Chrysler 300C Magnum 1/4 Time

[sailsmen]

Good air last nite, 55* / 60%. The 300C best time 14.7, not very impressive.

[TripleTransAm]

Magnum or 300C, which one was it?

Summer 2003, I was running 15.10s and a best of 15.06, perhaps hampered by my overheating ticking head (false knock?) perhaps not. Anyway, same track, one year later, probably same atmospheric conditions since the dates seemed to line up, there was a stock Magnum running 14.30 super-reliably all day. With the same cool air in which I managed 14.6s until a best of 14.56, would this thing have cracked the 13s? Perhaps the lighter 300C would have done better, too.

So there's my data point: same tracks, probably same conditions (they have been lame track preppers for streetcar events for decades, why would they change this summer?). 15.06 vs. 14.30, and I doubt the Magnum had any significant mods so it's probably safe to say both those numbers are on bone stock cars.

Unfortunately it looked absolutely boring doing this... the exhaust was inaudible and at WOT, all you heard was WHOOSH.

[bigslim]

I was lurking around the 300C, Magnum website a while ago and there were some Magnums running less then impressive numbers. Some reported running low to mid 15's and others that were running in the low 14's. Needless to say the guys running in the 15's were pissed. It seems these cars have a wide margin of error when it comes to timed runs.

[tmac1337]

I assume that car and engine has the same mod potential as the MM has. It is probably too early to say where they will be 2 years from now with it. If that engine on the C is 5.7 liters I would say it has a lot of potential.

[mrjones]

I assume that car and engine has the same mod potential as the MM has. It is probably too early to say where they will be 2 years from now with it. If that engine on the C is 5.7 liters I would say it has a lot of potential.

There were 2 things that I really liked about the Magnum RT that I drove compared to my Marauder. First, the low end response of the engine was (as it should be with an extra 80 ci) much better. On the top end it felt pretty similar. Second, the sticker of the 05 Magnum was about $600 more than my 03 MM. For that extra $600, you got a LOT of extra equipment: Sirius satellite radio, DVD nav system, moonroof, heated seats, trip computer etc. None of those really add to the "badass" attitude of the car, but I likes those toys!!

I love my MM, but one of the best parts about mine was that I bought it for about $12K off the sticker!!!

[sailsmen]

I assume that car and engine has the same mod potential as the MM has. It is probably too early to say where they will be 2 years from now with it. If that engine on the C is 5.7 liters I would say it has a lot of potential.

Good Point, it was a 300C with the Hemi, ( I meant it had the Hemi and said Magnum using the Chryler enging performance nomeclature of yore ) Chrysler did a good hype job on the Hemi compared to Ford INTEC.

[duhtroll]

So far no one has been able to crack the PCM on those cars, and DCB is not releasing codes. Therefore, no blower packages for it yet.

The aftermarket may soon catch up, but we are wayyyyy ahead on that front. We are also ahead given the amount of time the 300 hemi has been out. We had more aftermarket in a shorter time.

Here's hoping it stays that way!

Had I bought a 300 or Magnum and wanted to S/C it now I would be pizzled! (as many of the drivers are)

-A

[TripleTransAm]

It was the same thing with the LS1 for many years... LT1 Edit was out fairly soon after the LT1 hit the streets, but people were very tight-lipped with the LS1 code. Only recently (past 2 years?) has the ability to tune an LS1 PCM been in the hands of the everyday unwashed masses.

The thing that most helped our MMs, tuning-wise, was the fact that there wasn't anything really new with the car. The basic engine and engine management had been around fairly long, so tweaking it was not a new frontier by any means. What slowed us down from the start was the packaging of all this hardware in the Panther platform. With the Hemis, it's all new to this market, and I suspect tuning it will remain the domain of high-$$ German tuners for years to come (given the drivetrain's pedigree), not considering the fact that a lot of the hardware and software is just plain NEW (ie. MDS, etc..).

I suspect it will be a good 3-4 years before mods become commonplace for those cars.

[duhtroll]

TTA - I hope so.

-A

[RF Overlord]

So far no one has been able to crack the PCM on those cars, and DCB is not releasing codes. Therefore, no blower packages for it yet.

Another potential drawback to modding these motors is that they use a speed/density system for air measurement, instead of a mass air flow system (like the MM). This means that cold-air packages and such can be much trickier to implement, as the speed/density system requires adjustments to the mixture maps in the PCM (see duhtroll's comment above), whereas the mass airflow system is adaptive (hurray for our side)...

Therefor, no JLT/PHP/K&N packages for it, either...

[TripleTransAm]

I'm not sure, but I don't think it's THAT much of a disadvantage. The 3rd gen F-body performance V8s switched to S/D in 1990 or 1991, and I don't recall hearing that it was a huge barrier to overcome. Out of the box, it held a slight advantage (performance-wise) over the MAF'ed earlier cars, but eventually it did result in a performance ceiling beyond which you needed to switch to a MAF setup to continue making more power... but I somehow recall this being a fairly high threshold of power before this 'downgrade' was necessary.

Maybe Eric91Z can shed some light on this?

LS1s use both S/D and MAF. ;)

Edit: I'm finding lots of references to 1993 F-bodies (speed density only) and cold air kits, many of them home-made. So I don't think there is a restriction when it comes to cold air intakes and S/D metering systems... even if idle manifold pressures were to change, the closed loop of the O2 sensors would apply enough of a compensation that even open-loop operation would be fine. Of course, forget about slapping on a blower of any kind, without PCM retuning...

[CRUZTAKER]

I am no where near a Chrysler lover, I totally dislike every thing they have ever offered. Including the 300 Hemi.

But I do however truley feel sorry for their lack of modding ability. That has to suck after spending that amount of money.

[Eric91Z]

Couple quick inputs:

1) I, for one, am a fan of the 300C and considered buying one instead of going with a MM. Reasons not to: 1) no current mod potential, 2) even the Hemi in the trucks are still having problems getting the ECM cracked and they have been out for a while, 3) Daimler influence means lots of control and lots of money to change (ie: aftermarket tuners like RennTech will be doing the job, like they are on the Crossfire), Daimer rear end - who know if they will ever get a better gear ratio than the 2.5X it comes with.

2) Reasons for the MM: the MM will probably never been seen on a rental car lot, lots of mod potential, only made for 2 years - like the rental car, means not many on the road, still concerned about Chrysler reliability, 300C almost too upscale for me, good 'ole American family sedan with rocket potential of a motor

3) Speed Density vs. MAF - I have owned a '91 Camaro Z28 (3rd Gen TPI) and a '93 Camaro Z28 (4th Gen LT1). Both cars were speed density and never gave me any problems with modifications - although my mods were not that extensive internally or force fed. Both took all the bolt ons I could throw at it with only a "generic" chip - Ed Wright for the 3rd Gen and Arizona Speed & Marine for the 4th Gen. The 3rd Gen was "handicapped" with 165,000 miles on the original motor and about 3400 pounds, and only having a 305 TPI (5-speed car), but still ran mid-14's with chip, cold air intake, underdrive pulleys, adjustable fuel pressure regulator, ported upper plenum, and cat-back exhaust as the only mods (plus SPEC clutch and Pro 5.0 shifter). Was going to do a Procharger for it that would have required bigger injectors and a different chip, but never got to that point.

The '93 Z28 ran 15.1 bone stock at Bandimere Raceway in Denver Colorado (5800ft above sea level). With CAI, bigger throttle body, headers, exhaust, AS&M chip, and stock 3.23 gears, the car was running mid-13's and still pulled 28-29 mpg on the highway at 75mph. The '93 cars were known to run a little better stock-for-stock than the later MAF cars. And I frustrated many a newer LT1 F-Body owner with that and driving ability.

So, does that mean I think the SD is better than MAF? Nope. Just stating my experience. And I think that Ford has proved with the Mustang that horsepower, driveablility and MAF can live quite well together. Although, in general, EFI tuning has come a long way in the last few years to be able to see some of the horsepower numbers that cars are putting down these days and still being streetable. Even coming from the factory (the German manufacturers are beating up on each other in cars where less than 400hp seems to mean don't play with us today!!!). I think we are in a current Horsepower war:

Lightning (can't wait for the new one) vs. Dodge SRT-10
C6 Corvette Z06 (when it arrives) vs. Dodge Viper
Mercedes AMG vehicles vs. BMW M-cars (especially the new M5)
Mustang Cobra: 390hp (and said to be under rated at that)
Chrysler 300C: 340hp
Shoot even the diesels: Ford 6.0 Powerstroke: 325hp and 570ft/lbs TQ and ability to tow 19,200 pounds!!!

I like what is going on, just wish FLM had something else to offer in the 300C sedan market. Although it doesn't really matter since I will be picking up a used '04 MM when the time comes!!!!!

[maraudernkc]

Tmac, I want to do a S/C kit for those cars but there is no tuning for them and some people are saying there might no be any. I guess it's a toughf system to crack. I am sure someone will crack it.




I assume that car and engine has the same mod potential as the MM has. It is probably too early to say where they will be 2 years from now with it. If that engine on the C is 5.7 liters I would say it has a lot of potential.

[David Morton]

Another potential drawback to modding these motors is that they use a speed/density system for air measurement, instead of a mass air flow system (like the MM). I'm astonished to hear they've taken a huge step backwards in fuel management technology!

I remember in the 80s GM cars used a speed x density calculation with the old 8088 processor based computers. They used the MAP sensor to take a reading of barometric pressure on key-up and (for the duration of that cycle) all calculations were based on that reading times RPM. This worked well unless you drove it to Denver or were climbing up mountain roads. The rumor was, GM was getting about fifty claims a month from tourists at Denver dealerships that said, "Runs bad. Black smoke from exhaust. Rotten egg smell." They had keyed-up at sea-level and drove straight through to Denver and were now running rich as hell at 5000 ft. The mechanics quickly learned to write, "Performed CAMS test. No problem found." got paid 1/2 hour labor and never got out of the dispatch office with the ticket or the keys.

Don't know what Chrysler is doing but I can guess they're using a simple absolute pressure reading from outside the engine manifold and updating the density info x times a second. Still, this is a primitive method, they must be doing it to save money.

So much for the 300 as a second car. Ya' hear that Chrysler? I was gonna get one but now you pi$$ed me off. :mad:

:D

[Bigdogjim]

Some reported running low to mid 15's and others that were running in the low 14's. Needless to say the guys running in the 15's were pissed. It seems these cars have a wide margin of error when it comes to timed runs.


So who's numbers Car&Driver or Motor Trend :lol: :lol:

[Zack]

SCT is working on the tuning.... so the grapevine muttered.

[RCSignals]

SCT is working on the tuning.... so the grapevine muttered.

I suspect a lot of outfits are working to be first to crack the tuning.

[Marauder386]

I see they are sticking that motor in the Jeep Grand Cherokee too...

[bigslim]

Another potential drawback to modding these motors is that they use a speed/density system for air measurement, instead of a mass air flow system (like the MM). This means that cold-air packages and such can be much trickier to implement, as the speed/density system requires adjustments to the mixture maps in the PCM (see duhtroll's comment above), whereas the mass airflow system is adaptive (hurray for our side)...

Therefor, no JLT/PHP/K&N packages for it, either...
Someone on their site said that when they add a cold-air package the computer senses it and resets its self to run with it and with no added power.

[maraudernkc]

I am going to build a blower for this car if I can find tuning.

[bigslim]

I am going to build a blower for this car if I can find tuning.
Whipple was going to make a blower for the 300C but pulled out because they couldn't crack the code.