Dyno question for the S/Ced guys:

[BillyGman]

I know what you're thinking....."Another Supercharger war".....but no no, this has absolutely nothing to do with which type of S/Cer you have. It just has to do with what you demanded of the guy running the Dyno when you had your car dyno TESTED. I never had my car Dyno TUNED, but I did have it Dyno tested. The test came back at 400RWHP (SAE corrected). But I was just looking at the Dyno sheet, and something just dawned on me.....

The guy only tested my car up to 6,000 RPM. And I know that with the chip that was included w/my S/Cer, the rev limiter is set to 6600 RPM's. And I know there's plenty of power up there, because even when I do a burnout, the engine just skyrockets right up to 6,600 RPM's in both first and second gears. Infact, a couple times it went right to 7,000 before the rev limiter got ahold of it. And according to the dyno sheets I have, the engine's HP was still climbing when the test was stopped at 6,000 RPM's.

So my question is......did you guys who have supercharged Marauders have your cars Dynoed at a higher RPM than 6,000 ? I'm thinking about having it tested again, but this time up to 6,600 RPM's. What do you guys think? And you Nitrous Oxided Marauder guys.......what about you? What RPM did you get to on the Dyno?

[SergntMac]

I've got a lot of dyno time racked up, and I've seen it happen half a dozen ways, Billy. My regular dyno guy will ask for a redline and dial it in. The dyno will shut of at that redline, or, it can be controlled manually with the hand held "brake on" switch.

In some cases, the dyno owners don't allow anything over 6000 RPM, because they don't want your engine oil all over their shop floor.

In some cases, one may argue that there isn't any power over 6K, why push your luck. My first N/A MM didn't produce much HP/TQ over 6K and my ideal shift points were set for 5800 RPM. However my second S/C MM makes quite a bit of power up to 6200 RPM, so, it's a bit of "every MM is different" too.

I recall when your got your first dyno test, and that shop was clueless. I know you like your second dyno test much better, but I still feel you're not getting the whole story. Moreover, you car is going to change over time, why not do it again and see what's improved?

I know you're happy with Lidio's base tune for the kit, but that was then and this is now. I'd really like to see you plan a trip to Lidio and dial that puppy in. I'm sure it would be worth it. Check with Haggis too, seems he's found a real sharp wrench in his neighborhood, and I think that would be closer to home ground?

[Smokie]

I'm aware you asked the question of the S/C guys...I am not. I recently had a dyno-tune and my car was taken to 6400 rpm's. My results showed that the car made power between 6000 and 6200 rpm's, at 6200 a gradual decrease can be observed to 6400.

I have two different philosophies or tunes stored in my tuner, the Reinhart flash shifted at 5800 1-2 and 5900 2-3 served me well for my power level.

Aric's dyno-tune I believe took advantage of the better exhaust; my current 1-2 is at 5900 and the 2-3 is set at redline which I estimate at 6200. My opinion is that the engine can handle the 6400 rpm's; I have been warned by a friend on this forum who is also LM wrench and who's opinion I value greatly, that the possible problem with revving past 6000 is more likely to come from the C- clip in the transmission than any other source,

I have no doubt your engine can make power above 6k...have you done anything to beef-up your tranny ? :)

[MikesMerc]

My standard dyno run is 2000 to 6500...period. If that isn't what is set up, I ask for it. Most shops don't want to start the pull until 3000 or higher, but i insist on a 2000 start of the pull on the MM due to the gobs of low end torque down there with a roots blower. As far as top end, I like to see the spot where things begin to nose over. That's why I insist on 6500.

[BillyGman]

Thanks for the responses so far........... MAC, you're the second person who has urged me to get a custom dyno tune, and I understand your point. I have two uppermost things in my mind concerning that........


I wholeheartedly believe that since supercharging is nothing to fool around with nor experiment with when it comes to air/fuel ratios, and especially ignition timing curves, then I firmly believe that whenever you purchase a complete Supercharger kit for a car that has low production #'s like the Marauder does, then the only engine tuner who should be trusted to custom dyno tune your supercharged engine is the one who burned the chip and set the tuning that the Supercharger kit in question came with in the first place. That's why I think that I should only go to Lidio, and all Trilogy S/Cer owners should only go to Lidio, since Lidio burns all the chips for the Trilogy kits.

he is the guy who knows Marauders the best, which is especially important for a Supercharged Marauder engine. And because of that, and the fact that Lidio has been tuning S/Ced 4.6L engines in Mustangs also ever since that engine came out in the 90's, then Lidio would be the only one I'd go to for any custom tuning now that my Marauder is S/Ced. Which brings me to the next point of WHY? Why would I want that? Yes, I can obtain more power from a custom dyno tune, but how much more power? My guess is perhaps an additional 20 RWHP at best, over and above what I've already obtained from the Trilogy S/Cer with Lidio's chip which came with the Trilogy kit in the first place. So an extra 20 RWHP would only knock off about 2 tenths of a second from my quartermile ET. So driving 10 hours one way just to gain another 20 HP isn't worth it to me. And NOBODY else is gonna touch the tuning on my Marauder but Lidio. If you read Lidio's "Tuning Phylosophy" article that the link below will take you to, then I think you'll undersatand the reason for my feelings on these things. Infact the main point mentioned in the following article is just one of the three main reasons why I chose the Trilogy S/Cer for my Marauder in the first place, since I was well aware that it's Lidio who does all the tuning for Trilogy, and who burns their S/Cer kit chips....


http://www.alternativeauto.com/tuning/tuning_philosophy.html

[SergntMac]

My standard dyno run is 2000 to 6500...period. If that isn't what is set up, I ask for it. Most shops don't want to start the pull until 3000 or higher, but i insist on a 2000 start of the pull on the MM due to the gobs of low end torque down there with a roots blower. As far as top end, I like to see the spot where things begin to nose over. That's why I insist on 6500.
Agreed. Very often the MM is hard to keep in gear that low in the RPMs, and dyno operators get frustrated when it's a dyno day and customers are stacked. But, the dyno is a test tool, not a video game, some will just have to be patient.

A lot depends on what you want to see in the dyno report too. Some folks get a dyno test just to shoot for their documented personal RWHP/RWTQ best. I've seen them skip through the shop like kids that just sat on Santa's lap, with the graph in their hands yelling "look! Look!" Others are a bit more wise, and want to see RWHP/RWTQ at particular stages of the pull. These guys know what a dyno test does.

I've sampled a lot of "different" philosophies on this, including pulls that start from a dead stop and absorb the "peaks" from shifts into the SAE adjusted numbers. You won't like the graph, or, the final numbers, but you are taking an honest look at your powerband, print out the row/column report for the real details. If you follow the crowd with the customary practice of a third gear pull, you're missing out on a lot of important 411 just before and just after gear shifts. In the end, it all depends on what you're looking for, hopefully others here will read all of this, and learn that you do have a choice.

Which brings me to the next point of WHY? Why would I want that? Yes, I can obtain more power from a custom dyno tune, but how much more power? My guess is perhaps an additional 20 RWHP at best, over and above what I've already obtained from the Trilogy S/Cer with Lidio's chip which came with the Trilogy kit in the first place. So an extra 20 RWHP would only knock off about 2 tenths of a second from my quartermile ET. So driving 10 hours one way just to gain another 20 HP isn't worth it to me. And NOBODY else is gonna touch the tuning on my Marauder but Lidio.
Agreed. A ten hour drive for a tune up seems out of financial line, but if you can hook it up with other MM.Net activities, why not?

I don't always expect more power from a dyno tune, though that is often the end result when folks get their first dyno tune. I've run dyno days here in Chicago where MM owners drove away with 40 RWHP more than they came with, and some with less than 15. It depends on the mods, and the previous tune.

My concern is with getting the best tune, one that produces the best possible results, with respect for the safety margins and limitations inherrent to our MM engine. Lidio is indeed a very responsible tuner and I enjoy his perspective on it all. However, our engines mature as time passes, and I would suggest that everyone look at their tune at least once a year. This is why we worked hard at having dyno tuning available at MV-II, some were first-timers, others were check-ups. If you look at it as a mod all by itself, a dyno tune has high bang for the buck, and that means missing out on the other bang, the one from inside your engine.

I've had dyno tunes that cranked out 455 RWHP from my MM, but those tunes also left me on the ragged edge of safety, and I backed off. Ironically, my best tune to date produced much lower dyno numbers than I wanted to see, but it's a tune that's more realistic in my day to day driving on the quality of gasoline I have to deal with. Am I concerned about the final numbers? Not at all. But, I'm going through my engine right now and see it all as more like fine china. Sturdy, durable and impressive when treated right. Very fragile when abused.

A good dyno tune from a responsible tuner will deliver your best performance within the limitations of the machine under the hood. Moreover, I've seen countless races where the "lower dyno numbers" won, it's not always the RW stuff that takes the prize.

Dyno tests also serve us to decide if a particular mod is worth the money of not and even then, it can be tricky. As long as it stays honest, we win. When any vendor here claims that his product will produce X power, I'm going to want to see that 411 verified by an independent source, hopefully one of us NOT getting a freebie from the vendor, and I'm not making accusations when I say that.

I've bought a lot of mods from DR, and each mods got tested and given a fair shake at producing his promises. I also know that he's tried several mods that didn't cut the bang for the buck margin, and he won't sell them without a firm discussion about what will not happen. This is good and I trust the man and his word. But, I still test everything myself, if for no other reason than to prove to myself.

Dyno test or dyno tune, put one on your list. You can never know too much about your MM.

[Zack]

Billy, If you fax your dyno sheet with the A/F chart to Lidio, he can make an air fuel correction from the data on the sheet. I dont know if he actually does this, but Ive had it done to my car through Dennis when Jerry W. was still in the tuning business. This is a lot easier than driving 10 hours.

[Lidio]

Hey guys

I tend to stay away from real elaborate tunes or retunes that happen over the phone. But on occasion I will make adjustments because there are times that I cant duplicate some thing or simply haven seen it all.

The tune that is supplied with the Trilogy’s that I devolved has been working all over the country very good so far. I tend to only have to make a couple of minor tweaks to the A/F ratio on some of the kits that have gone to people in various parts of the country that might have some thing like a complete hi-flo exhaust/long tubes on top of a Trilogy install.

But their have also been some Trilogy customer that have asked me to make A/F changes to their MM’s with Trilogy’s via mail order because they or their local tuner/dyno guy thinks that the supplied A/F might be wrong. What I’ve seen is that most chassis dyno guys through out the country use a tail pipe style O2 sensor. Contrary to what some will say, this is not a very accurate way of testing A/F. Especially when its blowing through a couple of catalytic converters and the remaining full exhaust system. The wide band we use is very accurate and is installed in a O2 bung in front of all the cats as close to the exhaust manifold or header as possible. Most don’t do this because its more involved and time consuming.

We’ve had countless people leave our facility and for some reason or another end up at other tuner shops for either a dyno-day or what ever, and shortly after come back to us questioning our tune claiming that its very lean at WOT especially at the beginning of the pull. The first thing I say is disregard that A/F if it’s a tail pipe style sensor, and if it makes them feel better we’ll recheck it real quick by either making a blast on the street or re-dyno the car. And every time its where we left it depending on the application.

When we dyno a MM with a blower I make all pulls to about 6500 rpm’s. Our MM tunes raise the limiter to about 6600rpm with or with out a blower. All Trilogy equipped MM’s and the few Centrifugals we’ve seen, pull to every bit of 6300+ RPM’s.

And one more thing I do to. Starting earlier this summer when ever I make a dyno pull with a MM that’s equipped with a Trilogy I actually burn a special “dyno only” trans shifting tune that makes the trans shift into 3rd gear very early and not down shift out of 3rd once its past about 35mph. And I also program it to lock the torque converter at about 38mph in 3rd. This makes for a very realalistik looking RWHP number and it shows just how hard and early a MM equipped with a Trilogy starts to come on. Typically an automatic equipped car on a chassis dyno will show a high initial torque reading and then the torque plunges down ward the rest of the pull. The way I do it now will make a torque and horsepower curve that looks just like a stick shift car.
Even though the converter is locked though and the fluid coupling loss of power/efficiency is gone, the automatics still make a little less at the rear wheels then a similar stick car because of the rotating weight of the internals of the automatic trans and the weight of the torque converter when filled with fluid.

On a different note….. In the next day or so I will post results and PIC’s of our first install of the new K&N Filter charger kit designed just of the MM’s. We are testing it on a MM with nothing done to it except a stock 9.5psi Trilogy set-up. We did the install on this car about four months ago and its now back for a few tweaks. Before we do any thing else to the car I’m going to strap it to the dyno and re-base line the car and install the K&N kit while the car is still on the dyno. This new K&N part looks very good, my prediction is about 12-15RWHP on a MM that is equipped with a 9.5psi Trilogy kit. And of course it may be worth more HP with other mods and greater boost.

I’ll update ASAP.


Thanks

[Bradley G]

Hey Lidio!

Thanks for the 411 good stuff!

If it's not too much trouble could we have a peek at the tricks you are doing to Trilogy #1:o
Thanks in advance Bradley G

[BillyGman]

MAC, Zack, and Lidio, thankyou all for your replies.