Just for the sake of discussion...

[Cooper]

Growing up during the late 60's and early 70's, many guys would thumb their noses at "muscle cars" with automatic transmissions. When I bought my new 1978 Camaro Z-28, one of the first things guys would check out was, "automatic or stick shift"? When they discovered it was a four speed, they always seemed more impressed with the car.

I've read that it was impossible for Ford to offer a standard transmission on the MM due to the way the car is constructed. If it HAD been possible to offer the car with a standard "four-on-the-floor" transmission, I'm curious to know if anyone would have preferred it over the automatic transmission. Why or why not?

[Billatpro]

If this were offered with a six speed, I'd be drivin it! Why? Why not?

[martyo]

What Billatpro said, and then some!!

[Logan]

I'd be a big fan of them sticking a T56 in there for sure. If memory serves, the issue was placement of the clutch pedal, something to do with the dimensions and construction of the firewall...

[Beadhead]

Nope, I'd stick with the auto trans. There were a LOT fewer vehicles on the road in the 60's and 70's. A stick is just too much of a pain in bumper to bumper, rush hour traffic. At the end of a hectic day, I don't need the added involvement of a stick on my dive home. Maybe I'm just too old for the action anymore! LOL This is the first slushbox I've ever owned.

[RF Overlord]

Stealth:

Impossible? I had an aunt that bought a '72 LTD (I've no idea where) that had a 3-on-the-tree. Supposedly it was originally owned by a Ford employee of some kind. I absolutely would have said that was impossible if I hadn't driven the car myself.

But any-who, I probably would have still purchased the MM with a juice drive. An automatic with a shift kit, or reprogrammed chip, can shift a lot faster than anyone can shift a manual. It's a lot easier to drive in the city, and on the highway the car stays in top gear most of the time anyway. With today's lock-up converters, there's no penalty in gas mileage, either.

[jgc61sr2002]

I also perfer auto trans. Have a 5 speed in my chev pick up truck. Standard shift is good on the highway as long as there is no traffic. Besides today's automatics are superior and are just about as fast. The average person can't shift that well and would be better off with automatic. John 2003 MM

[Billatpro]

While would agree with a lot of what is said about the "slickshift" there is just something about the way a solid clutch launched car feels and the ability to personally select a desired gear I just can't get over!

[RancorKeeper]

I've always prefered sticks in smaller "sports" cars and an automatic in bigger cars & trucks. Both of my Mustangs are manuals, but my Caprice & Monte Carlo are autos. I wasn't alive for the early '70s, but I think autos were more popular than manuals even back in the day. For instance, of the 142,153 Monte Carlos made in 1970, only 1,973 were ordered with a manual. That's not even 1.5% and the number plummeted in '71 & '72.

[TAF]

Oh :censor: THAT's scary!

A "hybrid" auto with "triptonic" 5 speed would be fun and the best of both worlds...

[03 Merc]

Automatic all the way...this is my daily driver and I don't need to be "rowing my own" in Atlanta traffic...

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by Beadhead
A stick is just too much of a pain in bumper to bumper, rush hour traffic.


A big juicy AMEN to that, bro.

It's a question of power-to-weight ratio and gearing. If MM owners are complaining about off-the-line oomph with a torque converter behind the engine, imagine the creative clutch slippage you'd have to endure to get the car moving satisfactorily. There's just too much weight to move, and the engine is just not beefy enough to smoothly handle a low RPM launch in such a car.
This is one gripe I have with my current '98 Honda Civic 5-sp... I found my weaker yet lighter '84 and '85 Civics to be MUCH easier to launch (even without touching the gas pedal!), but the heavier '98 takes a little more thought.

And then there's traffic... now that I drive a solid 85 mile per day with about 60% of that in stop-and-go traffic, that clutch creativity is becoming a nuisance.
The same trip in my 6-speed WS6 will get me stressed up just the same (more so, since it's heavier and I feel worse abusing it than I do the Civic).

Perhaps a newly-engineered 5-speed auto would do the trick... equip it with a hairy 1st gear for those John Force launches but have it start out in 2nd for most driving (like some Mercedes do). Make it interesting for the hard-core enthusiast by offering a select-shift option (a la Lincoln LS... one of the more fun 4-door cars I've ever driven).

[LightningVic]

I am trying to put a stickshift in my LX Sport. ITS ALL ABOUT THE STICK. I figured out that if I use the whole mustang GT pedal setup, and line it up so that the mustang brake pedal matches up with the brake booster for our cars it might work. If that doesnt work then I will try the T-bird, and then the Lincoln LS, and then worse case scenario maybe some truck pedal assemblies. I will have to reprogram the comp, and I an hoping that the shifter will come up through the auto shifter location in my console otherwise I will have to do major hacking. I am trying this out on a wrecked police interceptor I am in posession of.
I think if I were to do this I would have to convert my car over to normal pedals since my moving pedals seem like a headache to deal with. I think mustang parts specialties just used slightly modified mustang pedals to do the cobra vics, so it should work. ECM reporgram, modified crossmember, pedals/linkage, and everything should work. Anyone else that knows these cars any input is appreciated. I should point out both cars I own are pre 03 so I have the old frame.

[LincMercLover]

Hmm... did anyone forget about the CVPI's that some racing school dumped 6 speeds in, adn then demolished? It can be done...

Me, as fun as manuals are, I'd have to stick with auto in the MM. Stop go is constant around here and it's just one more thing the car would need in too short of a time (a clutch that is). I have enoph fun with my manual second gear scratches... :D

[RCSignals]

The problem is placement of the clutch pedal. There is an important brace in the way, also the computer is on the driver's side, and slightly in the way. In a mustang the computer is on the passenger side.

[jefferson-mo]

I prefer the control of a stick....If they offered it I'd be first in line.
Nothing worse than flying into a corner and lifting slightly on the gas and the thing upshifts!

Bob Bondurant was using Crown Vics with 5 speeds at his AZ driving school...from what I hear Roush bulit them for him....there used to be a photo of one at speed(I think it was on the Bondurant website)

Plus I've said it before..I think my trans is on dope:rasta:


BTW...the Aviator has the same engine we do but a 5 speed auto.......


hey Mercury engineers...are you listening?.....how 'bout that?

[lshultz]

Here in Norfolk Virginia area the daily morning and evening rush hour is a joke...there is no rush to it...I cannot imagine bumper to bumper for 20 miles each way...my leg wouldn't last long...give me a slush box anyday...the weight of the MM/CV is something I dont want to manually stroke along...maybe if Ford would come out with a manually shifted automatic like Chrysler has..hummmmm??? might be worth the effort...but for now I want to be able to get out of the car and walk without a pronounced limp...maybe being 58 has something to do with it also...leave the sticks for you young guy's...
Leon Shultz:coolman: :coolman: :coolman: :coolman:

[Macon Marauder]

I love a stick shift, but not in my daily driver. For bumper-to-bumper, rush hour traffic, auto's the only way to fly.

[Mark McQuaide]

This is also my first auto trans car after 25 years of driving. A couple years ago, I would have looked down my nose at a slushbox, but having driven the 'Rauder in traffic and on the highway I wouldn't have it any other way. Maybe it's age, but 25 years and several hundred thousand miles of clutching, plus a 90 mike daily commute has made me appreciate the auto.

[mdmarauder]

I'm with you guys, I want nothing but an auto in any car. I always argue with my brother about Ford putting an auto in the Cobra. There's nothing like a powerful car with an auto-trans. Regarding the select-shift had it on my LS and almost never used it. The car was actually much slower than when it was in auto. To me it's just a gimmick.

[Cooper]

Originally posted by jefferson-mo
I prefer the control of a stick....If they offered it I'd be first in line.
Nothing worse than flying into a corner and lifting slightly on the gas and the thing upshifts!

Bob Bondurant was using Crown Vics with 5 speeds at his AZ driving school...from what I hear Roush bulit them for him....there used to be a photo of one at speed(I think it was on the Bondurant website)

Plus I've said it before..I think my trans is on dope:rasta:


BTW...the Aviator has the same engine we do but a 5 speed auto.......


hey Mercury engineers...are you listening?.....how 'bout that?

When we visited the assembly plant in Ontario last year, the Ford people told us that they actually check out web sites like Crown Vic . Net and MercuryMarauder.net EVERY day. (We don't know that they're reading the posts, but they are.) They are EXTREMELY interested in what WE are saying about the cars they build. It gives them a better sense of what the public thinks about and wants in their cars. So, to answer your question, YES... the Mercury engineers ARE listening.

There are some great responses on this thread. Personally, I guess I'd probably go with the automatic version of the MM even if there was a standard transmission available. Pushing down on the clutch pedal over and over again during rush hour traffic gets tiring pretty fast!

Thanks to everyone for your responses. :D

[LincMercLover]

That was an assembly plant telling you they check the forums, that's not Mercury Headquarters where the design and engineer team's are actually at. THOSE are the people that need to be reading.

[jefferson-mo]

Yeah LML but the assembly plant workers are the ones not removing the "subwoofer plug" as I call it(the rubber cutout that isn't in most of our cars):(


I swear I must be the luckiest guy in the whole country:cool4:


I live in SoCal--the traffic capitol of the world(not anymore from what I gather) and both my girlfriend and I live and work in such a situation that we both have SUPER easy commutes.....normal hours mind you(7-4 for me 7:30-4:30 for her) and niether of us have traffic on our way(it all seems to be going the other way):uzi:

7-8 minutes for me all freeway:bandit:
20 minutes for her mostly freeway:rolleyes:


So that's why I still would stick with the stick:banana2:

[looking97233]

How about a hydrolic cluthch? Might help with placement.

[Cooper]

Originally posted by LincMercLover
That was an assembly plant telling you they check the forums, that's not Mercury Headquarters where the design and engineer team's are actually at. THOSE are the people that need to be reading.

True LML, but I have to believe that the people in "upper management" in BOTH divisions of the compny are sharing information with each other in an effort to make the car as "marketable" to the public as they possibly can.

[SSMOKEM]

60+ Impala guys changed over to the T56, and they love it. Not too great for over 500hp, though.

[LincMercLover]

At this point in time, it's all about $$$ until we come out of the recession...

[jefferson-mo]

Bling Bling baby:pimp:

[tomd]

Way to much stop and go driving in Chicagoland. :coolman: :nono:

[Bigdogjim]

Some time I feel like I am in a time warp when I read these post. No flame intended to any one but when I started to drive dad said we had to learn the stick. When I drove tour bus the owners would not spring for the auto so we had to shift (yes just like the trucks had to double clutch) and that the way it was. If I had a option I would have got a stick. Remember the car is through back to the '60? My '70 X-100 had a stick. I feel for the ones that are stuck in traffic. Been there done that. 3 miles to work at off peak time. Got to love it! :rock:
Big Dog :banana: :banana2:

[jefferson-mo]

Right on Bigdog:up:...........I got a 7 mile commute--not off peak but off direction--whatever that means) I was thinking this morning it should be longer so I can at least get through 2 or 3 songs

gotta count my blessings where I can though:D

[SergntMac]

Speaking of songs...Boy, a custom mix of Marauder music would be just the thing right about now...

[russ in VA]

I DREAM of having a stick shift in the MM! The lack of control I feel (and boredom) driving an automatic is the one thing that makes me wonder how long I will keep this car. A 6 speed with a one to one 5th and a long overdrive in 6th (unlike the useless gears chevy uses for it's 6 speeds) would be awesome! I don't care if it makes the car any faster (or slower), I just want to row-my-own!

[WolfeBros]

Sarge...songs would be great only if they were done with.....
moderation....ahem ;)

[bozobill]

russ: count me in ! my '97 C5 was a 6 speed and after installing the cat-back Corsa Indy Pace Car Edition, I found an on-ramp into I-80 and ran full throttle to redline thru 2nd, 3rd and 4th and then downshifted back thru each gear letting engine drag pop and purr those mufflers. jeez what a SWEET sound... and you can't get it from a slush box.

[martyo]

Commute, who worries about a commmute?? That's what the train is for!! "The" Car is for fun. I sure would have opted for a stick. Shifting to some good tunes has always been a pleasure....Anyone know where we could get a mix of good music around here ?? (heavy on the RnR please!!).

[Scott]

Guess what boys and girls..................... I love the lady as she is.

And to tell you the truth............shifting takes time from thinking

[JAL]

It's funny you mention the whole stick thing. My Impala is Auto, which is fine by me, I would like a T56 though. But here's an interesting thing...

My '99 Peterbilt is stick, 10 speed basically. I only really use the clutch out of second gear or first and in reverse. Unless I'm loaded going uphill, I may use it here and there. Still it's a lot of movement of the arm.

Our newest trucks, 2002s' are what Peterbilt calls an "Autostick." It's a 10 speed tranny that has a clutch but is auto. You use the clutch out of first, second or reverse. After that it's auto. Now if you were blind in that truck riding with me, you'd think it was a stick. It sounds and shifts like a stick! You can manually shift it with the touch of a button too.

I personally don't like it, I think it takes too long to shift and it wants to downshift every gear. Whereas in my stick, I roll up to lights in 8th gear. Plus, it shifts up at 1600 RPM everytime, if you're slipping on wet pavement, it still wants to shift. I like choosing my gear in the truck. I feel more in control.

But at the end of the day going home in my car I find myself starting my Impala with my left foot "in." I enjoy the auto drive home.

Jeff

[BISHOPSS95]

Auto stick is NOT a stick shift.

Has anyone checked out the T56 conversion for the ImpalaSS to see if it would convert to the MM?

BTW if you have to think about the question (auto or stick). You beling in an auto.

:cool:

[cyclone03]

I have to go with a stick in my marauder.
T56 would be a great match.

[LightningVic]

The Impala conversion will not bolt up, but a similar principle could be used. The clutch pedal might even be usable, but the problem is that we have those damn moving pedals. At least I do, and I dont know how that will affect the conversion. Our crossmember will have to be modified or else a custom one fabricated, but I imagine every other component could come out of a mustang cobra. Driveshaft issues, but it would also be the perfect time to get a custom length metal matrix driveshaft from Dennis. Comp would have to be reprogrammed too. I am looking into adapting either the entire mustang pedal assembly, or the entire T-bird assembly, I will be taking measurements this weekend.

[TripleTransAm]

Originally posted by cyclone03
I have to go with a stick in my marauder.
T56 would be a great match.


All this talk of the T-56...
Is everyone aware that the first gear is a really tall (for a manual) 2.6x ratio? Couple this with no torque converter to help 'oomph' off the line, and 3.55 gears out back, and the reality that the stock 4.6l DOHC is a *little* soft at low RPMs.

As it is, it's fairly well known that stock-for-stock, F-body LS1s give up a little low end torque to the older LT1s and many people with M6 F-bodies upgrade to 4.10s in the diff just to deal with the lack of low low low end oomph. I get the feeling based on some auto/3.23 LS1s I've driven in, that the 4.6l DOHC is behind on sub 2000 RPM torque when comparing. So with all this in consideration, I think 4.10s would be a *mandatory* mod required when considering a T56 (unless there's an alternative 1st gear ratio available now).

[SergntMac]

Originally posted by RancorKeeper
I've always prefered sticks in smaller "sports" cars and an automatic in bigger cars & trucks. Both of my Mustangs are manuals, but my Caprice & Monte Carlo are autos. I wasn't alive for the early '70s, but I think autos were more popular than manuals even back in the day. For instance, of the 142,153 Monte Carlos made in 1970, only 1,973 were ordered with a manual. That's not even 1.5% and the number plummeted in '71 & '72.

More fun with stats, and how they can be misleading.

1970 was the first year of production for the Monte Carlo, base car was a 350/275, TH350, 3:23, buckets, console and so on, what we back then, would like to see our girlfriends and wives tool around in, or tow us with on race day. I'd say the sales figures mentioned here seem on target, but the 1973 shifters were most likely the SS, with a 454/385 (base) M-22 rock crusher and 3:73 posi right out of the box. Truthful, but not a fair look back.

Rank, if you can find the numbers somewhere, take a peek the Impalas or Chevelles, 1965 through 1970? Both came with 4 speeds that did not require the SS package also. Would be a better picture to look at.

I remember hearing that LM did consider the manual trans, but predicted less that 1.5% interest.

[JAL]

Originally posted by BISHOPSS95
Auto stick is NOT a stick shift.


I never said it was stick. It says auto. It has a clutch though. Re-read my post.

Jeff

[BISHOPSS95]

Yes Jeff the clutch is found in your truck. I understand now what you were saying.

I guess what I was realy flaming was the tiptronic. The best of no worlds.

[LincMercLover]

LOL, I know I'm off-topic here, but ever notice all the SS guys come in at once? What'd your guys site go down again? :D LOL, just playin' with ya guys!

[BISHOPSS95]

Friday afternoon and a slow day at work. Boss in in a meeting and I ran out of CD's. I lost all my bookmarks and can't spell "impallassforum". The mouse made me do it. I had a flat tire. The earth is spinning. I got banned from CVN.

:help:

[LincMercLover]

Hittin' it early ehh?

:beer:

[SSMOKEM]

I'm just taking a rest from our own internal flame war between the East coast guys and the West coast guys on the subject of ETs.......:D

[jefferson-mo]

USE THE FORCE LUKE:uzi:

[WolfeBros]

Yeah.....cross over to the dark side......oppps.....your already there I see
:lol:

[LincMercLover]

Maybe we scare them away with umm... stuff like that^ and they return every so often to see if we've gotten it outta our system yet...

Anyway, on with trannies ehh? :D

[JAL]

Well, I usally hit up the Lowrider forum first, then here, then the Impala site. Weird huh?

Jeff

[SergntMac]

Trannys...OMG, not here too!

Freaking cross dressers are e v e r y w h e r e today!

[RancorKeeper]

Originally posted by SergntMac
1970 was the first year of production for the Monte Carlo, base car was a 350/275, TH350, 3:23, buckets, console and so on, what we back then, would like to see our girlfriends and wives tool around in, or tow us with on race day. I'd say the sales figures mentioned here seem on target, but the 1973 shifters were most likely the SS, with a 454/385 (base) M-22 rock crusher and 3:73 posi right out of the box. Truthful, but not a fair look back.
The base model 350/2bbl could be ordered with a 3 speed & the other engine options (350/4bbl, 400, 402, 454) could be had with a 4 speed, Powerglide or Turbo Hydramatic (350 or 400, depending on whether it was a sb or bb). That's why I used the 1st Gen Monte as an example (aside from the fact that I have lots of info on it), it was a popular car across the board, but very few people ordered it with a manula. From 1970-1972, 449,653 cars were made, of which 2,944 were stickshifts. Thats only .65% of the three year total! My point was even back then, the general public wasn't very interested in sticks. Also, it's quite rare to find a 4 speed in a '70 or '71 454 SS - I've only seen one - so even the "enthusiasts" weren't predominantly optioning the manual trannies.



Originally posted by SergntMac
Rank, if you can find the numbers somewhere, take a peek the Impalas or Chevelles, 1965 through 1970? Both came with 4 speeds that did not require the SS package also. Would be a better picture to look at.
Again, the MC SS package wasn't required for a manual, but you make a good point. The Impala might be a better cross section of buyers during the mid-late 60's and the Chevelle was definitly a "gearhead" car, so it would better represent what those guys prefered to buy. I'll try & find some production info in my books/mags and kick around www.chevelles.com -great site.

Just an FYI, the Monte wasn't offered as an SS after 1971 until 1983 and the big blocks (402 LS3 & 454 LS5) weren't available after 1972 and I believe only a 3 speed Muncie was available in '72.