dennis:

Had the cooling mod installed in June while I was in your shop. It has now turned colder here in Delaware and I'm having heater woes. I can't seem to get enough heat from the heater, regardless of which mode, or temp. that is selected. The heated air also turns cool when at idle, or as the rpm starts dropping below 2K. Since I don't know how the mod was actually supposed to be installed, I looked around. One head is joined into the return line from the heater, the other is joined into the supply line. Is this the way it was to be installed? Any input would be helpful. The temp gauge reads mid range, so it appears the engine is at the correct temp.

Thanks for your help!


Bob give me a call it may be as simple as the OAT sensor

[tmac1337]

I just had a member call me on the phone who was considering this mod and asked if I had a similar heating problem. For one I live in FL and have never turned on the heater till I tried it for him. After driving about 1 mile from my house I turned on the heater and instantly very hot air came out. It was also 83 degrees outside at the time, but the air was still very hot to make me think it was working properly. Sorry I don't live more north and freeze my ass off enough to try it out under more chilling circumstances.

[Dennis Reinhart]

First of all I need to know if the car in question has my transmission cooler on it, if the OAT sensor reading is off for example if it is showing a warmer OAT than what it realy is the heater will be effected, the rear cooling mod should not lower the heater out put because the water temp does not change that much we are just talking about better water flow out the back of the heads,

[DEFYANT]

Ah the good ole days..... In my 86 Bronco, I'd just stick a piece of cardboard in the grill.... I wouldnt do that on this car!

[FordNut]

It got cool enough to use my heater this weekend. Worked just fine, I've had the cooling mod since spring.

[Murader03]

First of all I need to know if the car in question has my transmission cooler on it, if the OAT sensor reading is off for example if it is showing a warmer OAT than what it realy is the heater will be effected, the rear cooling mod should not lower the heater out put because the water temp does not change that much we are just talking about better water flow out the back of the heads,

Dennis:
I'll give you a call later this morning. FYI, no I "Do not" have the transmission cooler. Only your cooling mod, and tranny upgrade. As far as I can tell, the OAT seems to be working okay, but we'll talk about it. What I don't understand, is why the heated air turns cool, or even cold, while at idle.

[Dennis Reinhart]

I have the kit on two cars here both heaters will run you out of the car, I would look and see if a hose is pinched, also let the car warm up and put your hands on both hoses going into the dash/heater core and see if there hot, and call me when you can.

[GordonB]

Bob/Marauder03,
What is the good/bad word on your lack of heat in your car? Was hoping you would post the outcome of your trials and dealer visit.
GordonB

[Murader03]

Bob/Marauder03,
What is the good/bad word on your lack of heat in your car? Was hoping you would post the outcome of your trials and dealer visit.
GordonB

Okay, here's the latest, good, bad, or indifferent. The temp coming off the heads is 190 deg. The hoses "do not" even get hot enough where you can't keep your hand on them. The bottom raditor hose, even setting in the servcie bay and reving the engine never really get hot. The wrenches at the dealer are going to replace the pullies, like a dummy, I didn't get my old ones from Dennis, so will have to buy new ones. Will then replace the pullies, and the thermostat with OEM stuff and try again. Until then, I'm still without heat. Don't get me wrong, I have warmth, it just won't get hot, and at idle I have nothing.

[HwyCruiser]

Head cooling mod, underdrive pulleys with upped in-gear idle for low voltage - no heat problems yet. It'll put out HOT air at any rpm / speed if I want it. We'll see when it gets really cold.

Bob,

A couple thoughts:

Have you tried just the "vent" setting? My MM's climate control seems to get a little goofy with the climate control in "automatic" when its cold out. The automatic temperature control / fan speed still works, so I've just been leaving it in vent unless I need to defrost then I manually switch it.

Also, has your svc dept pulled a vacuum on your cooling system and pressure tested it to make sure you don't have any air in the system?

- JD

[Dennis Reinhart]

Okay, here's the latest, good, bad, or indifferent. The temp coming off the heads is 190 deg. The hoses "do not" even get hot enough where you can't keep your hand on them. The bottom raditor hose, even setting in the servcie bay and reving the engine never really get hot. The wrenches at the dealer are going to replace the pullies, like a dummy, I didn't get my old ones from Dennis, so will have to buy new ones. Will then replace the pullies, and the thermostat with OEM stuff and try again. Until then, I'm still without heat. Don't get me wrong, I have warmth, it just won't get hot, and at idle I have nothing.


I have stock pullies I will overnight them to you, but I do not feel this will fix the problem, normally with UDP the car may run warmer do to the larger WP Pulley, since the pump is turning less. But lets give it a try if they think it will help

[cyclone03]

Why one Earth are these guys even looking at the pulley's?
If the thermostat is not stuck closed,then they need to pull the water pump and figure out why it's not pumping!
If your hot on top,cold on bottom the water is not flowing!

[Murader03]

Why one Earth are these guys even looking at the pulley's?
If the thermostat is not stuck closed,then they need to pull the water pump and figure out why it's not pumping!
If your hot on top,cold on bottom the water is not flowing!

Believe me, the pump was pulled. I stood over his shoulder the entire time the car was in the bay. If thermostat was stuck closed, then it would overheat, been there, done that, got a new engine for it. It's not staying warm, period, the upper hose is "Not" hot, just warm and by the time it gets to the bottom for the hose into the pump/engine, it's barely warm at all.... We'll go with their thought for now and see what happens.

[SergntMac]

Why one Earth are these guys even looking at the pulley's? If the thermostat is not stuck closed,then they need to pull the water pump and figure out why it's not pumping! If your hot on top,cold on bottom the water is not flowing!
I agree, and it seems to me that the only way to rule out the cooling mod as suspect, is to remove it, or, block it off in some manner that restores the cooling system to it's OEM state.

I'm guessing now...No leaks, no air in the system, and still no effective heat. I think the problem lies in electronics, or, cabin ductwork. That fact that the heater blows hot air under certain conditions, requires circulation. If the cooling mod was disfunctional in some manner, you wouldn't get hot air at all...IMHO.

[FordNut]

Get some clamps and squeeze the hoses shut on the cooling mod. That should eliminate that as a cause.

[FordNut]

I just had something happen to me that sounds like this problem. I went in to a store, heater was working fine. Came out about 5-10 min later and heater would only blow cold air, even though the car was up to the correct temp and all. Drove to a burger joint and it never blew warm air. Ate my burgers, came back out, and it worked fine.

Since the problem seems to always happen on Murader03's car, I suggest clamping off the hoses from the back of the heads temporarily to see if that helps. This brings something to mind. When they were installing the cooling mod on my car they had some concerns that there was nothng to ensure that both heads got equal flow of coolant. I believe they may have been onto something and some flow sort of flow restrictors should be installed in the two hoses coming from the back of the heads. I'll look into fabricating something to test this idea.

[Zack]

When they were installing the cooling mod on my car they had some concerns that there was nothng to ensure that both heads got equal flow of coolant. I believe they may have been onto something and some flow sort of flow restrictors should be installed in the two hoses coming from the back of the heads. I'll look into fabricating something to test this idea.

Im not sure we can expect an equal coolant flow rate in both heads here.
The main goal of this mod was to prevent any coolant from remaining stagnant in the back of the heads. In any case, Im eager to see what you come up with.
I had the same problem when I installed my kit, took me 2 days to get all the air out of the system. I also removed the coolant by removing the drain plug in the bottom of the block, so this could have been a contributing factor. I say there is air in the system. Let the car run for extended lengths of time at idle with the plug on the crossover tube OFF.

[RF Overlord]

I say there is air in the system. Let the car run for extended lengths of time at idle with the plug on the crossover tube OFF.

^^^what Zack said^^^

I don't have the cooling mod, but when I changed out the thermostat for the cooler one, I had trouble with air-lock...thank God Dennis was around on a Saturday to turn me on to the crossover plug. I put more coolant in there, put the plug back in only 1 or 2 turns, then started the motor. After the initial Vesuvius of coolant and air, I let the car idle for quite a while, 15 or 20 minutes as I recall, and it just kept bubbling and fizzing the whole time...I finally got tired of watching it and decided it was as good as it would get. Never had a problem since...that was Spring of '03...

[SergntMac]

Believe me, the pump was pulled. I stood over his shoulder the entire time the car was in the bay. If thermostat was stuck closed, then it would overheat, been there, done that, got a new engine for it. It's not staying warm, period, the upper hose is "Not" hot, just warm and by the time it gets to the bottom for the hose into the pump/engine, it's barely warm at all.... We'll go with their thought for now and see what happens.
Anything new on this?

[FordNut]

Im not sure we can expect an equal coolant flow rate in both heads here.
The main goal of this mod was to prevent any coolant from remaining stagnant in the back of the heads. In any case, Im eager to see what you come up with.
I had the same problem when I installed my kit, took me 2 days to get all the air out of the system. I also removed the coolant by removing the drain plug in the bottom of the block, so this could have been a contributing factor. I say there is air in the system. Let the car run for extended lengths of time at idle with the plug on the crossover tube OFF.


Anything new on this?

I know you're not asking me, but I have found some flow restrictors I plan to install. At the hardware store, they are called "thick washers" and are about 3/16" thick with a 3/8 hole and 5/8 OD. Whenever I pull my intake to put on the ported one, I'll have better access to the hoses and tee fittings so I can disconnect the two hoses that come from the heads, insert the washers, and re-assemble.

[SergntMac]

I know you're not asking me, but I have found some flow restrictors I plan to install. At the hardware store, they are called "thick washers" and are about 3/16" thick with a 3/8 hole and 5/8 OD. Whenever I pull my intake to put on the ported one, I'll have better access to the hoses and tee fittings so I can disconnect the two hoses that come from the heads, insert the washers, and re-assemble.
You're right, Nut, I wasn't asking you. Nonetheless, your improvements are important, due to your own experience. Please keep us up to date on your progress too?

[Murader03]

Had the original (new) crank and water pump pully installed yesterday along with the OEM thermostat and new belt. Wasn't really cold enough to tell on the trip home from the dealer. Should be able to tell more this weekend. Not sure of any difference but tech mentioned more heat sitting in the bay, duh! No air flow through the radiator there. I did notice the hoses both in and out of the heater core were warmer than before which is probably due to the OEM thermostat. Time will tell.

NUT....I'd also be interested in your results from the flow restrictors. Keep us informed.......

[Haggis]

Had the original (new) crank and water pump pully installed yesterday along with the OEM thermostat and new belt. Wasn't really cold enough to tell on the trip home from the dealer. Should be able to tell more this weekend. Not sure of any difference but tech mentioned more heat sitting in the bay, duh! No air flow through the radiator there. I did notice the hoses both in and out of the heater core were warmer than before which is probably due to the OEM thermostat. Time will tell.

NUT....I'd also be interested in your results from the flow restrictors. Keep us informed.......

Bob I have both the cooling mod and lower thermostat. No problem with heating the inside of the car.

[BUCKWHEAT]

I am watching all these comments and I have one simple question.

I have two of these cars, both with head cooling kits. On one the PASSENGER side heater core outlet goes to the front crossover pipe (the one with the air bleed/fill hole). That car does not make heat at the heater. The other car has the DRIVER side heater core outlet hooked to the front crossover and it makes lots of heat. Does it matter which is the inlet to the heater core and which is the outlet??

John

[FordNut]

I am watching all these comments and I have one simple question.

I have two of these cars, both with head cooling kits. On one the PASSENGER side heater core outlet goes to the front crossover pipe (the one with the air bleed/fill hole). That car does not make heat at the heater. The other car has the DRIVER side heater core outlet hooked to the front crossover and it makes lots of heat. Does it matter which is the inlet to the heater core and which is the outlet??

John
Now maybe we're onto something! Thanks for posting the observation.

[Murader03]

Okay..Here's the latest. New pullies and thermostat installed by dealer last Friday. There was a slight increase in the temp of the heated air coming from the vents, both floor and dash vents (when selected), and when driving down the road, but still not warm enough as when the cooling system was untouched. However, it still went cold at idle. Spent time at the local auto parts store on the way home form work. Got some caps to cap off the hose from the heads and the t-unions in the hoses. I now have heat the way it should be. At idle and at speed, there is more heat available then with the mod in place. So, the flow from the heads was impeading the flow into the heater core. Now to find some connectors that will kind of restrict the flow from the heads and get the mod back into the system. I don't know which side was actually causing the flow problem and may in time play with this to see. The hose on the passenger side was a royal PITA to deal with, but finally got it done. Before the mod, last winter, I was running the temp control at 72-74 in the winter months. With the mod, even at max. temp, I was never getting enough heat to blow you out of the car, fan speed was always high unless I turned it down. Now, I'm back to 72-74 degrees, the system controls the fan speed as it used to do.

[Zack]

You have air in the system, plain and simple.
Remove it and it will go away.

[Murader03]

You have air in the system, plain and simple.
Remove it and it will go away.

Had Dennis not installed the mod, I might have gone along with that statement, but. The mod was installed JUNE, not a recent change. The car went all summer and into early November before the heat problem was encountered. I would certainly think that all air would have been cleared out in over 6 months of driving. At any rate, I now have heat......

Thanks to all who made comments and suggestions. Come spring, I'll revert back to the mod.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Had Dennis not installed the mod, I might have gone along with that statement, but. The mod was installed JUNE, not a recent change. The car went all summer and into early November before the heat problem was encountered. I would certainly think that all air would have been cleared out in over 6 months of driving. At any rate, I now have heat......

Thanks to all who made comments and suggestions. Come spring, I'll revert back to the mod.


Again I have no idea why you are having this issue I know of at least a dozen people that have done this and they have not had the issues you have.

[ModMech]

Again I have no idea why you are having this issue I know of at least a dozen people that have done this and they have not had the issues you have.

OK, I searched back a ways to find a post from May by DR on this. I ahve now seen TWO different plumbing arrangements, and the ones in this thread:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10004&highlight=cooling+mod

Seem incorrect to me.

As I figure it, BOTH heads should supply the heater core, and the core outlset should split between the deaeration hose and the waterpump return, which is NOT how things are plumbed in the above thread.

Does this make sense? It would be *more* consistant with what we 2V guys have been told to do, which is to drill the left intake runner, and "T" it into the heater supply hose along with the one from the right intake, andto leave the heater return as it is (directly to the water pump).

[Dennis Reinhart]

OK, I searched back a ways to find a post from May by DR on this. I ahve now seen TWO different plumbing arrangements, and the ones in this thread:
http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=10004&highlight=cooling+mod

Seem incorrect to me.

As I figure it, BOTH heads should supply the heater core, and the core outlset should split between the deaeration hose and the waterpump return, which is NOT how things are plumbed in the above thread.

Does this make sense? It would be *more* consistant with what we 2V guys have been told to do, which is to drill the left intake runner, and "T" it into the heater supply hose along with the one from the right intake, andto leave the heater return as it is (directly to the water pump).As shown here both heads supply water to the heater core,
http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/COOLINGMOD.JPG.jpg

So am not understanding your point, again as far as I know Brian never had this problem, I believe this was a fluke for no other person has had this issue and I had help from my friend Brian on this setup, I may even have a set of instructions around of his, both he and I have sold many of these kits and I have never had this problem with any other customer, also the 2V 4.6 has one cooling tube from the factory already on the passenger head just like the older Cobras the Marauder stock has niether.

[ModMech]

As shown here both heads supply water to the heater core,
http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/COOLINGMOD.JPG.jpg

So am not understanding your point, again as far as I know Brian never had this problem, I believe this was a fluke for no other person has had this issue and I had help from my friend Brian on this setup, I may even have a set of instructions around of his, both he and I have sold many of these kits and I have never had this problem with any other customer, also the 2V 4.6 has one cooling tube from the factory already on the passenger head just like the older Cobras the Marauder stock has niether.

Please look carefully at all three photos. I LOOKS like both heads feed the core, but they DO NOT.

The hose from the left is "T"ed to the de-aeration hose (return), the hose from the right head is "T"ed into the waterpump return hose, so the flow from BOTH heads is spilt AWAY from the heater core, AND so are the return flows.

I'm NOT trying to start an arguement, just point out that photos of BOTH hose routings have been posted over time.

The proper routing, should be from my info: LH + RH > core, and core > waterpump + de-aeration.

As it is shown in the photos in the above referenced thread: LH + D-eaeration > core, RH + waterpump > core; so you have cylinder head outputs going to BOTH coare ports, and return flows FROM both ports.

[Dennis Reinhart]

I will look tomorrow for the instructions Brian sent me

[SergntMac]

Ummm...I've had the DR cooling mod for quite a while now, and I've had two episodes of overheating and "no heat." Both occurred shortly after other work was completed on the car, wherein the collant was drained and restored. Both situations were corrected by a proper and thorough "burping" of air from the cooling system. Simple problem with a simple solution...IMHO.

[Tallboy]

Carfixer installed my cooling mod a few weeks ago. No overheating, no air bubbles, no leaks. My car puts out enough heat to de-laminate the windshield.:)

[Dennis Reinhart]

Carfixer installed my cooling mod a few weeks ago. No overheating, no air bubbles, no leaks. My car puts out enough heat to de-laminate the windshield.:)
Thanks for the info

[HwyCruiser]

Ummm...I've had the DR cooling mod for quite a while now, and I've had two episodes of overheating and "no heat." Both occurred shortly after other work was completed on the car, wherein the collant was drained and restored. Both situations were corrected by a proper and thorough "burping" of air from the cooling system. Simple problem with a simple solution...IMHO.

Mac,

Could you please check to see if KB also installs the cooling mod as shown in the pic above... one side to supply and the other to return?

Mine is installed as shown and I've started to get cool air at idle also. I have a though, but don't want to muddy the waters until I've also tried to bleed the system and here back on this question. ;)

Thanks,

- JD

[SergntMac]

Mac, Could you please check to see if KB also installs the cooling mod as shown in the pic above... one side to supply and the other to return? Mine is installed as shown and I've started to get cool air at idle also. I have a though, but don't want to muddy the waters until I've also tried to bleed the system and here back on this question. ;) Thanks,
- JD
JD...Sorry to say that Kenny Brown does not install this mod. It's use is strictly an owner's decision.

[Zack]

Who cares where the hoses go to?
The point of this is to eliminate coolant from lying stagnant in the back of the heads. And anyway you route them, it will have no effect on the heater if the air is removed from the system.

[cyclone03]

I installed the mod in June.This week I've finely used the heater enough to notice windshield delamming heat myself.
Hoses routed as show above.

[ModMech]

Who cares where the hoses go to?
The point of this is to eliminate coolant from lying stagnant in the back of the heads. And anyway you route them, it will have no effect on the heater if the air is removed from the system.

Who cares how long the LCAs are either. +/- 1/8" who cares.

If you route BOTH the feed and return to a common "T", you get next to zero flow thru the core. Coolant will take the "path of least resistance", and if it can circulate back to the pump w/o going thru the core, it certainly will.

Please folks, I AM NOT flaming DR. All I tried to do was point out that photos of BOTH plumbings are floating around, and that I believe the one in this thread may not be correct. I DID NOT invent this idea, so I DO NOT know FOR SURE which is actually correct.

Dennis,

I am VERY sorry if my posts in this thread cause you any troubles!

[HwyCruiser]

Sorry Mac, my assumption. I thought I remembered seeing something at the Indy BBQ...

For discussion, here's what I've found (nothing like emperical evidence):

1) First, no air in the crossover. Took it off myself. The system was bled and pressure tested this summer by the dealer.

2) The passenger side hose is the heater core return. Hot with no call for heat, cool when the heater is one full blast.

3) Assuming #1 is correct, the pass side head is teed to the heater core return and the drivers side head is tied to the heater core supply coming from the crossover.

4) Theory: water flows from high to low pressure. Much like electricity, it also takes the path of least resistance.

The head cooling mod disturbs the equilibrium, or balance, of the cooling system. I can only assume that hot coolant is bypassing the heater core in favor for the driver's side head - or the return is being pressurized from the passenger side head. Either way, the heater core is getting less than design flow at idle.

I had the in-gear idle upped for low voltage this spring, so my effects are not as bad as Bob's. The fact that swapping the stat and pulleys had little effect until he capped off the cooling mod hoses gives more evidence:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=195467&postcount=30

What are my points?

1) If I've got air, its not in the crossover.

2) To much emperical evidence to say that UDPs + cooling mod doesn't effect heat.

3) Messing with the balance of the cooling system isn't a free game. There's people in my industry (HVAC controls) making a pretty good living making sure water flows in the right direction with balancing valves and orifies.

After all that is said, I've still got cool air at idle. Get 40 degrees or better outside, no problem. I am not saying that the cooling mod isn't a good idea. Waiting to see what Brian has to say on the recommended install.

EDIT:

ModMech,

I posted before I read your response. I think we're thinking along the same track here. And neither of us are trying to flame DR here. We all talk like this across the internet. :D

- JD

[Dennis Reinhart]

John I am looking to see if I can find the instructions, and I do not feel you are flaming you are asking good questions what is odd is why is not every one having this problem since we all have installed them the same way. I have two cars here the heat will run you out. Zack is in very cold weather so is Mac, there heaters work fine, will get this figured out, and I will follw up on this

[maraudernkc]

I just Installed the mod on my 2004 MM about two weeks ago and it did nit work well at first. There was air in the line. It is now 25 dgrees here now and the heater will blow you out of the car. The mod did not effect my car. I hope you get it figured out.




Sorry Mac, my assumption. I thought I remembered seeing something at the Indy BBQ...

For discussion, here's what I've found (nothing like emperical evidence):

1) First, no air in the crossover. Took it off myself. The system was bled and pressure tested this summer by the dealer.

2) The passenger side hose is the heater core return. Hot with no call for heat, cool when the heater is one full blast.

3) Assuming #1 is correct, the pass side head is teed to the heater core return and the drivers side head is tied to the heater core supply coming from the crossover.

4) Theory: water flows from high to low pressure. Much like electricity, it also takes the path of least resistance.

The head cooling mod disturbs the equilibrium, or balance, of the cooling system. I can only assume that hot coolant is bypassing the heater core in favor for the driver's side head - or the return is being pressurized from the passenger side head. Either way, the heater core is getting less than design flow at idle.

I had the in-gear idle upped for low voltage this spring, so my effects are not as bad as Bob's. The fact that swapping the stat and pulleys had little effect until he capped off the cooling mod hoses gives more evidence:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=195467&postcount=30

What are my points?

1) If I've got air, its not in the crossover.

2) To much emperical evidence to say that UDPs + cooling mod doesn't effect heat.

3) Messing with the balance of the cooling system isn't a free game. There's people in my industry (HVAC controls) making a pretty good living making sure water flows in the right direction with balancing valves and orifies.

After all that is said, I've still got cool air at idle. Get 40 degrees or better outside, no problem. I am not saying that the cooling mod isn't a good idea. Waiting to see what Brian has to say on the recommended install.

EDIT:

ModMech,

I posted before I read your response. I think we're thinking along the same track here. And neither of us are trying to flame DR here. We all talk like this across the internet. :D

- JD

[HwyCruiser]

I just Installed the mod on my 2004 MM about two weeks ago and it did nit work well at first. There was air in the line. It is now 25 dgrees here now and the heater will blow you out of the car. The mod did not effect my car. I hope you get it figured out.

Greg,

Even one more reason I want to see you're MM!

Again, the only time I have had issues is when it's in the 20's, and that's only been a couple mornings so far. Anyways, after we here from Brian I plan on taking the MM in to get pressure tested and "burped" professionally. I know I always feel better afterwards. :D

- JD

[Dennis Reinhart]

I talked to my friend Brian, and he has never had a problem with this, I have this installed in three cars here, its been in the twenty's and these cars heaters will run you out so what is most confusing is why if all the cars are routed the same two or three will not heat.

So this is what I am going to do, I have a brand new complete built motor on a stand, here at the shop, this motor has the Meziere electric water pump installed, I am going to fill the block with water and dye and run power to the Meziere water pump this will duplicate water flow in the car.

I am going to check water flow through the heads and I even have a heater core connected I have used clear hose to watch the water flow and if it appears it is not flowing right I will make a change if needed, John G suggested we run the cooling tubes together and I am in agreement with this if this will cure the problem, again with out having a car that has this problem is tough to diagnose, so I will work on this week, and I will let every one know what we have found out.

[Donny Carlson]

I haven't followed this thread closely, so if this sounds stupid, my apology.

Has anyone considered the problem could be with the control unit in the dash? I recently saw a control unit replaced in a MM over at Team Ford which was causing the heater/ac system to work improperly. The description I heard was similar to what has been discussed here.

[Dennis Reinhart]

I haven't followed this thread closely, so if this sounds stupid, my apology.

Has anyone considered the problem could be with the control unit in the dash? I recently saw a control unit replaced in a MM over at Team Ford which was causing the heater/ac system to work improperly. The description I heard was similar to what has been discussed here.
Donny it does not sound stupid this is exactly what I thought of but two members have had there cars at the dealer, so every one knows the blend air door is comtrolled by a DC servo and yes this could cause the problem but again I wiould have figured the techs would have rulled this out. So I am ata a loss but I am going to try this test this week, wait till you see what Santa brought me on the engine stand:beer: :banana:

[RF Overlord]

So this is what I am going to do, I have a brand new complete built motor on a stand, here at the shop, this motor has the Meziere electric water pump installed, I am going to fill the block with water and dye and run power to the Meziere water pump this will duplicate water flow in the car.

I am going to check water flow through the heads and I even have a heater core connected I have used clear hose to watch the water flow and if it appears it is not flowing right I will make a change if needed...and I will let every one know what we have found out.

This is a perfect example of a vendor who cares about customer satisfaction... :up:

[Zack]

When I installed my cooling mod, it took me 2 days to get the air out of the system.
Here is what I have noticed on 2 MM's now.....
If the temp gauge points even the slightest bit above 20mph, there is air in the system.
If it reads dead on 20, it will work fine.

[HwyCruiser]

When I installed my cooling mod, it took me 2 days to get the air out of the system.
Here is what I have noticed on 2 MM's now.....
If the temp gauge points even the slightest bit above 20mph, there is air in the system.
If it reads dead on 20, it will work fine.

Zack, please elaborate on the procedure you use to bleed all of the air out of the cooling system.

[sailsmen]

I have the cooling mod and my heater works.

I have noticed that when I put it on floor/defrost it will blow out cool air. If I put it on Auto it will blow out hot.

[valkyrie]

I have the same issue with the heater with the cooling mod. At idle it does not heat. It seems to be okay when driving.

In bleeding is that just opening the bleed valve and filling it with coolant?

[Zack]

After you shut the car off for the night (provided the engine was HOT), take the coolant reservoir cap OFF and leave it off overnight.
This was one of the tricks that helped me remedy the air in the system.
You will know if anything happened if the coolant level drops by morning.
It is ok to do this a few days in a row, just leave your hood up so you dont forget to put the cap back on!

[Zack]

If the coolant does indeed go down, DO NOT add coolant into the reservoir!
Add it in the crossover tube.

[Cobra25]

I have the heating mod and in my car the heat works fine. No problems, dont really use the heat much in Florida but it is nice to know it works. Sorry to hear some of you are having a problem.

[cyclone03]

[
So this is what I am going to do, I have a brand new complete built motor on a stand, here at the shop, this motor has the Meziere electric water pump installed, I am going to fill the block with water and dye and run power to the Meziere water pump this will duplicate water flow in the car.

I am going to check water flow through the heads and I even have a heater core connected I have used clear hose to watch the water flow and if it appears it is not flowing right I will make a change if needed, John G suggested we run the cooling tubes together and I am in agreement with this if this will cure the problem, again with out having a car that has this problem is tough to diagnose, so I will work on this week, and I will let every one know what we have found out.[/QUOTE]

Dennis any update on the coolent flow?

[valkyrie]

[
So this is what I am going to do, I have a brand new complete built motor on a stand, here at the shop, this motor has the Meziere electric water pump installed, I am going to fill the block with water and dye and run power to the Meziere water pump this will duplicate water flow in the car.

I am going to check water flow through the heads and I even have a heater core connected I have used clear hose to watch the water flow and if it appears it is not flowing right I will make a change if needed, John G suggested we run the cooling tubes together and I am in agreement with this if this will cure the problem, again with out having a car that has this problem is tough to diagnose, so I will work on this week, and I will let every one know what we have found out.

Dennis any update on the coolent flow?[/QUOTE]

Dennis any update. I need help.

[valkyrie]

When I installed my cooling mod, it took me 2 days to get the air out of the system.
Here is what I have noticed on 2 MM's now.....
If the temp gauge points even the slightest bit above 20mph, there is air in the system.
If it reads dead on 20, it will work fine.

I tried bleeding the air out of the crossover multiple times. Does anyone have any other suggestions. I can't get any heat at idle.

Can anyone tell me if this issue could cause damage to the vehicle. If it is just no heat at idle I can live with this while I figure out the problem. I just don't want to have long term damage.

[valkyrie]

:bump: :bump: :bump:


I tried bleeding the air out of the crossover multiple times. Does anyone have any other suggestions. I can't get any heat at idle.

Can anyone tell me if this issue could cause damage to the vehicle. If it is just no heat at idle I can live with this while I figure out the problem. I just don't want to have long term damage.

[Dennis Reinhart]

I am installing clear hoses today so we can show cooling flow through thhe block again I am not sure why only a few people have had this lack of heat when 90 % of the people that have installed this kit have had no problems but I am trying to figure this out.

[Kelly]

Dennis, my Marauder has the same issue. Kelly



I am installing clear hoses today so we can show cooling flow through thhe block again I am not sure why only a few people have had this lack of heat when 90 % of the people that have installed this kit have had no problems but I am trying to figure this out.

[Dennis Reinhart]

I understand Kelly and again I will post what we find when and some pictures we may re'route the hoses and see if this resolves the issue

[ahess77]

I modified Dennis's cooling modification as shown in the pictures. When I had the trans out I decided I didn't want to risk pinching one of the hoses when reinstalling everything (and I never wanted to have to replace those hoses, ever!), so I did some copper plumbing in place of the hoses.

In doing this I took the LH and RH flows from the back of the heads and combined them PRIOR to attaching to only the heater core return. My heat is normal (and it's been -4F up here).

Just thought I'd give you all some more information.

[blackf0rk]

I don't have any mods on ym car and at idel my car doesn't put out heat. This happened about two times, and took it to the dealer. They couldn't replicate the problem, hasn;t happened since.....

???

[Krytin]

I modified Dennis's cooling modification as shown in the pictures. When I had the trans out I decided I didn't want to risk pinching one of the hoses when reinstalling everything (and I never wanted to have to replace those hoses, ever!), so I did some copper plumbing in place of the hoses.

In doing this I took the LH and RH flows from the back of the heads and combined them PRIOR to attaching to only the heater core return. My heat is normal (and it's been -4F up here).

Just thought I'd give you all some more information.
Nice work! After "arm-chair quarterbacking" this situation myself, I believe you have found a fine solution!

[Dennis Reinhart]

OK I went and got clear coolant hoses today, I connected the upper crossover pipe to the lower inlet pipe on my Mod Motor which we have on the engine stand.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/FRONT.JPG

I restricted the flow to simulate a thermostat.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/LF.JPG


I also connected the outlet 5/8 fitting in the front to the rear of the cooling Mod. I am going to try and explain what we determined.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1107036119-REAR.jpg

Water flows out the front of the cross over pipe it flows through the radiator upper radiator hose out the bottom back in the engine, water also flows out the 5/8 fitting on the passenger side back to the heater core.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/RFSIDE.jpg

Water also flows out the small 1/4 nipple over to the PCV inlet (this warm water is to reduce carbon buildup from the PCV oil deposits in the intake) the water goes out the intake it then flows out to the pipe in the rear that feeds water to the back of the pump this tube runs under the intake. Now normally the lower clear hose on the T fitting goes to the heater core what I did was install a clear piece of hose in the place of the heater core to see water flow.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/LR.JPG

So we filled the block with coolant I wired up the Meziere electric water pump and it took a full five minutes to get all the air out, after that we had constant water flow in the simulated heater core, so again I am not sure why three or four people are having issues and a lot of others are not I am sorry for not getting back to yo sooner, I am leaving this on my motor and I am going to try a few changes I will keep every one posted. I appreciate every ones patients.

[BruteForce]

Hey a new mod kit! See through water hoses. :D

[martyo]

[S]o again I am not sure why three or four people are having issues and a lot of others are not.

Dennis: I was having this problem with my car in the early days, long before I began any mods at all. While I do not know what causes the loss of heat problem, I do not think that the cooling mod is the culprit.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Yes at four Dollars a foot, thanks Martyo, I will try and get a fix for this

[Joe Walsh]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but is anyone still having heater problems??

Now that the weather is cold, I have tried to get some heat out of my heater core but get nothing but cold air...

I installed Dennis' Cooling Mod Kit with my new engine and now I can barely get ANY heat out of my HVAC unit.
I can sometimes get a very slight increase in temperature above ambient at about 1500-1800 rpm.

Here is what I've checked:

1: Cooling system is completely topped off with 'Gold' coolant, right up to the point that coolant is dribbling out of the filler port on the crossover tube.
2: Mixer door is working (I'm pretty sure), because I had the HVAC controls run a self-diagnostic test and all came up clean.
3: Meziere water pump is definitely moving coolant throughout the engine.
4: No stuck thermostat...Engine warms up and runs at the correct temperature @180 degrees.

This weekend, I am going to put Vise-grips* on the Cooling Mod hoses to see if this changes my heater's temperature output.
*to simulate an unmodified system

Having read most of the threads about Dennis' Cooling Mod and the coolant flow path through our DOHC engines, I am seriously considering running both of the Cooling Mod hoses together, then running them DIRECTLY to the front crossover tube. I would get a fitting welded onto the front crossover tube to accomodate the additional 5/8" hose.
This would leave the heater core coolant flow untouched AND, more importantly, keep the hot cylinder head coolant from being returned to the water pump and then back into the engine block without ever passing through the radiator.
Any thoughts??
Any other tests I should perform??

[FordNut]

Sorry to resurrect this thread but is anyone still having heater problems??

Now that the weather is cold, I have tried to get some heat out of my heater core but get nothing but cold air...

I installed Dennis' Cooling Mod Kit with my new engine and now I can barely get ANY heat out of my HVAC unit.
I can sometimes get a very slight increase in temperature above ambient at about 1500-1800 rpm.

Here is what I've checked:

1: Cooling system is completely topped off with 'Gold' coolant, right up to the point that coolant is dribbling out of the filler port on the crossover tube.
2: Mixer door is working (I'm pretty sure), because I had the HVAC controls run a self-diagnostic test and all came up clean.
3: Meziere water pump is definitely moving coolant throughout the engine.
4: No stuck thermostat...Engine warms up and runs at the correct temperature @180 degrees.

This weekend, I am going to put Vise-grips* on the Cooling Mod hoses to see if this changes my heater's temperature output.
*to simulate an unmodified system

Having read most of the threads about Dennis' Cooling Mod and the coolant flow path through our DOHC engines, I am seriously considering running both of the Cooling Mod hoses together, then running them DIRECTLY to the front crossover tube. I would get a fitting welded onto the front crossover tube to accomodate the additional 5/8" hose.
This would leave the heater core coolant flow untouched AND, more importantly, keep the hot cylinder head coolant from being returned to the water pump and then back into the engine block without ever passing through the radiator.
Any thoughts??
Any other tests I should perform??
My heat works fine, but I added flow restrictors inline with the hoses. Running them directly to the crossover tube should be good but I still like having flow restrictors in the lines.

[DEFYANT]

I modified Dennis's cooling modification as shown in the pictures. When I had the trans out I decided I didn't want to risk pinching one of the hoses when reinstalling everything (and I never wanted to have to replace those hoses, ever!), so I did some copper plumbing in place of the hoses.

In doing this I took the LH and RH flows from the back of the heads and combined them PRIOR to attaching to only the heater core return. My heat is normal (and it's been -4F up here).

Just thought I'd give you all some more information.

I like this solution ^^^

If my transmission ever has to come out, this is what I would do.

My .02

[Dan]

Dennis,

Could the ambient temperatures in which you are testing the car be inserting a flaw into your testing methodology?

Aren't most of the people with this problem having it with a much colder ambient air temp?

Just curious. I don't know the answers.

Best,

Dan


OK I went and got clear coolant hoses today, I connected the upper crossover pipe to the lower inlet pipe on my Mod Motor which we have on the engine stand.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/FRONT.JPG

I restricted the flow to simulate a thermostat.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/LF.JPG


I also connected the outlet 5/8 fitting in the front to the rear of the cooling Mod. I am going to try and explain what we determined.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1107036119-REAR.jpg

Water flows out the front of the cross over pipe it flows through the radiator upper radiator hose out the bottom back in the engine, water also flows out the 5/8 fitting on the passenger side back to the heater core.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/RFSIDE.jpg

Water also flows out the small 1/4 nipple over to the PCV inlet (this warm water is to reduce carbon buildup from the PCV oil deposits in the intake) the water goes out the intake it then flows out to the pipe in the rear that feeds water to the back of the pump this tube runs under the intake. Now normally the lower clear hose on the T fitting goes to the heater core what I did was install a clear piece of hose in the place of the heater core to see water flow.

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/LR.JPG

So we filled the block with coolant I wired up the Meziere electric water pump and it took a full five minutes to get all the air out, after that we had constant water flow in the simulated heater core, so again I am not sure why three or four people are having issues and a lot of others are not I am sorry for not getting back to yo sooner, I am leaving this on my motor and I am going to try a few changes I will keep every one posted. I appreciate every ones patients.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Dennis,

Could the ambient temperatures in which you are testing the car be inserting a flaw into your testing methodology?

Aren't most of the people with this problem having it with a much colder ambient air temp?

Just curious. I don't know the answers.

Best,

Dan

Well when we did this test on the engine stand we found no restriccted water flow through the simulated heater core, the most puzzling issue about this is that every one that has done this has followed the same pictures and instructions and the biggest majority of those kits installed have had no heater problems at all, so I am not sure what is happening here with out having a car here with this problem to T/S, what I did find on one car was the OAT sensor was mounted in front of our transmission cooler and the heat from it was throwing off the settings in the car, the OAT was showing 15 degrees higher than the actual outside air temp

[Bradley G]

Could someone post a picture of the oat sensor?

[Agent M79]

Oat Sensor:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/showcase/files/1/0/9/6/oatsensor.jpg

[DEFYANT]

Oat Sensor:

http://img.cryst.bbk.ac.uk/www/vickers/cps/0506070014.JPG

:eek:
:rofl: :laugh: :laugh: :laugh:

Gaddam now that is fluckin funny!!

[MENINBLK]

After you shut the car off for the night (provided the engine was HOT), take the coolant reservoir cap OFF and leave it off overnight.
This was one of the tricks that helped me remedy the air in the system.
You will know if anything happened if the coolant level drops by morning.
It is ok to do this a few days in a row, just leave your hood up so you dont forget to put the cap back on!

After reading this thread, I believe that Zack and Dennis have brought out a GOOD POINT.

IT TAKES A LONG TIME TO RID THE COOLING SYSTEM OF AIR...

I had my Thermostat changed about 20,000 miles ago.
Recently, I started hearing a gurgling sound coming from under the passenger side
of the dash, after starting my Marauder in the morning.
This is 20,000+ miles LATER...

One morning, I opened the Bleeder Valve on the crossover tube and proceeded to pour
a whole quart of antifreeze into the tube.
After filling the tube, I locked the bleeder back on and opened the reservoir and added a pint to it.
Since then the gurgling is gone and the heat is hot as hell. :fire:

So fill your coolant the way Zack says...

1 - On a COLD ENGINE, Fill the crossover tube first BEFORE opening reservoir.
2 - Lock Crossover tube and then open Reservoir and add coolant to COLD FILL Line...

You are saying that after a few months the air should be all out of the system...
Well how does the air know that it has to go to the LOWER HOSE, to get to the reservoir?
Have you actually looked at where the reservoir connects to the cooling system ?

Air will STAY in the cooling system until you bleed it off.
And unless you get it out of the cooling system, you risk
burning up your DOHC 32V Modular V8.

[Dave Compson]

Its been so long, i have this mod sitting here in my garage and need to finally do it. So, does anybody have the link to dennis' instructions and the photos? Or, is it pretty straitforward? I remember it being pretty simple to do.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Could someone post a picture of the oat sensor?


http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/session/00-00-1133794540-DSC00504.jpg

[SergntMac]

The thought to keep in mind, is that not all the air comes out in one burping. It will take several sessions of running hotter than normal (above 210-215 degrees) to move the air bubbles around to an exit point, and each session will take longer because of less air present. Moreover, the OEM temp gauge won't be much help in determining what's hot, an aftermarket gauge of some sort will expedite this. The last time Zack and I did this, it took about two hours of heating up the engine, and letting it cool down again, but it can be done in one afternoon.

[Dennis Reinhart]

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/COOLINGMOD.JPG.jpg

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/COOLINGMOD1.JPG.jpg

http://web.iwebcenters.com/reinhartautomotive/images/COOLINGMODBOTHHEADS.JPG.jpg

[SergntMac]

Pictures are worth a thousand words...Thanks Dennis!