Transmission Help

[mpearce]

This is non Marauder related...

Hey guys just a question to see if anyone out there can help. While driving the company truck today 2000 something Ford Expedition, I noticed a really nasty feeling shift from 2-3. It happened while upshifting, every single time. Basically it felt as if I was driving over those ribbed speed bumps, kind of like those ones on the highway when you're coming up to a toll booth. It even made the same noise...and I swear I wasn't driving over anything of the sort. This happened on completely smooth pavement every time. The vehicle has about 140,000 miles on it and get driven about 400 miles a day. They company does good maintenance on it, oil, tires, etc...but I was wondering if anyone might know what this is, or what is going on here. Bad vibration/noise shifting from 2-3rd gear. I figured I could tell the company what might be wrong. Thanks.

-Mat

[TripleTransAm]

I'm thinking it's the transmission fluid that's overdue for a change. The constant slippage that Ford programs into its ECMs seems to kill tranny fluid much faster than what I'd expect (we discussed this in another thread very recently). From what's been described, it's most likely torque converter clutch shudder... I'm just now beginning to get this on my Marauder and am scheduled for the tranny fluid change.

[Marauderjack]

mpearce....

Go to your local Ford parts counter and get a 4 ounce bottle of "Friction Modifier"....pour it in the trans and....VOILA...NO MORE SHUDDER!!!! :D

Note: DON'T SPILL IT OR GET IT ON YOU.....IT STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN!!!

It seems the friction surfaces in older Ford transmissions would glaze as additives break down and the "FM stink juice" removes the glaze nicely!! This has never failed...to my knowledge....and has worked on 3 CV's I have owned personally!! :banana:

You can change the fluid and it may help but the FM is a "sure fire" fix if shudder is all you have!!

Marauderjack :bandit:

[Krytin]

mpearce....
"Friction Modifier"....pour it in the trans and....VOILA...NO MORE SHUDDER!!!! :D

Note: DON'T SPILL IT OR GET IT ON YOU.....IT STINKS TO HIGH HEAVEN!!!


Marauderjack :bandit:

a.k.a. whale puke!

It does work - try it!

[mpearce]

Thanks for the advice guys...I'm driving the truck again today...so I think I'll make a suggestion to the boss.

-Mat

[RF Overlord]

Mat:

I'm not familiar with the FM the other posters are recommending, but if it's a gen-yew-wine Ford product, and they say it works, then I accept that...

However...

I agree 100% with TooManyTransAms that what you have is torque converter clutch shudder, caused by worn-out and/or contaminated ATF. Simply adding the above-mentioned friction modifier might band-aid the situation temporarily, but you will STILL have crappy ATF in there...I suggest you get the transmission fluid (and filter) changed ASAP, before it damages the transmission to the point of needing an expensive repair. Make SURE they put in only Mercon V, not regular Mercon with one of those additives that allegedly makes it into Mercon V...

[TripleTransAm]

a.k.a. whale puke!

It does work - try it!


Maybe so, but I'm most interested in how you managed to get a whale to puke? Seems easier to just go to a car parts store and buy the additive off the shelf... :confused:

And speaking of additives... I'm of the religious denomination that firmly believes that auto trannies were made to hold 3 things: gears, a valvebody, and fluid. No additives. Maybe a few shafts thrown in there along with the above to allow the gears to transmit their power to the driveshaft, but no additives.

[David Morton]

Mat:

I'm not familiar with the FM the other posters are recommending, but if it's a gen-yew-wine Ford product, and they say it works, then I accept that...

However...

I agree 100% with TooManyTransAms that what you have is torque converter clutch shudder, caused by worn-out and/or contaminated ATF. Simply adding the above-mentioned friction modifier might band-aid the situation temporarily, but you will STILL have crappy ATF in there...I suggest you get the transmission fluid (and filter) changed ASAP, before it damages the transmission to the point of needing an expensive repair. Make SURE they put in only Mercon V, not regular Mercon with one of those additives that allegedly makes it into Mercon V...I would agree with everything the overlord says except the part about the filter.

I rebuilt countless transmissions as that was my specialty back in the 90s and I know tranny filters today are the size of car vacuum cleaner bags. All they have to catch is the teaspoon of flake-off material that comes off new clutch discs. If there is anything for the filter to catch after 10,000 miles or so, the tranny is "making metal" and isn't going to last anyways. The filter can't get clogged by the small amount of normal break in material or by worn-out fluid. Also, replacing the filter can be the source of a couple of human-error mistakes that can cause other problems, a pan gasket leak seems to be the biggest one but I've also seen deep gouges in the intake tube socket leading into the pump that could introduce air into the pump.

There is an alternative and it won't void your warranty. Most dealerships now offer a "line-change" ATF replacement procedure, where the old fluid is intercepted and removed at the cooler lines and the new fluid is pumped in. This has two advantages.

One- It eliminates those human-error mistakes I already outlined, plus a couple of other even more catastrophic snafus that some really educationally challenged mechanics might make, and...

Two- You actually change out all of the old fluid by flushing it out while the engine (and transmission) is still running. This gets out the 6-7 Qts. of fluid that's still inside the torque convertor, pump, clutch housings and lube passages that an old style "pan drop" method doesn't.

My 2c. :D

[mpearce]

Wow!

Lots of good info here. I'm amazed. Hopefully I'll be able to sort through all this so that the people that need to take care of this vehicle can do so properly, and in time for a busy holiday driving season.

It's not my money I'm working with here, so I have to make reasonable suggestions. I'm also not sure if they'll be able to take it to the dealer or not.

So if I tell them to change out the trans fluid, and use Mechron V, that'll help a little? This is a suggestion for starters of course...and if the problem persists after I take this corrective action...then what?

-Mat

[TripleTransAm]

David, I'm interested in your comments regarding the tranny flush methods.

I would tend to share your opinion on the superiority of the intravenous flush method, but I've seen two references to this having caused problems. Of course, no explicit information was given, just "we've had more tranny problems since using that machine" type of feedback. Most likely circumstantial, but I want your opinion on how anyone could possibly mess up a tranny using a tranny flush method like this!

[SergntMac]

Once I reached 450+ RWHP, I grew concern for ATF temps, and how quickly they can rise and scorch. Once I bought a Ford racing tranny pan with a drain plug, I felt better about it. When ever I feel like it, I drain the tranny pan and top it off with fresh Merkon V. Simple to do, and cost effective over more expensive tranny services. Not for everyone, I know, but I'm kinda wacky about this stuff anyway. Clean is always better, even if it's not a full flush, it's better than none at all.

[RF Overlord]

Using a flush machine such as the T-Tech (http://www.cloreautomotive.com/site_prod.asp?sku_pk=151) cannot CAUSE transmission failure. This type of machine uses the transmission's own pump to pump the old fluid into one end of a double-ended cylinder, which causes a piston similar to that used in shock absorbers to push fresh fluid back into the transmission, all through the cooler lines. There is no external pressure applied, and it does not cause all the sludge in the bottom of the pan to be stirred up, as some have claimed. It also does not "back-flush" the filter, dumping crap into the transmission... :rolleyes: ...honestly, I don't think people who claim this have ever taken the time to actually SEE how one of these machines works...more often than not, I believe people have a transmission that is acting up, they KNOW they haven't had the fluid changed regularly, so they bring it in and get a flush, but by the time they do this, it's too late; the damage has already been done, but now they blame the flush process... :shake:

I also agree with Mac about installing a pan with a drain plug. I did that at 15,000 miles, and also installed a new filter. I drained the pan again at 30,000 miles, and intend to do it every 15,000 miles from now on...it's cheap insurance.

Mat, to answer your last question, if you have the transmission flushed using Mercon V, and the problem persists, then your transmission is already damaged and will need professional help. Just bear in mind that it can take a hundred miles or so for the problem to abate if it's just a fluid breakdown, so don't panic if it doesn't clear up immediately.

And David, I see your point about the filter, but I recommended Mat have his changed since he said it hadn't been serviced for 140,000 miles...

[Krytin]

Maybe so, but I'm most interested in how you managed to get a whale to puke? Seems easier to just go to a car parts store and buy the additive off the shelf... :confused:

And speaking of additives... I'm of the religious denomination that firmly believes that auto trannies were made to hold 3 things: gears, a valvebody, and fluid. No additives. Maybe a few shafts thrown in there along with the above to allow the gears to transmit their power to the driveshaft, but no additives.

Well first you have to stick your fingers down his throat, then you... no, "Also Known As" - refered to FoMoCo Friction Modifier. It's primary use is for the Trac Lok posi units (I just put a bottle in a 4.10 rear I rebuilt @ work - the name came from the Ford parts guy) but it has been used in transmisions by the service departments.

Also some good words in the last two posts by S'Mac & RF Overlord

[TripleTransAm]

Ouch. I'm fully familiar with the friction modifier (being a 12-year owner of Posi'ed Trans Ams) and why it's used. Yet another reason I'd cringe at using it in a tranny... the thought of modifying a clutch-surface's breakaway friction point inside a tranny makes me very nervous. The tranny may shift smoother, but BOY is there a heck of a lot more slipping and sliding going on!

My philosophy: a super smooth-shifting transmission is not necessarily a properly-functioning one. Positive shifts are good. Shudder, however, is not, and is indicative of other longevity issues with the tranny design, but that's another story over another beer...

[David Morton]

David, I'm interested in your comments regarding the tranny flush methods.

I would tend to share your opinion on the superiority of the intravenous flush method, but I've seen two references to this having caused problems. Of course, no explicit information was given, just "we've had more tranny problems since using that machine" type of feedback. Most likely circumstantial, but I want your opinion on how anyone could possibly mess up a tranny using a tranny flush method like this!I suppose if somebody were to let the thing run dry it could cause pump damage but my experience tells me that kind of damage will cascade quickly into total failure.

I've had this type fluid change twice before (at 25k and 45k) on my old '97 Grand Marquis for this very shudder and had no problems, fixed the shudder both times.

[Bradley G]

Hey mpearce,
With that many miles and no routien service intervals,the fluid may be the only thing with friction left!.Do as the dealer advises try the modifier !I have been witness to instances where a complete tranny service @ this many neglected miles turns south and the vehicle won't even move!
Bradley G

[David Morton]

Hey mpearce,
With that many miles and no routien service intervals,the fluid may be the only thing with friction left!.Do as the dealer advises try the modifier !I have been witness to instances where a complete tranny service @ this many neglected miles turns south and the vehicle won't even move!
Bradley GDitto on that! If the fluid is very old, chances are there's heavy varnish-like build up inside and new fluid with it's detergents will break this crap up and shoot it throughout the valve body sticking valves right and left. Even tiny particles of that stuff that get's through the new filter will stick the valves tight.