4:10 gears and my FLM warranty

[Svashtar]

The service mgr. at my FLM dealer where I bought my '03 MM learned of my plans to have the local performance shop install my Ford 4:10 gears when I asked her about the axle scoring TSB and my plans to have the axles checked while doing the gears.

Her spin: if I replace the 4:10 gears as far as she is concerned I am voiding the warranty on my entire rear end (INCLUDING the axle TSB most likely), the drive shaft, the tranny, the PCM, the speedometer, and some other electronic device which escapes me. I told her I was flashing the PCM so that the speedo was in sync, and then she really got going. Talk about mod unfriendly! I can't believe that they could extend the changing of the gears to a tranny problem down the road. Anyone else have input from their dealers on how the gear change will affect the tranny warranty? That's the big one for me.

Luckily the performance shop agreed to open it up and check the axles and if they saw scoring they would button it back up at no charge and I could take it to FLM for the axle TSB fix. My only other option was to pay to have the car checked by a third party, and then pay to have it towed to the FLM dealer. Of course, if only the dealer would do all the work then all these problems would go away, but they refuse to install FLM parts into a FLM car.

The performance guy pointed out that they don't have to know about the 4:10 gears, but with a stud & girdle kit installed it's going to be kind of obvious someone has been in there!

Thanks for any feedback.

Regards,

Norm

[RF Overlord]

Norm:

The shop that installed my 4.10s did see some axle scoring, so I had them hold off on the stud kit and the rear end girdle until after I get it to the dealer for the TSB...if they question the Permatex sealant on the stock cover, I'll just tell them I changed the fluid at 30,000 miles (like I'm supposed to :P ) and have the remaining parts installed after they're done...

If you still have the stock cover, put it back on before you bring it in...unless they've worked on a number of Marauder rear axles already, most likely the tech won't realise that the stud kit isn't stock...

[the_pack_rat]

Good timing on bringing up this subject again.

The best "peace of mind" when doing this gear change from what I've read here - is to get the MMDS & probably do the stud girdle kit.

Course' as you said - this brings obvious attention to said mods.

I'm FAR from qualified to say this ... but I would think the MMDS would be the more IMPORTANT compliment to the 4:10's before the girdle kit if you were staying N/A & not doing a lot of off the line drags etc etc ... but that is merely just a GUESS on my part. I'm sure those more knowledgeable that have "been there done that" - will chime in with more accurate 411.

I've never seen a MMDS up close & personal - nor took much note of any pics here - but I'd imagine it is a pretty obvious difference to most Ford wrenches.

I don't know ...

This topic has me on the fence BIG time.

No doubt whatsoever in my mind I will LOVE the results & "bang for the buck" ...

I'm just not so sure I feel like kicking the warranty on all involved components to the curb at the moment.

I can almost envision the Ford TSB memos that are probaly floating around out there since Ford caught wind of how many of us have modded their cars ...

Ex -

Subject : Tailshaft bushing concerns.

Before performing ANY warranty related repairs - VERIFY that customer has NOT installed a gear set other than the OEM 3.55's. Check PCM parameters - check for OEM driveshaft presence etc etc.

============

Maybe i'm just being paranoid ...

But I think I have a right to be spending $28K on something.

Eric < --- :confused:

[Bigdogjim]

It is ashame you need to go through this :bs:

Truth is it is your dealer that will "make or brake" your attempt to mod the car.

The only thing you can do is ask yourself if it's "worth" it to you to go ahead with your plans?

Good luck, keep us posted:)

[TheDealer]

Here's my .o2 on the subject. The gears do make the trans turn more rpms, and the engine. More rpms means more wear. The factory warranty is for cars tuning the rpm it was made for. In my opinion it won't hurt anything but by the book it would void your warranty. As for the electronics, I can't believe it will effect them. It all depends on the dealer. Try another one. Ray

[Rep12]

You guys make me laugh. What the heck do expect the selling dealer to tell you - "Go ahead, do all the mods you want, tear up the car at the track, we'll cover everything!" As far as a performance shop covering anything - fat chance on that one,too.

Perhaps waiting 3 years or 36,000 miles would be best.

Just my 02

Dave

[RF Overlord]

The only thing you can do is ask yourself if it's "worth" it to you to go ahead with your plans?

Perhaps waiting 3 years or 36,000 miles would be best.
OTOH, if you do it NOW, you have 3 more years to enjoy the car...come on, it's only a set of GEARS for cryin' out loud...FORD gears...made by FORD...for FORD cars...if they're installed correctly, they'll outlast the rest of the car...

Seriously, if you have so little faith in the car that the warranty scares you, then Rep12 is right...

[FordNut]

Find another dealer...

[valleyman]

The speed shop that installed my 4.10s found scarring on the axle. I took the axle to the local L/M dealer (which was not the not the dealer I bought it from). After checking with an "area representative" they got me a new axle, under warrantee. No charge to me for the part.

[Paul T. Casey]

I'm with RF on this one, if you're scared of the quality of the car and parts (mods) wait out your warrantee. I've modded, although not gears, and went over 76K today. I've had a few issues for my ESP, but never a problem getting the work done (a new head was done AFTER my mods.) I don't reccomend outright lying to your dealer/service person, but feel them out and decide how much to tell them. It's a little like poker.

[Murader03]

I've got 70K+ on mine. The gears went in at 3K. No problems. The engine was replaced at 54K, not as a result of the gears but due to overheat condition. If you can't afford the expense of repair due to a mod you've installed, then don't mod the car. We're all grown-ups here and I think most understand that we may have to pay to play.......Just like the guys and gals here who have installed SC's on the car, if they blow up because of it, then you can't expect FMC to foot the bill.

[ELKO1]

I work part-time at a ford dealership as a Detailer. So I get parts at Dealer cost plus 15%. A very nice benefit. Talked to them about buying Ford gears and weather or not it would void the warranty, they said it was not a problem. Still debating on 4.10s or 4.30s. I'll will be getting a Lightning Supercharger through them as well. God do i love Ford!

[valleyman]

I work part-time at a ford dealership as a Detailer. So I get parts at Dealer cost plus 15%. A very nice benefit. Talked to them about buying Ford gears and weather or not it would void the warranty, they said it was not a problem. Still debating on 4.10s or 4.30s. I'll will be getting a Lightning Supercharger through them as well. God do i love Ford!


I have the 4.10s. The difference in milage is negligible and it still has more top end than I do courage to get there. If I had to do it over I'd go with the 4.30s.

[DEW34]

here is something else to think about what is ford going to do about the warrenty on the fhp cars i dont think dennis installed gears but he did alott of other stuff
mike

[teamrope]

I'm lucky I guss. My dealer installed my 4.10's, but then they are a certified Mazda speed dealer too.

When I asked about swapping gears and waranty, they asked if they were ford motorsport gears. Since they were, no problem. :)

[Svashtar]

OTOH, if you do it NOW, you have 3 more years to enjoy the car...come on, it's only a set of GEARS for cryin' out loud...FORD gears...made by FORD...for FORD cars...if they're installed correctly, they'll outlast the rest of the car...

Seriously, if you have so little faith in the car that the warranty scares you, then Rep12 is right... I have faith in the car. What I don't have is faith in FLM to honor their committment to fix the 100 half-azzed little problems that you get when buying American. What I EXPECT is a consistent policy from Ford. I don't expect them to honor my full 36K warranty on the differential. I DO expect them to honor the 12K on the aftermarket gears that Ford promises. I also do not expect to be screwed by the dealer when he says down the road that the scarring on the axles which was caused by too soft axles being installed as per the Ford internal TSB 3.05.55 will NOT be covered because I changed the damned gears that have NOTHING to do with the TSB.

I also don't expect to have the entire drive train warranty voided because I changed gears. I'm tired of chicken dealers who try to parse their way out of their obligation. By their "logic" if I standardize all 4 tires on the same size, then I am voiding all alignment, suspension, differential, axle and wheel bearing warranties. As stated, my dealer takes the extreme position: just about ANY mod voids the entire warranty.

Just wanted to get your experience on the matter and I have it. I'm definitely doing the mods, and I'll take it to 20 different dealers until I get unrelated warranty items covered if necessary. I just would rather have the FLM dealer who sold me the car install the FLM parts and honor the FLM warranty so that I wouldn't be doing constant battle with them. If I were installing no name parts, then I would expect resistance, but these are Ford gears.

Those of you who have dealers who don't give you this hassle and instead actually help you improve your cars are more fortunate than you realize!

Thanks,

Norm

[sfsv]

I am a FLM certified service advisor who takes care of various law enforcement agencies including the FHP. The warranty on the rear axle would be voided and possible the transmission if the transmission shows damage from excessive driveshaft speed and vibration. FMC limited the top speed of the 99 CVPI to 126 mph, changed from an alum. to metal matrix composite driveshaft, replaced the transmission extention housing, replace the rear springs with taller rear springs (TSB 99-18-1) due to the fact that the 3:55 rear gears were causing the transmission extention housing to leak, the internal bushing to fail, along with a driveline vibration due to excessive driveshaft speed. The purpose of the rear springs was to raise the rear suspension height to counter the lowering effect that happens at extended high speeds which would cause the driveshaft to "hammer" the transmission when car reached high speeds(MM owners watch your ride heights). This concern is the main reason your MM are limited to 117 mph and 3:27 equipped CVPI are limited to 130 mph (the later 3:55 equipped CVPI are limited to 119-122 mph base on calibration). Back in 1995 and 1996 when CVPI was competing against the LT-1 Caprice's and driveshaft vibration was not a concern the top speed of some 96-97 MY CVPI was 135-137 mph.
Back in the early 90's I saw alot of failed AOD transmissions (overdrive bands and extention housing)in 5.0 Mustangs when the owners installed 3:73 or 4:10 gears and didnot upgrade the transmissions. We never covered them under warranty because it was obvious what caused the failure. Truth be told that the transmission in CVPI and MM have a very low failure rate, yes they build them that well. I wouldn't even install an aftermarket torque converter unless I was building a car that was 70% strip/30% street.
In closing I am not one to dampen your attempts to enhance your MM but to forewarn you of the downsides. I would definitely have the rear axles checked and replaced if necessary before doing any mods. Remember when you are enhancing a vehicle you must do it as a complete system approach, just as the factory does. You don't see 03 Cobra Mustangs with 205/65-15 tires on them and rear drum brakes.:cool:

The service mgr. at my FLM dealer where I bought my '03 MM learned of my plans to have the local performance shop install my Ford 4:10 gears when I asked her about the axle scoring TSB and my plans to have the axles checked while doing the gears.

Her spin: if I replace the 4:10 gears as far as she is concerned I am voiding the warranty on my entire rear end (INCLUDING the axle TSB most likely), the drive shaft, the tranny, the PCM, the speedometer, and some other electronic device which escapes me. I told her I was flashing the PCM so that the speedo was in sync, and then she really got going. Talk about mod unfriendly! I can't believe that they could extend the changing of the gears to a tranny problem down the road. Anyone else have input from their dealers on how the gear change will affect the tranny warranty? That's the big one for me.

Luckily the performance shop agreed to open it up and check the axles and if they saw scoring they would button it back up at no charge and I could take it to FLM for the axle TSB fix. My only other option was to pay to have the car checked by a third party, and then pay to have it towed to the FLM dealer. Of course, if only the dealer would do all the work then all these problems would go away, but they refuse to install FLM parts into a FLM car.

The performance guy pointed out that they don't have to know about the 4:10 gears, but with a stud & girdle kit installed it's going to be kind of obvious someone has been in there!

Thanks for any feedback.

Regards,

Norm

[jgc61sr2002]

sfsv - Welcome aboard. :D Your answer is not what most want to hear but it is forthright and honest. Can't fault you for that.

[SergntMac]

sfsv - Welcome aboard. :D Your answer is not what most want to hear but it is forthright and honest. Can't fault you for that.
Ditto...And thanks, dude. Hope you hang around a while...

[Mike Poore]

I am a FLM certified service advisor who takes care of various law enforcement agencies including the FHP. The warranty on the rear axle would be voided and possible the transmission if the transmission shows damage from excessive driveshaft speed and vibration. FMC limited the top speed of the 99 CVPI to 126 mph, changed from an alum. to metal matrix composite driveshaft, replaced the transmission extention housing, replace the rear springs with taller rear springs (TSB 99-18-1) due to the fact that the 3:55 rear gears were causing the transmission extention housing to leak, the internal bushing to fail, along with a driveline vibration due to excessive driveshaft speed. The purpose of the rear springs was to raise the rear suspension height to counter the lowering effect that happens at extended high speeds which would cause the driveshaft to "hammer" the transmission when car reached high speeds(MM owners watch your ride heights). This concern is the main reason your MM are limited to 117 mph and 3:27 equipped CVPI are limited to 130 mph (the later 3:55 equipped CVPI are limited to 119-122 mph base on calibration). Back in 1995 and 1996 when CVPI was competing against the LT-1 Caprice's and driveshaft vibration was not a concern the top speed of some 96-97 MY CVPI was 135-137 mph.
Back in the early 90's I saw alot of failed AOD transmissions (overdrive bands and extention housing)in 5.0 Mustangs when the owners installed 3:73 or 4:10 gears and didnot upgrade the transmissions. We never covered them under warranty because it was obvious what caused the failure. Truth be told that the transmission in CVPI and MM have a very low failure rate, yes they build them that well. I wouldn't even install an aftermarket torque converter unless I was building a car that was 70% strip/30% street.
In closing I am not one to dampen your attempts to enhance your MM but to forewarn you of the downsides. I would definitely have the rear axles checked and replaced if necessary before doing any mods. Remember when you are enhancing a vehicle you must do it as a complete system approach, just as the factory does. You don't see 03 Cobra Mustangs with 205/65-15 tires on them and rear drum brakes.:cool:
That's a great post; perhaps not what some folks want to hear; but straight from the horses mouth, with data to back it up. We've been listening to Dennis and others explain about cascading consequences of adding performance products piecemeal. Look at what he's doing with the FHP cars, and we get a better understanding of the total system approach. Sure, I put a shiney hiney on mine, but the dealer installed it, while they were doing major rear end warrantee work, after agreeing it was a good thing to do.:twocents:

[Svashtar]

I am a FLM certified service advisor who takes care of various law enforcement agencies including the FHP. The warranty on the rear axle would be voided and possible the transmission if the transmission shows damage from excessive driveshaft speed and vibration. FMC limited the top speed of the 99 CVPI to 126 mph, changed from an alum. to metal matrix composite driveshaft, replaced the transmission extention housing, replace the rear springs with taller rear springs (TSB 99-18-1) due to the fact that the 3:55 rear gears were causing the transmission extention housing to leak, the internal bushing to fail, along with a driveline vibration due to excessive driveshaft speed. The purpose of the rear springs was to raise the rear suspension height to counter the lowering effect that happens at extended high speeds which would cause the driveshaft to "hammer" the transmission when car reached high speeds(MM owners watch your ride heights). This concern is the main reason your MM are limited to 117 mph and 3:27 equipped CVPI are limited to 130 mph (the later 3:55 equipped CVPI are limited to 119-122 mph base on calibration). Back in 1995 and 1996 when CVPI was competing against the LT-1 Caprice's and driveshaft vibration was not a concern the top speed of some 96-97 MY CVPI was 135-137 mph.
Back in the early 90's I saw alot of failed AOD transmissions (overdrive bands and extention housing)in 5.0 Mustangs when the owners installed 3:73 or 4:10 gears and didnot upgrade the transmissions. We never covered them under warranty because it was obvious what caused the failure. Truth be told that the transmission in CVPI and MM have a very low failure rate, yes they build them that well. I wouldn't even install an aftermarket torque converter unless I was building a car that was 70% strip/30% street.
In closing I am not one to dampen your attempts to enhance your MM but to forewarn you of the downsides. I would definitely have the rear axles checked and replaced if necessary before doing any mods. Remember when you are enhancing a vehicle you must do it as a complete system approach, just as the factory does. You don't see 03 Cobra Mustangs with 205/65-15 tires on them and rear drum brakes.:cool: SFSV:

Thanks very much for the excellent info! Bottom line, I am having the Ford 4:10 gears put in and all seals replaced by a Ford performance shop that has been in business since 1968. They are also installing a stud & girdle kit, an MMX driveshaft from Dennis to handle the extra RPM's, and Steeda UD pullies. I am doing nothing to the transmission right now, and had not planned on upgrading the already fairly beefy torque converter. My final step this go-round is to flash the PCM with Dennis's premium fuel program to improve shifting, etc. (AND remove the top-end limiter!) In the next couple of months I plan on getting the Meziere water pump and Dennis's cobra exhaust kit. Only other mods after that might be his engine cooling mod, and finally his tranny upgrade IF I could find someone around here to do it. In the meantime I try to take care of the tranny by only going WOT (occassionally) with the OD off, and not shifting from OD to OD Off while at high speed.

I don't see that doing any of this stuff is going to hurt the tranny frankly, esp. as I have eliminated any high speed vibration to it by upgrading the driveshaft. I don't drag the car but like to drive it fast, and have a couple of private places where I can open it up to 120 or 130 and want to try that.

Luckily, I got around my dealer refusing to check for the axle damage by this shop I'm with being nice enough to check the axles and bearings completely at no charge prior to doing the work, and then agreeing to button everything up and send me to the dealer if they found anything.

I half suspected the axles would be OK, and they were. (I ran into another '03 MM owner in town who has done nothing to his car ever and has over 40K miles on it with no axle problems. I checked and it is also a pre-decontented 300B manufactured the same week as mine in October 2002.)

I know this car is capable of a lot more than the factory performance, and would like to get it. I suppose I could eat some costs down the road, but the bottom line is that after full payment for the car, including sales tax, and $4K worth of upgrades, the total cost will still only be $30K, so I have some bandwidth there.

Thanks again for your expertise, and hope you stick around!

Regards,

Norm