What about trannies?

[Dan]

Let's talke about trannies for a bit. I haven't seen a tranny thread here in quite a while and it seems that part of the reason most guys stop at less than 500 RWHP has to do with trannies and our internals.

Internals are another discussion. I would like to hear some thoughts on trannies.

To guide our conversation let't talk about tranny buildups that will handle 500+ RWHP. Let's talk about tranny tuners who know how to really bulletproof our 4R70Ws/ Let's talk about way to get rid of some of the gremlins like tranny confusion when doing burnouts into 2nd or 3rd gear.

I do hope to use this winter as a build up season for my car and having answers in this area will help.

Thanks.

Dan

[Petrograde]

Good idea Dan. :up: I'd like a bulletproof 4R70W. Maybe next year?

I don't know a hell of a lot about transmissions,.. so I'll keep an eye on this thread.

[MI2QWK4U]

Let's talke about trannies for a bit. I haven't seen a tranny thread here in quite a while and it seems that part of the reason most guys stop at less than 500 RWHP has to do with trannies and our internals.

Internals are another discussion. I would like to hear some thoughts on trannies.

To guide our conversation let't talk about tranny buildups that will handle 500+ RWHP. Let's talk about tranny tuners who know how to really bulletproof our 4R70Ws/ Let's talk about way to get rid of some of the gremlins like tranny confusion when doing burnouts into 2nd or 3rd gear.

I do hope to use this winter as a build up season for my car and having answers in this area will help.

Thanks.

Dan

Dan,
Some of the best info on the transmissions and buildups comes from Lidio, there was a great post on it recently. Lid is one of the most knowledgable guys in the field in building transmissions and fine tuning them. Check out the link, lots of good info there.

Lidio's Transmission Thread (http://mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=7491)

[MI2QWK4U]

Here are Lidios posts from that thread for us lazy folks in the group! Lots of experience and knowledge here, hope it helps...



Lidio 01-20-2004 04:26 PM

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4R70W Transmissions, My Experience & Thoughts with them...

There’s been quite a bit of talk lately (some of it misleading) around the current Over-Drive automatic known as the 4R70W that comes in the ’03 Marauder and I thought I would share some of my experience and insight.

I want to mention that I’ve been into putting Ford’s modern rear-drive automatics with overdrive in very powerful Street/Strip cars since the early 90’s. I started doing it when it wasn’t cool to have an AOD in a fast street Mustang. Everyone would throw away AOD’s while I was recommending keeping them and doing the right things to them to make them live behind some serious small block Ford’s in street cars. Every thing I’m about to say is pure experience…. And LOT’S of it with AOD’s, AOD-E’s and the current 4R70W.

Although we do not mail order our AOD’s and our name is not known nationally for doing one of the best AOD’s in the country, we consider our units and experience with them to be one of the best. We are not big on “mail ordering” a lot of our services because we found that mail order compromised our reputation due to poor self-installs and end user’s lack of competence on many occasions (not every one so please don’t be offended). We do mail order many components, but our SuperDuty AOD isn’t one of them. We require the install be done by us for any serious AOD work.

Some of the problems that a few have complained about have had the misfortune of a bad build of some kind from the factory, some kind of running change, something completely unexplained or could have been brought on themselves with mods or driving style.

All I know is that the 4R70W is one of the toughest automatics Ford has ever put into rear drive cars for small block applications. When this trans is treated to only minor upgrades, I believe (and have proven with my yellow coupe) it will hold up to well over 700+HP! I’ve put dozens of AOD-E’s and 4R70W’s behind 500+ RWHP cars for several years now.

The only problem with the specific 4R70W in the MM outside of bad luck at manufacturing is that it doesn’t shift hard enough at WOT for the 1-2 shift when a blower or something of that nature has been added. I’m talking like 125+HP more at the flywheel. I feel that the MM trans can shift very firm and positively behind a Marauder engine with just basic bolt-ons. I’ve found that through basic chip reprogramming the MM trans will hit very hard for the 1-2 shift and very hard for the 2-3 shift as well. Once this has been achieved there’s nothing more you need to do. It’s the sliding into gear during upshifts that causes problems and even that isnt the end of the world (I’ll get to that too). I basically tell all my customers with AOD-E’s and 4R70W’s that if you are abusive only in the first three gears and keep it out of overdrive when really horsing around, the AOD-E’s are pretty much indestructible. The overdrive can be weak because it uses a small band and not a clutch pack to apply OD. But outside of that they can handle more than most would have ever believed when they first started to come out a few years ago.

The Trilogy #1 car has had absolutely no trans problems at all with it’s original 4R70W. Immediately after installing the blower on the car I noticed that through CPU programming I could get the 3rd gear upshift to hit so hard that I backed it off some. But the 2nd gear upshift on the other hand was not positive and as firm as I would like even with the TV pressure adjustment maxed out with the chip tuning. Without mechanical intervention into the valve body, there just wasn’t any way to get a very firm shift. First, I removed the 2nd gear accumulator which dampens the 1-2 shift. This proved to not be enough - it didn’t hit from 1st to 2nd as hard as I thought it should but we left it that way on the #1 car for over 26,000 miles now. 26,000 very, very hard miles, abused and raced - even with a small amount of slip from 1st to 2nd (which I still don’t like) it hasn’t burnt anything up.

In the summer of 2000 just to prove to everyone how much a stock 4R70W and a stock, weak - pistoned ’96 32V Cobra motor could take, myself and a partner campaigned a ’91 Mustang LX. He owned the car and I owned the power train. It had a 23psi of boost, Vorteched ’96 32V Cobra motor that put the car into the mid 9’s in the ¼ mile at over 143mph!

The trans was a “used” unit (not even rebuilt) from a ‘98GT Mustang 4R70W that we were told had 20,000 miles on it. We got it for $300.00. All we did was put in a Performance-Automatic valve body that still let it shift automatically, but had a trans-brake feature and the ability to make the up-shifts much firmer. That’s all we did to it! No other mods to the core of the trans at all. The trans was shifted automatically with a stand-alone computer from a company called Baumann. This “used” trans went that whole summer of 2000 with over 110 mid 9 second passes on it without ever having one problem! The car weighed about 3200lbs with a driver. In fact when we took it out to have it gone through and looked at, the trans guy said “What am I doing with it, it looks OK inside?” This is where I really learned how much you could throw at a 4R70W.

We recently tried the mod posted here called the “J-mod” on a MM trans and we only modified what dealt with the 1-2 shift as I feel the 2-3 shift can be made overly firm at WOT with the chip programming. The J-mod does not raise mainline pressure. It only makes the accumulator work less or not at all. And the J-mod makes a few feed holes less restrictive. This J-mod was done to a MM trans that also got a 2nd gear clutch pack that was put together with better/high performance clutches, but no more then the original quantity of clutch’s was used - which is 4 clutches. Early, non V-8 and some V-8 AOD-E’s and 4R70W’s only had 3 clutches for 2nd gear. Upgrading those to four is second nature now.

When we got it running (the J-Moded car) the 1-2 shift was noticeably firmer than without the J-mod or the better clutches, but it is still not enough in my opinion. Although it is much, much better and can be let go, which we did. For a seriously banging 1-2 shift behind some serious power, I feel the MM’s needs a tried-and-true shift kit that alters main-line pressure as well as all the other little tricks in the valve-body.

What most of this long post is trying to say is that the internals of the MM trans do not need to be upgraded at all if the trans is properly “shift-kitted” while it still has low, unabused miles on it (baring any unforeseen factory flaws etc) and no drive-line vibrations. We have yet to install a full after-market shift kit in a MM to this day, because of how good they shift NA with just programming. And the way they shift from 1-2 even with a mild blower application seems to be OK as well but could use addressing.

I have found over the years that one of the biggest problems with the 4R70W’s and AOD-E’s is that they downshift very poorly and flare when going from 4th (OD) back to another gear like 3rd or 2nd from a role at high loads or near WOT when requesting the 4 to 3 or 4 to 2nd down shift. This 4th downshifting flare (with out making this post even longer) is not fixable. I’ve tried many things and tricks over the last few years and it won’t go away. When an AOD-E has to go from 4th back to any other gear, the OD band has to come off and the forward clutch has to come back on. This action has a delay that we can’t seem to fix no matter what we tried. It only becomes a problem and very noticeable when you’ve added significant power and torque to one of these transmissions. Basically what happens is for an instance when the trans goes back/downshifts from 4th under heavy load to 2nd or 3rd it flares into neutral then grabs 3rd or 2nd depending on the road speed and which gear is best suited for that down shift. What we found is that when this flare happens it is very rough on the input shaft and the 2nd gear “One-Way-Roller”. If the driver lets this condition occur enough while driving (and believe me it can be felt) it eventually hurts the second gear sprag (also known as the One-Way-Roller). Newer ones use a ratcheting mechanism not a conventional One-Way-Roller.

What I do on the cars that have lots of power added to them like a blower etc. is make efforts to program the chip so that it doesn’t so easily want to down shift from 4th at higher speeds and high throttle angles. Once a power adder has been installed they really can handle staying in 4th all the time at speeds over 60-70 unless the driver really woods the gas pedal. The way I program toque converters to stay unlocked at speeds under 60ish, they hardly ever need to down shift out of 4th at light loads just to pass other cars easily. This feels rather nice even when they don’t have a power adder. Just let the converter do what it’s meant to do - multiply torque.

In short if you made it this far reading this:
Firm up the shifts accordingly and keep an AOD-E or 4R70W out of OverDrive when you know you’re going to be very abusive and they are very reliable. To avoid the 4th down shift problem at highway speeds, I recommend to manually turn off OD while just beginning to mash the pedal and if you time it right it will begin to down shift from 4th before the power really comes on and the 4th downshift flare is not as noticble and wont damage the trans. Plus it takes lots of these type of 4th downshifting flares to do the damage.

If you made it this far…. Thanks for reading this!!

Just wanted to share some insight into and my experience with the 4R70W.

[MI2QWK4U]

The rest of those posts...



Lidio 01-20-2004 06:23 PM

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Deeper pans for me and AOD’s + 4R70W’s have been uncommon. With most applications when the converter is stock or some what tight and not super loose. Even when we run around with the converter unlocked most of the time on the street… the temps don’t seem to get out of hand and the capacity with the stock pan really seems to be enough. I’d say with a smaller/loser converter which will loose some capacity and run a hotter from greater slippage, a deeper pan and even larger external cooler would be some thing to consider.
Here at our shop when we do a looser converter like the Stallion in the Mustangs, we require a external supplemental cooler but not a deeper pan. This has proven to be very reliable.

Trilogy number 1 has no extra trans cooler and all the Torque converter non-locking street stuff I do and not one issue. I’ve monitored the trans temps on these through Auto-Tap and it hovers around 200-210 all the time. This is not a problem.

We did the J-Mod as described (accumulator springs and all on the more aggressive settings) but didn’t touch the 3rd and 4th stuff because they don’t need it. We found that through programming we could get all but the 1-2 shift very hard. On lower power applications, like a MM with no power-adder and just Bolt-On’s… I feel that the Valve body needs no tampering at all.
My MM hits very hard @ WOT right now with all the TV stuff just jacked-up through programming (never dropped the pan).
I’m not saying that the J-Mod isn’t cool. It’s in my opinion best suited to 4R70Ws that are at intermediate HP levels. On the local MM we did it too, it also got upgraded 2nd gear clutches as I stated earlier. This still didn’t make a super hard/positive 1-2 upshift, but expectable and much better then stock. It still could have used more of a boost in main-line pressure, which usually can only be done with spring changes in the valve-body with Shift-Kits.

We only use regular ATF’s here on all automatic transmissions with regular maintenance.
Synthetic ATF’s just cost to much and we never really found any thing substantial there. All of our results and experience has been with regular store bought ATF’s.


Thanks




Lidio 01-20-2004 10:21 PM

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OK

Before this gets into a “whose is bigger” thing, let me start off by saying that in no way did I say that Jerry the (J-Mod) guy doesn’t know his stuff!!

As my entire post started off saying…. This Is From EXPERIENCE with LOTS of MY OWN AOD’s, AOD-E’s, and 4R70W’s plus countless customers since the mid 90’s. This is not second hand info that I got from another forum or repeated hear-say. Honest hands-on. Take it for what it’s worth or don’t. This was not aimed at offending any one and their opinions, experiences or methods with the Ford rear drive Automatic-Overdrives I’m referring to.

The Trilogy kit started out as being a true bolt-on and still is. Only the #1 Trilogy MM got the 1-2 accumulator messed with. None of the other 11 or so we’ve installed for customers at our facility have had the accumulator touched.

Trilogy #1 is technically a test bed and different things where tried and tested as we went along. This is what a test bed is for. I wouldn’t say that any one was misled by anything here.

I feel that through programming I’ve achieved a good shift at WOT (with out a Valve-Body Mod) with the chip that comes with Trilogy kits. Yes I admit, like I said in my first post that the 1-2 shift is not as hard as I would like @ WOT, but if the Trilogy boost level is left stock they all seem to be fine. And if they have a 4.10 in the axle… this helps the 1-2 shift feel even better and crisper.

If the customer goes beyond the factory level of boost (at least with the Trilogy 9.5psi) and has many other things done as well to gain more HP, then some thought and consideration should be given to "Shift-Kitting" the trans or some thing of that nature. Although we’ve already installed smaller pulleys (for more Boost) on about 4 of the Trilogy customers and still haven’t modded their trans's in any way with no problems yet.

As far as I know all the Trilogy cars out there except for one local guy… none have had a trans problem that I know of. Unless they haven’t spoken up?

On my own MM… which starts to get the Trilogy treatment next week.
Here are my intensions;
I’m going to try to make as much boost as the Trilogy/Eaton will make (with-in the limits of 93 octane)
I will do a bigger 90mm MAF, Large Oval Throttle body and a K&N filter charger kit (Just the K&N thing is a proven 29 RWHP on the ’03 Cobra’s with no other mods, I couldn’t believe it, but I seen it) along with a smaller blower pulley. All this should get me about 13-15psi of boost. I’m leaving all of the stock exhaust alone for now because roots type blower equipped motors don’t gain tremendous amounts of power because these blowers tend to fall off at real high rpms when big exhaust really helps. Just ask ’03 Cobra and ’99 and up Lightning owners after they spend 1500.00 on complete exhaust systems, it’s usually only a gain of about 15-25 RWHP(I’m sure I’ll hear it about this one too). This is good and it is something worth mentioning and I will do some thing here eventually, but for me and my MM, I’m leaving all of the exhaust alone at first.
I already have 4.10’s. My goal is to go low, low 12’s in the ¼ mile like 12.10’s or so and then I have a 30-40 shot of NOS going on the car as well to try to get that 11 second number out of the car. I intend to do this with the stock 4R70W and a “Baumann” shift kit. (these shift kits are all I usually use with great success for many years now) I’m confident that the stock trans will live up to this for a while. After all I’ve gone 8.90’s with one in a ’93 Mustang coupe (780RWHP) this past summer and high 9’s in my 3450lbs Yellow ’88 LX (645 RWHP) for several years.

Thanks

[BlackHole]

I'm thinking of 4R100W out of a 2nd gen Lightning or at least the internals with a Stallion 2500 Stall TC should be good for 550 HP/750 Ft lbs

[Dan]

I'm thinking of 4R100W out of a 2nd gen Lightning or at least the internals with a Stallion 2500 Stall TC should be good for 550 HP/750 Ft lbs

This sounds very interesting. Please elaborate on this. Why do you think this will work? Is it a bolt on? Have you gotten and pricing?

Dan

[BlackHole]

Basicly the 5.4/4.6 shares almost anything except the connecting rods as the 4.6 is 3.55 inches and the 5.4 is 4.15 or 4.1XX (got to look it up but its longer.) The 4r100 is basicly a 4R70 with diesel internals. I've been around Johnny Lightning/JDM tuned Lightnings pushing almost 450 HP/600 Ft lbs. stock trannys but not on a stock engine. But from Ford Racing they want around $4000 for a new 4r100. It was built from the go for Forced induction but within limits anything over 16 PSI require Factory Tech Valve body and possably a newer higher stall TC. The 2000 Cobra R uses the same T56 tranny that the 03/04 Cobra uses except the R has a DOHC 5.4 and the Cobra a 4.6 DOHC S/C. So they well bolt up this is 1 of the reasons the 4.6/5.4 are knowned as Modular as they try and use as much parts interchangable as possable.

[Dan]

Thanks. $4K may be reasonable for a very high HP application.

Dan

[sailsmen]

We are on the 3rd 4r70W in our E150 w/ 55K miles.

I went with the Reinhart Trans, very reasonable and bullit proof.

Bascially he puts together the J Mod, J developed the 4r70W for Ford.

It consists of laser cut separator plates, carbon bands, strengthened stub, ect.

The cost is 25% less than what others are charging for a trans that is not as Bullit proof.

Proof 70+ runs at the track and 16K miles latter, still ****s like the day it was Bullit proofed. :D

[JACook]

The 4r100 is basicly a 4R70 with diesel internals.
Sorry, but the 4R100 internals have nothing in common with the 4R70.

The 4R100 traces it's ancestry back through the E4OD, and winds up with the C6.
In fact, the 4R100 wide-ratio planetary sets can be installed in a C6. This is what
comes in the M-7398-F wide-ratio gearset kit for the C6.

The 4R70W traces it's ancestry back through the AOD/AODE, and from there, back
to the FMX. The 4R70W gearset can be installed in an AOD, and is a very worthwhile
upgrade. The M-7398-D wide ratio gearset kit for the AOD uses production 4R70W parts.
(I rebuilt my '93 LX 5.0 AOD using a core 4R70W for it's guts.)

The 4R70W and 4R100 gear trains are nothing alike, and no parts will interchange.

[GordonB]

OK,
Now that we have thoroughly examined an '03 MM Tranny, can anyone shed more light on the 4R75W and its pitfalls/pluses in the '04 MM? I know my 04 has a different Torque Converter and drives, IMHO, much better than my 03 with a 4R70W. I also realize that much of the difference is NOT tranny, but engine calibrations and the dual knock sensors, etc.

GordonB

[JACook]

OK,
Now that we have thoroughly examined an '03 MM Tranny, can anyone shed more light on the 4R75W and its pitfalls/pluses in the '04 MM? I know my 04 has a different Torque Converter and drives, IMHO, much better than my 03 with a 4R70W. I also realize that much of the difference is NOT tranny, but engine calibrations and the dual knock sensors, etc.GordonB Well, we can start by looking at what's different between a 4R70W and a 4R75W.
AFAIK, the only difference is the torque converter, and the addition of a turbine speed sensor.
(And of course, the remapped shift strategy that this allows.)

I'd be interested to hear about the driveability differences between the '03 and '04 MMs from your
perspective. I drove an '04 before buying Blue, and the only thing I really noticed is that Blue seems
to be a bit more abrupt when taking off from a dead stop. It's kinda tricky to get a smooth take off.
But I don't know if that's common to '03s in general, or just something mine does. The OASIS report
does show the converter and rear gears were replaced under warranty, but I don't know if the abrupt
take off had anything to do with either of these repairs.

[SergntMac]

Well, we can start by looking at what's different between a 4R70W and a 4R75W. AFAIK, the only difference is the torque converter, and the addition of a turbine speed sensor. (And of course, the remapped shift strategy that this allows.) I'd be interested to hear about the driveability differences between the '03 and '04 MMs from your perspective. I drove an '04 before buying Blue, and the only thing I really noticed is that Blue seems to be a bit more abrupt when taking off from a dead stop. It's kinda tricky to get a smooth take off. But I don't know if that's common to '03s in general, or just something mine does. The OASIS report does show the converter and rear gears were replaced under warranty, but I don't know if the abrupt take off had anything to do with either of these repairs.
Good post, JA, thanks for the 411.

I'm sure the 4R75W got a gear change too, though not a remarkable change. Can you confirm this?

I have that "abruptness" in low powered launches. It feel like a split second lag between throttle tip in and tranny reaction. It's been there for so long, and through a professional rebuild, I have learned to live with it.

[JACook]

I'm sure the 4R75W got a gear change too, though not a remarkable change. Can you confirm this?
Well, I'm not completely sure about too many things, but I don't believe this is true. Part of the problem
is the 4R75Ws are all still pretty much on warranty, so not too many people outside Ford have got their
hands on the innards yet. But everything I have been able to find says the gearset is the same as the
4R70W - 2.84 1.55 1.00 and 0.70 - but with all the latest durability enhancements like the mechanical
diode and such.

If Dennis or someone has had these gearsets out side-by-each, I'd really like to know for sure myself.

For the time being, I'm sayin' the performance improvements in the '04 MM are all in the ECU and torque
converter.


I have that "abruptness" in low powered launches. It feel like a split second lag between throttle tip in and tranny reaction. It's been there for so long, and through a professional rebuild, I have learned to live with it. Yeah, that's the one. Kinda makes it hard to be smooth but quick off the line. I'm used to being
able to just roll into the throttle and make a quick getaway. Guess I just need to keep practicing.
So, what I'm hearing is, "they all do that" eh? :-) Do the 4.11s make this better or worse?

[Dan]

Hey, this thread hijacking has to stop. :)

Back to the 4R70W...

Regarding the "J-mod", how much HP will it stand up to? Does Dennis give it a rating? I am interested in HP applications that are higher than what folks ard typically doing with the Vortechs/Eaton.

Does anyone know what the 4R100W will stand up to at it's max?

Thank.

Dan

[SergntMac]

Regarding the "J-mod", how much HP will it stand up to? Does Dennis give it a rating? I am interested in HP applications that are higher than what folks ard typically doing with the Vortechs/Eaton. Thank. DanI've pull 455 RWHP, 399 RWTQ from my KB Marauder S, Vortech blower, 9.5 PSI. I lost the factory tranny build to the OD thingy, and it was rebuilt by Jerry W. over a year ago now. Jerry said the tranny is good through 500 RWHP, and I beat on it pretty good without any tranny problems. OTOH, when you reach for the big power (like 450 isn't enough) I'm sure your going to be reaching for a stouter tranny.

[Dan]

Sarge

Thanks. I want to reach for "the big power" to be quite honest with you. :) 455 will be nice but I think that I want something that will require an SCCA license to drive. :)

Dan

[BillyGman]

oh, what about "Trannies" you said.......I thought you said what about Grannys...

[BillyGman]

I went with the Reinhart Trans, very reasonable and bullit proof.

Bascially he puts together the J Mod, J developed the 4r70W for Ford.

It consists of laser cut separator plates, carbon bands, strengthened stub, ect.

But the "J-mod" is nothing more than pulling out the plate, and opening up some of the holes several thousandths of an inch bigger with the proper sized drill bit. And that method was devised by Jerry W. (thus the "J" mod). So how is it that Dennis Reinhart's kit is being sold as "the J-mod"? Am I reading you right?

[sailsmen]

There is the JMod which is limited to the Valve Body.

My trans has the following;
Valve Body JMod, JMod seperator plates laser cut
JMod Forced lube tailshaft
Spiral Lock Clip
Additional Carbon Bands / Clutches
Hardened Stub Shaft.

Read the JMod Bullet Proof Trans article at TOCA. Jerry W talks about several weak points and adding clutches ect. Dennis does not call it a JMod trans kit, those are my words.

There is also a separate article limited to the Valve Body JMod.

To answer your question, no you are not reading it right.

[the_pack_rat]

I think they're UN-natural freaks of nature myself.

[BillyGman]

Dennis does not call it a JMod trans kit those are my words.
Thankyou for clarifying that. Because I have read that article that you spoke of a long time ago, and in fact I have it saved on my PC and I've also printed it out, and the only "J" mod that it describes does NOT require the addition of any new parts at all. I've also read posts that were made on another board by this man Jerry himself, and he had stated clearly that as long as you don't take the rear wheel HP level over 430, then the transmission is fine. He also cautioned people to be careful about which shift kits they choose (if any at all) because some of them on the market aren't good for the durability of these transmissions, because some shift kits will actually help to destroy it. Although I do realize that it isn't a shift kit that you're speaking of, I'm simply passing that info along here, and I'm not debating with you, nor am I saying that it's neccessarily wrong for anyone to purchase new and upgraded parts for these transmissions. ;)

[BillyGman]

I think they're UN-natural freaks of nature myself.
Oh, you mean Grannys? :D

[sailsmen]

Unfortunately we have had 2 trans replacements in our E150 Traveler in 50K miles, it only hauls around my wife and 2 small children.

Fortunately I bought the extended warranty. :)

Based on this experience I am pleased I got the MM trans modified/rebuilt for less than 1/2 the cost of what the dealer charges.

[MENINBLK]

... To guide our conversation let't talk about tranny buildups that will handle 500+ RWHP....

Dan,

Transmissions are always rated in Torque, not Horsepower.

I don't want to hijack the thread or start a debate on HP vs. TQ,
but when you read the specs on trannies, the ratings are in maximum TQ applied.

[BillyGman]

Dan,

Transmissions are always rated in Torque, not Horsepower.

I don't want to hijack the thread or start a debate on HP vs. TQ,


Start a "debate"? On here? I cannot imagine that ever happening. :D

[Dennis Reinhart]

Let's talke about trannies for a bit. I haven't seen a tranny thread here in quite a while and it seems that part of the reason most guys stop at less than 500 RWHP has to do with trannies and our internals.

Internals are another discussion. I would like to hear some thoughts on trannies.

To guide our conversation let't talk about tranny buildups that will handle 500+ RWHP. Let's talk about tranny tuners who know how to really bulletproof our 4R70Ws/ Let's talk about way to get rid of some of the gremlins like tranny confusion when doing burnouts into 2nd or 3rd gear.

I do hope to use this winter as a build up season for my car and having answers in this area will help.

Thanks.

Dan
Dan its called a stage 2 Transmission kit

Every S/C kit I have sold I have always recommended a transmission upgrade, I have Art Car make a kit for my company it comes with the forced lube circuit all the extra clutches and plates all the instructions and dill bits to modify the valve body, it also has a hardened stub shaft, no one that I know of has had a failure after installing this kit, by a knowledgeable transmission mechanic, I have these kits in two Marauders making over 500 RWP so this is 600 HP to the flywheel, I have one Marauder that made 587 RWHP and the transmission is rock solid.

[BillyGman]

Perhaps I'm getting this wrong, but I thought that Zack's transmission had this kit installed, and it went a second time. That was my understanding, but perhaps I'm mistaking about that. Anyone with more info on Zack's transmission, please feel free to jump in. Zack...are you out there?????

[SergntMac]

Zack's first transmission failure occured simultaneous with mine, during our road trip to Ennis for MV-I, September 2003. Both trannys were bone stock and were diagnosed and rebuilt by Jerry W. The parts list from that became the foundation for the mod/repair kit Dennis now retails.

I do not recall Zack's tranny breaking a second time. However, he did pull it for a converter stall upgrade, and while it was out, he went through everything a second time. I don't recall any parts needing replacement, but he may have refreshed clutch packs. This was just a few months ago, right about the time the first tranny rebuild turned a year old. Considering the punishment that tranny endures, and the performance it provides, inspection and refreshment seems appropriate. I'll probably do mine in the spring.

[TripleTransAm]

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=12172&highlight=transmission

[Dennis Reinhart]

Zack's first transmission failure occured simultaneous with mine, during our road trip to Ennis for MV-I, September 2003. Both trannys were bone stock and were diagnosed and rebuilt by Jerry W. The parts list from that became the foundation for the mod/repair kit Dennis now retails.

I do not recall Zack's tranny breaking a second time. However, he did pull it for a converter stall upgrade, and while it was out, he went through everything a second time. I don't recall any parts needing replacement, but he may have refreshed clutch packs. This was just a few months ago, right about the time the first tranny rebuild turned a year old. Considering the punishment that tranny endures, and the performance it provides, inspection and refreshment seems appropriate. I'll probably do mine in the spring.
Exactly Mac as I stated I know of know one that has had a failure once the proper upgrades are done, I recommend a knowledgeable transmission mechanic with AODE/4R70W experience.

Zack did the build himself I applaud him for this,
Any one can go out and piece the parts together and do this themselves or they can buy a complete kit with all the hardware and the drill bits and some instructions, but again its not a job for a novice.

[BillyGman]

Thanks for the info guys, and especially for that Link Steve. :2thumbs:


So I guess the intermediate clutch packs on Zack's transmission didn't look very good either. Perhaps this just goes along with what many people say that automatic transmissions just cannot be made to be as durable as manual trnsmissions are for high HP applications. I't my understanding though that it depends just how high that you go with the HP and TQ.

[gonzo50]

Zack's first transmission failure occured simultaneous with mine, during our road trip to Ennis for MV-I, September 2003. Both trannys were bone stock and were diagnosed and rebuilt by Jerry W. The parts list from that became the foundation for the mod/repair kit Dennis now retails.

I do not recall Zack's tranny breaking a second time. However, he did pull it for a converter stall upgrade, and while it was out, he went through everything a second time. I don't recall any parts needing replacement, but he may have refreshed clutch packs. This was just a few months ago, right about the time the first tranny rebuild turned a year old. Considering the punishment that tranny endures, and the performance it provides, inspection and refreshment seems appropriate. I'll probably do mine in the spring.

I have a question about how to correct a false second gear change that occurrs on my trasmission. Is this something that can be corrected by the dealer? Would a chip change correct this? If so, which chip is the better one for this plus a decent retune of the engine?
Thanks,
Mike

My car does this, I have changed the shift points in the computer, changed driving styles, rebuilt the trans, rebuilt it again, and it still does it.
Im not worried about it, just a little annoying.
Zack does state that he did rebuilt the trans. a second time, but like SergntMac says, a refreshment seems appropriate considering the punishment that tranny endures.