Which Supercharger? [Archive] - MercuryMarauder.net Forums

BillyGman

11-09-2004, 09:33 PM

For the sake of those who are unknowledgeable about high performance engines and about S/Cing in general, who might also be considering the possibility of S/Cing their cars, if I were you, I wouldn't merely pay attention to any vendor's claims, nor to any vendor's customer's claims w/out regard to sources that are neutral on this topic. And that's why I decided to purchase and read three books on the subject of Supercharging STREET cars before I made my choice. The best book that I can recommend to people on this topic is titled "Supercharged!" written by Corky Bell.

And for another UNBIASED viewpoint on supercharging your STREET vehicle allow me to also suggest the article in a car magazine such as the one that's been posted in a "sticky" thread by one of the moderators of this board. And infact here is the conclusion that the magazine article draws, and this is a direct quote about how the choice of S/Cers was summed-up by that article. Look at what it says concerning different S/Cers in different vehicles:

"Today there is a huge number of blower kits available to Mustang and Lightning owners. The choices can be overwhelming, but we've found that picking the right blower requires nothing more than a little research on your part. The key to finding the best one for your combination is to select a unit that can supply the most efficient level of boost in the rpm range that you're building your engine for. In addition, consider the combination as a whole. For instance, heavier vehicles need more torque than lighter ones do and that's why the Eaton, Magnum Powers or Kenne Bell is the best choice for a 4,500-pound Lightning. But a Paxton, Powerdyne, Procharger, or Vortech may be the way to go for your 3,000-pound LX".

Let me remind you that the above words are NOT my words, they're the words of "MUSCLE MUSTANGS & FAST FORDS" magazine.

MikesMerc

11-09-2004, 10:07 PM

"Today there is a huge number of blower kits available to Mustang and Lightning owners. The choices can be overwhelming, but we've found that picking the right blower requires nothing more than a little research on your part. The key to finding the best one for your combination is to select a unit that can supply the most efficient level of boost in the rpm range that you're building your engine for. In addition, consider the combination as a whole. For instance, heavier vehicles need more torque than lighter ones do and that's why the Eaton, Magnum Powers or Kenne Bell is the best choice for a 4,500-pound Lightning. But a Paxton, Powerdyne, Procharger, or Vortech may be the way to go for your 3,000-pound LX".
[/b]

That's good, unbiased info BillyG.

Like I recently said in another thread, I just don't understand how some folks want to "cover up" the basic truths about blower selection. It's either to make themselves feel better about their own misguided purchase, or so as not to step on vendor's toes. Either way, it is quite laughable the way some folks are in denial about the best blower fit for the application. Of course there are other considerations which may make someone opt for a centrifugal blower for thier MM, but as long as they know they are sacrficing the best "natural" fit for other reasons...so be it.

*sigh* picking a positive displacment blower for a heavy car lacking cubic inches is just sooooo basic, this arguement frustrates me to no end. I cringe everytime I see a newbie mislead by a statement that says all blowers make a good choice and that one is not better than the other. Nothing could be further from the truth!

stevengerard

11-09-2004, 10:23 PM

BillyGman

11-09-2004, 10:26 PM

Mike, I fully agree w/you, but I want to keep this thread to itself. if others want to make certain claims in other threads, then I guess that it's their perogative to do so. That doesn't neccessarily make their claims accurate, but that's their biz, so i want to try to leave other threads out of this. My motive for starting this thread is to help inform and guide newcomers as well as veterans who haven't yet S/ced their Marauders, and are seriously thinking of doing so just as you and I, and others have. I have no stakes whatsoever in this thread nor which S/Cer choice other board members make just as I know that you don't either. Thanks for your input thus far my friend.

BillyGman

11-09-2004, 10:31 PM

The same article talks about the importance of the full torque curve and how you just can't compare peak numbers, the roots and twin screw types displayed the best of that as well. The turbo's and Vortec's were the highest at the peak. How and where do you want your power to be, I like mine linear farther up the RPM range.Well then your argument (if you have one) is also with the magazine and not just w/me. So you're saying that the magazine article is wrong about it being more effecient to use a roots blower in a heavy car (which BTW a Marauder is)?? Statements like yours sound like the implication is that roots type blowers will not increase your engine's HP in the high RPM range, and that just isn't true. For example, even w/the 4.56 gears I have in the rear end of my Marauder, I've noticed a very significant increase of acceleration past 100 MPH w/the roots S/Cer that the Trilogy kit has.

stevengerard

11-09-2004, 10:56 PM

Well then your argument (if you have one) is also with the magazine and not just w/me. So you're saying that the magazine article is wrong about it being more effecient to use a roots blower in a heavy car (which BTW a Marauder is)?? Statements like yours sound like the implication is that roots type blowers will not increase your engine's HP in the high range, and that just isn't true. For example, even w/the 4.56 gears I have in the rear end of my Marauder, I've noticed a very significant increase of acceleration past 100 MPH w/the roots S/Cer that the Trilogy kit has.

I have no argument, read my response, I'm agreeing with you both and the magazine, I'm just saying I like knowing that I have even better response on the top end. Yes the roots will increase acceleration at the high end but based on the same principles of the roots giving more torque at the low end why would you say the Vortec won't deliver even more on the high end. And for the same reason you say you notice an increase at the upper end "even with 4.56" gears I will notice a "significant increase of acceleration" from 0 - 60 even with 3.55 gears and a Vortec. No kidding! Your roots will increase top end some just like a Vortec will increase bottom end some. I tried Trilogy number 1, I liked Mac's car better and Zack's even more - sorry just my opinion. I, like you, would rather be driving a Ford GT anyway, but its not in the cards right now. Though I did find a place that will lease it for 1,895 a month.

BillyGman

11-09-2004, 10:59 PM

. I, like you, would rather be driving a Ford GT anyway, but its not in the cards right now. Though I did find a place that will lease it for 1,895 a month.

OOOOOOOHHHHHHH....no U went and did it!!!!!! That's not fair!!! U hit my weak spot!!! THE FORD GT!!!!!!! FOUL!!!........FOUL!!!!!

BillyGman

11-09-2004, 11:08 PM

Okay, now that I've regained my composure after that adrenaline rush brought on by the mention of the name of that car! (uhmm, trying to maintain control here)... let me say that yes I agree that the centrifugal will provide a greater percentage of it's power increase in the upper RPM range (ie 5,000 RPM's and beyond) kind of like how a rice burner Jap car does.

As for a comparisant of the Eaton S/Cer equipped to the Vortech S/Cer equipped Marauders you've been in, are you aware of exactly how many PSI of boost pressure each of the three cars were running at the time? And what about the stall speeds of each one as well as the rear end gear ratios? Let's just make sure you're comparing apples to apples here. If you're not sure as to the answers to those questions, then your example cannot be considered a clear comparisant. For instance, I don't believe that the Trilogy car ever had a higher than stock stall speed. That's just for starters. What about the chips in each car? Were any of them dual position chips? And if so, were any one of them running 100 octane race gas during these rides that you had in them? If any of them were, and the others were NOT, then that wouldn't be a valid comparisant either since almost all Marauders are intended by their owners to be used ostly for the street, and nobodt that I know of is going to be spending $5+ per gallon for race gas to use on the street on a daily basis. And everyone knows that the advantage of a dual position chip is to run a more agressive timing advance curve at the track while using 100 octane race gas which will ofcourse make the car in question run faster.

David Morton

11-09-2004, 11:16 PM

It's all apples, Marauders!

BillyGman

11-09-2004, 11:18 PM

It's all apples, Marauders!Not if one car is running 13 PSI of boost, and another is running 9.5 PSI. And not if one car is tuned for 100 octane race gas, while one isn't. How would that be a realistic comparisant of results obtained w/two different type superchargers? I don't think so. If one of the Vortech S/Cer equipped Marauders were running a lot more boost pressure than the Trilogy car was, then an accurate comparisant would be more like a ride in Dave's(aka "MI2QWIK4U") Trilogy S/Cer equipped Marauder since it also has well over 12 PSI of boost pressure, and therefore is also faster than the Trilogy #1 car is.

Just as my Marauder is faster than an otherwise stock Marauder that's equipped w/the Trilogy kit simply because of the rear end gears that I have as well as the higher stall speed, and to a lesser extent the Kooks headers too. my point is that if you're going to get a ride in different Marauders to make a comparisant of two different S/cers, then you better be certain that each Marauder in question has been similarly otherwise modified. otherwise your comparisant would be useless since it wouldn't be very telling nor conclusive.

bigslim

11-10-2004, 12:24 AM

I addressed this topic in the "other" thread. However, I have noticed that with the centrifucal units it seems that a new torque convertor and some other pieces are needed to really make it affective. It seems that the roots-type blowers really don't need anything to effective. I myself like the clean installation look of the Eaton unit over the all the plumbing needed for the centrifucal units. As I have said in the other thread this is the reason I will be going with the Trilogy. I want a clean look. I don't need to be the fastest MM here. I just want something fast and looks good and still drives like the car I originally bought. People, buy what you want. We will see them all run at MVIII.

sailsmen

11-10-2004, 03:42 AM

JohnE

11-10-2004, 05:06 AM

Of course you're leaving out turbo's. Those can be setup for either low-end torque or high-end torque (hp). My Volvo has 2 small tubos, which give instantaneous torque under all driving situations, but it isn't setup for high upper rpm boost. My roots supercharged Grand Marquis has more raw power under all situations that the Volvo, but it does have an extra 1.7 liters displacement and traction. Volvo gets 20mpg GM gets 15.6mpg in town.

When you choose modifications, they should fit into your total goals. What do you want out of the car? Do you want power that keeps climbing as the rpms rise? Or do you want a smaller engine to act like a larger displacement big block and have excellent acceleration without downshifting? How far are you willing to push the power up before it's enough? If you’re the type that wants more and more, don’t use a small blower. Of course the farther you push things, the less street able it’ll be. In order for more efficiency at high output, you have to give up efficiency on the light throttle side.

An Eaton roots supercharger makes a good daily driver. They work best in the mild to medium boost levels. Once boost is pushed up, they use a lot of crank power and make tremendous heat. Eatons have the best reputation for durability of all other superchargers on the market, with a life expectancy of 100,000mi before remanufacturing.

A twin-screw supercharger is not as efficient as roots under low boost, however the tables turn quickly as boost rises. These make much less heat and use less crank power when spun up.

A centrifugal supercharger progressively flows air. They typically make more noise, especially at idle. These use even less crank power and make less heat than a twin screw under similar situations. However, they have to be spun up to make strong boost. These really should be thought of similarly to a turbo, in sizing. The ones which have 'lag' give an amazing kick in the rear in higher rpms and the ones w/o lag don't have as much to give in the upper rpms.

And as I just hinted to, sizing of forced induction is important. You can't just blindly talk about the differences, without specifying flow demands. For instance, a both a roots and a centrifugal can be sized & geared to deliver peak flow at 4,000 engine rpms. They would both run out of steam at higher rpms, but the roots would give less usable power above 4k. At tip-in the roots would have a little bit more power.

Torque converter stall and rear end ratio play a part. If you want to keep your launches lower in rpm, you need more lower end power. If you want the best possible launch at the track you'll want a high stall and you wont' be using the lower rpm torque.

Traction is yet another issue. If you have more power than your tires can put to the ground, you'll make more smoke than go. On the street, traction choices are more limited than what you can get on the track with purpose built tires. If you setup your output where you have to go light on the throttle to get started, you're simply wasting power.

And don't forget about selecting and setting up your engine to for the type of power you want. Of course, most of you only consider sticking with the bone stock block and heads Ford gave you. This does seriously limit your choices.

And above all of these choices you can make it does come down to personal preferences. Different supercharges can accomplish the same goal.

JohnE

11-10-2004, 05:15 AM

By the way, I'm maxing my 90cu blower and my engine is capable of much more. I've made choices along the build of my car. Track numbers could certainly be improved upon, but that's not my focus. My car has 325 lb-ft to the wheels between 1,500 and 5,500rpm, even more in 1st gear. The car responds well to any request to move. Downsifting is not required, but if you do more power is there. It's a great daily driver, even with the boat in tow. For now it is what I want it to be. We'll see what my hobby desires take me to next.

John

Smokie

11-10-2004, 05:30 AM

My personal preference for my car is Roots because I like the way it neatly sits in the center, this business about which one is better is silly; they both make the car faster.

I don't care for the looks of the plumbing on the Vortec and I also don't like a backwards running alternator or broken belts, so in conclusion, if you are very serious about your car, than do your homework....if you just want to go faster ...any flavor will do.:D

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 05:41 AM

Excellent post JohnE!

You have certainly covered a lot of ground there and have hit on a number of good points. In fact, you hit a number of areas where, when one considers the entire package, one might consider another type of blower for the MM other than a positive displacement blower.

The same article talks about the importance of the full torque curve and how you just can't compare peak numbers, the roots and twin screw types displayed the best of that as well.

This is exactly my point. This is why our senior members who know better should not be saying "any blower choice is fine". And, when it comes down to it, the long flat torque curve is what positive displacemment blowers produce best, where centrifugals produce less on the front and more on the back end. That said, when you consider the 4.6DOHC motor is low on torque on the low end, and but breathes awesome on the top end, the postivie displacement blowers (roots or screw) "fit" and releive the "weaknesses" of the motor best. They help most where the engine needs it. Common sense here. Now, if you choose to have all the power in the top end, and remain with the lackluster under-torqued slushy feeling of the 4.6DOHC in the lower band (under 3500 rpm), hey more power to you. I'd think that would suck on the street where most driving is done in the lower rpm ranges. On the other hand, for a drag car, this is what makes the centrifugals desirable.

Your roots will increase top end some just like a Vortec will increase bottom end some. Actually this is false. The gains as a % of power for a roots blower in the upper range will be greater than the gains as a % of a centrifugal in the low end. The roots blower does indeed "fall off" at the top end...but not to zero, unlike the centrifugals that produce zero boost under 2000 rpm and are lucky to produce much boost at all under 3000.

I tried Trilogy number 1, I liked Mac's car better and Zack's even more - sorry just my opinion.

Not even close to appples and apples. Trilogy 1 only has the base kit producing mild boost with no other mods. Hardly an accurate comparison. And, of course, there is no accounting for taste;)

The problem for me is the Roots develops 40% more heat than the centrifugal, being in the Deep South heck it was 87* & 85% last week, the centrifugal is the way to go since it only raise Air Intake Temp by 10*.. :)

Not sure where you are getting your stats, but I am sorry to say that a centrifugal blower making any kind of desirable boost levels will raise your intake charge far more than 10 degrees.

Quite frankly, roots or centrifugal, doesn't matter, either blower should be intercooled for best results.

There is a reason some Cobra owners are going to Centrifugal. The Roots model is undersized for the DOHC application.

Unfortunately you did not go into the "reason" and you should have. Those guys changing the blower are looking for more top end. These are pure drag race guys. head over to SVT or The Corral and find out what the motivation is behind the change. And, even then, their are many Cobra guys who disagree with that approach.

As far as the blower being "undersized", that depends on the motor work done. On a stock 4.6 DOHC the M112 has plenty of cfm to feed the motor. Its only the guys who want to bansi the motor out at the top end, and not see a "fall off" of boost that want to make the switch.

LOL...it cracks me up whenever someone sites that the "Cobra guys are switching to a centrifugal blower". Why? Few have done it. Fewer have done it with success. And more importanly, all successes have been track cars. Given the pretty "mild" group of folks here on MMNet it hardly makes it worth the point.

Here's a bigger reason to think about...why did ford choose a roots blower in the first place? Becuase they are stupid? I think not.

BTW, I've received a few PMs, so let me clear something up. The Marauder is NOT my first and only supercharged car. I've had three blown cars over 13 years now. Two were centrifugal blowers, and now the Marauder is roots. Every time the research was done and the best blower for the application was chosen. I can tell all of you from personal experience in buying, installing, tuning, and driving, on the street, and at the track, both road race, and strip, that there are BIG differences between them, and that there is indeed a best blower for the application.

And I am going to paraphrase something some here already said so well, so forgive the quote if its off a bit:

I don't say that the roots blower is best because I have one on my Marauder, I have a roots blower on my Marauder because it is the best fit! If you don't want the personality of the car to change from big gears and a high stall to artificially increase the rpms, then the roots is the hands down choice. Now, if you want to take things up to another level and make a drag car our of it, a centrifugal could indeed make a good choice.

sailsmen

11-10-2004, 05:57 AM

The 10* increase in Air Intake Temp has been verified. The 40% is from Corky Bell's book.

You should come down south and run in these temps/humidity. I ran over the summer 95* and 93%.

Depends on your definition of Banzi.

I race at the track. The Centrifugal enhances the DOHC asset rather than trying to make it something it is not.

A members car here with the Roots stated he was running out of boost efficieny with the Roots at the higher PSI.

The centrifugals are making more HP at lower boost with a lower AIT.

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 06:00 AM

The 10* increase in Air Intake Temp has been verified.

lol...by whom?

sailsmen

11-10-2004, 06:03 AM

Ask those that have the centrifugal.

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 06:08 AM

Ask those that have the centrifugal.

Ummmmm...I have 2 had centifugally blown cars!! And 10 degrees is not correct on any boost over a few psi.

They are wrong. When I get off work tonight I will site plenty of "good" information about the increase in charge temps. Something to think about before I return to the thread is if there is only a 10 degree bump in charge temp then why to most of the centifugal blower companys recommend and offer after coolers at significant boost levels?

BTW, Corky's bood is a bit out dated I am afraid. The 40% is for roots blowers WITHOUT an internal by pass unlike the M122 which does have that by pass. That inernal by pass is what made the roots )and some screw blowers) viable options on the street more recently.

sailsmen

11-10-2004, 06:14 AM

I have owned a factory Roots and a factory Turbo. I liked both. I am well aware of the pros/cons.

Centrifugals are sold with out and with an intercooler. The 10* bump is with an intercooler.

Tallboy

11-10-2004, 06:36 AM

sailsmen

11-10-2004, 06:40 AM

Being in the Deep South it is usually very hot.

SergntMac

11-10-2004, 07:35 AM

So far we have been able to keep the discussion civil and I am very pleased to see that. Newbies looking for all the facts before they decide, need to hear all of the facts. Opinion can season to taste, and so far, it's not overly salted. Nice work, y'all.

Steven's test drive was about as fair as one could get. He sampled all he could get his hands on, and drew his own conclusions based on his wants and how he will use his MM. Short of building two identical MM just for such a test, the playing field cannot get any more level. Though some may not agree with his conclusions, he was fair and open-minded in looking at the facts before he decided and his examination IS as credible as it can get, within the limits of what's available to test.

BTW, how many of you roots owners here actually drove a centrifugal supercharged MM before deciding? To characterize a centrifugal as "lackluster" and "slushy" in the lower end proves one thing beyond all doubt. Y'all never drove a centrifugal charged MM, yet you wonder about credibility of another's member's attempt to research the facts. Well, at least he looked them over, eh?

What was the outcome of the heads up race at MV-II between Zack and Dave? I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure I can see it played out in my mind's eye. Dave took the lead out of the gates, and Zack took the race, am I right? Moreover, while it's true that Lidio's roots is the fastest MM here right now, is it not true Zack's cerntrfugal charged MM ran 11.8x and 11.6x, and without juice? These are credible facts too, yes?

IMHO, both Zack and Dave's MMs are as identical as you could hope to see lined up against each other for an honest heads-up race. I believe this race is factual, fair, and as important as any book or magazine article in researching the topic.

Whether you race full time, or, once in your life, racing is about winning, and you get to put your own theories to test. Every choice you make in building your car is a choice that will eventually bring you to win, or, lose. It's a fact...When you win, you're right. I must say that if it had been an 1/8 mile race, I am sure things would have come out differently, however, the 1/4 mile contest is the most common race environment among us, and this has something to do with choices and decisions too.

The single drawback I see with any roots blower on an MM, is that it is limited by it's physical size. Right now, the Eaton blower in the Trilogy kit is Eaton's largest available. You can pulley this up to maximum power, and reach a limit. However, the blower nests in the engine valley, and there is a limit to what you can stuff in there. As the scale of performance expands, you will eventually hit a wall of maximum power because nothing larger will fit. There is a limit, and if you wanted to build your own version of Hell Boy, you're not going to accomplish that with a roots charger and abide the rules of the racing authority involved. Therefore, the roots is not as flexible in future growth as the centrifugal.

Right now, I have a Vortech V-2 S trim blower with 9.5 PSI of boost. My best time has been a 12,.79 and I am happy with that. Likewise, my Vortech has it's limits in size and it's maximum wall too, but should I want to go faster someday, all I need to do is send the blower in to Vortech and upgrade to a T trim. One week turn around, and I'm into a whole new power bandwidth, and starting all over again within that power scale. I can even bolt on a ProCharger if I want, and it won't be a nightmare because most of the hardware is interchangable, and none of it is invasive to the OEM engine design. Therefore, the centrifugal design is more flexible in future growth, and eaiser to maintain and repair. You get many more choices in design, and many more options allowing you to dial in the power you desire. This is a fact too, and it should be heard.

This is a question...Can the roots based MM run without a serpetine belt? I ask because we know Hell Boy lost a belt at the track this past weekend, and it's my impression that they drove the car back to the pits. Would this have been possible with a roots blower in place? I don't really know myself.

A closing comment...I'm posting here because I was to see all the facts discussed, all the good and bad of all our choices. Though I own a centrifugal based MM, I bought a whole car already built and I didn't get to make any choices. If not for that, I'd be BigSlim's twin brother in all of this. (ummm...I think he's taller than me?)

stevengerard

11-10-2004, 09:21 AM

Billy, all three cars were on 93 octane and to your point Trilogy 1 was completely stock I believe so it demonstrates what a huge difference the roots can make off the line on a stock car.

Now as for little power under 2500 for the Vortec, folks have to know that if all you are going to do is add a S/C then you need to review one set of factors/needs/desires but if you are like me and know you will be doing more, then that takes on a different set of circumstances. For instance I am adding a 3500 RPM TC, you may not need that with the roots but I'm willing to do that along with 4.10s. So I will be in the power band of the Vortec much quicker than if I just strapped on the Vortec. One has to take into consideration the type of car one is willing to live with and the amount of money willing to be spent. Mac, Zack, Navchap and others have gone to one degree, others like Marty have taken it to another level. Doesn't mean any of us are right or wrong. I just feel since I am willing and able to change the torque converter, gears, rebuild the trans, add an electric water pump etc. I feel the Vortec has more potential at a safer boost level than the roots.

I'm guessing that if you put a roots on a totally stock MM with just a chip change and do the same with a Vortec, 9 out of 10 folks would prefer the roots, I don't know because I have never done that back to back comparision. But like most of us nuts on this forum even though we say we will be satisfied, we tend to always do "just one more thing". So with my ability and desire to do a lot of changes at once I beleive I will be happier with my choice of S/C than with the roots and those other changes. And for me you can't bring up drivability because ever MM I have driven has surprised me on how well mannered it is - period - I'd like to drive Marty's and Lidio's too.

bigslim

11-10-2004, 09:25 AM

Wow, I have a twin brother. COOL!!!

Tallboy

11-10-2004, 11:31 AM

the trilogy blower has a seperate belt for the blower. if the belt gets thrown, the car will run fine.

maraudernkc

11-10-2004, 12:31 PM

Since we are quoting SC stuff if you look at November MMFF issue you will see it states that

"A well designed compressor stage(centrifical blower) exhibts much higher efficency than the Roots design, resulting in much greater net gains due to lower charge air tempature and parasitic loss.

We can all go thru books and magazines and find little blurbs that favor Roots or Centrifical blowers but the bottom line is get what YOU want not what someone else wants you to get.

The 4.6 32V motor is not the perfect motor for the MM but it is a high revving motor and makes it's power more on the mid and top. That's why we all put lower gears in our cars to help the performance down low.

My suggestion for any newbie is to figure out how much you have to spend and then drive a MM that has that blower on it.

maraudernkc

11-10-2004, 12:45 PM

Don't tell me your saying by Installing a Centrifical Blower that your MM is now a drag car and will not be a great streetable car?

Excellent post JohnE!

You have certainly covered a lot of ground there and have hit on a number of good points. In fact, you hit a number of areas where, when one considers the entire package, one might consider another type of blower for the MM other than a positive displacement blower.

This is exactly my point. This is why our senior members who know better should not be saying "any blower choice is fine". And, when it comes down to it, the long flat torque curve is what positive displacemment blowers produce best, where centrifugals produce less on the front and more on the back end. That said, when you consider the 4.6DOHC motor is low on torque on the low end, and but breathes awesome on the top end, the postivie displacement blowers (roots or screw) "fit" and releive the "weaknesses" of the motor best. They help most where the engine needs it. Common sense here. Now, if you choose to have all the power in the top end, and remain with the lackluster under-torqued slushy feeling of the 4.6DOHC in the lower band (under 3500 rpm), hey more power to you. I'd think that would suck on the street where most driving is done in the lower rpm ranges. On the other hand, for a drag car, this is what makes the centrifugals desirable.

Actually this is false. The gains as a % of power for a roots blower in the upper range will be greater than the gains as a % of a centrifugal in the low end. The roots blower does indeed "fall off" at the top end...but not to zero, unlike the centrifugals that produce zero boost under 2000 rpm and are lucky to produce much boost at all under 3000.

Not even close to appples and apples. Trilogy 1 only has the base kit producing mild boost with no other mods. Hardly an accurate comparison. And, of course, there is no accounting for taste;)

Not sure where you are getting your stats, but I am sorry to say that a centrifugal blower making any kind of desirable boost levels will raise your intake charge far more than 10 degrees.

Quite frankly, roots or centrifugal, doesn't matter, either blower should be intercooled for best results.

Unfortunately you did not go into the "reason" and you should have. Those guys changing the blower are looking for more top end. These are pure drag race guys. head over to SVT or The Corral and find out what the motivation is behind the change. And, even then, their are many Cobra guys who disagree with that approach.

As far as the blower being "undersized", that depends on the motor work done. On a stock 4.6 DOHC the M112 has plenty of cfm to feed the motor. Its only the guys who want to bansi the motor out at the top end, and not see a "fall off" of boost that want to make the switch.

LOL...it cracks me up whenever someone sites that the "Cobra guys are switching to a centrifugal blower". Why? Few have done it. Fewer have done it with success. And more importanly, all successes have been track cars. Given the pretty "mild" group of folks here on MMNet it hardly makes it worth the point.

Here's a bigger reason to think about...why did ford choose a roots blower in the first place? Becuase they are stupid? I think not.

BTW, I've received a few PMs, so let me clear something up. The Marauder is NOT my first and only supercharged car. I've had three blown cars over 13 years now. Two were centrifugal blowers, and now the Marauder is roots. Every time the research was done and the best blower for the application was chosen. I can tell all of you from personal experience in buying, installing, tuning, and driving, on the street, and at the track, both road race, and strip, that there are BIG differences between them, and that there is indeed a best blower for the application.

And I am going to paraphrase something some here already said so well, so forgive the quote if its off a bit:

I don't say that the roots blower is best because I have one on my Marauder, I have a roots blower on my Marauder because it is the best fit! If you don't want the personality of the car to change from big gears and a high stall to artificially increase the rpms, then the roots is the hands down choice. Now, if you want to take things up to another level and make a drag car our of it, a centrifugal could indeed make a good choice.

maraudernkc

11-10-2004, 12:54 PM

These are all good points that you have made.

If your running a centrifical blower on your MM and it is still under warranty you could easily take that sytem off and put it back to stock and the motor has never had a gasket broken. You can't say the same thing for the Roots style blower.

Just pointing out pros and cons. As there are many.

So far we have been able to keep the discussion civil and I am very pleased to see that. Newbies looking for all the facts before they decide, need to hear all of the facts. Opinion can season to taste, and so far, it's not overly salted. Nice work, y'all.

Steven's test drive was about as fair as one could get. He sampled all he could get his hands on, and drew his own conclusions based on his wants and how he will use his MM. Short of building two identical MM just for such a test, the playing field cannot get any more level. Though some may not agree with his conclusions, he was fair and open-minded in looking at the facts before he decided and his examination IS as credible as it can get, within the limits of what's available to test.

BTW, how many of you roots owners here actually drove a centrifugal supercharged MM before deciding? To characterize a centrifugal as "lackluster" and "slushy" in the lower end proves one thing beyond all doubt. Y'all never drove a centrifugal charged MM, yet you wonder about credibility of another's member's attempt to research the facts. Well, at least he looked them over, eh?

What was the outcome of the heads up race at MV-II between Zack and Dave? I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure I can see it played out in my mind's eye. Dave took the lead out of the gates, and Zack took the race, am I right? Moreover, while it's true that Lidio's roots is the fastest MM here right now, is it not true Zack's cerntrfugal charged MM ran 11.8x and 11.6x, and without juice? These are credible facts too, yes?

IMHO, both Zack and Dave's MMs are as identical as you could hope to see lined up against each other for an honest heads-up race. I believe this race is factual, fair, and as important as any book or magazine article in researching the topic.

Whether you race full time, or, once in your life, racing is about winning, and you get to put your own theories to test. Every choice you make in building your car is a choice that will eventually bring you to win, or, lose. It's a fact...When you win, you're right. I must say that if it had been an 1/8 mile race, I am sure things would have come out differently, however, the 1/4 mile contest is the most common race environment among us, and this has something to do with choices and decisions too.

The single drawback I see with any roots blower on an MM, is that it is limited by it's physical size. Right now, the Eaton blower in the Trilogy kit is Eaton's largest available. You can pulley this up to maximum power, and reach a limit. However, the blower nests in the engine valley, and there is a limit to what you can stuff in there. As the scale of performance expands, you will eventually hit a wall of maximum power because nothing larger will fit. There is a limit, and if you wanted to build your own version of Hell Boy, you're not going to accomplish that with a roots charger and abide the rules of the racing authority involved. Therefore, the roots is not as flexible in future growth as the centrifugal.

Right now, I have a Vortech V-2 S trim blower with 9.5 PSI of boost. My best time has been a 12,.79 and I am happy with that. Likewise, my Vortech has it's limits in size and it's maximum wall too, but should I want to go faster someday, all I need to do is send the blower in to Vortech and upgrade to a T trim. One week turn around, and I'm into a whole new power bandwidth, and starting all over again within that power scale. I can even bolt on a ProCharger if I want, and it won't be a nightmare because most of the hardware is interchangable, and none of it is invasive to the OEM engine design. Therefore, the centrifugal design is more flexible in future growth, and eaiser to maintain and repair. You get many more choices in design, and many more options allowing you to dial in the power you desire. This is a fact too, and it should be heard.

This is a question...Can the roots based MM run without a serpetine belt? I ask because we know Hell Boy lost a belt at the track this past weekend, and it's my impression that they drove the car back to the pits. Would this have been possible with a roots blower in place? I don't really know myself.

A closing comment...I'm posting here because I was to see all the facts discussed, all the good and bad of all our choices. Though I own a centrifugal based MM, I bought a whole car already built and I didn't get to make any choices. If not for that, I'd be BigSlim's twin brother in all of this. (ummm...I think he's taller than me?)

Tallboy

11-10-2004, 01:10 PM

maraudernkc

11-10-2004, 01:33 PM

Tallboy, I stand corrected you are 100% correct with a Vortech you do tap the oil pan but not with the Pro Charger. Thanks for pointing that out.:beer:

i thought with a vortech [which is centrifugal] you had to tap the oil pan. my guess is most dealership techs will spot that.

SergntMac

11-10-2004, 03:55 PM

the trilogy blower has a seperate belt for the blower. if the belt gets thrown, the car will run fine.
Thanks, Chuck. I wasn't sure.

And, when it comes down to it, the long flat torque curve is what positive displacemment blowers produce best, where centrifugals produce less on the front and more on the back end. That said, when you consider the 4.6DOHC motor is low on torque on the low end, and but breathes awesome on the top end, the postivie displacement blowers (roots or screw) "fit" and releive the "weaknesses" of the motor best. They help most where the engine needs it. Common sense here. Now, if you choose to have all the power in the top end, and remain with the lackluster under-torqued slushy feeling of the 4.6DOHC in the lower band (under 3500 rpm), hey more power to you. I'd think that would suck on the street where most driving is done in the lower rpm ranges. On the other hand, for a drag car, this is what makes the centrifugals desirable.
Okay, Mike, I love a challenge. I snatched up all the timeslips I could find on short notice. I have a bunch that came with the car from Kenny Brown while it was being built and tested, but I wasn't the driver, so, I discounted them. Besides, I haven't been able to replicate Brendan Bernstein's back to back 11.78 and 11.82 anyway.

I collected 22 of MY slips, and ran the 1/8th mile data through the 0-60 MPH calculator at this site.

http://www.binaryinc.org/auto_calc/

Entering 1/8 mile ET and speed will calculate your 0-60 times. Now, I agree that this particular calculator may be off just a bit, but if we all use the same calculator, it's fair. It's just math anyway, but after some pencil pushing and averaging, my centrifugal based MM has an average 0-60 time of 4.26 seconds. Lackluster and slushy...Indeed. Care to run your numbers through this, Mike?

Anyone? It's roots/centrifugal indifferent, trust me. Might be nice to see just how much power we're talking about getting lost to slushy low end response.

They are wrong. When I get off work tonight I will site plenty of "good" information about the increase in charge temps. Something to think about before I return to the thread is if there is only a 10 degree bump in charge temp then why to most of the centifugal blower companys recommend and offer after coolers at significant boost levels?
Are you talking about IATs? If so, I monitor mine with a Davis CarChip EX, and my IAT is routinely 7-10 degrees BELOW ambient outside air temps, and it's been so since I took over the car. Is this what you mean? If not, nevermind.

maraudernkc

11-10-2004, 04:06 PM

SergntMac, That is a great ideal. You always come up with the good stuff. I think will find times to be close on both kits.

Thanks, Chuck. I wasn't sure.

Okay, Mike, I love a challenge. I snatched up all the timeslips I could find on short notice. I have a bunch that came with the car from Kenny Brown while it was being built and tested, but I wasn't the driver, so, I discounted them. Besides, I haven't been able to replicate Brendan Bernstein's back to back 11.78 and 11.82 anyway.

I collected 22 of MY slips, and ran the 1/8th mile data through the 0-60 MPH calculator at this site.

http://www.binaryinc.org/auto_calc/

Entering 1/8 mile ET and speed will calculate your 0-60 times. Now, I agree that this particular calculator may be off just a bit, but if we all use the same calculator, it's fair. It's just math anyway, but after some pencil pushing and averaging, my centrifugal based MM has an average 0-60 time of 4.26 seconds. Lackluster and slushy...Indeed. Care to run your numbers through this, Mike?

Anyone? It's roots/centrifugal indifferent, trust me. Might be nice to see just how much power we're talking about getting lost to slushy low end response.

Are you talking about IATs? If so, I monitor mine with a Davis CarChip EX, and my IAT is routinely 7-10 degrees BELOW ambient outside air temps, and it's been so since I took over the car. Is this what you mean? If not, nevermind.

sailsmen

11-10-2004, 04:09 PM

WOW, A new Edition of Myth Busters. :D

stevengerard

11-10-2004, 04:17 PM

Besides, I haven't been able to replicate Brendan Bernstein's back to back 11.78 and 11.82 anyway.
That's cool, I have his autograph but he never drove my car. I hate to say it Mac - but I will. After seeing him he's probably 150lbs lighter than you and I so we will never match his times anyway.

Smokie

11-10-2004, 04:41 PM

I am pleased that there are choices, and that the cost issue is being addressed....competition is good for us the owners. I understand that once you have spent your several thousand dollars on the flavor of your choice you feel compelled to defend your choice.

It is proper to discuss the pro's and con's of any mod. but this roots vs. centrifugal war....reminds me of a political thread. For the record I prefer the roots kit, because to me it is a thing of beauty...however my eyes which are still connected to my brain tell me that the fastest 60' time of any MM. is not a roots blower, so the lack of low end torque is not holding water where it counts. I was at Indy and if you were not, PM me and I will tell you what I saw...it may surprise you. :D

Zack

11-10-2004, 04:42 PM

Billy G does it again :bows:

BillyGman

11-10-2004, 05:30 PM

Billy G does it again :bows:
Thankyou Zack. I know that you're always very concerned about pointing out all the pros and cons of all the modifications you've performed to your car for the sole benefit of others who might be thinking to do the same. And I'm very confident that you would put forth the time and effort into doing that for people for things other than just control arms or the grills that you've made.

David Morton

11-10-2004, 05:35 PM

It's all apples, Marauders!
Not if one car is running 13 PSI of boost, and another is running 9.5 PSI. And not if one car is tuned for 100 octane race gas, while one isn't. How would that be a realistic comparisant of results obtained w/two different type superchargers? I don't think so. If one of the Vortech S/Cer equipped Marauders were running a lot more boost pressure than the Trilogy car was, then an accurate comparisant would be more like a ride in Dave's(aka "MI2QWIK4U") Trilogy S/Cer equipped Marauder since it also has well over 12 PSI of boost pressure, and therefore is also faster than the Trilogy #1 car is.Billy, you got a massive car and that's fine. I'm happy for you. But you missed the point. Ever ask yourself why the Trilogy equipped cars are running 9.5 and the Vortech's are getting away with 13? It's because of the extra heat the roots type blower is making. I'm not talking about 93 vs. 100 octane cars. Besides, I hear those Trilogy cars are having to run an awfully rich fuel curve even at 9.5! Plus I'm not sure if I wouldn't be dangerous driving something that weighs 4500 lbs. and launches like a Mustang!

To be sure, the Vortech makes this 13 PSI at a higher RPM, but for me this car launches fine enough as it is N/A. I want that extra torque at a higher RPM so I can take her out to Bonneville and try for that magical 200 MPH! (old Bill Cosby fan) And if I can catch up to a Trilogy in the 1/4 mile too, well that's just icing on the cake! :D

SergntMac

11-10-2004, 05:39 PM

i thought with a vortech [which is centrifugal] you had to tap the oil pan. my guess is most dealership techs will spot that.
Yeah, the Vortech kit taps the oil pan, but IMHO, that's just being conveinent. It doesn't have to be that way, you could extend the lines over to the oil filter and use any one of the many adapters on the market, if you needed to stay real "clean" on it all.

OTOH, if you're supercharging, and using either style, there are so many other changes with either style, you'll never be clean OEM restored anyway. Safe to say that supercharging is not for the warranty conncerned owner, K? Your warranty, as far as the engine is concerned, is very much toast.

BillyGman

11-10-2004, 05:42 PM

No David, you've missed the point. Because there are Trilogy cars that are running 12.5 and even 13 PSI of boost. Namely Lidio's Marauder and Dave's Marauder are (uhmm, like I've already previously pointed out). So your point is null and void. And as far as a 4200 LB car or a 4500 car launching hard, the one thing you're overlooking is that along w/that extra weight, the Marauder also has a considerably longer wheelbase than a Mustang does, so it won't fishtail w/the same intensity as a Mustang will unless you are making well over 600 HP at the wheels.

BruteForce

11-10-2004, 05:59 PM

Thankyou Zack. I know that you're always very concerned about pointing out all the pros and cons of all the modifications you've performed to your car for the sole benefit of others who might be thinking to do the same. And I'm very confident that you would put forth the time and effort into doing that for people for things other than just control arms or the grills that you've made.

Try not to take everything so personally. Actually Zack is a very helpful and generous person. He has gone out of his way for me in the past even before I ever bought anything from him. Now he might not post 30 times a day like some but when he does post info its usually pretty good.

Tallboy

11-10-2004, 05:59 PM

Billy, you got a massive car and that's fine. I'm happy for you. But you missed the point. Ever ask yourself why the Trilogy equipped cars are running 9.5 and the Vortech's are getting away with 13? It's because of the extra heat the roots type blower is making. I'm not talking about 93 vs. 100 octane cars. Besides, I hear those Trilogy cars are having to run an awfully rich fuel curve even at 9.5! Plus I'm not sure if I wouldn't be dangerous driving something that weighs 4500 lbs. and launches like a Mustang!

To be sure, the Vortech makes this 13 PSI at a higher RPM, but for me this car launches fine enough as it is N/A. I want that extra torque at a higher RPM so I can take her out to Bonneville and try for that magical 200 MPH! (old Bill Cosby fan) And if I can catch up to a Trilogy in the 1/4 mile too, well that's just icing on the cake! :D
lidio has been running 14 psi of boost for over 20,000 miles with no problems. he even hits it with an occasional shot of nitrous. and, he still has the stock exhaust and transmission. i doubt anyone here will drive their car harder than lidio. who is your source for the "awfully rich fuel curve" on the trilogy cars?

BillyGman

11-10-2004, 06:04 PM

BTW, all this debate over what a magazine article stated about roots and twin-screw S/Cers being better for HEAVY vehicles and centrifugal S/Cer being better for Light weight vehicles. Like I've said in my first post, I didn't write the article though, so IF you don't agree, w/the article's conclusion, then perhaps you should write to the magazine. But as for me, I think they know what they're talking about concerning S/Cer applications for HEAVY and lightweight vehicles driven on the street. And make no mistake about it, that WAS afterall the article's conclusion, and NOT simply a point that was taken out of context.And since they aren't looking to sell you either one S/Cer or the other, then it was obviously an UNBIASED viewpoint. :)

David Morton

11-10-2004, 06:10 PM

Sorry Billy. So you're saying the Trilogy doesn't make more heat and that tuning one is just the same as tuning a Vortech since the Vortech makes just as much heat as the Trilogy.

Or, perhaps you're saying that heat doesn't matter? That an IAT of, say, 120 degrees doesn't call for any more fuel or any less timing than an IAT of 100 degrees?

I still say we're talking about apples. Take two stock Marauders and you can get away with more boost, albeit at a higher RPM, with a centrifugal type supercharger. Or, use the same boost and get better fuel efficiency. Heat does matter. It's against the law to try to tune a Trilogy like it was a Vortech without paying a price, tons of extra fuel or burned pistons. (BTW, the "law" is called "Boyles Law" and it concerns gasses and compressing them and the heat that it generates.)

Whatever "somebody else" did to make a Trilogy work at 13 PSI, would make a Vortech work at 18.

SergntMac

11-10-2004, 06:19 PM

No David, you've missed the point. Because there are Trilogy cars that are running 12.5 and even 13 PSI of boost. Namely Lidio's Marauder and Dave's Marauder are (uhmm, like I've already previously pointed out). So your point is null and void.
C'mon Billy, you know David is just confused, he's got the numbers upside down, it happens to us all from time to time. This doesn't make his comments "null and void," does it?

As I read it, we host a number of Trilogy/roots based MMs here running 12-13 PSI of boost, but not (1) one (to my knowledge) Vortech/centrifugal based car over 10 PSI boost.

I believe Zack is right at 10 PSI, he can correct me on that. But, my MM is pumping 9.5 PSI and I've spoken with Haggis and John F. Russo, (both KB owners) just this past week, and both tell me they are running 6 and 8 PSI respectively. Again, just an oversight, which has happened to me too. Left got right, up got down, but not so bad as to be null and void? You're a verb guy, eh? Love the dramatic words?

BTW...Did you get time to crunch your 0-60 times yet?

David Morton

11-10-2004, 06:29 PM

lidio has been running 14 psi of boost for over 20,000 miles with no problems. he even hits it with an occasional shot of nitrous. and, he still has the stock exhaust and transmission. i doubt anyone here will drive their car harder than lidio. who is your source for the "awfully rich fuel curve" on the trilogy cars?Well, I must admit I heard it from Dennis.

But that fits in with my research and training in physics, especially thermodynamics, and that dovetails in nicely with my training in tune-up when I worked as a technician for General Motors.

Even the various magazine articles and experts all agree the roots-type superchargers make more heat. And the location of the blower and intercooler make the engine heat transfer issues even more difficult from the get-go. Given the same efficiency in intercooler heat blow off, the location of the Trilogy set-up puts it at a disadvantage. Now, fit that in with what Boyle's Law says about how a gas heats up when it is compressed, and just 20 degrees lower IAT can make a difference of hundreds of degrees in the combustion chamber as the piston comes to TDC. The only way to cool off the hotter charge then is to add a lot more fuel. That's unless you back off on the boost.

Boyle's Law is a b*tch, there's just no way of getting around it, so when Dennis said the Trilogy runs more fuel for a given amount of boost, I believe him. All it took for me was the consensus about the roots-type making more heat. If you believe that, and I do, then all you need is a little knowledge about tune-up and the rest is logical conclusion.

SergntMac

11-10-2004, 06:49 PM

Boyle's Law is a b*tch, there's just no way of getting around it, so when Dennis said the Trilogy runs more fuel for a given amount of boost, I believe him. All it took for me was the consensus about the roots-type making more heat. If you believe that, and I do, then all you need is a little knowledge about tune-up and the rest is logical conclusion.
"Logical conclusion..." Ummm...Dave...That's what this thread is all about, and the lack of it as well. Hang loose with this a while, K? Sometimes it takes a few hours for others to respond?

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 07:08 PM

Now as for little power under 2500 for the Vortec, folks have to know that if all you are going to do is add a S/C then you need to review one set of factors/needs/desires but if you are like me and know you will be doing more, then that takes on a different set of circumstances. For instance I am adding a 3500 RPM TC, you may not need that with the roots but I'm willing to do that along with 4.10s. So I will be in the power band of the Vortec much quicker than if I just strapped on the Vortec. One has to take into consideration the type of car one is willing to live with and the amount of money willing to be spent.

I'm guessing that if you put a roots on a totally stock MM with just a chip change and do the same with a Vortec, 9 out of 10 folks would prefer the roots

BRAVO! This is all I've been trying to say!

For those guys who do not want to go much more beyond the blower, a roots is a perfect fit. You have to undertsand that there is some sacrifice to big gears and a high stall if you want to get a centrifugal to really get pumping. BUT, if that is indeed your cup of tea, then a centrifugal can indeed make a wonderful blower choice.

BTW, how many of you roots owners here actually drove a centrifugal supercharged MM before deciding? To characterize a centrifugal as "lackluster" and "slushy" in the lower end proves one thing beyond all doubt. Y'all never drove a centrifugal charged MM, yet you wonder about credibility of another's member's attempt to research the facts.

Ummmm, I HAVE indeed driven in a centrifugal blown MM. However, it did not have big gears and a high rpm stall, and it WAS slushy and lackluster on the low end compared to any Trilogy car. That's a fact. Now, I am sure with the right gearing and TC that can be remedied....if you are willing to live with the loss of OEM driving characteristics like low rpm highway cruising and super smooth rolls of the light. But, hey, if that's okay, go for it.

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 07:15 PM

Don't tell me your saying by Installing a Centrifical Blower that your MM is now a drag car and will not be a great streetable car?

No, nothing is that cut and dried.

However, generally speaking, a roots blower which places more power gains into the lower rpm range tend to be more "street" oriented as they deliver power in the range most used on the street.

Centrifugals, tend to deliver greater power gains in the upper band which is where most track oriented cars want to be...especially through the use of big gears and high rpm stall speeds.

This is hot rod 101 folks nothing more. It doesn't mean you cannot do this, or cannot do that, its just basic conventional wisdom which makes a starting point in the process of choosing the blower.

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 07:26 PM

I collected 22 of MY slips, and ran the 1/8th mile data through the 0-60 MPH calculator at this site.

http://www.binaryinc.org/auto_calc/

Entering 1/8 mile ET and speed will calculate your 0-60 times. Now, I agree that this particular calculator may be off just a bit, but if we all use the same calculator, it's fair. It's just math anyway, but after some pencil pushing and averaging, my centrifugal based MM has an average 0-60 time of 4.26 seconds. Lackluster and slushy...Indeed. Care to run your numbers through this, Mike?

I will certainly try to do this if I have the time, but timeslips have NOTHING to do with what I am talking about. There are just too many variables there such as other mods to the car like gearing and TC, as well as driver skill and track conditions. Using big gears and high rpm stall speeds as a "crutch" to get the centrifugal blowers into there boost producing rpms is great if that is what you want to do.

Instead, why not look at Dyno sheets? If you take the time to look, you will consistently find that the torque curves provided by roots blowers are broader and flatter in the lower end of the power band over centrifugal blowers. Again, this is hot rod 101.

You can certainly take the challenge of the dyno sheets if you want, but you ain't gonna be happy.

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 07:27 PM

WOW, A new Edition of Myth Busters. :D

Not even close. Power output is determined by dyno sheets, not 60 ft times :rolleyes:

MI2QWK4U

11-10-2004, 07:32 PM

The problem for me is the Roots develops 40% more heat than the centrifugal, being in the Deep South heck it was 87* & 85% last week, the centrifugal is the way to go since it only raise Air Intake Temp by 10*.. :)

You are right the Corky Bell book is excellent, so is the Sean Hyland book. :D

There is a reason some Cobra owners are going to Centrifugal. The Roots model is undersized for the DOHC application.

Ok, I have to jump in on this one. You will have no issues with the heat down south. As you know I have an eaton on my Marauder. I also have a custom intercooler coolant temperature monitor, using Dakota digital guages. I am able to tell the output temperature of the coolant leaving the intercooler, which is always warmer when you are into the boost, as well as the input temperature of the coolant exiting the intercooler radiator before it enters the intercooler on the supercharger. No other Trilogy equipped Eaton Marauder can has done this mod, which basically tells me how effiecently the intercooling system is operating under load. Do you know that the Trilogy system typically runs 10 degrees warmer than the ambient outside temperature?! When we were in Norwalk, it was 90 degrees out, my intercooler water temp was only 97 degrees. At Milan last weekend the outside temp was 60 Degrees, the intercooler temp was 65 degrees. The other morning it was 40 degrees on the way to work, i couldnt get the temp above 42 degrees by getting on it on the drive in.
So lets not go there about the Roots running "soooooo" much hotter than the vortech. I am sick and tired of hearing "things" that people know, without checking with people that either know, or are more informed.

So....one time from the cheap seats....The Eatons DONT run much more than 10 degrees warmer than ambient temperature.

Billy, Mike, its pretty much a lost cause explaing things anymore. Uninformed people will believe anything with a slick sales job.

Tallboy

11-10-2004, 07:34 PM

I will certainly try to do this if I have the time, but timeslips have NOTHING to do with what I am talking about. There are just too many variables there such as other mods to the car like gearing and TC, as well as driver skill and track conditions. Using big gears and high rpm stall speeds as a "crutch" to get the centrifugal blowers into there boost producing rpms is great if that is what you want to do.

Instead, why not look at Dyno sheets? If you take the time to look, you will consistently find that the torque curves provided by roots blowers are broader and flatter in the lower end of the power band over centrifugal blowers. Again, this is hot rod 101.

You can certainly take the challenge of the dyno sheets if you want, but you ain't gonna be happy.[/QUOTE]
bingo!! i didn't "build" my car to get a timeslip, beat anyone, or prove anything. i've never raced at a track in my life, and i'm sure a better driver in a slower car would have little trouble beating me. a timeslip is meaningless to me-i just don't care. if my car ever goes down the 1320 it will be with a friend of mine at the wheel who has a ton of expirience. i'd let him keep the slip if he wanted. i wanted more low-end grunt and the ability to incinerate the rear tires at will. now i have both.:)

bigslim

11-10-2004, 07:38 PM

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 07:40 PM

Okay, Mike, I love a challenge.

I collected 22 of MY slips, and ran the 1/8th mile data through the 0-60 MPH calculator at this site.

http://www.binaryinc.org/auto_calc/

Entering 1/8 mile ET and speed will calculate your 0-60 times. \It's just math anyway, but after some pencil pushing and averaging, my centrifugal based MM has an average 0-60 time of 4.26 seconds. Lackluster and slushy...Indeed.

Care to run your numbers through this, Mike?

Okay...done. My 0-60 is 3.55.

Not sure what the hell it proves though:D

bigslim

11-10-2004, 07:45 PM

I ahve never driven a Vortech car but I riden in one. I myself didn't like the sound or what seemed to be the streetablity of the car. I think this is the reason most manufactors that put OEM blowers on their cars put Roots-type's on them. I see Mercedes, Ford and GM using Roots-Type. I think it is because of the durabilty and presentation of the product. Like I said I really don't care about the numbers like you guys do. I want a clean installation and enough power to mess with unsuspecting people. I will say it again, "BUY WHAT YOU WANT!"

MI2QWK4U

11-10-2004, 07:56 PM

What was the outcome of the heads up race at MV-II between Zack and Dave? I wasn't there, but I'm pretty sure I can see it played out in my mind's eye. Dave took the lead out of the gates, and Zack took the race, am I right? Moreover, while it's true that Lidio's roots is the fastest MM here right now, is it not true Zack's cerntrfugal charged MM ran 11.8x and 11.6x, and without juice? These are credible facts too, yes?

IMHO, both Zack and Dave's MMs are as identical as you could hope to see lined up against each other for an honest heads-up race. I believe this race is factual, fair, and as important as any book or magazine article in researching the topic.

You are kidding arent you Mac? An attempt at levity? My car is nowhere near as modded or on the edge as Zack's car. I rolled down to indy on my 93 octane everyday program. I made no modifications once I found out I was running Zack, who was able to play with his tune with his hand held tuner. I had no desire to put my car more on the edge just to win a drag race. So lets compare mods Mac...
At the time I had:
1) an Eaton blower with a 3 in pully doing just under 12 pounds of boost.
2) Pro-M MAF and conical filter.
3) 2 1/2 inch x pipe and magnaflow mufflers.
4) 3:73 rear end

Other mods have been made since Indy, but at the time I didnt have a wild stall converter, tall gears, elaborate exhause systems, Kooks headers, or anything else Zach may have on his car, since he doesnt show his mods, I have no way of knowing.
So how in the world to you consider his and mine equal? Based on my 4 major mods listed above, who thinks Zack and I are equal in the mods department? Dont get me wrong, his car is fast, very fast, but mine is real close to his with a fraction of the mods and drivability issues that may arise from overmodding a street car.
Not to burst your bubble though, since you werent there, I figured Ii would fill you in, I won 2 out of 3 runs against Zack.

Tallboy

11-10-2004, 08:03 PM

MI2QWK4U

11-10-2004, 08:14 PM

Thanks, Chuck. I wasn't sure.

Okay, Mike, I love a challenge. I snatched up all the timeslips I could find on short notice. I have a bunch that came with the car from Kenny Brown while it was being built and tested, but I wasn't the driver, so, I discounted them. Besides, I haven't been able to replicate Brendan Bernstein's back to back 11.78 and 11.82 anyway.

I collected 22 of MY slips, and ran the 1/8th mile data through the 0-60 MPH calculator at this site.

http://www.binaryinc.org/auto_calc/

Entering 1/8 mile ET and speed will calculate your 0-60 times. Now, I agree that this particular calculator may be off just a bit, but if we all use the same calculator, it's fair. It's just math anyway, but after some pencil pushing and averaging, my centrifugal based MM has an average 0-60 time of 4.26 seconds. Lackluster and slushy...Indeed. Care to run your numbers through this, Mike?

Anyone? It's roots/centrifugal indifferent, trust me. Might be nice to see just how much power we're talking about getting lost to slushy low end response.

Are you talking about IATs? If so, I monitor mine with a Davis CarChip EX, and my IAT is routinely 7-10 degrees BELOW ambient outside air temps, and it's been so since I took over the car. Is this what you mean? If not, nevermind.

I LOVE a challange! I just plugged my numbers thru that website you posted....

1/8 mile E.T. 7.681
1/8 mile Trap Speed 91.39 MPH
Results: 3.31 seconds for 0-60

Thanks!

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 08:23 PM

is it not true Zack's cerntrfugal charged MM ran 11.8x and 11.6x, and without juice? These are credible facts too, yes?

BTW, I actually don't know if this is fact or not. I still haven't seen a timeslip, so who knows for sure:confused:

Now, before anyone get's all worked up over this, be aware that I stated weeks ago that I summarily disregard any times without slips. Particularly so when the time listed claims to be in the top group. In my opinion anyone who wants to be taken seriously needs to prove it.

maraudernkc

11-10-2004, 08:52 PM

MikesMerc, Hot Rod 101 will also tell you that you that a DYNO is not the tell all truth. Drive her down the street than take her to the track. That is what matters.

I will certainly try to do this if I have the time, but timeslips have NOTHING to do with what I am talking about. There are just too many variables there such as other mods to the car like gearing and TC, as well as driver skill and track conditions. Using big gears and high rpm stall speeds as a "crutch" to get the centrifugal blowers into there boost producing rpms is great if that is what you want to do.

Instead, why not look at Dyno sheets? If you take the time to look, you will consistently find that the torque curves provided by roots blowers are broader and flatter in the lower end of the power band over centrifugal blowers. Again, this is hot rod 101.

You can certainly take the challenge of the dyno sheets if you want, but you ain't gonna be happy.

MikesMerc

11-10-2004, 09:06 PM

MikesMerc, Hot Rod 101 will also tell you that you that a DYNO is not the tell all truth.

Who ever said it was :confused:

But, when you are discussing power delivery based on blower applications a good dyno sheet tells much of the story. It clearly shows you where in the rpm band your power lies. It also doesn't bring in other performance variables which effect actual track results such as driver skill, traction, gearing, track conditions, etc,etc, etc. This is why so many street and track racing veterans use them.

That aside, I think my 0-60 time compared quite well to Mac's in his "challenge" for the "on the street" side of things:)

stevengerard

11-10-2004, 09:34 PM

I LOVE a challange! I just plugged my numbers thru that website you posted....

1/8 mile E.T. 7.681
1/8 mile Trap Speed 91.39 MPH
Results: 3.31 seconds for 0-60

Thanks!

My N/A pure stock maurader has the same trap speed -- in the 1/4 mile. These are some unreal 0 - 60 wow, I'd be happy with anything under 4.5

Zack

11-10-2004, 09:44 PM

How does that line go again? Ah yes...

Arguing over the internet is like competing in the special olympics.....

Even if you win, you're still retarted.

stevengerard

11-10-2004, 09:57 PM

How does that line go again? Ah yes...

Arguing over the internet is like competing in the special olympics.....

Even if you win, you're still retarted.

Yeah well my short yellow school bus has a super charger on it.

Bigdogjim

11-10-2004, 10:01 PM

Yeah well my short yellow school bus has a super charger on it.

Makes a difference you know. Which type :help: :burnout:

teamrope

11-10-2004, 10:03 PM

How does that line go again? Ah yes...

Arguing over the internet is like competing in the special olympics.....

Even if you win, you're still retarted.
HEY! I resemble that remark. ;)

studio460

11-10-2004, 10:51 PM

Okay, here's my set of constraints vs. wants . . .

CONSTRAINTS:
1. CALIFORNIA GAS SUCKS. You people in 93-94 octaneville don't know how good you've got it! Oxygenated, MBTE'ed, Ethanolized, crap 91-octane "premium" is all we can get here at the pump (and many times, I don't even think 91 is actually in the tanks). By the way, I just paid $2.62/gal. for a tank of 91 here in Los Angeles.
2. After nearly a dozen custom Jerry/SCT tweaks to my EEC profile, my N/A Marauder STILL pings, even with a slightly lowered operating temp via the 180-degree stat and two-step colder Densos. So, yeah, heat is a major concern.

WANTS:
1. Stoplight-to-stoplight fun, i.e., 60' times. This is all the fun I'm gonna have in this heavily congested city. So naturally, I wanted the Trilogy Roots blower.

DON'T CARES:
1. High-RPM HP not important to me—can't go that fast anywhere here anyway (again, Roots favored here).

DON'T LIKES:
1. $6K price tag of Trilogy solution.
2. $2K install price of Trilogy.
3. Trusting some guy in L.A. who's NOT Lidio or Dennis to do the install.

LIKES:
1. $4K (hopefully) price tag of ProCharger solution.
2. Simpler (and lower cost) installation of ProCharger solution.
3. Lower heat generated from centrifugal-based solutions since our California "premium" 91-octane fuel is so pizz poor.

So, of course, I would like all of the Trilogy benefits, and I agree that the Trilogy Eaton blower installed looks awesome. But price, ease of installation, and most importantly, a SAFE boost/tune/engine temp for use with crappy California gas are key factors in influencing my final decision.

Looking forward with great interest to hearing all about Dennis' ProCharger project as it develops!

HotrodMerc

11-11-2004, 12:21 AM

Amen to Big Slim's comment: for those not experienced with boosted engines, do your homework, think about how you are going to use the car or want to use it, how you want it to look under hood, if that matters to you, and buy what you want.
I would agree that for those that are going to use the car for typical street and highway driving, and want to really enjoy more performance from 0 - 70, as well as higher speed, and if you want to retain factory looks as much as possible, I would go with the Roots/positive displacement type. And I would not worry about heat with the intercooled Trilogy kit, esp. if you have an otherwise stock engine. Once you read up enough and ask those around with S/C's you could actually see and ride in or drive, you can probably make your own decision you are happy with. It's a personal thing, and if you are really into drag racing and similar driving on the street, or you just like the more sudden "rush" of power coming on at about 3,500 rpm vs. a more smooth power and torque curve, the centrifugals may be for you. I've driven both, and prefer the power/torque curves of the roots types, which to me are much easier to control in a street/road track situation, besides the low-end torque is always there for getting a heavy vehicle going. But again, it's a thing of what you want and what you get used to. Best advice: know what you are getting and why you want it.

As for positive displacement blower kits, the Trilogy Eaton is certainly nice, but I really would like to see a kit from Whipple (they're not planning on one now) or Kenne-Bell.
According to tests in MM & FF mag. these blowers have better torque/power curves than Eaton and run cooler. Ford and The General have embraced the Eaton equipment
which evidently gives it an edge in aftermarket business.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 12:51 AM

No, nothing is that cut and dried.

However, generally speaking, a roots blower which places more power gains into the lower rpm range tend to be more "street" oriented as they deliver power in the range most used on the street.

Centrifugals, tend to deliver greater power gains in the upper band which is where most track oriented cars want to be...especially through the use of big gears and high rpm stall speeds.

This is hot rod 101 folks nothing more. It doesn't mean you cannot do this, or cannot do that, its just basic conventional wisdom which makes a starting point in the process of choosing the blower.
I think you've said it best in the above quote Mike. And that's why the magazine article summed it up the way that it has, as I quoted in the first post of this thread.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 03:32 AM

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 03:53 AM

Now look at the centrifugal suprcharger similarities here below......

sailsmen

11-11-2004, 04:00 AM

I rarely race on the street, know about too many tragedies. :depress:

The Track is Where it's At. :D

sailsmen

11-11-2004, 04:12 AM

Per Lidio, "When I campaigned and drag raced Trilogy number one last year with only the stock Trilogy blower kit and nothing else done to the car, and I mean nuuuuthing…. it ran a very impressive 12.95 with 93 octane in 50-60 degree temps and 13.2’s to 13.4’s when it got to be about 85-90 degree temps. Then just before our trip to TX we then stepped up the boost to about 12psi and added 4.10’s, this got it into the mid 12’s with a best of 12.43."

N/A I am running 13.9 @ 73*. Two other members were hitting 13.5 N/A in cool air.

One member that had a Roots in the Deep South reported pinging and oil temps of 260*.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 04:18 AM

Two other members were hitting 13.5 N/A in cool air.

Yeah, w/dual position chips switched in the race gas mode, and having 100 octane race gas in the tank. Do that w/a Trilogized car, and you'll be in the high 11's.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 04:31 AM

Now that we've sliced and diced it all which way, let's look at appearences.....

Here below are some pics of some serious machines. And look at the similarities they have to the Trilogy roots Supercharger......
<FIELDSET class=fieldset><LEGEND>Attached Thumbnails</LEGEND>http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 84&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 84) http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 85&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 85) http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 87&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 87) http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 89&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 89) http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 90&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 90)

</FIELDSET>
:banana2: :banana2: :banana2: :banana2: !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!............. ..............

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 04:32 AM

Now look at the centrifugal suprcharger similarities here below......


<FIELDSET class=fieldset><LEGEND>Attached Thumbnails</LEGEND>http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 91&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 91) http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 92&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 92)
</FIELDSET>
:puke: .............................. ...

martyo

11-11-2004, 04:49 AM

Now look at the centrifugal suprcharger similarities here below......

Billy go get your own photos and stop stealing mine!

:( :shake: :( :shake:

MikesMerc

11-11-2004, 05:39 AM

Originally Posted by MikesMerc
No, nothing is that cut and dried.

However, generally speaking, a roots blower which places more power gains into the lower rpm range tend to be more "street" oriented as they deliver power in the range most used on the street.

Centrifugals, tend to deliver greater power gains in the upper band which is where most track oriented cars want to be...especially through the use of big gears and high rpm stall speeds.

This is hot rod 101 folks nothing more. It doesn't mean you cannot do this, or cannot do that, its just basic conventional wisdom which makes a starting point in the process of choosing the blower.

I think you've said it best in the above quote Mike. And that's why the magazine article summed it up the way that it has, as I quoted in the first post of this thread.

That's all been trying to say all along. Pointing out the fact that conventional wisdom suggests that a positive displacment blower works best for a heavy car with a smaller cubic engine on the street seems to garner nothing but personal attacks from those who are "uncomfortable" with thier purchase or position on the matter. That's just sad and quite unfair to the new folks looking for info.

Just because my 91 5.0 Mustang Nothcback runs 10s with a Vortech on it doesn't mean I hafta "push" that choice on anyone here if it isn't the best fit for the marauder. I'm not sure why others feel the need to do just that.

FordNut

11-11-2004, 07:32 AM

Just because my 91 5.0 Mustang Nothcback runs 10s with a Vortech on it doesn't mean I hafta "push" that choice on anyone here...
It appears to me that the centrifugal blower threads are primarily being started to provide more options.

The only ones trying to "push" their choice on others is the Eaton guys. Can't take it that all your arguments still don't convince everyone that your choice is the best.

Why not start a "roots blower" thread so all you can line up and beat your chests, pat each other on the back, and make fun of the rest of us morons that are too stupid to put the "right" blower on our cars. We insist on screwing up a perfectly good car even though you have done everything you can to enlighten us. I promise not to post any centrifugal blower comments in your thread if you'll stay the hell out of the centrifugal threads.

maraudernkc

11-11-2004, 07:52 AM

BillyGman, I wish you could have found a chrome haid dryer. I just think it would have loked better. That is pretty funny. I will admit there is some resemblence.:burnout:

Now look at the centrifugal suprcharger similarities here below......


<FIELDSET class=fieldset><LEGEND>Attached Thumbnails</LEGEND>http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 91&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 91) http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 92&stc=1&thumb=1 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=45 92)

</FIELDSET>

:puke: .............................. ...

sailsmen

11-11-2004, 07:53 AM

I second the motion! :)

maraudernkc

11-11-2004, 07:59 AM

I say let the newbies drive both types of blowers on a MM and make there own decsion. I don't care what they buy as long as they are happy. The only reason I am doing the Pro Charger deal is to offer MM owners that can't afford 6K or do not want to spend 6K another price option. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Originally Posted by MikesMerc
No, nothing is that cut and dried.

However, generally speaking, a roots blower which places more power gains into the lower rpm range tend to be more "street" oriented as they deliver power in the range most used on the street.

Centrifugals, tend to deliver greater power gains in the upper band which is where most track oriented cars want to be...especially through the use of big gears and high rpm stall speeds.

This is hot rod 101 folks nothing more. It doesn't mean you cannot do this, or cannot do that, its just basic conventional wisdom which makes a starting point in the process of choosing the blower.

That's all been trying to say all along. Pointing out the fact that conventional wisdom suggests that a positive displacment blower works best for a heavy car with a smaller cubic engine on the street seems to garner nothing but personal attacks from those who are "uncomfortable" with thier purchase or position on the matter. That's just sad and quite unfair to the new folks looking for info.

Just because my 91 5.0 Mustang Nothcback runs 10s with a Vortech on it doesn't mean I hafta "push" that choice on anyone here if it isn't the best fit for the marauder. I'm not sure why others feel the need to do just that.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 09:18 AM

Billy go get your own photos and stop stealing mine!

:( :shake: :( :shake:LOL!!!!!! hey, I never said that your car isn't fast Martin. :D

But I searched three different centrifugal S/Cer websites for pics, and I noticed that on the ones that I was on, they didn't even have pics of each of their centrifugal models. Whereas the roots and the twin-screw S/Cer companies have plenty of pics of each model that they make. Now I wonder why that can be. Ofcourse I didn't go on every centrifugal S/Cer site around, but after searching for 20 minutes just to find a decent pic of one of those things, I got ged up and just decided to use your pic of the three Procharger brand centrifugal units. I hope you din't have copywrites to those pics. Or should I now expect a threatening letter concerning the possibility of "defamation of character" Litigation? :rofl:

MikesMerc

11-11-2004, 09:19 AM

The only reason I am doing the Pro Charger deal is to offer MM owners that can't afford 6K or do not want to spend 6K another price option. I don't think there is anything wrong with that.

Neither do I. In fact, as I my first post in the Pro Charger thread said, I think is a GREAT idea!

My only objection comes in when others (not you), embelish on the facts by saying or implying that any blower will work fine and produce equivalent results without considering all the aspects of the project such as additional mods, budget, etc. And I am just not sure what makes some folks so uncomfortable about the general rule of thumb that heavy cars with lower displacement motors are best served by a positive displacement blower.

That said, for those who are budget conscious, or plan on running big gears and high rpm stalls, want to be different, or just like the way it looks, I am absolutely sure the Pro Charger kit can indeed make a great choice that the owner can be proud of!

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 09:19 AM

BillyGman, I wish you could have found a chrome haid dryer. I just think it would have loked better. That is pretty funny. I will admit there is some resemblence.:burnout:
Well atleast I've managed to make someone laugh today. That's cool that you have a sense of humor about it. Peace. :banana2:

maraudernkc

11-11-2004, 10:05 AM

MikesMerc, I will not say that until after I have driven the car with the blower on and tuned and than I will make my evaultion. I would never steer anyone in any one direction just because I have a certian typr of SC.

Neither do I. In fact, as I my first post in the Pro Charger thread said, I think is a GREAT idea!

My only objection comes in when others (not you), embelish on the facts by saying or implying that any blower will work fine and produce equivalent results without considering all the aspects of the project such as additional mods, budget, etc. And I am just not sure what makes some folks so uncomfortable about the general rule of thumb that heavy cars with lower displacement motors are best served by a positive displacement blower.

That said, for those who are budget conscious, or plan on running big gears and high rpm stalls, want to be different, or just like the way it looks, I am absolutely sure the Pro Charger kit can indeed make a great choice that the owner can be proud of!

maraudernkc

11-11-2004, 10:09 AM

tmac1337

11-11-2004, 10:18 AM

As usual, the pro's and con's of each type, centrifical or roots, has been expressed. But that does not change anything. If the Procharger kit comes in a @ $4K, they will sell big time. Go ahead, keep weighing all the pro's and con's. How about this pro, pay $4k plus around $500 for installation and you have a kit installed for @ $4500. If I had payed 6K, plus $200 in shipping, plus $1-2K for installation, I guess I would defend that choice to the end to justify it in my own mind too. But that does not make that kit better above and beyond the other, just a lot more expensive, out of the range most people can afford.

I'll say if plain and simple, poor gasoline on me if you want guys (I'm not criticizing a roots type blower), I think you have paid double what the kit costs to put together. Weigh your R&D rebuttal. I know it costs $ to develop a kit. But for people who have made a profession out of engines and blowers, it is not that much vs. the profit later. Why because there has been no competition to drive the price down. In any kind of financial market that is a bad thing, why lower a price when you do not have to.

I have spoken to Greg a couple of times ref. the Procharger. It is my opinion he is the real deal. A true car enthusiaist who has a friend at Procharger and knows people with the expertise to put together a kit at a very affordable price that he is going to relay to us, one car enthusiaist to another. Not to be a vendor and line his pockets overflowing with cash, but to let others have the opportunity to enjoy a blown car just like he will in a couple of weeks. Thank you Greg. For being the first one to do this for us.

I would say that alone is a big PRO for the Procharger kit. The pro's and con's of roots vs. centrifical can continued to be debated. For $4k I will be very happy with a centrifical and I do not care who knows it.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 10:20 AM

Has anyone on this site driven a MM with a Roots Blower and driven a MM with a Centrifical Blower with about the same mods?

.
That's an interesting question you have there. I think the tricky thing is about the possible answers that you might get is that there might be very few Marauders that are modified similarly on this entire board, let alone ones that are S/Ced. So it's a difficult apples to apples comparisant to find. besides different stal speeds, gear ratios, and exhaust set-ups, you then have to consider if either of the two S/Ced marauders being compared were running the same boost pressure as the original purchased kit came with as well as if either car has been equipped w/a dual position chip that enables a more agrressive timing advance for running 100 octane race gas, and if infact there was race gas in the tank of one of the cars being comapred during the test drive.If so, then that wouldn't be a realistic comparisant since nobody who I know of here uses race gas on the street every day. And yet most people DO purchase a S/Cer for a street car which will be used either daily, or atleast very often during the week on the street.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 10:23 AM

tmac1337

11-11-2004, 10:25 AM

And as for appearance under the hood...WHO CARES! If you are a person who goes to the shows and lifts his hood for everyone to see, eww and ahh, then that's your thing. Under the hood is under the hood. I have tailored the $ I have spent on mods toward performance. I want power and performance under the hood. I do not care if it looks like a hairdryer. Just give me the horsies and torque. How often do you lift up the hood and say to someone "look how fantastic my engine looks!" 99% of people have no idea what they are looking at. Have them drive the car and they will know they are driving a performance car.

Appearance....big deal.

TAF

11-11-2004, 10:26 AM

I've been fortunate enough to drive them all ('cept for "The Bull"...which "snorted" at me when I got too close)...they're all good, all fast. Y'all need to go "blow" yourselves :P ....there's a LOT of hot air in here to go around.

Me? I'm N/A and proud of it.

tmac1337

11-11-2004, 10:27 AM

So then you admit then that a Procharger kit purchase would be a compromise made in order to be frugal.

I admit no such thing. Both units have pro's and con's. The procharger will be the only kit for a realistic affordable price that is not meant to line someones pocket. That had nothing to do with the pro's and con's of either type.

PAYING 4k IS NOT BEING FRUGAL, BUT PAYING A REASONABLE PRICE FOR WHAT YOU HAVE BOUGHT.

It is much easier to admit that you have paid a reasonable price than to admit that you paid twice as much. No one wants to admit they overpayed, were price gauged, and look bad. So what do they do. They keep talking up that product, justifying to themselves and others that they were not taken advantage off.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 10:34 AM

And as for appearance under the hood...WHO CARES! If you are a person who goes to the shows and lifts his hood for everyone to see, eww and ahh, then that's your thing. Appearance....big deal.
I care what my engine looks like even though I do take my car to the track and race it. At the track your hood is open very often between runs to cool the engine down. perhaps if you've ever raced at the track, then you're aware of that. But I've only brought that up because you have. The main reason for me is because of how I MYSELF want it to look, simply because of my LUV for the hi-perf V8 engine. And there are others who feel the same way. perhaps you have no concern of what your ebgine looks like, but maybe for that matter having a V8 under the hood isn't important to you either.

But surely you can understand the visual effect just as I'm sure you would understand the awesome sound of headers on a V8 engine when you wind it up. if you can't, then I guess you can also say the same about a rice burner car. Some of them are made to be very fast. The engines look and sound like garbage, but who cares? Right? As long as they're powerfull. Right? WRONG. Some of us DO care how the engine looks and sounds.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 10:36 AM

Both units have pro's and con's. The procharger will be the only kit for a realistic affordable price that is not meant to line someones pocket. YOU HAVE BOUGHT.Oh,no....the kit will be nothing more than a charity contribution, right? C'mon. Get real. This is capatilism we're talking about here for ANY modification.

tmac1337

11-11-2004, 10:39 AM

I care what my engine looks like even though I do take my car to the track and race it. At the track your hood is open very often between runs to cool the engine down. perhaps if you've ever raced at the track, then you're aware of that. But I've only brought that up because you have. The main reason for me is because of how I MYSELF want it to look, simply because of my LUV for the hi-perf V8 engine. And there are others who feel the same way. perhaps you have no concern of what your ebgine looks like, but maybe for that matter having a V8 under the hood isn't important to you either.

But surely you can understand the visual effect just as I'm sure you would understand the awesome sound of headers on a V8 engine when you wind it up. if you can't, then I guess you can also say the same about a rice burner car. Some of them are made to be very fast. The engines look and sound like garbage, but who cares? Right? As long as they're powerfull. Right? WRONG. Some of us DO care how the engine looks and sounds.

Billy, I will say it openly for all to see here. I respect your technical expertise that you post occasionally. It's good to share info. But your opinions and how they are pushed is another matter.

tmac1337

11-11-2004, 10:41 AM

Oh,no....the kit will be nothing more than a charity contribution, right? C'mon. Get real. This is capatilism we're talking about here for ANY modification.

If that's the case a certain person is very happy your pushing his product and increasing his capital flow.

duhtroll

11-11-2004, 10:42 AM

Which BTW, the variety in choices is why we are so lucky with our car's aftermarket. I think this entire debate is silly. It's like Coke vs. Pepsi vs. RC. Two are better and more expensive. One is cheaper and not quite the ****zy. So freakin' what?

As far as the "compromise to be frugal," that's just plain silly. EVERYTHING is a compromise to be frugal at some point. EVEN, dare I say it, Hellboy is a compromise. I can take $12 million and build the best friggin' race car on the planet, and then it would be considered a compromise because someone would then spend $15 million and be faster.

If you are out to be the best drag racer in town, you should have a top fuel car by now (if they are even the fastest). If you're talking street drags and want to be the best, you shouldn't even be on this board. That's not why anyone here bought a MM, and if you did you are seriously lacking in the IQ department. It simply ain't gonna be the fastest out there. So everyone here made a compromise.

If I can get within .5 seconds and be just as safe as someone with a full roots kit (which is a healthy possibility here) and save $2K, guess what? I'm going to do it.

If I was planning to outrace everyone here, I'd do it in a cobra. The Marauder would be a compromise. But then again so would the Cobra. See the point?

"Anyone want a ProCharger option?"

"Get a Trilogy. It's better."

"Wait, people running Vortechs are getting similar times."

"I don't want to spend that much. Anyone want a ProCharger option?"

Repeat ad nauseum on several threads.

Sorry to be blunt, but this same debate of which is better is what's happened at least a dozen times on this board. Can we perhaps move on now?

We should be thanking our lucky stars we have the choice. You can taunt me in person if my car is slower than yours. I promise to not take it personally.

-A

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 10:42 AM

Me? I'm N/A and proud of it.
Oh, so you're content with only driving others' blown Marauders, and not your own? :burn: :rofl: (just toyin' w/ya Todd).

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 10:45 AM

If that's the case a certain person is very happy your pushing his product and increasing his capital flow.
So what are you implying? Why not make yourself clear? Is there an accusation in there someplace? Bring it on. And would you say the same thing about yourself concerning those new mufflers you started a thread about?

Bigdogjim

11-11-2004, 10:52 AM

I've been fortunate enough to drive them all ..they're all good, all fast. Me? I'm N/A and proud of it.

I also agree with view point :P :burnout:

SergntMac

11-11-2004, 10:57 AM

And I am just not sure what makes some folks so uncomfortable about the general rule of thumb that heavy cars with lower displacement motors are best served by a positive displacement blower.
Perhaps because it's not really true, at least true in the degree of the rhetoric heard here and blown (excuse my pun) way out proportion.

Yes, there differences in torque production in the lower RPM range between roots and centrifugal, but it's not as severe, or, critical as it's made out to be. Neither is this evidence of any superiority or leader vs. loser. In fact, both systems perform so remarkably similar, I agree with the advice that either would be fine, make your choice based on what fits your life.

One cannot go wrong with either of the two kits now available, and the 3rd soon to arrive kit may rock us all.

Okay...done. My 0-60 is 3.55. Not sure what the hell it proves though:D
I'm surprised to hear you don't get this, Mike, considering all of your experience in building, driving and racing cars.

For the benefit of newbies and guests, the lower the 0-60 MPH time, the quicker the launch, and the greater the tug in the seat-of-your-pants, aka "low end grunt." This is the only way I can imagine to prove, or, disprove what's actually happening.

Yes, you can see things in a smooth torque curve of a dyno graph, and you can read even more in a row and column report from a dyno pull. However, neither can be driven down the street in down right scary demonstration for the owner considering a major mod to his MM. Moreover, the 0-60 MPH index is a component of almost every automotive magazine review out there, because it's the index that explains (describes, predicts) what the driver may expect from behind the wheel.

I drew numbers from out timeslip database and did a little crunching. Here's our top MM performers, based on what I presume is their all time best posted in our data base. All but jspradii and CruzTaker are supercharged.

Lidio-2.95 (roots-NOS)
Zack-3.16 (cent)
JET-3.29 (root)
BillyGMan-3.31 (root)
MI2QUK4U-3.31 (root)
MarauderMike-3.55 (unk)
Logan-3.59 (root)
SergntMac-3.91 (cent)
Nathan-3.91 (unk)
Jspradii-4.00 (N/A+NOS)
MarauderMark-4.03 (unk)
Buckwheat-4.26 (root)
CruzTaker-4.61 (N/A)

Earlier in this thread, I posted my seasonal average of 22 runs as 4.26, but I used my single best time ever of 12.79 here. My 1/8 mile was 8.207/86.88 MPH.

When I started out, I felt I was sure I would be handing the roots enthuiasts the proof they would need to present a convincing argument and I would not have minded that. Maybe if there was more solid proof that's not tainted with cynical wisecracks and veiled innuendo, more would listen and less would argue.

I failed. I cannot see the remarkable gut wrenching sacry hang-on-to-your-azz and pray torque DIFFERENCE of the roots vs. the centrifugal in these numbers. Oh, it's there, but it looks like both styles enjoy it. I don't know about y'all but a 0-60 time anywhere in the 3s is pretty damm scary to me.

Maybe the calculator is wrong, or, maybe it's not that much of a difference after all. Y'all decide, I'm just posting numbers.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 10:57 AM

WOW!!! This is more lively than I've seen this board in a long time. this S/Cer thing is a real hot button!!! ;) Supercharger Mania :banana2::banana2: :banana2:

SergntMac

11-11-2004, 11:09 AM

Sorry to be blunt, but this same debate of which is better is what's happened at least a dozen times on this board. Can we perhaps move on now? -A
Dude, you do pretty good yourself with political issues, and I stay way out of your way there because you run it. But, tired of this? Well, leave us alone? At least we're trying to keep it neat and in one thread, eh?

martyo

11-11-2004, 11:18 AM

Y'all need a hobby. Might I suggest knitting???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 11:19 AM

Dude, you do pretty good yourself with political issues, and I stay way out of your way there because you run it. But, tired of this? Well, leave us alone? At least we're trying to keep it neat and in one thread, eh?
Yep, I agree w/Mac. I admit that I do get very outspoken, and I get my jabs in, but I mean no offense, and I do try to draw a certain line for myself that shouldn't be crossed. I try to remain respectfull to people while I'm disagreeing w/them. Perhaps there have been isolated times when I've fallen short of that personal goal, but that is infact my goal. I don't merely befriend nor reject anyone simply because of their choice of modifications to their car either, but as you can see, I DO have some strong feeling about S/Cers and occassionally I like to share them as do many of us here. if that's offended omeone, then please let me explain that I've meant no offense, and that IF you're offended by these things, then perhaps you should move on to the next thread. Nobody twists anyone's arm to read nor participate.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 11:20 AM

Y'all need a hobby. Might I suggest knitting???

:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:Yeah, but what design should the knitting needle be of? Centrifugal or roots?

....and I thought that one of our "hobbies" was the Marauder..:confused:

MikesMerc

11-11-2004, 11:49 AM

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 11:52 AM

But no one likes what I have to say :confused:Not true Mike, but it might not even be worth it since anyone who was undecided before this thread is either more confused now than ever, and will start researching for themselves, or they've already made their mind up by the info given here thus far.

duhtroll

11-11-2004, 12:38 PM

Mac -

Forgive the disagreement, but . . .

I seriously doubt I run anything here. I'm not a 7 post-per day guy like many around. I only step in on discussions when I feel I have something to add, or maybe when I'm just messing around. For that matter, I have found that people for the most part tend to believe what they want to believe most of the time so I don't necessarily expect my posts to have much effect on anyone here. "Minds are made up" as someone recently said, and there's no use trying to change 'em. They'll change them on their own if they decide it's in their interests.

As far as # of threads, you must mean at least 12 threads because I'll put money down that says every single S/C thread in the last year has boiled down to the same discussion. Unless someone is going to go in and delete all of them, they are in the archives. I will also bet there are now more S/C threads than oil threads. I ain't wasting time lookin' 'em up tho'.

Since you brought it up, the Roots/Vortech debate is very, *very* similar to Bush/Kerry stuff, albeit with less namecalling. :P

What I am saying is that "we" are not discussing anything new. (I read all threads because I unlike many here don't know a torque wrench from a, well, some other kind of tool and I do this for fun and to learn) It's all been said many times. When someone comes on board and asks the differences between 2003 and 2004, 300A and B, they are most often directed to the archives.

I'm not offended by anything here, but I do think we could at least wait for the kit to surface before trying to blow holes in it. (yep, pun intended)

With so much knowledge here, I just figured "we" could help each other out.

-A

Sorry for the hijack - back to your regularly scheduled program.

Dude, you do pretty good yourself with political issues, and I stay way out of your way there because you run it. But, tired of this? Well, leave us alone? At least we're trying to keep it neat and in one thread, eh?

sailsmen

11-11-2004, 12:43 PM

Billy I do want to thank you for starting this thread, for the most part it has been civilized, but more importantly I have learned from the thread.

I believe that's what it is all about. :banana2:

Although I have made 79+ runs in my MM at the track ( can you say addiction, the wife enrolled me in Auto Annonymos), spent my high school years on muscle cars, college years on sports cars, rebuilt/repowred, restored several cars from a 1974 914 VW Porsche to a 1973 440 Magnum Charger, I am still a novice. :cool:

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 12:48 PM

Just for clarification:

One of the reasons I started this thread in the first place was because I had things to say about the S/Cer magazine article that a moderator from this board has posted, with which I agreed. I felt that it would've been out of place to throw it into the Procharger thread since that thread was started to promote Dennis Reinhart's new and upcoming Procharger brand S/Cer kit. I had already got a little bit into the roots vs. centrifugal debate over there, and i saw that it wouldn't be a good thing to continue that since the thread was supposed to be about the procharger brand specifically. So rather than throwing this magazine article in dennis Reinhart's face and thereby putting him on the defensive, I decided to start this thread concerning the veiwpoints of what's best for a heavy weighted street car by that magazine. So I never intended for this to become specifically about the Procharger brand nor any one specific brand of S/Cer, but rather about centrifugal vs. roots type S/cers of which there are various brands for both types. Sure it's always going to be a natural chain of events for there to be brand names brought up by various posts and board members, but this thread is NOT specifically about the Procharger brand, and it's the other thread that was supposed to be.

And BTW, Sailsmen, I hear ya guy, and I can relate to what YOU'VE said. :)

Black Terror

11-11-2004, 12:57 PM

Yes, I have driven Marauder with Trilogy, Vortech, & Kenny Brown with 4.10 gears, High Flow Exhaust System and Headers. They all had their positive points and performed mighty well. Which one I prefer depends on what I want out of the car, all are good.
The fastest car I have ridden in is the Turbo setup, Performance was outstanding with 4 people in the vehicle. Only negative of Turbo Setup was the exhaust hanging too low in the front, they may have fixed it by this time.

BillyGman

11-11-2004, 01:01 PM

The fastest car I have ridden in is the Turbo setup, Performance was outstanding with 4 people in the vehicle. Only negative of Turbo Setup was the exhaust hanging too low in the front, they may have fixed it by this time.I believe that's the Marauder that the engine blew. I say that because it was the ony Turbocharged Marauder that I've heard of, and was also the only Marauder engine that I've ever heard of that had ANY means of forced induction that blew up.Todd (aka "TAF") who's from your homestate was the one who told me about that. Please correct me on that IF infact you're positive that it isn't the case.

Black Terror

11-11-2004, 01:13 PM

The only thing I saw/heard of him blowing is the transmission which went out on dyno run.

MikesMerc

11-11-2004, 01:37 PM

Perhaps because it's not really true

It most surely is true. in fact, BillyG linked the article at the opening of this very thread. The conclusion of the article is quite clear and very consistent with information all over the web about the best blower choice for any given application. Its a fact that, generally speaking with all other vaiables being constant, that displacement blowers are the best choice for low cubic inch motored heavy cars.....period. For some reason a select few members on this board are just unwilling to except it for some reason.

Neither is this evidence of any superiority or leader vs. loser. In fact, both systems perform so remarkably similar

No offense meant, but its a simple matter of you not doing enough homework then. If i can point to several articles which discuss the point that heavy cars with small motors are generally a better fit with displacement blowers does that still not convince you? Can you show me just one article which recommends that a heavy car with a small motor is best suited to a centrifugal blower? Just one?

I'm surprised to hear you don't get this, Mike, considering all of your experience in building, driving and racing cars.

The calculator works just fine for the purpose you are trying to use it for...that's not the problem.

The problem is that your 0-60 statisitc doesn't tell you where the performance comes from. What was it that resulted in the 0-60 times that are being compared?

Was it good traction? Was it the quality of the tires or rims?
Was it driver skill?
Was it track conditions?
Was it the weather?
Was it the wieght of the car and driver?
Was it the size of the rear gear?
Was it the stall speed of the torque converter?
Was it the tune?
Was it other mods to the car?
Was it the blower?
Was it something not mentioned here?

Who knows.

Bottom line is that 0-60 proves nothing except that the car can go 0-60 is said time. We might be able to generalize the car as "quick" "slow" or whatever, but we certainly cannot tell how much the blower alone had to do with the performance outcome.

See what i mean?

MikesMerc

11-11-2004, 01:43 PM

maraudernkc

11-11-2004, 01:53 PM

If you were running a Centrifical Blower at the track you would not have to raise your hood to cool it down. There alredy cool!:banana:

Now that's funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

I care what my engine looks like even though I do take my car to the track and race it. At the track your hood is open very often between runs to cool the engine down. perhaps if you've ever raced at the track, then you're aware of that. But I've only brought that up because you have. The main reason for me is because of how I MYSELF want it to look, simply because of my LUV for the hi-perf V8 engine. And there are others who feel the same way. perhaps you have no concern of what your ebgine looks like, but maybe for that matter having a V8 under the hood isn't important to you either.

But surely you can understand the visual effect just as I'm sure you would understand the awesome sound of headers on a V8 engine when you wind it up. if you can't, then I guess you can also say the same about a rice burner car. Some of them are made to be very fast. The engines look and sound like garbage, but who cares? Right? As long as they're powerfull. Right? WRONG. Some of us DO care how the engine looks and sounds.

MikesMerc

11-11-2004, 02:04 PM

If you were running a Centrifical Blower at the track you would not have to raise your hood to cool it down. There alredy cool!

LOL....anyone who doesn't raise their hood at the track in between runs to cool down is a total idiot. Blown, gassed, or normally aspirated, unless you are running in True Street which requires closed hood, you'd best be opning it up. Yikes, that is such a basic track procedure its frightening to think that someone who is recommending blower choices doesn't know that:eek:

have you ever been to the track?

TechHeavy

11-11-2004, 02:05 PM

BTW, I will add here that I am not upset or angry with anyone on the thread. I think we've kept it civil and i think everyone is enjoying a good debate. As long as it doesn't get to personal flaming, whats the harm?
If I can pitch in my newbie 2 cents worth?? :)

My MM was bought just 3 months ago. I wanted to supercharge it before the snow starts falling. I needed info, and was preparing for a gruelling research task of many weeks. However, guys like BillyGman, (primarily... with many other supporting members) with their informative posts saved weeks of research on my own. I'd just like to thank BillyGman and others who have answered my call for help.
This is my analogy... I was a Computer Science major in college. When people need help with computers they come to me, (even my boss... a plus!). I expect it, because I follow all the trends, new products, statistical benchmarks... you name it. I think it's smart for others to come to me for help in this field....
OK, fast forward to my new MM. Why should I not hinder the advice of someone VERY knowledgeable in the supercharging arena who knows all the angles, as I do with modern computer architecture??

Thanks BillyGman for showing me that a heavy car, (the MM) needs more low-end torque off the line for gut-wrenching muscle car performance!

I've ordered my Trilogy kit and am expecting it shortly.

As the German stewardess once addressed us on a flight back from Europe, "We are pleased you have chosen us, thank you and goodbye!"

Tallboy

11-11-2004, 02:09 PM

one of the hot buttons to this argument appears to be price, and the markup involved. i believe you'll find that those of us who work for ourselves will find that gross profit percentage compared to development, research, and advertising cost is about the same in a supercharger kit as it is in the oil filter you buy, it's just on a larger dollar amount. if you knew what your house cost to build vs. the price you paid, you'd be sick. those of us who built our own homes know the differences already. see? you can apply this to any product you buy. the gross profit percentage on any of the top ten products we have purchased is within a few points from top to bottom. the vendors here that read this will nod in silent acccord. nobody's trying to hose anybody. we're all here for the same reason-our love of cars. whether we are a consumer or vendor is irrelevant. we need each other. think about it the next time you buy a cup of coffee...:)

maraudernkc

11-11-2004, 02:10 PM

SergntMac, you hit the nail on the head. Forget about the Dyno the real deal is what it drive like on the street and your times at the track.

You are on the money!

Perhaps because it's not really true, at least true in the degree of the rhetoric heard here and blown (excuse my pun) way out proportion.

Yes, there differences in torque production in the lower RPM range between roots and centrifugal, but it's not as severe, or, critical as it's made out to be. Neither is this evidence of any superiority or leader vs. loser. In fact, both systems perform so remarkably similar, I agree with the advice that either would be fine, make your choice based on what fits your life.

One cannot go wrong with either of the two kits now available, and the 3rd soon to arrive kit may rock us all.

I'm surprised to hear you don't get this, Mike, considering all of your experience in building, driving and racing cars.

For the benefit of newbies and guests, the lower the 0-60 MPH time, the quicker the launch, and the greater the tug in the seat-of-your-pants, aka "low end grunt." This is the only way I can imagine to prove, or, disprove what's actually happening.

Yes, you can see things in a smooth torque curve of a dyno graph, and you can read even more in a row and column report from a dyno pull. However, neither can be driven down the street in down right scary demonstration for the owner considering a major mod to his MM. Moreover, the 0-60 MPH index is a component of almost every automotive magazine review out there, because it's the index that explains (describes, predicts) what the driver may expect from behind the wheel.

I drew numbers from out timeslip database and did a little crunching. Here's our top MM performers, based on what I presume is their all time best posted in our data base. All but jspradii and CruzTaker are supercharged.

Lidio-2.95 (roots-NOS)
Zack-3.16 (cent)
JET-3.29 (root)
BillyGMan-3.31 (root)
MI2QUK4U-3.31 (root)
MarauderMike-3.55 (unk)
Logan-3.59 (root)
SergntMac-3.91 (cent)
Nathan-3.91 (unk)
Jspradii-4.00 (N/A+NOS)
MarauderMark-4.03 (unk)
Buckwheat-4.26 (root)
CruzTaker-4.61 (N/A)

Earlier in this thread, I posted my seasonal average of 22 runs as 4.26, but I used my single best time ever of 12.79 here. My 1/8 mile was 8.207/86.88 MPH.

When I started out, I felt I was sure I would be handing the roots enthuiasts the proof they would need to present a convincing argument and I would not have minded that. Maybe if there was more solid proof that's not tainted with cynical wisecracks and veiled innuendo, more would listen and less would argue.

I failed. I cannot see the remarkable gut wrenching sacry hang-on-to-your-azz and pray torque DIFFERENCE of the roots vs. the centrifugal in these numbers. Oh, it's there, but it looks like both styles enjoy it. I don't know about y'all but a 0-60 time anywhere in the 3s is pretty damm scary to me.

Maybe the calculator is wrong, or, maybe it's not that much of a difference after all. Y'all decide, I'm just posting numbers.

MikesMerc

11-11-2004, 02:20 PM

Another quick point, contrary to what some folks might want people to beleive, centrfugal blowers do indeed get mighty hot. This is why many kits that run anything over 6 to 8 psi are suggested to come with an after cooler.

Just for reference, know that the standard Vortech S-Trim at a mild 8 psi puts out an air charge temp of about 200 degrees. That's not cool folks.

BTW, here is a reference on the vortech discharge temps for those who need proof: http://www.mustang50magazine.com/techarticles/65218/

And, before anyone gets too excited, the other centrifugal blower manufacturers operate within 10% of the same efficiency.

maraudernkc

11-11-2004, 02:22 PM

Good luck with your new kit!!!

If I can pitch in my newbie 2 cents worth?? :)

My MM was bought just 3 months ago. I wanted to supercharge it before the snow starts falling. I needed info, and was preparing for a gruelling research task of many weeks. However, guys like BillyGman, (primarily... with many other supporting members) with their informative posts saved weeks of research on my own. I'd just like to thank BillyGman and others who have answered my call for help.
This is my analogy... I was a Computer Science major in college. When people need help with computers they come to me, (even my boss... a plus!). I expect it, because I follow all the trends, new products, statistical benchmarks... you name it. I think it's smart for others to come to me for help in this field....
OK, fast forward to my new MM. Why should I not hinder the advice of someone VERY knowledgeable in the supercharging arena who knows all the angles, as I do with modern computer architecture??

Thanks BillyGman for showing me that a heavy car, (the MM) needs more low-end torque off the line for gut-wrenching muscle car performance!

I've ordered my Trilogy kit and am expecting it shortly.

As the German stewardess once addressed us on a flight back from Europe, "We are pleased you have chosen us, thank you and goodbye!"

MikesMerc

11-11-2004, 02:24 PM

SergntMac, you hit the nail on the head. Forget about the Dyno the real deal is what it drive like on the street and your times at the track.

You are on the money!

Right, and that's why all the top runners on the timeslip page (with actual timeslips) are running roots blowers :lol:

MikesMerc

11-11-2004, 02:25 PM

You guys must have alot of money to drop damm near a third of the price of your car on a blower and install. You might want to wait to buy your Trilogy. After the Pro Charger kit comes out at 4K Trilogy will be having a BLOWOUT SALE>:puke:

You bet...if you are willing to "settle" for second rate its always cheaper..LOL

sailsmen

11-11-2004, 03:14 PM

Sergent Mac - You must realize when it comes to beliefs the facts don't matter. Learn to accept it.

I am begining to accept it myself. :D

MI2QWK4U

11-11-2004, 03:14 PM

Has anyone on this site driven a MM with a Roots Blower and driven a MM with a Centrifical Blower with about the same mods?

If you have I would like to hear what you have to say about both.

I think we have alot of people slinging sh** that have not driven both including myself.

A DYNO run does not tell the whole story and anybody that has been around cars or motorcycles knows that.

Yes, I have driven both types of supercharged Marauders, mine and several other roots cars around town, from mild to wild, as well as a Vortech equipped Marauder. I remember thinking to myself how thankful I was that I spent my money wisely and got the Eaton. There is a noticable difference that you can feel, especially around town, light to light stuff. The roots lends itself more to smooth drivability as well...You asked, I answered.

Tallboy

11-11-2004, 03:25 PM

If I can pitch in my newbie 2 cents worth?? :)

My MM was bought just 3 months ago. I wanted to supercharge it before the snow starts falling. I needed info, and was preparing for a gruelling research task of many weeks. However, guys like BillyGman, (primarily... with many other supporting members) with their informative posts saved weeks of research on my own. I'd just like to thank BillyGman and others who have answered my call for help.
This is my analogy... I was a Computer Science major in college. When people need help with computers they come to me, (even my boss... a plus!). I expect it, because I follow all the trends, new products, statistical benchmarks... you name it. I think it's smart for others to come to me for help in this field....
OK, fast forward to my new MM. Why should I not hinder the advice of someone VERY knowledgeable in the supercharging arena who knows all the angles, as I do with modern computer architecture??

Thanks BillyGman for showing me that a heavy car, (the MM) needs more low-end torque off the line for gut-wrenching muscle car performance!

I've ordered my Trilogy kit and am expecting it shortly.

As the German stewardess once addressed us on a flight back from Europe, "We are pleased you have chosen us, thank you and goodbye!"dave-your two cents are always welcome. it is people like you who come to the site, ask questions, and do thier homework who many of us are talking about and trying to help. you asked around, did some research, and made the right [in my opinion] choice. the first time you nail the gas pedal you'll realize your money was well spent.:up:

MI2QWK4U

11-11-2004, 03:33 PM

If you were running a Centrifical Blower at the track you would not have to raise your hood to cool it down. There alredy cool!:banana:

Now that's funny!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

Not really, did you miss this post about the actual temps for a roots style blower. And its always a good idea to pop the hood at the track to cool under the hood.

Post #54 (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showpost.php?p=187485&postcount=54)

--------------------------------------------------------------------------

Quote:
Originally Posted by sailsmen
The problem for me is the Roots develops 40% more heat than the centrifugal, being in the Deep South heck it was 87* & 85% last week, the centrifugal is the way to go since it only raise Air Intake Temp by 10*..

You are right the Corky Bell book is excellent, so is the Sean Hyland book.

There is a reason some Cobra owners are going to Centrifugal. The Roots model is undersized for the DOHC application.

Ok, I have to jump in on this one. You will have no issues with the heat down south. As you know I have an eaton on my Marauder. I also have a custom intercooler coolant temperature monitor, using Dakota digital guages. I am able to tell the output temperature of the coolant leaving the intercooler, which is always warmer when you are into the boost, as well as the input temperature of the coolant exiting the intercooler radiator before it enters the intercooler on the supercharger. No other Trilogy equipped Eaton Marauder can has done this mod, which basically tells me how effiecently the intercooling system is operating under load. Do you know that the Trilogy system typically runs 10 degrees warmer than the ambient outside temperature?! When we were in Norwalk, it was 90 degrees out, my intercooler water temp was only 97 degrees. At Milan last weekend the outside temp was 60 Degrees, the intercooler temp was 65 degrees. The other morning it was 40 degrees on the way to work, i couldnt get the temp above 42 degrees by getting on it on the drive in.
So lets not go there about the Roots running "soooooo" much hotter than the vortech. I am sick and tired of hearing "things" that people know, without checking with people that either know, or are more informed.

So....one time from the cheap seats....The Eatons DONT run much more than 10 degrees warmer than ambient temperature.

Billy, Mike, its pretty much a lost cause explaing things anymore. Uninformed people will believe anything with a slick sales job.
__________________

Logan

11-11-2004, 04:13 PM

Ok, I have to jump in on this one. You will have no issues with the heat down south. As you know I have an eaton on my Marauder. I also have a custom intercooler coolant temperature monitor, using Dakota digital guages. I am able to tell the output temperature of the coolant leaving the intercooler, which is always warmer when you are into the boost, as well as the input temperature of the coolant exiting the intercooler radiator before it enters the intercooler on the supercharger. No other Trilogy equipped Eaton Marauder can has done this mod, which basically tells me how effiecently the intercooling system is operating under load. Do you know that the Trilogy system typically runs 10 degrees warmer than the ambient outside temperature?! When we were in Norwalk, it was 90 degrees out, my intercooler water temp was only 97 degrees.
BULL. The hell you won't. Oil temps were a CONSTANT thorn in my butt with the 100+ heat and heavy traffic in Dallas. Solved once the oil cooler was put on.

There's more to heat "issues" than just air intake temps Dave. It doesn't help that there's no easy way for folks in the south to tune their cars properly...

MI2QWK4U

11-11-2004, 04:17 PM

I really dont care which kit you want, I cant say that enough. But I really wish that folks would understand that there are trade offs for each kit. Can we at least agree on certain facts?
1. The Trilogy setup costs more, but requires less in the way of additional mods.

2. The Vortech setup costs less, but requires more in the way of additional mods.

I am refering to Major Exhaust work, Headers, torque converters, Denzo plugs, trans cooling mods due to the high stall TC, etc.

Does this make sense to anyone? Please speak up and correct me if that is the case.

It seems to me that a frugal choice would not be the vortech, but rather the Eaton. Several members have installed their own Trilogy kit. MarauderMike here in Michigan did his kit himself in a weekend, as it stands, 6 grand for mid 12's all day long, no other mods needed.

When you add up the additional parts or mods that accentuate the Vortech setup, you are even or over the cost of the trilogy, so what are we arguing about in terms of cost then?

I have 4 major power adding mods on my car: $7700 total
1) Trilogy kit installed $6500
2) Pro-M MAF and conical filter $400
3) x pipe and magna flow mufflers $400
4) 3:73 rear end $400
These mods yielded my 12.01 1/4 mile time, and 460+ at the rear wheels.

I would challange a vortech owner to tally up what they have sunk into their cars, including supporting mods like I mentioned above, ie. TC, Headers, full exhaust, plugs, etc. lets see how things stack up since cost and money appear to be an issue. I think some might be suprised if people answer honestly...

MI2QWK4U

11-11-2004, 04:20 PM

BULL. The hell you won't. Oil temps were a CONSTANT thorn in my butt with the 100+ heat and heavy traffic in Dallas. Solved once the oil cooler was put on.

There's more to heat "issues" than just air intake temps Dave. It doesn't help that there's no easy way for folks in the south to tune their cars properly...

Logan, I was trying to point out that the intercooler is very efficient in your car and mine. I really cant address other heat issues like engine or trans oil temps. When I ran in norwalk the temps were hot and the kit kept the coolant cooler than any of us expected.

MARAUDER S/C #5

11-11-2004, 04:28 PM

How often do you lift up the hood and say to someone "look how fantastic my engine looks!"Every chance I get !

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/2240GARAGE-KING2.JPG

sailsmen

11-11-2004, 04:37 PM

Per Lidio the Trilogy car is a 13.3 to 12.9 car. You cannot reproduce your car today for that price.

The best bang for the buck whcih yeilds a 13.5 car is gears, TC, headers and chip.

MARAUDER S/C #5

11-11-2004, 04:37 PM

maraudernkc

11-11-2004, 04:38 PM

I wanted some honest answers

Yes, I have driven both types of supercharged Marauders, mine and several other roots cars around town, from mild to wild, as well as a Vortech equipped Marauder. I remember thinking to myself how thankful I was that I spent my money wisely and got the Eaton. There is a noticable difference that you can feel, especially around town, light to light stuff. The roots lends itself more to smooth drivability as well...You asked, I answered.

MI2QWK4U

11-11-2004, 04:52 PM

I wanted some honest answers

That is about it. I prefered the feel of the eaton around town, light to light sprints, and that gut wrenching paste you back in your seat launches. The vortechs seemed to run rougher, I am sorry I cant nail that down to why it was or what caused that feeling. The biggest difference was being floored from a dead stop, the Eaton launches sooo much harder, and with minor mods, doesnt fall off that much and can actually maintain across the spectrum. Maraudernkc, I am being as forthright and honest as I can. Like I said before, I dont care what SC a person goes with, just that they understand each setup and the pros and cons of them. The trilogy kit is a bolt on turn key system that will yield you big results, with a couple of relatively cheap mods you can get where I am very simply. I am more worried about lining up against a built Eaton Marauder than a vortech anyday. I swear to you, you wont believe what JUST an eaton does for our car. I was dead set against doing major work on my car while under warranty. When Lidio stopped by to show me what is now Trilogy #1 a day after the first eaton was strapped to it, I was floored, stunned and instantly jealous and had to have it. #1 just had the blower....nothing else. I think thats the one thing i am trying to impart to folks here, spend the money if you can, get the Eaton. $6000 and you are in the high 12's.

If you have any specific questions, please, dont hesitate to ask or pm me anytime.

TAF

11-11-2004, 05:32 PM

I wanted some honest answersClick on Jack......
http://www.theboxset.com/images/reviewcaptures/929capture_afewgoodmen04.jpg (http://www.amminadab.com/annex/sounds/truth.mp3)

stevengerard

11-11-2004, 05:34 PM

I have 4 major power adding mods on my car: $7700 total
1) Trilogy kit installed $6500
2) Pro-M MAF and conical filter $400
3) x pipe and magna flow mufflers $400
4) 3:73 rear end $400
These mods yielded my 12.01 1/4 mile time, and 460+ at the rear wheels.

They realy aren't that far off. Dennis' kit installed would be 6500 - 7000 for me, it includes the Pro - M MAF, I just got the gears and yes the TC, so the price will be about the same or a few hundred more. Just don't know if the car would be as fast as yours without more. I'll have to wait and see.

Its funny because I think at the heart of it we all agree on most items here. What I do want people to know is that the perceived tone of the reply's is that if you didn't buy a trilogy you didn't do your homework and didn't buy the right Supercharger. I know that's not true but that's what it sounds like.

I did try both, read, researched, spoke to folks and test drove again. I liked the vortec and bought it but completely understand why folks would choose the trilogy.

MI2QWK4U

11-11-2004, 05:44 PM

They realy aren't that far off. Dennis' kit installed would be 6500 - 7000 for me, it includes the Pro - M MAF, I just got the gears and yes the TC, so the price will be about the same or a few hundred more. Just don't know if the car would be as fast as yours without more. I'll have to wait and see.

Its funny because I think at the heart of it we all agree on most items here. What I do want people to know is that the perceived tone of the reply's is that if you didn't buy a trilogy you didn't do your homework and didn't buy the right Supercharger. I know that's not true but that's what it sounds like.

I did try both, read, researched, spoke to folks and test drove again. I liked the vortec and bought it but completely understand why folks would choose the trilogy.

Fair enough!

Paul T. Casey

11-11-2004, 06:40 PM

Wow, 10 pages of car stuff! I sure am glad the silly election thing is over. But seriously, I 've been kicking the supercharger thing around a little lately, and I think I've managed to glean some useful info here. I'm still up in the air about which way to go, or even if it's the answer for me. Someone posted "best bang for the buck, tune, T/C, headers, and gears." For this road warrior, gears are not really an option. I know, 2mpg difference, etc. but I'm doing about 35K miles a year, and it does add up. My main goal, shut up the stock Cobra guys in my 2 ton sled! I've talked PRIVATELY with a few folks here, and would like to keep it that way, and have talked with a few "hard-core" racing mechanics at work. I'm also reading various articles on the subject. I do have one question for all who may know. Have any of you "streched" your head bolts? This was recommended to me by more than one mechanic dude. If not, do the various kits come with improved head bolts? I imagine the answer is somewhere here on the board, but I'm tired and lazy today.