cd changer vs i pod

[AJAX]

my 03 didnt come with a cd changer i am considdering a i pod for christmas. have of you seen these interface modules to make your cd changer controlls work your ipod. only ones i have seen state they work with alpine or sony head .i just dont want anymore wires. i allready have a radar detector on the dash.

[Dr Caleb]

What you want is over here:

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=13587

[fastblackmerc]

I took out my factory 6-CD changer and replaced it with 12-CD changer from JVC. Took about 60 minutes of work "fixing" the factory bracketry and cover to make it work, another 60 minutes to run the one cable up to the front of the car and hook it up. Unit has a FM modulator, a small control unit and a remote. Mine is an older unit so it will only play .wav files, the newer ones play .wav & MP3's.

[Mad4Macs]

CD changer = 10, maybe 15 songs per cd x 6 cd's
iPod = all 330 of my cd's, and much more room to add more.
You do the math ;-)

[SouLRioT]

I use an Ipod for my MP3 playing in my car using the tape deck. But if you've got deep pockets check this out: http://www.phatnoise.com/products/digitalmediaplayers/mercury.php

More than likely you'd have to get the wireharness for the cd changer, and then this product. But this is not cheap at all, you can but a New 60 GB Ipod Photo and a 20 GB Ipod for almost the same cost.

[AJAX]

thanks for the link. i think the ipod is the way to go i have 4 vehicles 2 have tape players. if i had a cd changer i think i would forever be reloading it most cds only have a few good tunes on it unless you burn your own. thanks again.


I use an Ipod for my MP3 playing in my car using the tape deck. But if you've got deep pockets check this out: http://www.phatnoise.com/products/digitalmediaplayers/mercury.php

More than likely you'd have to get the wireharness for the cd changer, and then this product. But this is not cheap at all, you can but a New 60 GB Ipod Photo and a 20 GB Ipod for almost the same cost.

[MENINBLK]

CD changer = 10, maybe 15 songs per cd x 6 cd's
iPod = all 330 of my cd's, and much more room to add more.
You do the math ;-)


Yea, and all of your 330 albums get listed as TRACK 01, TRACK 02, TRACK 03, etc...

What good is that ? You can find yourself a good CD Changer that support 12 discs and MP3s and have over 150 tracks on each CD.
The display for the CD Changer would read the ID3 tags of the MP3s, and display the Album, Artist, and Track title for ya.
Something even the 4TH GENERATION iPod can't do...

APPLE - THINK DIFFERENT... :bs:

[MENINBLK]

I use an Ipod for my MP3 playing in my car using the tape deck. But if you've got deep pockets check this out: http://www.phatnoise.com/products/digitalmediaplayers/mercury.php

More than likely you'd have to get the wireharness for the cd changer, and then this product. But this is not cheap at all, you can but a New 60 GB Ipod Photo and a 20 GB Ipod for almost the same cost.

The PhatNoise looks like a very good solution.

A few years ago there was a product called the EMPEG Car Radio.
It was a Linux box with a 100GB Hard Drive, Linux Based PC, and an AM/FM Radio.
The company was bought out by the S3 owned, SonicBlue (who bought over the Diamond RIO Product family
from Diamond Multimedia), and they then squashed the EMPEG product.
It was a really cool product that had an ethernet port in the back of the radio.
It mounted inside a Benzi-Box so you could pull it out and connect it to your PC and download your MP3 tunes to it.

Too bad SonicBlue squashed it. They were a bunch of As**s for doing that.
The product would have taken off and made a tremendous amout of $$$ for them.

[telson]

Once my second mp3 player broke, I decided that I'd had enough of them. I accidentally dropped the first one after a year (carrying it in and out of the car frequently, I suppose it was bound to happen eventually) and the second one stopped for no discernable reason.

Doesn't an iPod use a hard disk? Do they bounce well?

So now, I prefer a CD player that can play mp3 files. One CD can hold about 10 hours of music. The SlimX iMP-350 that I have goes for around $70 on eBay nowadays, which would leave you $200+ to spend on something else:
http://cgi.ebay.com/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&item=5735274228
(I don't know anything about this specific listing, it just has some good pics)


Alternatively, a more elegant solution would be, as MenInBlk suggests, get the mp3-capable CD player.

But, if you really want an mp3 jukebox, don't forget that Dell and Creative Labs also make them.

[MENINBLK]

But, if you really want an mp3 jukebox, don't forget that Dell and Creative Labs also make them.

Actually, among the two you mention, only Creative Labs makes them.
The Dell DJ is a Zen Xtra in disguise...

[SouLRioT]

Yea, and all of your 330 albums get listed as TRACK 01, TRACK 02, TRACK 03, etc...

What good is that ? You can find yourself a good CD Changer that support 12 discs and MP3s and have over 150 tracks on each CD.
The display for the CD Changer would read the ID3 tags of the MP3s, and display the Album, Artist, and Track title for ya.
Something even the 4TH GENERATION iPod can't do...

APPLE - THINK DIFFERENT... :bs:

MENINBLK, where did you get this info from? As long as your connected to the internet while your ripping the songs, your ripper should get the tags and the IPod will see them. The IPod, like I'm sure others can do, allowes you to search by Album, Artist, and genre of music. I'm not going to say the IPod is better than all the others, since I haven't owned them all or seen them, but it does do this feature.


Doesn't an iPod use a hard disk? Do they bounce well?

It has a 20 min, yes 20 min skip feature in it. And I've dropped mine a few times.

[MENINBLK]

MENINBLK, where did you get this info from? As long as your connected to the internet while your ripping the songs, your ripper should get the tags and the IPod will see them. The IPod, like I'm sure others can do, allowes you to search by Album, Artist, and genre of music. I'm not going to say the IPod is better than all the others, since I haven't owned them all or seen them, but it does do this feature.

Yes the iPod ITSELF does this, as so do all of the other Digital Audio Players.
The Kit that allows you to connect your iPod to your radio and control the iPod through the remote DOES NOT.
I've seen the kit and I've seen it installed.
The ID3 tag info is not transferred to the display.


It has a 20 min, yes 20 min skip feature in it. And I've dropped mine a few times.

The 20 min skip feature you mention is actually a 16MB buffer on the Hard drive.
If you INCREASE or DECREASE your recording resolution, the time buffer will DECREASE or INCREASE accordingly.
So to say you have a 20 min buffer is actually incorrect.

It may be 20 minutes for the resolution of the Digital Audio you have loaded,
but if you increase the resolution to get HIGHER QUALITY audio playback,
it will increase the size of the Digital Audio file, decrease the time of the buffer,
and also decrease the number of files you can store on the Digital Audio player.

The opposite is true if you DECREASE the resolution of the Digital Audio file.
It makes the Audio quality really poor, but you get to fit MORE songs in the same amount of space!

The resolution is expressed in Kilobits per second (kbps).
The average Digital Audio file in an MP3 format is okay at 128 kbps.
Less than this reduces the file size and reduces the audio playback quality.
You can go as high as 320kbps on the MP3 format, and you will get a considerably larger file,
but the audio playback will rival CD Audio Quality.

There is also a VARIABLE MP3 resolution that will trade off resolution for quality when necessary.
It works really well and gives you the best size for the optimum quality playback.

Other formats work in similar ways, and have different resolutions and file sizes,
but the resolutions are almost always labele in kbps.

Oh, and just so you know, every time you drop it you have a 50% higher chance it will crash on the next impact.
1st time 50%
2nd time 75%
3rd time 87.5%

So consider yourself lucky if it is still working okay...

[DEFYANT]

I've been using the iRiver iHP-120. It has 20 gig storage. I'll never fill it. I copied my cds to it with windows media player that automaticaly found the cd info from the net. The complete cd with artist and track titles are downloaded. I've had it for about 2months now and haven't had aproblem with it.

I even managed to copy the audio from a dvd concert that wasnt released on cd. I cant skip the songs and dont have track titles, but it works and I'm quite happy.

[studio460]

My $0.02:

IMHO, MP3 files are pretty low fidelity. If you've ever heard an MP3 on a good system, you can definitely tell. Decent .WAV files at 44.1kHz/16-bit or Red Book CD Audio (regular CDs) files are far better. As a compromise, I prefer MiniDisc, which is compressed 5:1.

[Directedby]

Yea, and all of your 330 albums get listed as TRACK 01, TRACK 02, TRACK 03, etc...

What good is that ? You can find yourself a good CD Changer that support 12 discs and MP3s and have over 150 tracks on each CD.
The display for the CD Changer would read the ID3 tags of the MP3s, and display the Album, Artist, and Track title for ya.
Something even the 4TH GENERATION iPod can't do...

APPLE - THINK DIFFERENT... :bs:

NOT TRUE - All 1,100 of my songs, album names, artist and genre are listed.

[Directedby]

I have a 12 disc player in trunk and my IPOD is hooked directly into system.

The quality between the CD's and IPOD are indistinguishable.

[JACook]

My $0.02:

IMHO, MP3 files are pretty low fidelity. If you've ever heard an MP3 on a good system, you can definitely tell. Decent .WAV files at 44.1kHz/16-bit or Red Book CD Audio (regular CDs) files are far better. As a compromise, I prefer MiniDisc, which is compressed 5:1. FWIW, the iPod supports Apple Lossless Compression format, which I believe is similar to MiniDisc,
but of course, the iPod holds a whole lot more tunes than a MiniDisc. :-) And NB, MP3 can have pretty
decent fidelity if you're willing to devote the additional disk space. 256K bit rate sounds a whole lot better
than 128K. iTunes supports ripping up to 320K bit rate.

One of the many hats I wear is in pro audio, and I've demo'd some pretty high-end systems using my
iPod for the signal source, using both high-rate MP3s and ALC.


Yes the iPod ITSELF does this, as so do all of the other Digital Audio Players.
The Kit that allows you to connect your iPod to your radio and control the iPod through the remote DOES NOT.
I've seen the kit and I've seen it installed.
The ID3 tag info is not transferred to the display.
The only issue I'll take with your comments is that you seem to be incorrectly blaming Apple for this.
The information is there, and available, if the interface box and head unit choose to display it. BMWs have
been available for a while now with a factory iPod interface that's well integrated. Whatever your
issues with Apple, IMO, this one's not their fault.

I will add my vote to the others suggesting an iPod or other iPod-like device instead of the CD changer.
My '03 MM has the changer, but I can't honestly say I know if it even works or not. In a past vehicle, I used
to keep three CD cartridges at the ready for road trips, but now I get to keep a whole lot more, and don't
ever have to fumble with changing the carts (which would be a REAL trick with the MM's trunk-mount).
On a recent trip to Germany, we put about 2700KM on our rental car, and it was so nice to have a reliable
source of tunes for both the rental car, and hotel room. I had the iPod set to shuffle, and never heard the
same tune twice over a 3-week trip. And it all fit in my shirt pocket. For someone like me who travels
a lot, and has a pretty large CD collection, this thing has been a Godsend.

In the MM, I use a cassette adapter and it works just fine. The iPod is in the cup holder if I need to see
what tune is playing. I will comment that FM modulators, whether for iPod or CD changer, are less than
ideal. At it's best, FM is way poorer quality audio than CD, and I've yet to see an FM modulator that is
anywhere near FM at it's best.


Oh, and just so you know, every time you drop it you have a 50% higher chance it will crash on the next impact.
1st time 50%
2nd time 75%
3rd time 87.5%

So consider yourself lucky if it is still working okay...
Not sure where this is documented, but I can say my son's empirical testing does not bear this out.
My day job is regional hardware tech support for a VeryLarge purveyor of disc storage, so I do understand
discs don't like to be dropped, but I don't necessarily agree with your assertion. NB, there are far too
many factors that influence their susceptibility to damage to go into in this forum, so I'll leave it with the
empirical for now.

[MENINBLK]

NOT TRUE - All 1,100 of my songs, album names, artist and genre are listed.

On your iPod's display.
Not the Auto Accessory kit display...

Here are some Automotive kits for the iPod...
These use the iPod as the controller, and the display,
like a Cellular Hands Free kit does.

Dension ICE-Link 1.1 (http://www.ipodlounge.com/reviews_more.php?id=4665_0_6_0 _M)
Dension ICE-Link Auto Integration Kit... (http://www.ipodlounge.com/reviews_more.php?id=2692_0_6_0 _M)
DLO TransPod (http://www.ipodlounge.com/reviews_more.php?id=948_0_6_0_ M)
DLO New TransPod FM (for Dock Connector iPods) (http://www.ipodlounge.com/reviews_more.php?id=4867_0_6_0 _M)
Griffin RoadTrip All-in-One Car Solution (http://www.ipodlounge.com/reviews_more.php?id=4733_0_6_0 _M)

These are intergrated and controlled by your Radio/CD Changer.
We've all see the BMW kit so I won't bother linking to it here.
The Alpine is the only one that displays ID3 info on the radio display...
Denison ICE-Link PLUS (http://www.dension.com/main.php?pageid=50&topid=42)
Quoted from the review - Best of all, in playlist mode, the iPod display is used
to display artist, album and song data right on your iPod!
Alpine KCA-420i iPod Interface (http://playlistmag.com/reviews/2004/09/alpineipod/index.php/?lsrc=mcrss-0904)
Quoted from review - If you currently have a compatible Alpine head unit,
the $100 cost of the KCA-420i will be money well spent.
If not, keep in mind that you'll need to first purchase (and install)
a new head unit, which will run anywhere from $200 to $2,300
plus installation costs.

[GarageMahal]

My $0.02:

IMHO, MP3 files are pretty low fidelity. If you've ever heard an MP3 on a good system, you can definitely tell. Decent .WAV files at 44.1kHz/16-bit or Red Book CD Audio (regular CDs) files are far better. As a compromise, I prefer MiniDisc, which is compressed 5:1.

I agree with you about the sound quality of MP3s. I use the Rio Karma and have my tunes encoded in FLAC format. FLAC is lossless and sounds as good as CD. Granted the file sizes are large due to the 2:1 average compression but I can still get about 80 albums on the 20Gig Rio.

jta

[MENINBLK]

FWIW, the iPod supports Apple Lossless Compression format, which I believe is similar to MiniDisc

Doesn't the MIni Disc use ATRAC compression ? :dunno:


One of the many hats I wear is in pro audio, and I've demo'd some pretty high-end systems using my iPod for the signal source, using both high-rate MP3s and ALC.

Have you been able to find the playback specs of an iPod ?
Apple doesn't publish them and everyone else does.
There is nothing to compare the playback quality specs to
except each individual's listening tastes.


The only issue I'll take with your comments is that you seem to be incorrectly blaming Apple for this.
The information is there, and available, if the interface box and head unit choose to display it.
BMWs have been available for a while now with a factory iPod interface that's well integrated.
Whatever your issues with Apple, IMO, this one's not their fault.

Before you start pointing fingers or trying to justify why,
I think you need to speak to a few people who actually develop,
or tried to develop software products for Apple.
When you've heard what Apple demands of the developer,
and what their licensing fees are, you'll understand why there are lots of shortcomings
when it comes to third party products that support ANY Apple products.

Have you wondered why Apline is one of the first to have full integration and not BELKIN or any other manufacturer ?
Support for the player functions, and building in a battery charger connection is the easy part.
Retrieving the ID3 info is another ball of wax, and Apple's wax is very sticky...

I do not have any issues with the iPod family of products.
They are good products, but incomparison to their competition,
they should be MUCH BETTER than they are,
for the price that Apple wants for them.

[JACook]

Have you been able to find the playback specs of an iPod ?
Apple doesn't publish them and everyone else does.
There is nothing to compare the playback quality specs to
except each individual's listening tastes.
Well, this is probably gonna go against some peoples' religious beliefs, but IMO, a lot of the specs out
in the audio space are pretty meaningless. Specs are all about marketing, and getting people to spend
money on stuff that doesn't matter, in the mistaken belief that their golden ears can tell a difference.

The Audio Engineering Society, and it's individual members, have conducted several double-blind studies that
underline the fallacy of relying on specs. Did'ya know that some of the best ears in the business couldn't tell
the difference between high-end speaker cables and 12-2 Romex? Or that these same people chose welding rod
over $500.00 gold-plated, oxygen free, superfine Litz wire interconnects? Anyone remember the "CD stabilzer
rings" and markers? At the risk of being called a thread hijacker, I'll leave it at that.


Before you start pointing fingers or trying to justify why,
I think you need to speak to a few people who actually develop,
or tried to develop software products for Apple.
When you've heard what Apple demands of the developer,
and what their licensing fees are, you'll understand why there are lots of shortcomings
when it comes to third party products that support ANY Apple products. OK, you got me there, 'cause I don't do any development work. I'm a hardware guy. But I was present
at the birth of the IBM PC, and still work for it's creator, so I'm not totally in the dark about the constant
battle between developers and the companies that own the platform that the developers are trying to develop for.

And, being's as I currently use both PCs and Macs, and a few other things besides, I'm well aware of the difference
in philosophies between, say, Apple and Microsoft. Again, I don't wanna be held in contempt of the thread gods, or
get embroiled in a religious discussion, and like I said, I'm a hardware guy. But.

From the perspective of the end-user, I can see the negatives you speak of, but also appreciate the postitives.
Apple, in stark contrast with it's competitors, closely guards the user experience. As a developer, you may not
appreciate Apple requiring developers to toe the Apple line. As a user, I couldn't be happier.

When I bought a Griffin iTrip FM transmitter for my iPod, I plugged it in and it worked. Software? Drivers? Nope.
All's I needed was to load the tuning files into my iTunes library. Same time, I also bought a Belkin Digital Camera
Link for the iPod. Plugged it in, pushed a button, and I had digital pix in my iPod. Again, no software, no drivers.
When I'm out and about, I effectively have 40G of storage for my digital camera.

Whatever knocks anyone may have against Apple, the user experience is about as good as they come.
And this from a Guy who bleeds Blue. (Then again, there's more IBM hardware in a G5 than in any PC, but
that's another rant for another time.) :-)


Have you wondered why Apline is one of the first to have full integration and not BELKIN or any other manufacturer ?
Support for the player functions, and building in a battery charger connection is the easy part.
Retrieving the ID3 info is another ball of wax, and Apple's wax is very sticky...
OK, but I should think that, at least in the case of a head unit, a third (fourth?) party such as Belkin would be
at the disadvantage of having to deal with both Apple, _and_ the manufacturer of the head unit, no?


I do not have any issues with the iPod family of products.
They are good products, but incomparison to their competition,
they should be MUCH BETTER than they are,
for the price that Apple wants for them. Well, I dunno. If we compare apples with Apples, so to speak, I don't think they are that much more.
To be sure, you're paying for the cool factor, and for what I believe is, hands-down, the best UI.

But beyond that, once you weed out the tinkertoy memory-only players, a 4G iPod mini isn't much more
than a 4G Creative Muvo. Factor in iTunes, iTunes music store, ALC, and the way-cool AirTunes wireless
base that's streaming Christmas music from my IBM ThinkPad as I type this, and for me it's no contest.
Firefox even lets me control iTunes (or whatever player I choose to use) from the browser window.

Like I said, for me, it's all about the user experience. Maybe I should be more sympathetic to developers,
but I tend to believe there are at least two sides to every conflict.

One other thing that bears pointing out-
I've been an iPod user since 2001. Where were the other guys back then? Seems to be a consistent theme...

[telson]

I've been using the iRiver iHP-120. It has 20 gig storage.
Ah, iRiver, that's the same company that made my SlimX, which I've been very happy with (in terms of presenting the ID3 tag info, usability, etc.)

If I ever get a jukebox, I'd probably go with iRiver again.

[SouLRioT]

This thread has go astray, but still very informitive. Thank you for all your insites Jeff, and I understand what your saying MENINBLK, but your stating compaints about the head unit more than the player. Hopefuly in a few years when I'm ready to maybe upgrade my head unit I'll finaly beable to have a full computer easily installed in as my head unit, and at a reasonable price.

[DEFYANT]

I have been using the iRiver for about 6 weeks now. I just uploaded my christmas cds to it. I have used the fm modulator and the cass. adaptor. I think the cass. adaptor has better sound quality except for the little rattle that the player makes when "playing" the dummy tape.

I would really like to hook in with a line - in adaptor....

[MENINBLK]

One other thing that bears pointing out-
I've been an iPod user since 2001. Where were the other guys back then? Seems to be a consistent theme...

I really don't want to do this but I have to set history straight here...
This will be my last off-topic post but it is informative and everyone here should know this...

I don't know where you were in 1997, but back then, Diamond Multimedia came out with the RIO Digital Audio player after
Creative Labs came out with the NOMAD Digital Audio Player.
(This is 4+years BEFORE the first iPod was ever born...)

The only reason you **may** remember this, is because the RIAA took Diamond Multimedia to court over its RIO product,
(Recording Industry Association of America)
basically because it didn't support Secure Music.
Creative, being a member of the SDMI Forum (Secure Digital Music Initiative),
had its products reviewed by the RIAA, got their approval, and dodged the litigation bullet.

By the time Apple showed up on the field, Creative already had made several Flash based Digital Audio players,
as well as a few Hard drive based Digital Audio players.
One of which had the ability to record audio through a Optical SP/DIF interface.
The Creative Nomad II and the Creative Nomad II MG were THE most popular Flash Based Digital Audio players
before the Creative Nomad MuVo was introduced.

Diamond has also had several Flash Based players before the RIO Audio division was purchased by S3, and renamed to SONIC BLUE.
And Sonic Blue went belly up, and the whole Rio Audio product line is now owned by Digital Networks NA,
as well as owning Replay TV, Escient, Denon, Marantz, and McIntosh.
http://www.rioaudio.com

There are also a host of other companies that were here before Apple was also like...
iRiver, Sony, Panasonic, TDK, Samsung, to name just a few...

Were you aware of all this, or were you too busy watching the Apple iPod commercials in 2001 ???

And what about flexibility ?
After you bought your current vehicle, did you also return to the delaership to buy FUEL for it ???
Well Apple thinks that iPod users are going to get all of their media for their iPods from iTunes and iThis and iThat...
You can continually give all of your money to APPLE, including when you have to renew your iTunes license every year
even when you don't UPGRADE...

All of the other Digital Audio players in the world work with SEVERAL applications,
allowing you to get your media from an assortment of different places,
as long as the media sources fit your needs, and without additional expenses.

And I don't know why you think that specifications of a product are marketing hype.
Being a HARDWARE person, this doesn't sound right coming from you at all...
I am a hardware guy also. I have an education in Microprocessors, Microcomputers, and Electrical Engineering.
I can play hardware with the best of them!

The SPECS of the Marauder are true aren't they ???
Are they marketing tools, sure, but ONLY of they are true.
If they aren't true, you'll have the FCC to deal with, and that can cost you enough grief,
to put a serious dent in any companies cash flow, enough to make them go bankrupt...

If you don't have any good specs, do you talk about them, of course not.
You want to draw attention to other things...like COOLNESS FACTORS :rolleyes:

But Specifications is where the playing field can be drawn on a LEVEL comparison.
One of the most important specifications in any electronic audio component is the Signal to Noise ratio or SNR.
SNR is measured the same for ALL audio products.
The quality of the parts used to build the product, as well as the thoughtfulness
of the electrical design all play a part in the SNR value.
If everything is maximized to its fullest potential, your SNR should be a number that you would be very proud to display.
The CREATIVE Portable Digital products ALL have an SNR of 90db or better.
In comparison to a Home Theater receiver, to give it ANY consideration, you would want it to have at least a 90db SNR or better.
Ask Apple what the SNR of the iPod v1, v2, v3, & v4 is.

SNR is a measurement of how much NOISE is created during the amplification and playback process of audio from the source audio.
If the SNR is lower than 90db in a Digital Audio player, you will be able to hear hissing or noises during very low audio volumes,
or in a Home Theater Receiver, you'll get hissing during the quite scenes in a movie or television program.
Anything lower than 75db SNR would hiss enough for you to hear it almost all the time.

There are other specifications to consider along with the SNR, such as Total Harmonic Distortion (THD), and the Frequency Response,
but there are too many variables that make up the remaining specifications, for them to have a definite meaning.
In order for the product to fit your lifestyle needs, it has to have a spec, feature, or benefit that you have to have.
This is what draws us to buy what we buy.

In relating this back to the original theme of this thread, if things were done the way we would have liked them to be,
we all would love to have portable audio players that we can just connect
to our radios, whether OEM or aftermarket, and have them work
the way we would like them to.
But we all also have different lifestyles and uses for the products we choose to own.
If the products you use fit your lifestyle very well, you will be very happy with them,
and satisfied with the experience they deliver to you.

Some of the most thought out products, don't work for everyone because they are too complicated,
or the take too long to learn how to use them.
The best devices are often enough the most simplest to use, and easiest to configure, but also give us the most bang for our $$$.

Now I've said enough.

[telson]

I really don't want to do this but I have to set history straight here...
What a GREAT post!

Thanks, MenInBlk!

[JACook]

And I don't know why you think that specifications of a product are marketing hype.
Being a HARDWARE person, this doesn't sound right coming from you at all...
MIB, as I said, I don't wanna get into a religious argument here, so I'm perfectly happy to let you have
the last word. But please don't misquote me.

Perhaps I didn't make the distinction as clearly as I might have, or perhaps you might wanna go back
and reread my post. My comment WRT specs was prefaced with "in the audio space", and "in the audio
space", I stand behind what I wrote. Unlike the automotive world, where 500HP gives a noticeable benefit
over "only" 302HP, advances in the audio world have surpassed human ability to perceive any benefits,
beyond the psychological kick of knowing you've got something better than someone else. Once you get
below .01% THD, can anyone really tell the difference if a new gadget claims .001%? Is 192KHz digital
sampling tangibly better than the Nyquist standard 44.1KHz? Maybe if you're a dog.

Again, _in_the_audio_space_, we are in an age where even the cheapest of devices can deliver audio quality
beyond human auditory capabilities. That's not to say there aren't still some bad implementations out there,
but it's now the exception, where once it was the norm.

Even outside the audio space, I still do tend to take specs with a grain of salt. After all, I did buy an '03 MM. :-)

But hey, if it's specs you want, knock yerself out here:
http://stereophile.com/digitalsourcereviews/934/index5.html
While you're at it, the entire article is a pretty good read.

Do any of the current competing players have better specs? I don't know.
Do I care? Probably not.

As far as setting the history straight, I will simply point out that, just as the Model T wasn't the first car,
or the IBM PC wasn't the first personal computer, both of these examples redefined their segments in a way
that completely overshadowed everything that came before. At the time the iPod was introduced in 2001,
it's only real competition was the 6GB Creative Nomad, a brick of a device, about the size of a Sony Discman,
but thicker. AFAIK, all other portable MP3 players up until then were memory-based toys.

I suggest anyone who really wants to understand why Creative didn't run away with the market back in 2001
should go read the November, 2001 "Tom's Hardware Guide" review at:
http://www20.tomshardware.com/mobile/20001110/index.html
Now, it seems Tom loved it, except for some gripes with Creative's software, but set one next to an iPod,
and you begin to get the picture.

Not only was the Nomad a brick, but to load that 6G, you had to squeeze the data through a USB-1 straw,
which according to Creative's own specs, only moves at best 500KB/sec. So, by my calculations, this would
take almost 3.5 _hours_. And, if you took Tom's suggestion, and put a 12GB or 20GB disk in the Nomad, well...
You do the math.

Contrast with the 2001 version of the iPod, which, while "only" 5GB, was about the same size as an audio
cassette box, less than half the weight of the Nomad, and could be completely reloaded in less than 20
minutes, over it's IEEE-1394 "Firewire" interface.
And, of course, there's that UI thing again.

It wasn't, and IMO still isn't, all Apple marketing hype.
Peace.

[shakes_26]

I've seen many posts with bits and pieces here and there regarding this topic. As I've spent some time on the Internet and phone recently here are my findings, anyone care to chime in, please do, I am no expert.

XM

Using a Pioneer GEX-P910XM receiver (antenna optional) with a PIE adapter FRD03/PC-PIOX, you will get channel control from your factory head unit and steering wheel controls. The display will show CD1 trk 01 for channel 101, you don’t get memory presets, scan, or that jive. This connects to the back of the factory head unit; you can also keep the trunk mount CD changer, just daisy chain with the XM.

The Pioneer is the only unit compatible so far, yes I know there is cheaper out there.

Sirius

Basically same story, use a Kenwood KTC-SR903 Sirius receiver with the PIE adapter FRD03/PC-KNNSR. This will give you the same functions as the XM setup. The only bonus is the Kenwood receiver is cheaper!

Universal Aux input

So the remaining choice is the PIE adapter FRD03/Aux, this gives you RCA inputs for the factory head unit, at the back of the head unit. For example, if you wanted to use your XM commander (or any Satellite PnP receiver), and hardwire into the factory unit, this would be the choice. You would control and see which channel you were on using the XM commander module or its remote control. The same holds true for any Sirius product. This is also a possibility for iPod users.

iPod

There is the PAC AUx-POD adapter, which gives you basic iPod control (as if it were a CD changer). You also need to choose the adapter cable, I believe the 2003 Crown Vic (20pin cable) will work, part number AB-FRD20.

There is also a Dension iCE link v1.1, which I like better. This takes the iPod controls and converts them to the Alpine format. This charges the iPod turns it on/off, as it is selected/deselected as the source. You'll also require the PIE adapter FRD03/PC-ALP to complete the install. And if you want to add a CD changer, you'll need to stick with an Alpine.

Unfortunately nothing like the BMW ipod setup available.

Multi Source Aux inputs

If we aren't confused by now, you will be. They also make multi source input devices, that use a three way switch to control which one is being sent to the head unit through the newly created 'aux' rca ports. PIE makes the X-3 requires an additional cable, Soundgate also makes a unit. If your looking at doing this, maybe you should just consider an aftermarket head unit with video capability, satellite, and everything else built in.

I could be wrong on a few things, but that is what I've found in my research and what I've gleaned from other posts. I've also noticed LogJam electronics seemed to have all the aforementioned items, not an endorsement here just a public service announcement.

Personally I am torn between the ultra clean XM receiver only, control through the steering wheel, and the extra function of the XM commander with its song/channel display and presets. I may even go with the Roady2 due to its portability to the house/boat/etc.

-Marc:banghead:

[Mad4Macs]

Yea, and all of your 330 albums get listed as TRACK 01, TRACK 02, TRACK 03, etc...

What good is that ? You can find yourself a good CD Changer that support 12 discs and MP3s and have over 150 tracks on each CD.
The display for the CD Changer would read the ID3 tags of the MP3s, and display the Album, Artist, and Track title for ya.
Something even the 4TH GENERATION iPod can't do...

APPLE - THINK DIFFERENT... :bs:

Clueless poster... go home. All iPods since day one have displayed album, artist and track info.
I don't use telepathy to find the songs that I listen to...
*looking at the iPod, it says "Life of Leisure, Lucious Jackson, In Search of Manny.*
Strike One, Two and Three, you're out!
You're the exact kind of person that would glorify the DullDJ, even though it's more limited (And yes, I'm also a certified Dell, HP, Toshiba etc.. etc.. etc.. tech.).
My iPod has an OS on it, and yes, I can boot any FireWire equipped Mac from it for troubleshooting purposes.
My iPod has a calendar, alarm clock, sleep timer, text notes, audio books, contact lists and games. My iPod supports mp3, mp4 and a lossless codec which by every comparision I've read, blows wmv into the dirt... and the tests were conducted using hardware to analyze full spectrum fidelity.
And there's the usabilty issue. The iPod's interface is simply the best out there. As is the iTunes music store (owns 70% of the music market).
There's a reason that the iPod holds a 80-90% market share in hard drive based players... it's simply better than everything out there and most people do, in fact, make educated decisions when they spend a significant amount of money.
BTW...I have an Alpine and MY tracks are listed exactly as they are seen by my computer and I can control my iPod through the head unit.
Apple users Think Different. PC users follow Apple by 3 to 5 years.
Just take a look at longhorn... if indeed it makes it within 5 years of the release of OS X. Microsoft is currently stripping features from it in order to get it out the door and it's still late :D

[Dan]

JACOOK,

Just so you know, I got what you said in your original post and it made sense to me. Thanks for the reiteration.

I do like the way that you made your point about how certain products have "defined" a category thought not the first product of its kind.

Dan

[MENINBLK]

Mad4Macs... :rolleyes:

And I guess that iPod users can't read very well either...

If you go back to my post and READ the post, I was referring to what is displayed on the RADIO, when an iPod is connected to the RADIO directly.

The Alpine is the only unit we know of that transfers the ID3 tag info from the iPod to the radio display.
The BMW iPod option that integrates your iPod into the BMW radio does not.
You have to look at the iPod to see what the ID3 tag info is...

I never said that the iPod didn't display this info.