Internals 101...What's under your Mm hood?

[SergntMac]

I know I'm not the first owner to poke around under his MM hood, but I am the first to poke with some choice in the matter and to return here with some pics of what we really own under our hood. Every time I read of real major issues here, I pray for an autopsy. Not always possible, and I know why, so, I hope this is a refreshing change. At least I'm not fighting with factory reps over the right and wrong of it all.

The 4.6L DOHC design has been around for about 10 years now, each versions produced for a specific application, and each with it's own performance expectation. It's our turn, our "InTech 4V" is shared with the Mach I and Aviator, and all three were new models for 2003. I don't believe this engine was used prior to 2003 models, and the Marauder was to first to drive on it in the street. I see no plans for FMC to use this engine in the future, so, it's all rather mysterious to me. Y'all mention Cobra around here like it's cheese and crackers and we should know what's up. But, we don't, because there isn't one Cobra engine, but many of them and folks argue about what came with what,so, I just thought it would be fun to peek at what we got in the MM. Hope y'all enjoy.

I'm not going to say a lot about what's going or with or into my MM, simply because my plan is not that remarkable. This isn't a major exploration into new territory, or, a major undertaking. Actually, it's been quite simple and very cost effective to this point. I'm doing this on a budget, and to see where improvement is possible, and for how much. I expect the end result to be a "script" y'all can carry into your local race shop, and duplicate for about the same bucks.

The budget is 5K, including all labor, gaskets, fluids and tuning. Turnkey, because I'm not a wrench and I don't have the room in my garage to try this at home. Surely, if you do, you can save a lot of wrench bucks. When I'm done, I hope to have a stronger engine, with a tad more "elbow room" for tuning and performance. If I see any gains at all, I expect them to be modest and most likely resulting from better tuning possibilities.

My rationale is not only to build a stronger MM engine, I'm also very curious about "normal" wear and tear on our stock engine as we own it today. As y'all know, my MM is the Kenny Brown #1x, the first Marauder ever to be supercharged. It was beaten hard in testing and development, and I've not been much kinder in ownership. I have ripped apart my tranny and my rear end, so, IMHO, my engine is next.

Actual mileage doesn't mean much here, my style of driving probably doubles that anyway. Moreover, it's been an experimental car from day one, and lots of people have driven it while trying to drive it into the ground, and make it break. If there's a title among us for oldest and most beat, I own it. If my MM was an NFL quaterback, she would be a cripple by now.

While it's a general rule of thumb among us that supercharging and NOS shortens life expectancy of the stock engine, I'm hoping to come away with 411 not so specifically vague about that longevity. Doing an in-depth "physical" of what's happening under my hood today and right now, intrigues me.

The short story is that I am tearing my bone stock OEM engine down, and measuring everything spec-wise for wear. Then, I am replacing my pistons, rods and crankshaft and other minor stuff with aftermarket parts from Ford Racing, JE pistons, Eagle rods, ARP fastners, Cometic gaskets, Clevite bearings, and so on.

My chief designer on this project is...Me, deciding with guidance and advice from Randy Crowley, owner of PER racing ( www.per-race-engines.com ) and my good friend Zack McGrath. I control the budget. Randy controls the specs and the build up. Zack controls ragging on us both for being chicken-snits about some stuff, but in the end, it all works. We don't always agree on stuff, nonetheless, these are my decisions for my MM, please keep your comments on the creative side of the thin line among us here. I do not want to see this thread closed prematurely, it's just too important for the average MM owner, if there is such a thing.

PER was my choice because of their achievement in local NMRA and NHRA racing. Randy Crowley is a local superwrench who knows his stuff, and PER has a lot of local Mustangs that do not use front tires to launch. Yes, there are better race shops, but they are more expensive, less flexible, and I don't want this to get financially out of hand. This is a conservative build intended to stay within a budget that any of y'all who can financially consider a supercharger kit, can consider among yourselves.

This is a work in progress, it's happening right now and I expect to produce some early test numbers within the next two weeks. The pics I have collected so far are few, but I'm collecting more. I just wanted to share some of the 411 here on behalf of those among us who haven't seen this stuff before. Y'all "seasoned vets" and "professional wrenches" are welcome to comment, but my narrative is geared for us less informed. No one learns anything when you get into the overly-techy details, not everyone knows all the lingo, or, the specs. I know I don't, so, please keep this in mind when pitching your pennies. On to part II...

[SergntMac]

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392MAINS.JPG
This is one pic of the MM block, there's more my gallery. That's all alumininum folks, with cast iron main girdles (the darker metals) They are six bolt mains, four bolts across that bolt up and into the block, and one more bolt from each side of the block across the main girdle you cannot see in this pic. The new build will have ARP fastners all around.

The modular 4.6 is roughly ten years old now, and there's been a few design changes in that time. But, according to Randy, today there's just one 4.6L production design, and you choose between aluminum, or, cast iron. Pick one, the only difference between them, is about 65 pounds. This is why it's called modular, eh?

My block came out clean, and it's well within OEM specs and wearing very nicely, which is to say wearing very little. Randy says it's got about 300K left in it, if I don't go crazy with the boost. I'm kind of proud of the clean too, changing oil ever 2K may seem wasteful to some of y'all, but when you see a clean block like this, and it earns a compliment from a full time engine builder like Randy, it leaves me feeling pretty good about my housekeeping decisions.

Before Randy is done, this block will be Thermo-cleaned, Magnafluxed for cracks, line and bore honed with torque plates, decked and equalized on a Rotter CNC machine, and a few other spec-checks I can't recall right now. The "clean-up bore" will be under .10. I thought about painting it too, but clean will suffice. Other major parts under the hood have already been blinged out, no one really sees the block anyway.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392HEADS1.JPG
MM DOHC heads, bare, thermocleaned, magnafluxed, and ready for a performance valve job. My block should look like this tomorrow afternoon. No wild grinds, or, porting here, just some "professional attention" to the OEM stuff for a more perfect fit. Tailored? Randy says the valve springs appear a bit tired, replacements are being discussed.

In this pic, what's up on top faces the front of the car, and it looks pretty much like the bottom (back) you cannot see. What you see on top as two silver dollar sized discs are freeze plugs. On the bottom (back of the head) is where these freeze plugs have been removed for the DR head cooling kit. I wish I could have taken "before" pics to see what #7 and #8 looked like before cleaning, but the build moves along without me. Again, ARP fastners, and Cometic gaskets will be used.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392SNOUT.JPG
OEM cast crank, close up of the crank snout.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392CRANK2.JPG
OEM cast crank, close up of counterbalance lobe

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392OILPUMP.JPG
OEM oil pump and pick-up tube

The OEM crank is cast iron, with an eight-bolt connection to the tranny flex plate. The oil pump is aluminum with powdered metal gears that turn inside of each other, causing it to act like a pump as it rides on the crank snout. For years now, oil pump gears were considered a soft spot and a prime cause of 4.6L engine failure. Lot's of aftermarket parts companies expounded on this, and they have done well with the subsequent panic sales. In Randy's opinion, freshly cleared with resources including Roush, the oil pump gears are really a victim of weak or malformed snouts and unbalanced crank shafts, not weak gears.

It's confusing still, because once the gears give way, they are crushed into their former state, metalic sand, and it's hard to tell what failed. Powder, to metal, to powder, and most people just blame the pump. Billet gears are 300 bucks and offer no protection from a malformed snout or unbalanced crank shaft, so, I've decided to retain the OEM gears, and pay better attention to the fit and finish of my new FRP steel forged crank shaft. A full FRP pump upgrade is also being considered, dependent on the results of Randy's FRP crank prep. Oh...That stuff you see in the oil pump intake screen? We pulled that junk out and it's gasket stuff, prolly fell from other parts stacked on the table.

The crankshaft will be the steel forged piece from Ford Racing, rebalanced and speced out by Randy to within .01 gram. Y'all see that hole drilled into the crank lobe next to the #43? This crank has been balanced to within .43 grams. Okay in most applications, but snuffing up on the specs here will save the oil pump from abuse and potential failure. BTW, the crank wasn't cleaned, that's what came out of the car, and it looks pretty good spec-wise, very little wear, maybe another 300K mileage part. Oh, it's for sale too, should any of y'all want to make a table lamp out of it.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392MM-COBRA.JPG
The piston in Randy's right hand is my #7. The piston in his left hand is from a '99 Cobra. Do they look alike to you? Good. Both are made of that Hypertuetonwhatever stuff, and both are scratched up because Randy and I have been trying to scrape off the build up of carbon that accumulates here. Please notice that the Cobra's piston top (above the first ring) is almost twice the thickness of the MM's piston top, which means it can endure more detonation, and endure it much better. My JE pistons will surpass the Cobra's specs. You can also see that the Cobra piston is connected to a powdered metal "cracked" rod, but there's more rods and stuff that will come later, K?

There's something else to see here too, and that is a 3cc dish to the MM piston. It's faintly visible here, a smaller circle around the top of the piston, and I'm working on some better piston pics I'll post later. Until then, that 3cc dish in the MM piston means that the MM's compression ratio is lower than the Cobra's, but not by much. If the '99 Cobra is really a 10.1:1 piston, the MM is probably a 9.9:1. Considering that we can carbon-up that 3cc dish and lose it, is something to think about. Carbon leaves a hard crusty surface that can be sc***** away or dissolved with brake cleaner, but my point is, is that it accumulates and that's not good.

Zack and I are known to say things here like "beat on your MM, it's good" and I'm sure some of you are wondering WTF? Here's my two cents...We have a high compression engine that requires premium gas to function properly. Maybe it's bad gas, maybe your MM isn't tuned just right, that's not important right now. What is important, is that hard carbon deposits can accumulate on the top of the piston, and the end effect is a higher compression ratio that requires even higher octane, and results in a loss of piston top/valve clearance, once it all collects over time. Over the long term, quite of bit of carbon can accumulate, and the first time you get into a rare WOT, things start banging against each other, and eventually something breaks. Piston skirts come off, a rod snaps, or, at the very least, the crank shaft is thrown out of centrifugal balance, causing the other end of the crank (the snout), to be likewise thrown off. Not good stuff, eh?

It's the beginning of fatal engine failure and it follows not having a good tune on your engine, and/or not driving the car hard enough to burn off the carbon. More on this later, when I can post some before and after pics of my pistons. Until then, it seems more a natural sidebar to our high compression engine, than a defect, or, shortcoming in design. I may have an easy inspection routine, and a maintence program to counteract this, but that's down the road too.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392CAMS1.JPG
Cams, close up, intake and exhaust side by side, passenger side, more pics in my gallery. I'm trying to show in this pic, what Randy says is almost perfect wear and tear, and he's not going to touch them. The visible wear is normal, expected, and ideal. In the other pics, you'll see a cam sproket with holes in it, and a cam sproket without holes. One is the "crank trigger," and I'm having brain fart about all that right now...Later, eh?

Well...That's about it for now, but I think it's been quite enough too. Once again, this is a work in progress, and what's posted here is subject to change as progress continues. Just wanted to share this episode of "Internals 101," all it's all the 411 I have so far. Hope y'all find it interesting.

[Bigdogjim]

Great post Mac: I know all too well the value of regular oil change.

I will follow your progress.

Thanks for thinking of "us"

I'll get around to e-mailing you a question or two.

[BUCKWHEAT]

I read an article on the 4.6 4 valve that had degreed the stock cams at tear down & found some variances from the factory, up to 7 degrees off. They took care in the rebuild to be sure the cams were dead on. I think its a build thing.

[merc406]

Saw the pictures yesterday and hoped that you'd tell what was going on with your build, thanks for sharing, I love a good engine build. :beer:

[Blue03]

A great post, Mac. Thanks for taking the time to put it together for us all!!

[Bradley G]

Hey Mac, Thanks for thinking of the general publicI enjoyed non techie talk as you put it!Carbon build-up ....I try and avoid this at all costs:burnout:
Bradley G

[JohnE]

Nice. Very clean engine.


Only comment to add is related to oil pump gears. Detonation travels down right down the crank shaft. And it can re-powder those gears for you. Like you meantion, one tank of bad gas discovered under boost could cause you to change 4 fast & sticky tires into 2 slow shoes. And once you have forged internals, chances are you'll push the power envelope harder, increasing the chance of pre-ignition.

I wondered if billet gears were worth it too. Asked JerryW and he told me to not leave home w/o them. That was enough said for me. Still, they're rather expensive for something so small and not diamond...


Looking forward to the rest of your build.

Good Luck,

John

[bigslim]

Mac, I know that I had a 2000 Continental with a 32 valve Intech engine. I also know that the Mark VIII shared this engine. Wasn't this the first applications of the "Intech" engine? The one in the Continental was rated at 275hp and the one in Mark was rated at 280-290hp. What is so different with these engines and the ones in our MMs? Thank you in advance for the answer.

[CRUZTAKER]

Very educational for me Mac.

Thanks for the great tutorial. :up:

[bigslim]

Mac, one more question. I noticed that you stated that you were replacing the pistons, rods and crankshaft. You said with these changes you should be able to add more power. Aren't you worried with the added power that the aluminum block won't get hurt. I always thought that one of the reasons 500hp was pretty much the cut off was because of our blocks. Do you think that you should change to a cast block? I am trying to learn more. Thank you.

[teamrope]

Thanks for the informative post. I'm glad to hear that this was a planned build, not a failure. :)

[MainEngDwarf]

Thanks!! :) Great post and I learned some things I didn't know. I look forward to following your progress.

[studio460]

Terrific post, Sarge! Thanks for sharing it with us!

[MarauderMark]

Terrific post, Sarge! Thanks for sharing it with us!


Great and informative Good thread! :up:

[2003 MIB]

Great thread, Mac. I think my favorite part is the budget. Amazing Marauder motors can (and have been) built but your exercise with a budget cap of $5K is something more people can swing- Good stuff!
POST MORE!

[Marauderman]

Mac--Your amazing!!!!! Great stuff for us non-wrenches-- Your energy and thoughtfullness towards detail and informing us all is truly appreciated... I will need to make a book of all "your stuff" here.......carry on ,....Tom

[Petrograde]

Great stuff Sarge! I look forward to the next installment

[cyclone03]

Mac great work,and post.

IMHO you should rethink not installing the Billet Oil Pump gears.Sean Hyland spends about a page and a half talking about oil pump set up in his book,just something to think about.I know the "might as well's"add up but they are sometimes better than the "oh well,I should have..."


I find it very interesting that you have an 8 bolt crank,too.
Ringer engine?

[Mike Poore]

Now y'all know why Mac's my new best friend. That's a terrific thread and write-up. Congratulations, and ...thanks for sharing.:high5:

[SergntMac]

Thanks guys, your kind words and advice is greatly appreciated.

The oil pump issue is still being discussed, but I don't like making these kinds of decisions from a "what the hell, why not" point of view. The FRP pump is being considered. I'm not intending to build more power here, just make better use of what I have, and safely.

BigSlim, did your MK VIII have coil on plug ignition?

[Slowpoke]

great work Mac.....

I STILL think you and Zack ought to open a garage. I would be proud to be the first customer!

I can hardly wait to borrow patches for the weekend when she is all put back together.

[2003 MIB]

IMHO you should rethink not installing the Billet Oil Pump gears.Sean Hyland spends about a page and a half talking about oil pump set up in his book,just something to think about.I know the "might as well's"add up but they are sometimes better than the "oh well,I should have..."
Me too, Lance!! It seems like a easy decision I respect the $5K budget AND folks who drive Mustangs on two wheels knowing more than I do. I think we'd all agree that stronger engines can be built but that's not the scope of the build.

The other thing that puts me in the "when you have a hammer all problems look like nails" is my own connecting rod failure. Maybe it's a rare occurence but if I built a Marauder motor it would have "hellbent for stout" rods and the cooling mod for 7 & 8. Overkill? I don't know but I'd sleep better knowing it was done.

[Jeff]

Thanks Mac! A GREAT read!

[dansenander]

Wow! That's alot of information!

I think you should be the first to Teflon Coat the top of the pistons so the crud doesn't stick to the top!!

While you're at it, Cryogenically Freeze all the parts prior to machine and balance to tighen up the metal properties. Last I checked it was $80 per 100# of metal.

Great write up, waiting for the follow ups.

[merc]

Not only is this an education process for everyone, it will more then likely be a path for me to follow. There are many questions that are going to be answered, and you are really at the meat and potatoes of our engine design. I have considered a Super Charger, but some hesitation considering what type of eternals we have. Mad-3R and myself have had countess conversations about forged vs. cast. I guess what I am trying to say is “ A good foundation is a better roadmap for success”. :burnout:

[Dr Caleb]

While you're at it, Cryogenically Freeze all the parts prior to machine and balance to tighen up the metal properties.

That's also called 'Cold Forging' metal. I've got a hunting knife that I did that to using liquid nitrogen. Wow! Can that sucker ever hold an edge now!

Excellent writeup BTW Sarge! It's in my permanent list of MM.net bookmarked threads!

[maraudernkc]

SergntMac, Excellent post and some nice photos. Did you say your target was $5000.00 parts and Labor? THat is my target to build that 4.6 with forged rods, pistons and crank so I can pump up the boost. Please, keep us posted.






I know I'm not the first owner to poke around under his MM hood, but I am the first to poke with some choice in the matter and to return here with some pics of what we really own under our hood. Every time I read of real major issues here, I pray for an autopsy. Not always possible, and I know why, so, I hope this is a refreshing change. At least I'm not fighting with factory reps over the right and wrong of it all.

The 4.6L DOHC design has been around for about 10 years now, each versions produced for a specific application, and each with it's own performance expectation. It's our turn, our "InTech 4V" is shared with the Mach I and Aviator, and all three were new models for 2003. I don't believe this engine was used prior to 2003 models, and the Marauder was to first to drive on it in the street. I see no plans for FMC to use this engine in the future, so, it's all rather mysterious to me. Y'all mention Cobra around here like it's cheese and crackers and we should know what's up. But, we don't, because there isn't one Cobra engine, but many of them and folks argue about what came with what,so, I just thought it would be fun to peek at what we got in the MM. Hope y'all enjoy.

I'm not going to say a lot about what's going or with or into my MM, simply because my plan is not that remarkable. This isn't a major exploration into new territory, or, a major undertaking. Actually, it's been quite simple and very cost effective to this point. I'm doing this on a budget, and to see where improvement is possible, and for how much. I expect the end result to be a "script" y'all can carry into your local race shop, and duplicate for about the same bucks.

The budget is 5K, including all labor, gaskets, fluids and tuning. Turnkey, because I'm not a wrench and I don't have the room in my garage to try this at home. Surely, if you do, you can save a lot of wrench bucks. When I'm done, I hope to have a stronger engine, with a tad more "elbow room" for tuning and performance. If I see any gains at all, I expect them to be modest and most likely resulting from better tuning possibilities.

My rationale is not only to build a stronger MM engine, I'm also very curious about "normal" wear and tear on our stock engine as we own it today. As y'all know, my MM is the Kenny Brown #1x, the first Marauder ever to be supercharged. It was beaten hard in testing and development, and I've not been much kinder in ownership. I have ripped apart my tranny and my rear end, so, IMHO, my engine is next.

Actual mileage doesn't mean much here, my style of driving probably doubles that anyway. Moreover, it's been an experimental car from day one, and lots of people have driven it while trying to drive it into the ground, and make it break. If there's a title among us for oldest and most beat, I own it. If my MM was an NFL quaterback, she would be a cripple by now.

While it's a general rule of thumb among us that supercharging and NOS shortens life expectancy of the stock engine, I'm hoping to come away with 411 not so specifically vague about that longevity. Doing an in-depth "physical" of what's happening under my hood today and right now, intrigues me.

The short story is that I am tearing my bone stock OEM engine down, and measuring everything spec-wise for wear. Then, I am replacing my pistons, rods and crankshaft and other minor stuff with aftermarket parts from Ford Racing, JE pistons, Eagle rods, ARP fastners, Cometic gaskets, Clevite bearings, and so on.

My chief designer on this project is...Me, deciding with guidance and advice from Randy Crowley, owner of PER racing ( www.per-race-engines.com (http://www.per-race-engines.com/) ) and my good friend Zack McGrath. I control the budget. Randy controls the specs and the build up. Zack controls ragging on us both for being chicken-snits about some stuff, but in the end, it all works. We don't always agree on stuff, nonetheless, these are my decisions for my MM, please keep your comments on the creative side of the thin line among us here. I do not want to see this thread closed prematurely, it's just too important for the average MM owner, if there is such a thing.

PER was my choice because of their achievement in local NMRA and NHRA racing. Randy Crowley is a local superwrench who knows his stuff, and PER has a lot of local Mustangs that do not use front tires to launch. Yes, there are better race shops, but they are more expensive, less flexible, and I don't want this to get financially out of hand. This is a conservative build intended to stay within a budget that any of y'all who can financially consider a supercharger kit, can consider among yourselves.

This is a work in progress, it's happening right now and I expect to produce some early test numbers within the next two weeks. The pics I have collected so far are few, but I'm collecting more. I just wanted to share some of the 411 here on behalf of those among us who haven't seen this stuff before. Y'all "seasoned vets" and "professional wrenches" are welcome to comment, but my narrative is geared for us less informed. No one learns anything when you get into the overly-techy details, not everyone knows all the lingo, or, the specs. I know I don't, so, please keep this in mind when pitching your pennies. On to part II...

[SergntMac]

I think you should be the first to Teflon Coat the top of the pistons so the crud doesn't stick to the top! While you're at it, Cryogenically Freeze all the parts prior to machine and balance to tighen up the metal properties. Last I checked it was $80 per 100# of metal.
When I saw the underlined text, I expected them to be hot links. Never heard of these treatments, care to share more?

[JACook]

I think you should be the first to Teflon Coat the top of the pistons so the crud doesn't stick to the top!! Dunno how Teflon would hold up. On a piston crown, I expect it'd burn off in short order. Advertising
claims aside, Teflon really isn't something that belongs inside an engine. Now, ceramic, OTOH, is a
different kettle of fish. Good thermal barrier, and resists carbon buildup.


While you're at it, Cryogenically Freeze all the parts prior to machine and balance to tighen up the metal properties. Last I checked it was $80 per 100# of metal. The last couple engines I built, I've had the cranks cryogenically treated. Good stuff, IMO.
Tightens up and hardens the journal surfaces, without the embrittlement concerns of nitriding.
A bit of a visual letdown, though, sending out a crank with nice shiny journals, and getting one
back that's all dull looking. :-)

[MAD-3R]

Mac,
If you don't go with the FRP Pump, get the Bittit Gears. It's insurance more then anything.

[Joe Walsh]

Mac..thanks for all the good photos....

My :twocents: :

-Oil Pump Gears; Detonation vibrations do travel directly from the crank and into the powerdered metal Pump Gears. I know...I'm rebuilding my engine (Oil Pump Gears grenaded at the top of second gear/6100 rpm) with all forged internals including the Pump Gears. When you are already spending $5-6K+ on a 'forged' engine why not drop the $300 for billet gears?? IMHO, powdered metal gears are just itchin' to turn back to powder.

-Aluminum Blocks; They are very durable! SIX BOLT MAINS! Modular Performance is building my engine and they have 800HP Cobras running Aluminum engines with NO PROBLEM. ( I think Ford is full of :bs: when they say why the S/C Cobras have cast iron blocks!)
-Powdered Metal Rods are the weak link. see> www.fatigue.org/Minutes/Fall-2003/Afzal-Shenoy.pdf
-Cast crank is actually pretty stout, RPMs is what kills Cast cranks (And, as Mac mentioned: out of balance and/or out of true snouts).

-Check out this site; www.300below.com It's a 'Cryo' freeze company. It looks like they can do a LOT of things...including Disc Brakes!! HMMMMMMM.... :rolleyes:

-If you are that worried about carbon build-up then add a simple water/alcohol spray system to the intake and use it once in a while...Water/Alcohol injection keeps your piston tops and valve faces clean as new, plus if you are supercharged it gives you more protection from detonation.

[bigslim]

Thanks guys, your kind words and advice is greatly appreciated.

The oil pump issue is still being discussed, but I don't like making these kinds of decisions from a "what the hell, why not" point of view. The FRP pump is being considered. I'm not intending to build more power here, just make better use of what I have, and safely.

BigSlim, did your MK VIII have coil on plug ignition?
Mac, I really can't answer that on the grounds that I don't know.

[SergntMac]

I added more pics to my gallery, pics of pistons, rods, bearings and that carbon thingy. I don't really know what to say now, this post is more "thinking out loud" than any fact. The pics are up, feel free to brainstom along with me?


http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392PSTPAIR1.JPG

I have pics of the MM piston top in several stages. Fully coated with this hard carbon stuff, steps taken during the cleaning, and a clean piston top where I hope y'all can see that 3cc dish, as well as part numbers, and "this way" arrows.

I don't know what to make of this carbon build up and I am inclined to think it can become a problem over the long term. It's become quite thick here, I hope this is visible in my pics. IMHO, it's been building for a while. I can remove it with a wire brush and some brake cleaner, yet it bothers me how stubborn it is too. The worst of them are the #7 and #8 pistons, which reside on the driver's side, up against the firewall.

It also bothers me to think that if I am collecting this hard carbon on the piston top, it's collecting on the bottom of the valves facing the piston top as well. I could not get pics of my valves before they were torn down and cleaned by PER, but I imagine that my cylinder compression was slowly rising while the octane does not, and if the worst are 7 and 8, this engine is destined to throw itself out of compression balance.

I'm going to take the cleanest piston I have, and the worst of what's not cleaned so far, and see if I can measure some thickness for this build up. I cannot help wondering if this has something to do with our infamous "engine tick." If the piston top and valve continue to collect hard carbon, they will, eventually, come in contact with each other. Eventually.

The rods you see are powdered metal, and while they feel rather durable in your hand, the manner in which they are manfactured is just like making glass from sand. To form the rods, metal sand is poured into a mold and compressed until it becomes solid. The end result is likewise as durable, think about that...I have.

Once formed, rod and cap are one solid piece, and the cap is created by crush impact to the rod end. This is called a "cracked rod" design, a process that means that the cap, once a full time part of the rod, can be used only with the rod it was created with. Every one of my rod and caps have numbers, they are "sets" with matching numbers on them, to insure that each cap is returned to it's parent. This may mean that our engines are assembled with great care. It may also mean that you can graduate from being a McDonald's cashier to the InTech engine assembly line simply once you're old enough to work 3rd shift, and can understand what a "this way" arrow means. I'm not really impressed here, I expected better. But, I digress In My Own Humble Opinion, IMOHO.

Rod bearings (and matching crank shaft journals) are practically new, and that's a relief to me. Any serious detonation would leave trace evidence of that on the bearing itself, as a shinny flat spot worn into the bearing. As it was pointed out ^ there by JohnE (and thanks, John), detonation is a hard shock to the piston top that telegraphs likewise hard shock through the rod and into the crank, throwing the crank out of it's centrifugal balance for a split second as it rotates at high speed.

Ummm...Let's get a mental picture of this, eh? Imagine grabbing a very long and thin stick (maybe a bamboo pole?) in one hand, and jerking it straight up and down from the center. The ends "wobble" out of sync with the point where you hold it, and though you are moving it up and down, the ends whip in circles. This "wobble," whips up against other stuff mounted fore and aft of the crank. The oil pump gears up front suffer the most, and the transmission input shaft out back suffer the least. Both suffer, only one will murder your engine.

One, or, two cylinders anywhere along the crank shaft that suffer detonation "pings" will throw the crank shaft out of round at the ends, and a split second of serious wobble is all it takes to grenade oil pump gears. The tranny is a bit more forgiving. The back end of the MM eight bolt crank is attached to the flex plate, which is attached to the torque converter, and the power goes south from that point. However, these connections have some play in them, more "give." It's called a flex plate for a reason, eh?

BTW, my Stallion triple plate TC just came back from PI with a clean bill of health, and an adjustment to a 3500 RPM stall. This may have been an overly expensive TC at the time of purchase two years ago (1200 bucks!), but that came with a promise of a warranty that PI surely stands behind today. Free inspection, rebuild, adjustment, and I am sure any repairs it may have required, just for the the cost of shipping, 31 bucks from my zip code. Go figure, thank you Jack at PI (www.converter.com (http://www.converter.com/))

I'll post more as this build continues, thank you all for you participation. I am inclined to attack the detonation, rather than butress the wobble...What say y'all?

[cyclone03]

Mac,I hate to beat on you about this,but,are you sure you removed an 8 BOLT crank from your Marauder?
I ask because if so you allready have a steel crank.Mine is a six bolt BTW.

[merc406]

Carbon buildup part of a progam or injector issue?

[Ross]

Great post, Mac!



-If you are that worried about carbon build-up then add a simple water/alcohol spray system to the intake and use it once in a while...Water/Alcohol injection keeps your piston tops and valve faces clean as new, plus if you are supercharged it gives you more protection from detonation.

This carbon build up thing has me intrigued, and maybe a little concerned. As mentioned in the above quote, there is the water/alcohol injection system to clean carbon off the pistons. I know there are a zillion engine additives which claim to clean off carbon deposits, but I figure most of them are just snake oil.

Is there really something you can add to an engine on a periodic basis to clean out carbon? Assuming that we change our oil regularly, get out on the freeway and "blow the carbon out" regularly, and generally take care of our cars, what more can I do to keep it clean internally?

I remember back in the day, some guys would even slowly pour transmission fluid down into the carbuerator while manually holding the throttle open. More snake oil?

[TripleTransAm]

Carbon deposits also tend to serve as hot spots in the combustion area, which then leads to pre-ignition. I think the Marauder's programming isn't the cleanest, overall, in the quest for squeaking out satisfactory fuel mileage, and I think this is a large contributor to the deposits. And I suspect not all MM programs behave the same way... for instance with my late-issue CRD1 I never suffered the cold cough/sputter that plagued many early programs although the car does seem a bit more hesitant in the cold, but on the other hand I've come to experience overheated cylinders that killed valve guides (whether the high temperatures caused the failure directly or not, is still up for debate, but the cylinders affected did show signs of higher temps).

Considering this particular KB was driven hard, I was surprised to see that much deposited on the piston top. However, with the supercharged nature of the car, fuel maps most certainly had to be changed to address the substantial additional quantity of air this motor ingests at WOT.

On a fairly unmodified car, I'd not worry too much about such a buildup. With fairly easy driving, my 4.6 only showed deposits on the cylinders where the guides were failing... understandable considering the puff of smoke I'd get after the car rested overnight. With a modified fuel map, well... we're putting our faith on a dyno-tuned map versus a map that's supposed to have undergone millions of miles of testing. (which still doesn't explain how they allowed the initial factory programs to be released as is!).

[SergntMac]

More new pics in my gallery, I'll come back to them in a minute.
http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showgallery.php/cat/500/ppuser/392

About this "carbon" stuff...IMHO, this carbon is unburned gasoline, stuff that didn't fully combust because spark was pre/post mature and "off time" if you will. Or, the conditions for an ideal burn were not perfect, i.e. too hot or too cold.

As I hoped to show with pics, this carbon is thicker than I'd like it to be. In some pics, simple brake cleaner is very effective in cleaning it away, I'd say this stuff collected over the last 96 hours of engine operation, which were mostly rush hour creep ahead conditions. Yet, still in other pics, a wire brush was needed to scrape this carbon away, and that scraping left a fine dust on the table that I could ignite with a match. This is long term carbon collection, which I feel is more threatening to engine longevity.

Therefore, IMHO, this is more a layer of charcoal, the same stuff we fire up to cook burgers and dogs. When it's dust on my tabletop, it's acts more like typical black powder because it "flashes up" on ignition from a simple match. On the piston top, it's more dense, and lacking more oxygen, it's a tougher burn to ignite. But, once it does, it burns off full and clean. Moreover, if it's collecting to this degree on the piston tops, it's likewise collecting on the valve faces, and with both surfaces gaining weight and "getting fatter" in this manner. This will lead to a collision someday, and that's not good. What to do about it?

My first suggestion to anyone who has an engine tick, is to get a professional wrench to pull some plugs and take a peek with a bore scope. This tool isn't that expensive, and any real pro should already own one, and the cost of inspection should not exceed the cost of installing spark plugs. BTW, inspect your plugs too. If you find this carbon, then what?

Well, it's like lighting up the BBQ in your back yard. You need to get the charcoal hot enough to combust by itself and burn off in a natural way.

On-ramp blasts and short term WOT romps won't do that, in fact, they will just add to it. Moreover, if you have a lot of charcoal on your pistons and valves, you could seriously injure your internals by trying a WOT run to clean it out, so, that's not an answer here.

You need to run this engine "hotter" and "harder" than usual, and I don't mean coolant temperature warmer. I mean combustion temperature, and this can be done in a simple Sunday afternoon drive on the highway.

First, improve your customary day to day fuel octane, find a race shop or a gas station that sells this stuff and buy yourself 5 gallons of 100 or better octane gasoline. This may cost you 40-50 bucks, but if that's all this maintence will cost you, feel good about it, because you're not buying a new engine.

Add this five gallons to a half tank or less of your customary blend, and get out a road map. Pick a spot for lunch and go for a drive, but keep the overdrive off. Run the car at 3000 RPM, or, better, and for an hour, or, longer. Repeat on the drive home. By the time you get home, you'll have run through a tank of gas, yes, but your MM will be running as sweet as she can. Do this once a month, and I believe you will never see what I've found in my engine. A bore scope exam will tell you that truth about this.

Mac,I hate to beat on you about this,but,are you sure you removed an 8 BOLT crank from your Marauder? I ask because if so you allready have a steel crank.Mine is a six bolt BTW.This is one pic I did not collect the other day, Lance, so, when I returned to PER today to catch up on my build, I asked Chris to see my crank again. It had been put up in storage for resale, or, use in a low-buck repair, but he drug it out anyway and here it is. BTW, I know this is a confusing point, and I apologize for adding to any confusion. I'm just the intermediate here, please don't shoot the messenger.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/3928BOLT1.JPG

Other stuff going on today, is work on my block, and more work on my heads. Here's my driver's side head after a "conservative" valve grind. No high performance tricks here, nothing ground down and polished shinny. Just glass beading of surfaces for a smooth finish, and simple "tailoring" of each valve, valve seat, and port, as they need to be tailored for a smooth flow and tight seal.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392HEADS5.JPG

The larger holes to your right are the intake valve surfaces, the smaller holes to your left are exhaust valves. The center of this "five dice" is where the spark plug shows it's nose.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392VALSEAT1.JPG

Intake ports leading into the intake valve...

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392EXPORTS1.JPG

Exhaust ports leading out of the exhaust valves...

Ummm...When Dennis Reinhart says his Cobra exhaust manifolds are "port matched," these are the ports he's talking about and it's good that the manifold side of this communion is larger than the head side. Likewise for the Kook's headers, which I have also compared. Both are larger, and flow more air. The OEM manifolds are remarkably smaller and impede full exhaust flow potential. This is one reason the DR Cobra exhaust kit improves overall power, the air flow away from the combustion chamber is unrestricted and you get that when you upgrade to either Reinhart manifolds, or, Kook's headers. The extra heat transfer values of a cast iron manifold porting exhaust gasses away from an aluminum head, you do not get. Neither do you benefit from cast iron sound suppression. But, this isn't an exhaust thread, is it...

Also new today, my new Eagle "H" beam rods are here. Here's one of a few pics in my gallery, please check it out for more pics?

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392JERODS1.JPG

I'll be back tomorrow with more commentary about them, and more notes on progress. I apologize for cutting y'all off right now, but it takes a lot of time to write these posts, and create a narrative for each pic. I don't mind doing it, I like sharing. It's almost as if y'all have some helping hand in this build. But, posting about it all takes time, and I'm out of that for today.

[valleyman]

Mac - just want to chime in to say "Thank you" for taking the time.

[Joe Walsh]

Great post, Mac!



This carbon build up thing has me intrigued, and maybe a little concerned. As mentioned in the above quote, there is the water/alcohol injection system to clean carbon off the pistons. I know there are a zillion engine additives which claim to clean off carbon deposits, but I figure most of them are just snake oil.

Is there really something you can add to an engine on a periodic basis to clean out carbon? Assuming that we change our oil regularly, get out on the freeway and "blow the carbon out" regularly, and generally take care of our cars, what more can I do to keep it clean internally?

I remember back in the day, some guys would even slowly pour transmission fluid down into the carbuerator while manually holding the throttle open. More snake oil?


The Transmission Fluid trick DOES work BUT I don't think that Catalytic Converters like all the Smoke that is created when the ATF burns...

I have used, with good results "REGANE" fuel additive. When my '85 GT 5.0 would start to 'ping' on long pulls through the gears, I would buy a bottle of "REGANE" and add it to a tank of 93 octane. I would then run it for that tankful.
When I filled up next time the 'pinging' was gone.

I'm still not convinced that 'carbon build-up' is such a terrible thing. I wouldn't worry about it. (If carbon build-up were that detrimental and damaging every high mileage engine should have self destructed by now.)

[JACook]

This is one pic I did not collect the other day, Lance, so, when I returned to PER today to catch up on my build, I asked Chris to see my crank again. It had been put up in storage for resale, or, use in a low-buck repair, but he drug it out anyway and here it is. BTW, I know this is a confusing point, and I apologize for adding to any confusion. I'm just the intermediate here, please don't shoot the messenger. Sarge, this doesn't look like the same crank y'all showed us yesterday. Hard to see the details in this photo,
but this crank looks forged, and not as clean as the other photos. And what's up with the manual trans
pilot bushing/bearing in the big end? How's the pilot lug on a torque converter gonna fit in there?

Just sayin'

[SergntMac]

Sarge, this doesn't look like the same crank y'all showed us yesterday. Hard to see the details in this photo, but this crank looks forged, and not as clean as the other photos. And what's up with the manual trans pilot bushing/bearing in the big end? How's the pilot lug on a torque converter gonna fit in there? Just sayin'I'll ask again, but it won't be before next Tuesday. I admit that I'm at the mercy of shop employees, here, I wasn't on hand when they took the engine down, and I'm collecting pics from the stuff they point to in several sections of the shop. In fact, come to think of it, the only parts and pics I can really call my own, are the piston/rod assemblies they let me take home. The rest is good faith, I'll let you know what I learn.

I'm still not convinced that 'carbon build-up' is such a terrible thing. I wouldn't worry about it. (If carbon build-up were that detrimental and damaging every high mileage engine should have self destructed by now.)I won't disagree with you Joe, but seeing this stuff built up is very thought provoking, and I'm just thinking out loud here.

If carbon continues to build unchecked, the piston top will eventually come in contact with the valves or spark plug, right? So, the dimensions are changing, and these moving parts are growing closer together. Here's a pic of my #8 cylider wall, it's not the best to work with, but I believe you see a ring or carbon around the top of the cylinder. This was removed in the line boring, but it was tough enough to leave it to the machine for removal.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/3928.JPG

I think your logic is valid to say that if this were a real problem, we wouldn't see the high mileage durability we see across the spectrum of Ford products, and I think I'm sayin the same thing. The high mileage engines are getting the use that reduces this build up in the first place. The engines at risk from this, are in the cars that do not see much highway use. Where else do you get high mileage, but highway use?

Moreover, when a serious failure does occur, people tend to settle for a generic explanation and move on, never learning exactly what caused the failure. When a piston and valve come into contact with each other, something will break, we know that. When it forces a rod through the block, usually no really cares why, they just "threw a rod" and set out to fix it. This carbon stuff is almost as tough as the piston composite itself, and I can see it becoming a problem for a low mileage city-driven/weekend engines, however few that may be.

[JACook]

If carbon continues to build unchecked, the piston top will eventually come in contact with the valves or spark plug, right? So, the dimensions are changing, and these moving parts are growing closer together. Here's a pic of my #8 cylider wall, it's not the best to work with, but I believe you see a ring or carbon around the top of the cylinder. This was removed in the line boring, but it was tough enough to leave it to the machine for removal. Sarge, some comments WRT carbon buildup.

First, I've pulled down engines that were much worse than yours, but of course they had higher mileage.
While I agree that the buildup isn't necessarily a Good Thing, that's because of the thermal and compression
ratio effects, rather than any interference concerns. Valves typically have ~.120 minimum clearance to the
pistons at their closest point, so I don't expect you'd ever build up enough of this stuff that the pistons and
valves will ever get to know each other. The piston-to-head clearance can be quite a bit tighter in the quench
zones- I usually aim for around .030 to .040- but these areas of the piston will tend not to build up so much
because of the quench turbulence, and the lack of combustion heat in this region of the piston. You should
notice this on your pistons as areas that are cleaner, and/or the deposits are softer, on the areas of the
crowns that are directly over the thrust faces.

The buildup is tough, yes, but it's also brittle, and as it gets thicker, it actually gets easier to chip off.
It's very common to find piston crowns with a nonuniform layer of buildup, caused by bits of it flaking off.

I will also suggest that what you're seeing on the piston crowns isn't entirely carbon.
Normally, this stuff will be a mixture of carbon and light brownish ash deposits. The ash comes from
motor oil. Engines that run synthetics don't get ash buildup, but do get their own types of buildup that
can resemble bakelite (or worse, if you're using any kind of PTFE additive). Late-model engines tend to
have more problem with ash residue buildup, because the low-tension rings in these engines allow more
oil to get past the rings. Adding a crankcase vacuum pump, and/or gas porting the pistons would help,
but it's probably overkill in a street engine.

As an engine guy, the thing I would tend to be most concerned about, is pistons like the one you show
in this thread, where you've got an area that's completely clean. If this is how the piston looked when
you pulled the heads, and if I'm guessing right that this area corresponds to the exhaust-valve-side quench
zone, you're running a bit hot here. Was this piston from the #8 hole? If so, it's good you're doing Dennis'
cooling mod. NB I wouldn't be so concerned if this area of the piston had a greasy film that wiped off.

Overall, the pistons in your gallery seem to look like there's a lack of good quench turbulence, though
it's kind of hard to tell from the photos. I'd be interested in knowing how much deck clearance your
engine had (or has, if your new rods are the same length as stock), and how thick your head gaskets are.

I'll add my thanks as well, for all your excellent photos! Sure beats pulling my own engine apart. :-)

[SergntMac]

Thank you for the 411, JA, I enjoyed it very much, and I'll be asking about the deck clearance and gaskets. Randy gave me some figures before, but that was prior to the tear down. I know he likes the Cometic gaskets. Any clean spots you see in the pics are from trying to clean them. They all looked the same at first glance.

[TripleTransAm]

Great thread! A lot of what's been said here has had me going back to look at the photos of my own dismantled driver's side during the head replacement last fall.

Most notable was the discussion on the "ridge" on the cylinder walls... this brought to light the more noticeable ridge in the affected cylinders in my own engine. Not only did I have a greater amount of crusty irregular deposits on my pistons in those cylinders, but the ridge is WAY more pronounced on the sick cylinders than the others. I never thought to look for this all this time... after seeing the faint marking of where the pistons rings actually come to rest on the upstrokes (about 3/4 inch down from the deck), I figured that was that and never looked closer to the deck surface itself.

And Jeff, thanks for the confirmation on the overheating thing (which I also saw on those cylinders that were overheating). I do have a question about the 'bakelite' stuff... I am not totally familiar with that word, the only time I've ever seen this word before was in reference to some old 60s guitars when I was researching my own '67. I'm getting the impression this is tougher to remove than the more brittle carbon deposits? If so, is there any long term issue between this and whatever is deposited from use of conventional motor oil? Which one is more desirable (ie lesser of two evils)?

[John F. Russo]

I want to personally thank you for the fine detective work that should help us MM owners.

[cyclone03]

Not taking aim at the messenger.
Just saying you got the MAC Daddy crank if it was an 8 bolt that came out of your car,so you can save some $$ unless your going stroker too.

[sailsmen]

Friday put the MM on the Dyno, same Dyno as 3-5-04.

My Peak HP and Torque numbers are virtually the same as they were 16K miles ago and 71 runs at the track ago! This proves that the Mod Motor is Stout! :)

[JACook]

I am not totally familiar with that word, the only time I've ever seen this word before was in reference to some old 60s guitars when I was researching my own '67. I'm getting the impression this is tougher to remove than the more brittle carbon deposits? If so, is there any long term issue between this and whatever is deposited from use of conventional motor oil? Which one is more desirable (ie lesser of two evils)? Well, it's not Bakelite per se, but kinda resembles it. Actually, Bakelite is an early form of phenolic plastic,
made by combining carbolic acid with formaldehyde. Bakelite is a hard flameproof plastic, used for
everything from radios to oven knobs to shifter knobs.

Synthetic oils are made from either ester or olefin base stocks, and these are both ingredients in several
different types of polymers. When combined with carbon and detergent ash, it forms a layer that looks
a lot like Bakelite. Now, I'm no chemist by any stretch, so I can't tell you what it actually is, just what
it looks like. Hope I didn't lead anyone down a path here.

As far as which is preferable, I'd say either or neither depending on how you want to look at it.
I'd much rather keep whichever kind of oil in the crankcase, and out of the combustion chambers.
Failing that, coatings are a good way to keep the deposits from bonding to the piston crowns and
combustion chambers. Stickin' yer foot in it on a regular basis doesn't hurt either... :-)

[martyo]

Mac: did you step up to a JT trim from the S trim?

[SergntMac]

Mac: did you step up to a JT trim from the S trim?No. I had a few almost moments, even had an RMA number. But, I decided to respect my initial project goal, and keep it as "stock specs" as I could. So, I just upped the bling with a polished blower and powdercoat bracket. It's a V2, S Trim. MirrorLook.com did a much better polish job that Vortech would have.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392BLOWER1.JPG


New/more pics in my Gallery, folks, take a peek. Here's my honed/washed/magnafluxed and decked block, .0005 on the decking.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392DUNBLOK2.JPG


Heads are completely reassembled, OEM springs and cams, shims added where needed, magnafluxed, washed, decked .0005 and ready to go.

The purpose of "decking" is similar to milling a piece of lumber flat. Once decked, the head and block mating surfaces are true and provide stability for the head gaskets. The Cometic gaskets should seal nicely.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392DUNVLVS1.JPG


I took some pics of my JE pistons, but the camera was acting weird and bouncing the flash all over. Here's a rough pic, I hope you can appreciate the 14cc dish top that will drop the compression to 9.1:1 This is the only change from stock specs I agreed to. Randy is going to get some better shots, I'll post them when I get them

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392NEWPIST3.JPG


The only change in specs was the piston compression ratio, I won't have to retune, but adjusting the AFR is likely. We decided to retain the OEM oil pump and gears, because according to Randy, Roush Engineering has lab tested the stock 4.6 oil pump through 9000 RPM. I'm still within budget too, so far it's 5650.00 for a turn key upgrade, and I find that very reasonable. I'm sure you could save a few bucks by doing the labor yourself.

The engine is in it's final assembly stages and Patches could be up and running Friday evening. I'm in no hurry, but Randy is. He needs the room for his next project, an '05 Mustang GT. You know, this guy can get some great deals, a brand new 2005 Mustang for on 3500 bucks. Can ya believe it?

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/39205GT2.JPG

[Tallboy]

great pics, mac! thanks for making such an informative post-i re-read it often. it's nice that you've taken the time to document all this, as it lets anyone who's thinking of doing this know what to expect. kinda like an on-line shop class!:)

[martyo]

No. I had a few almost moments, even had an RMA number. But, I decided to respect my initial project goal, and keep it as "stock specs" as I could. So, I just upped the bling with a polished blower and powdercoat bracket. It's a V2, S Trim. MirrorLook.com did a much better polish job that Vortech would have.

Well, if you change your mind and want to up the ante, I have one for sale that will bolt right up to your car.

[SergntMac]

Well, if you change your mind and want to up the ante, I have one for sale that will bolt right up to your car.
E-mail me some numbers, I've not escaped the lure of power.

[Zack]

E-mail me some numbers, I've not escaped the lure of power.

Remember Mac, ChuckB is making 602 rwhp and 618 rwtq with the SQ and an 18 lb pulley. (Yes on his Marauder for over a year now) (He is a member here)
I wouldnt step up to that quite yet.

[stevengerard]

so Zack does that mean you can get me to 500 rhp & rtq

[SergntMac]

Remember Mac, ChuckB is making 602 rwhp and 618 rwtq with the SQ and an 18 lb pulley. (Yes on his Marauder for over a year now) (He is a member here)
I wouldnt step up to that quite yet.
Okay, okay...Just window shopping. Tis' the season, eh?

Just thinking out loud, "if the price is right," anything is possible.

You're about ready to step up, no?

[Donny Carlson]

He needs the room for his next project, an '05 Mustang GT. You know, this guy can get some great deals, a brand new 2005 Mustang for on 3500 bucks. Can ya believe it?

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/39205GT2.JPG
Cool! He got one of the FRP 2005 Mustang "body-in-white"s
http://www.fordracingparts.com/announcements/news02.asp

http://www.fordracingparts.com/images/biw/biw01.jpghttp://www.fordracingparts.com/images/biw/biw03.jpghttp://www.fordracingparts.com/images/biw/biw02.jpg

Only down side? No VIN so it can't be registered for street use.

[BillyGman]

"I'm going to take the cleanest piston I have, and the worst of what's not cleaned so far, and see if I can measure some thickness for this build up. I cannot help wondering if this has something to do with our infamous "engine tick." If the piston top and valve continue to collect hard carbon, they will, eventually, come in contact with each other. Eventually."

Carbon build-up on piston tops is normal and very common. It isn't neccessarily anything to worry about unless it gets abnormally excessive. If it does, then it can cause pre-ignition and even pinging in some cases, but that usually happens w/high mileage engines only. I've performed engine rebuilds where I've seen the same type of carbon on the piston tops of an engine that was running fine and had 60,000 miles on it, and after cleaning off the piston tops completely during the rebuild, I then found that when I removed the cylinder heads again merely 2,000 miles later to "clay" the motor in order to check for piston-to-valve clearence due to a radical cam change that I had later decided on, that the piston tops were coated w/carbon all over again just as they were before which looked just like the pics of your piston tops. And that was after merely having 2,000 miles put on that engine after just scrubbing the pistons clean. This is normal and isn't any cause for concern.


Let's not forget that there's a constant flamefront going on inside the cylinders of an internal combustion engine during the powerstroke. The typical piston crown reaches temperatures of 525 to 550 degrees (F.) during the combustion process, so w/that kind of heat they're simply not going to remain shiny clean. Just as you cannot expect the inside walls of your fireplace and chimney to remain clean. I haven't ever seen valves w/as much carbon build-up on their faces as pistons typically have. Perhaps that's because pistons are made of aluminum while valves are steel, I dunno. Although i have seen a lot of thick deposits on the valve stems. but that's another story.


As far as the carbon build-up getting so thick that it would cause the valves to hit the pistons, I have to say that I cannot see that as ever being a problem either. The minimum valve-to-piston clearence spec for street engines is .100" and factory engines have considerably more clearence than that. So not to worry.;)

[SergntMac]

A light "dusting" of carbon is normal and expected and it will flow away with a shot of brake cleaner, or, other cleaning solution, you can see that in other pics. However, underneath that, I found hard crusty irregular chunks building on the postion top, and that made me wonder out loud about cause, effect and potential. I pursued it since then, all came clean with a stiffer brush.

Looking at half a dozen piston tops for other engines lying around PER, none had this buildup of crusty/chunky carbon. There is non-invasive correction should it be a concern for anyone, the piston tops can be scrubbed through the spark plug portal.

[BillyGman]

The carbon build-up that i was talking about that I had seen when I opened up my Vette engine a couple times was very hard also, and I couldn't remove it w/out using a stiff copper brush. And again, the second time was the same way, and was only 2,000 miles later. Just sharing what happened to me in my engine building experience. I hope this helps.

[Paul T. Casey]

First, thanks for the pic's and descriptions Sarge, very useful information. I won't go into the build-up, that's been covered rather nicely, IMHO. I would like to address the Powdered metal forgings a little, maybe put some fears to rest. This process is nothing all that new. I worked for a forging company for a while in the 80's -90's. Several jet engine companies required the use of this technology. Companies P, G, and S all made commercial jet engines. They also made military jet engines. For the commercial lines, they all used the good old fashioned forging techniques, heat some metal, press it into the nearly desired shape, machine away what you don't want. For the "high performance" stuff, all required powdered metal forging. The reason behind this is with powdered metal, much more of the impurities can be screened out. Another reason is you have much more control over the properties of the metal such as grain flow, grain size, hardness, etc. If the process is controlled, which I am fairly certian happens even down as low as a supplier to Ford, the product turns out to be a higher quality, and somewhat cheaper for the end use or "shape." Tolerances within the actual die used to make these powdered metal products are tighter, or more close to the "final net shape." This reduces machining costs (less metal to remove) and lowers the chances of machining related discontinuities (heat cracking, using more of tolerance as tools wear, affecting mechanical properties through heat generated during machining, etc.). Granted, some of these metals were rather exotic, but we also did the same process with good old carbon steel. This process was also used by this same company to make the crankshafts of the supercharged Thunderbirds in the 80's. Same reasoning was behind this. I would not be overly worried about these parts (rods), but if you are rebuilding, go with whatever part makes you feel most comfortable. Maybe Mr. Russo will chime in with his metallury knowledge also.

[SergntMac]

I agree, Paul. Before actually seeing and holding the internals in my hands, I was overly concerned that powdered metal engine parts were inferior for heavy duty applications. After I got my hands on them, and noted the actual wear and tear on my OEM parts, I am no longer concerned to that degree. For most MM owners, there's nothing to worry about, but I couldn't say that without learning it myself first. I know it better now than I ever knew it before, it's the tune that keeps your engine in good health.

I feel my comparison of powdered metal to glass is accurate, both in manufacturing and durability. Steel forged is safer because it's more flexible when things start to bend and push in a manner they were not designed to endure. Powdered metal is stronger, until it's bent wrong. A bad tune, or serious detonation is bending things wrong, It's like jumping out a first floor window and landing on your feet with knees locked, someting will go pop. With detonation, powdered metal bends like glass. Steel forged will break too, but it will endure more bending first.

Surely, this mod isn't for everyone, and it's not a necessary consideration, not even for supercharged application that are tuned correctly. The wear and tear on my OEM internals is very minimal. But, if you're looking to build more power, or, want to buy more durability, some ground work has been laid for you here. There's nothing exotic here, don't be afraid of it. A built motor by the right shop is not as hard to come by or as expensive as you may think.

Used Marauder engines are available under 1K, bare mountain blocks are under 700 and can ship via UPS. If you're handy with a wrench and inclined to follow this path, you could keep things under 4K easy.

[Paul T. Casey]

Just wanted to shed a little light on powdered metal technology and help allay any fears of it. I agree that the tune is the thing also, however if your internals bend or break, what does it really matter? You're finished and looking at a new engine either way. Not meaning any flame or anything like that. I do like this thread and thank you for your work on it. :2thumbs:

[SergntMac]

Just wanted to shed a little light on powdered metal technology and help allay any fears of it. I agree that the tune is the thing also, however if your internals bend or break, what does it really matter? You're finished and looking at a new engine either way. Not meaning any flame or anything like that. I do like this thread and thank you for your work on it. :2thumbs:
Tried to e-mail you, Paul, no luck. I didn't feel you were flaming anything, and thnk you for your compliments. Thank you all for the kind replies.

[Warpath]

I didn't read the entire thread since it is so long. So, forgive me if I'm repeating. I agree that the powdered metal rods are fine for most people. They are a weak link when pushing hp levels. The problem with powdered metal is that the sand grains do not fully combine together. Basically, the individual sand grains weld to each other (they deform also to some degree). Therefore, the part is left porous. This porosity can come in handy if you need the part to retain oil or other fluids. But, the porosity makes it weak as well.

[deerejoe]

I greatly admire the involvement of SergntMac and MartyO in their methods of building/rebuilding their respective Marauder engines. I know their frustrations and expenditures will eventually pay personal dividends in accomplisment and pleasure...hopefully, for many times their overall investment in time/effort and money. The road can be long and full of detours achieving their dream.

Dedicated mechanics that enjoy their many laurels of quality workmanship are an eccentric lot...not governed necessarily by time lines and cost constraints.

Hypostatizing for a moment...might be having this same dream as Sarge and Marty but going at it in a different direction. One that begins by initially removing the OEM engine, scavenging all desired parts/accessories and purchasing a new basic engine block to begin the rebuild from. This allows the choice to happen at any desired mileage without the consequence of having to work around use related obstacles with the OEM engine of higher mileage use.

If you have a knowledge of engine parts inventory, you can then purchase all the after market substitutes you want to use in YOUR engine build.
The shop/mechanic(s) you have CAREFULLY selected then have only to install your parts without the delay of preparation inherent with your 'old' engine.

The new block can be magnafluxed, aline-bored and honed if you desire, before starting the build. Heads can be matched as well.
Superior parts suppliers offer components which are balanced and true. A knowledge of high performance parts users, ie; drag racers, NASCAR, etc. can be a source of this information when assembling your list of desired parts.

I do not have the numbers to compare the relative costs between these two methods of building your dream engine; but to me it would be worth the effort in knowing that the engine now up front was all MY inspiration in achieving.
The coming winter months will provide a perfect time for putting such a plan to paper for a cost analysis.
With all the other related components that have been discussed and offered by vendors on this site...headers, transmission, drive lines, rear end ratios, brakes and all other performance related enhancements, one has only to find the shop and write the check to make it all happen.

Maybe this approach is too simplistic. However, I have had my experience with 'the engine build' a few years back and the problems then continue to this present day based upon my reads from the above posters. I just feel that the more simple the approach, the more economical and expedient the results might be. Its certainly worth looking into.

There has to be more than one way to skin a 'cat'!!

Good luck to Sarge and Marty...I will continue to monitor your progress.
Thanks to both of you and all the rest of the posters who continue to share your dreams and experiences.

[SergntMac]

She's done! Patches is back home now. This has been a long thread that hopefully will someday morph into a neat 411 file for the MM.Net, we'll see. Untll then, there are a few new pics in my gallery and I'll summarize for y'all what's taken place. I have more pics coming from PER on specific internals, but what's up here now is a good start.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392DONE1.JPG

First, the money. The budget was projected at 5650.00, and it closed at 6307.00, including all misc. hoses, fluids, and so on. Not bad, IMHO. Randy at PER is pretty good at sticking to the plan. Now, what did my money buy?

R&R engine, tear down long block, pressure wash block and heads, deglaze and hone block w/torque plates, restore cross-hatching, add Ford Racing crankshaft, with polished journals, mic, and balance, balanced JE forged pistions, 14CC dish, file fit rings, Eagle forged rods, Clevite 77 main and rod bearings, deck heads and block, Cometic gaskets, ARP stud kit and fastners, performance 4V valve grind, degree cams, add blower lube kit, and probably a few other things I don't recall right now. Nonetheless, the engine fired up on the first crank, and it's time to knock down the 500 mile break in period before serious tuning.

"Aye, mate, now that's a dyno fan!"

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/data/500/392DYNOFAN.JPG


The next stop was the DynoJet at High Speed Performance. Under 100 miles on a new engine and I'm hitting the dyno...Am I nuts? What about that "break-in period?" Well, Randy assured me that the build was race ready, and I could do anything I wanted with no worries, except drive at a flat RPM, or, idle for long periods. Ummm...Okay. We'll see...

Drove in and strapped her down. Had some trouble getting traction and I caught that with my Sony Mavica, but I can't upload the .mpg here. Anyway, the dyno results look real good. I gave up approximately 64 RWHP and 49 RWTQ. MY AFR dropped from a 13.5 to just under 12, so, it's all looking real healthy at this stage.

The engine has a tick which needs to be tracked down. I suspect it's an exhaust tick, and we'll get to it. But, I'm also told that when cold starting a fresh engine with forged aluminum pistons, it will sound like a diesel engine until it warms up. Can't say myself, I haven't been down this road before, but my Lord, you should have head that crunchy growl this morining at 32 degrees. You would have called a tow truck, something is loose inside that block. It's not, it's as tight and trustworthy as you could ask for. But still, it's noise I'm not yet used too. Once she did warm up, things sounded much better, and I'll work on that tick this week.

Seat-of-the-pants performance is stunning, Zack and I can't believe how she runs through the gears. On our first drive, she was bogging on WOT and coughing and spitting like a lifetime smoker. We were puzzeled at first and thought the AFR was so rich it was clogging the O2 sensors, so, Zack reflashed my tune from my HHP and that cleared the memory tables. Patches took off like a rocket after that.

I don't get this, but I'm not trying to get it. I lowered compression about 1 point, and the car runs better than before with very strong 1 and 2nd gears. Later on in 3rd, above 5000 RPM, it starts to thin out a bit. Looking again at the dyno report, I see an important increase in low RPM power, but overall power is still down. This car never ran better in it's life, and we haven't started the tweaking yet. I guess this is what happens when your lower compressions ever so slightly. While I cannot prove it for lack of data, I have a feeling my OEM cam timing was out of whack from the production line. This engine has a real precise feeling to it now, snug and dialed in. But, I could be imagining things too.

Well, that's about it for this update. I'll collect my 500 miles of break-in with no easy terms, then it's off to Lidio for his professional tweaking, perhaps pulley and MAF improvements as well.

[BillyGman]

Hypostatizing for a moment...might be having this same dream as Sarge and Marty but going at it in a different direction. One that begins by initially removing the OEM engine, scavenging all desired parts/accessories and purchasing a new basic engine block to begin the rebuild from.
I believe that this is what Marty has done. Please feel free to correct me if I'm wrong, but I believe that Marty has purchased an iron block in the beginning of his project, which is the same thing as you've mentioned. And he went from there.

[Fourth Horseman]

Looks really nice, Sarge.
:bows:

[SergntMac]

I do not have the numbers to compare the relative costs between these two methods of building your dream engine; but to me it would be worth the effort in knowing that the engine now up front was all MY inspiration in achieving. The coming winter months will provide a perfect time for putting such a plan to paper for a cost analysis....I just feel that the more simple the approach, the more economical and expedient the results might be. Its certainly worth looking into. There has to be more than one way to skin a 'cat'!
Thank you all for your compliments.

Joe...It's not my "dream engine," right now, but it could come to be that someday. My intent may have been set aside in the evolution of this thread, but my intent was to 1) look inside and see what (and how much) had worn from 20K miles of supercharged beating, and 2) build a solid engine with future potential on a budget.

It's not anyone's dream engine, just a base upgrade, but think I accomplished what I set out to learn too. BTW, the evidence from the tear down of the OEM engine shows nominal wear and tear. The MM engine assembly is quite durable, and can take quite a pounding. Nonetheless, there is a limit to what it can take, and what it can produce when you push it all to the limits.

I think we have come to agree here, that a bone stock engine has it's limits, and they seem to be in the area of 450 RWHP. I got that RWHP, but I never broke 399 RWTQ, and this bothered me. Torque is what moves the car, so, when you "hit the wall" as I did, it's time to move the wall?

The only way to do that is to rebuild the bottom end, and I did. Thanks to countless hours of research with my friend John F. Russo (who I think hasn't read a word of my posts!) I ended up talking myself into this project. Taking the OEM engine down, checking specs and using the best of what was already in use from the factory and adding durable aftermarket goodies, boiled down to new pistons, connecting rods, crank, and attached accessories such as rings, bearings, gaskets, and the ARP stuff.

The rest is recycled OEM. The valves got a four angle seat treatment, but conservatively too. The heads were cleaned up, but not opened up. Cams, valves, springs, seals, ect. remained OEM, but are now tailored to their function. Compression was dropped about one point by adding a 14 cc dish to the 3 cc dish of the OEM piston. Yes, a professional engine builder with all the right technology, tools, AND experience is essential, but you can access this talent via mail order and over the 'net too. DSS and VT come to mind.

I kept the cost under 6400 bucks for my "drop-off, pick up, turn key" build, and it can be done cheaper if you do your own wrenching. But, either way, it's not that scary, nor that expensive of a mod for anyone who wants to own and race their MM with peace of mind.

Without changing anything more, I'm quite pleased with my results and I've graduated to the next level in power, albeit the lowest rung of that next ladder. I moved the wall, now I have the stronger bottom end we talk about so often here, just to discover that it's not hard for anyone to get that for themselves. What this means in terms of future growth needs to be explored, and I start the fine tuning next Tuesday with Lidio.

I expect a smaller pulley for more boost, and a larger MAF will "kick things up a notch" nicely. I have cam options to consider as well, when it's time. Nonetheless, I am on my way to the "600 at the rear wheels" John asked about last September, and it should be an exciting '05 Spring.

[Glenn]

Most interesting reading, great detail and a real inspiration to many of us. My modest goal with the MM is 302 RWHP and RWTQ. I should reach that soon. To even drive a MM with 600 RWHP is a dream you are making true. The best of luck and thanks again for the postings.

Glenn

[deerejoe]

>>>Joe...It's not my "dream engine," right now, but it could come to be that someday. My intent may have been set aside in the evolution of this thread, but my intent was to 1) look inside and see what (and how much) had worn from 20K miles of supercharged beating, and 2) build a solid engine with future potential on a budget.

>>>The MM engine assembly is quite durable. Nonetheless, there is a limit to what it can take, and what it can produce when you push it all to the limits.

>>>Torque is what moves the car, so, when you "hit the wall" as I did, it's time to move the wall?

>>>The only way to do that is to rebuild the bottom end.Taking the OEM engine down, checking specs and using the best of what was already in use from the factory and adding durable aftermarket goodies, boiled down to new pistons, connecting rods, crank, and attached accessories such as rings, bearings, gaskets, and the ARP stuff.

>>>The rest is recycled OEM. Yes, a professional engine builder with all the right technology, tools, AND experience is essential.

>>>I kept the cost under 6400 bucks for my "drop-off, pick up, turn key" build.

>>>I moved the wall, now I have the stronger bottom end we talk about so often here.

>>>Nonetheless, I am on my way to the "600 at the rear wheels" John asked about last September, and it should be an exciting '05 Spring.

SergntMac:
Thank you for the summation to date.
It is heartening to hear the OEM engine has the durability to withstand the many (select) modifications that are available to us.

Technology has made quantum leaps over these past years.
I come from a time when engines were more fragile when 'stretched' beyond their design parameters.
Now, with drag racers exceeding 300 + MPH in a mere 1320 feet and circle/circuit racing for mile upon mile of speed and endurance, today's I/C engine has evolved into a marvel of engineering genius.

'Dream' engines were the inspiration that pushed the envelope ever futher.
Garlit's, Force and countless others have been inspired to go to the wall and beyond to achieve their engine performance.
While I'm not anywhere prepared to launch such a dream...it is exciting to see those of you who do make the effort.
It demonstrates to all of us that the MM is a capable and worthy platform to indulge our personal fantasy's to any degree within our budgets.

The Maurader is a showcase of potential.
Few cars in recent memory have inspired such dedication from owners and vendor's.

I'm sure all of us share the excitement that you must feel standing at the threshold of this 'new' beginning.
You seem to have the grit of a true pioneer.
Hang in there!!

[STLR FN]

First:
Sorry for dredging up an old topic. I was searching for something else and this popped up.

Second:
Very informative and interesting read. I've been contemplating this option with my 2V 4.6 motor in my '98 F-150. The motor has 150K on it and starting to die a slow death. Hopefully I can get another 50-75K out of it before a rebuild.

In anycase, Thanks SergntMac for the read.