Some More Marauder Dyno Stuff...

[Lidio]

Its time I thought I’d post some up to the minute and fresh info about a few Marauder things I’ve got happening on the chassis dyno.

Recently I’ve made post’s or comments about how when I “rear wheel dyno” some automatic trans equipped cars, including the MM’s…. about how I lock the torque converter for the dyno runs only, and proceed to make pulls.
It’s possible that some people may think that this might be cheating or wrong in some way in terms of the numbers that come out of it. Actually though it gives a more true and accurate RWHP number because it eliminates the torque converters fluid coupling making for a more efficient + true and realistic dyno curve with less loss in the power train.

The Marauder and many other Fords that have electronic locking torque converters lock in 3rd any way when stock, so when you dyno a MM they are actually locked in 3rd for most of the pull any way. What we do on the dyno is not let it down shift out of 3rd and lock the converter the whole time its in 3rd gear for the pull on the dyno. This allows us to show a very long, broad and full pull starting literally from as low as 1300rpm’s or lower in 3rd gear.
A lot of other tuners don’t do what I do with the lock-up or lack there of on the “street”, so quite a few peoples tunes out there already are locked in 3rd when dynoing… they just have to find the sweet spot where it wont down shift out of 3rd from a roll on the dyno. We simply adjust the down shift so it doesn’t happen when on the dyno.

By the way… 3rd gear is used because it’s a 1 to 1 gear ratio and is the same as 4th gear in most 5 and 6 speed manual trans cars. 1 to1 is the preferred gear for chassis dynoing usually.

The dyno graphs I’ve posted are …. 100% stock Marauder pulls with only two things changed in the stock program.

1st I got rid of the speed limiter, other wise it would only go to about 5300rpm and then hit the approximate 120mph speed limiter.

2nd I made it not down shift out of 3rd gear once it got over 25mph and locked the converter at 24 mph.

So this made for a very broad, lugging and bogging down type of a pull starting at about 1300 rpm which is how I would do it any way if this was a stick shift type car.

For now the other pulls that have been added are my performance tune for MM’s that are totally un-modded or very mild stuff like a gear and maybe pulleys etc... I thought I’d post this too to show sort of an update about what our chip appears to be worth on stock N/A Marauders with nothing else done to them.
Remember though… its not all about what happens at the rear wheels with my MM performance tune (even though I’m posting this stuff) its about how they feel and respond when actually driving the car. There are many things I do that just cant be measured on the dyno, as I always say… “they have to be felt in the seat of your pants”.

In a few days I’m going to be posting results with a Trilogy blower starting as low as 1300rpm on the dyno and then once again showing what the K&N filter kit adds and in addition changing the blower pulley from a 3.4” down to a 3.2” as well.

And also in about 15-20 days I’m going to be dynoing a local guys MM with a Vortech installed on it along with no other performance work at all. Vortech only.
And of course I’m going to dyno it with the trans stuff as described above to show what’s going on with the HP and Torque right off idle. From my understanding the Local Vortech MM is at 8 or 9 psi of boost. The stock Trilogy’s are set at 9.5 out of the box.

This is the comparison that I think quite a few people might want to see, and others not want to see.
Unless certain people don’t want to see this… its coming in about 15-20 days.

But before the end of this week I’ll have the Trilogy vs stock MM numbers up with the 1300 rpm starting point this whole post is about.


Thanks

[FiveO]

Good info Lidio.

Thanks for the good explanation.

As always...its appreciated!

[drgnrdr33]

What he ^^^^^^ said. Its great to hear from people who know their stuff and willinging share with the rest of us. :up:

[mpearce]

Great numbers!

I haven't been dynoed...(yet) so it's cool to see what my HP & TQ numbers might be. All I can say is that with this chip and gear mod only, I took off almost a full second from my stock ET's.

15.199 @ 93.xx stock, to a 14.234 @ 97.17 = 0.965 ET reduction.

Huge on the seat of the pants feeling.

Lidio, don't tell me what I'm getting for Christmas...Heather said it's pretty cool, and it's a big surprise...so don't spill the beans!

Also looking forward to the S/C, and N/A dyno comparison numbers as well.

-Mat

[Lidio]

I now have dyno results for a totally stock Marauder and the same car with a Trilogy 9.5psi boost kit installed.

As I mentioned in earlier posts in this thread for dyno purposes only I now use a special trans program to lock the converter in 3rd gear and do not allow the trans to down shift out of 3rd once the vehicle is over 25mph or so. This makes for a very broad and long pull that’s capable of showing just how much low end torque and grunt a Trilogy kit is capable of producing on a Marauder that’s totally stock. This allows the pulls to start as low as about 1300 to 1600 rpm.

In the Rear-Wheel “TORUE” graph I’ve posted you can see how a trilogy adds over 100ft lbs of torque by about 1800rpm’s. I tried to get it to start showing results at about 1300 rpm but for some reason it wouldn’t on the pulls that had the blower on the car. Either way… its undeniable the amount of obvious low-end torque the car picked up at the very low and most used rpm range of a heavy automatic trans equipped car.

The horsepower picked up very nicely as well and carries it much, much further then with out a blower kit.
The power that this particular MM made with a stock Trilogy is a little higher then most. I’m assuming it’s because it about 45degrees outside now and about 55-63deg. in the dyno area.

These graphs shows why an entirely stock Marauder wakes up so much with nothing done to it at all except for a Trilogy blower kit all by its self. Even though this set up makes nice and respectable rear wheel HP at peak… It’s the large and early torque curve that are what get the heavy car going.

In about 10 days I’m going to show exactly what I’ve posted here and compare them to a MM with a centrifugal type of blower that’s making 9psi of boost.

Thanks

[Tallboy]

Great info, Lidio. Will the centrifugal MM have only a blower or have other mods been done?

[SergntMac]

Thank, Lidio, as usual, very valuable 411.

It's getting difficult for me to get a true 3rd gear pull from my MM. My last attempts wouldn't let me start the pull below 4400 RPM, a result of a tight 3500 stall converter and 4:10 gearing. When I'm looking for 411 on my own car, I just start out from zero and drive through the gear changes. The end results are skewed and overstated, but I'm not looking at that anyway. It's the only way I can see what's happening throughout the power range.

[Joe Walsh]

Great Data Lidio....Just when I am beginning to consider other Supercharger options, I see the 'Big Block' thumper torque the Trilogy is making at 1600 rpms and start drooling.....
I am DEFINITELY driving out to your shop next spring for a 'LIDIO' tune on my new big bore DOHC.
Now if only I can pull $6500 out of thin air for a Trilogy Kit, I'd be set!!!

[MikesMerc]

Thanks for info Lidio. It will be nice to see here in one place the kind of comparison data that supports the points I've made in many of my posts.


adds over 100ft lbs of torque by about 1800rpm’s
THAT is what its all about folks! That's some serious gain down low.



its undeniable the amount of obvious low-end torque the car picked up at the very low and most used rpm range of a heavy automatic trans equipped car
This is what most folks don't understand. Its what happens down low that effects a street car the most.

Looking forward to the rest of the comparison. :beer:

[Lidio]

Here it is…

This is the one that a lot of people are waiting to see and some probably don’t.
As slanted as this may appear to be to some because of the nature of this comparison. I’m posting it any way because I want to show the difference in low-end-torque between a roots blower and centrifugal type on a 4.6L, 4-Valve MM set up. This is the real deal between roots type blowers and Centrifugals. The main reason for this is to exemplify the difference in low end torque and off idle or as close to off idle TQ each one makes. In no way is the tune responsible for the obvious difference between the two.

First I want to say that I’ve tuned a lot of Vortech equipped cars in the last 12+ years and have really excelled in it the last couple of years because of our dyno and software we now use. Tuning a centrifugal car for us is no big deal, we’ve done hundreds with proper and expected results. The difference in low end shown here is not the tune in any way. It’s the boost, or lack there of, down low. I know I’m repeating my self here.

The tune on the MM with the Vortech shown here was done totally by me because the owner of the car wasn’t happy with the facility that installed and tuned the combination initially here in MI. Sadly as can be seen in the dyno graphs, the blower belt squealed and slipped causing a boost drop at the high end of the pull. This made the Vortech equipped car obviously not make the over all high RPM power that it was capable of. But this post and these graphs are to show the difference in low end torque between the two.

Just a side note… The blower belt on a Trilogy set up is its own stand alone 8-rib belt just for the blower. The Vortech set-up’s use one 6-rib to support all the accessories and the blower too.

Also the Cyntrifugal equipped car had long tube headers and only the stock front two cats removed, not all four. I’m not sure why this was done. I feel leaving the rest of the system stock especially the mufflers, negates the use of the headers. I also feel that the centrifugal equipped car would have made a pretty impressive peak number had the boost not fell off. As you can see in the graph, the boost was continuing to rise pretty good on the Vortech car and probably would have hit 9.5 to 10psi and a least 390-400+ RWHP.

Not to many people I know… in-fact no one I know at this time (except for JW @ SCT) is doing what I do with the trans shifts and converter here (when dynoing) . Where I set it up to “not” down shift out of third gear once its over 25mph and lock the converter the whole time. As I’ve said before, this shows a very real Torque and HP pull just like a stick shift car would on a chassis dyno. This showing of the amount of low end these have is what’s felt and used the most on heavy street cars from street light to street light and day to day!

Just for some added info and data, I also posted a dyno graph of a Stick-shift ’03 Mach-1 we did a Vortech on recently… which ran very good with long tubes and a full 2.5” exhaust with two hi-flo cats too.
The ’03-’04 Mach-1’s have the same motor as the MM’s except the stick-shift Mach-1’s got a steel crank. The MM’s and auto trans Mach’s got a cast crank.
The Mach made the power and torque over all like it should from 2000 RPM’s all the way up. The Mach makes more then the MM with a Vortech over all because of less power train losses and it’s a stick shift.

This is all good and honest data for those interested in a blower for their cars. It’s a pretty fair example of the low end grunt differences.

As can be seen in the Trilogy’s low end torque… this is the reason a Trilogy MM will run very good with nothing done to it at all other then the Trilogy blower kit. They perform very well with out a loose, after market torque-converter and do very well with the stock 3.55s in axle too. Although they wake up more with additional boost and other upgrades as well.



Thanks

[Lidio]

These are some more dyno graphs of a Mach-1 with a 32V 4.6L motor just like the MM’s. These are to show that even the Mach-1 with a Vortech and tuned right makes roughly the same low end TQ as the MM with a Vortech.


Thanks

[MARAUDER S/C #5]

Thanks for the info Lidio. I think the results are what most of us expected. :cool:

[MikesMerc]

Good info Lidio. :beer:

If I'm reading this right, it looks like the roots blower motor is putting out almost 300 ft lbs of TQ at only 2000 RPM! That's awesome low end power.

I know that some folks may not appreciate me saying this, but its these exact power production differences between the SC set ups that has me recommending the roots based kit over any others for our heavy MMs. The difference between centrifugal and roots power production down low, where most street driving occurs, is overwhelming. I really like having the power "on tap" without having to wind up the motor to the high rpm ranges to get into the boost.

Well done for putting into graphs what I've tried hard to explain to my MM brethren over the last year. Now I have a point of reference to point to. Thank you.

[maraudernkc]

Lidio, First I would like to thank you for all your time on these Dyno numbers for all the members. I am doing my Dyno run with the ProCharger kit on Dec. 28th and just want to make sure that I run my testing like you have. I want everyone to have a Dyno to Dyno compaison on all blowers. I have a couple of questions on the Roots blower Dyno run you made.

1. Was the car cold or at operating tempature?

2.Were you blowing a fan on it and if so how many HP fan?

3. What was the tempature in the shop?

4. Were you running the stock MAF?

5. Were you running the stock Air filter?

6. What octane fuel was run?

7. what fuel pump system were you running?

8. Is there anything diffrent that is not included in the Roots blower kit on the car?

9. What is your diffrential tempature at the intake under full boost using a Pyromoter?

When, I do my Dyno run on the 28th below is what I will do.

1. Lock up the converter

2. I have a 90 MM MAF

3. Twin Cobra pumps

4. 4:10 Gears

5. I will give the Inside Temp.

6. The car will be at operating temp.

7. I will be running winter grade 91 Ocatne fuel.

8. I will run 9 Pounds of Boost.

9. Rear cooling mod

10. Art Car Trans Mod(stock Converter)

11. You do not need the trans mod, rear cooling mod or 4:10 gears on any of these kits but I would consider them.

12.I will give the intake diffrential tempature at full boost using a pyromoter.

Lidio, let me know if there is anything else that you need to know or want me to do on my run. I want everyone on this site that is interested in a blower to have all there Dyno numbers equal but just remember that a Dyno is just part of the process. Driving the car is most important and also factor in the cost to HP ratio.

Thanks, Greg (maraudernkc)





Here it is…

This is the one that a lot of people are waiting to see and some probably don’t.
As slanted as this may appear to be to some because of the nature of this comparison. I’m posting it any way because I want to show the difference in low-end-torque between a roots blower and centrifugal type on a 4.6L, 4-Valve MM set up. This is the real deal between roots type blowers and Centrifugals. The main reason for this is to exemplify the difference in low end torque and off idle or as close to off idle TQ each one makes. In no way is the tune responsible for the obvious difference between the two.

First I want to say that I’ve tuned a lot of Vortech equipped cars in the last 12+ years and have really excelled in it the last couple of years because of our dyno and software we now use. Tuning a centrifugal car for us is no big deal, we’ve done hundreds with proper and expected results. The difference in low end shown here is not the tune in any way. It’s the boost, or lack there of, down low. I know I’m repeating my self here.

The tune on the MM with the Vortech shown here was done totally by me because the owner of the car wasn’t happy with the facility that installed and tuned the combination initially here in MI. Sadly as can be seen in the dyno graphs, the blower belt squealed and slipped causing a boost drop at the high end of the pull. This made the Vortech equipped car obviously not make the over all high RPM power that it was capable of. But this post and these graphs are to show the difference in low end torque between the two.

Just a side note… The blower belt on a Trilogy set up is its own stand alone 8-rib belt just for the blower. The Vortech set-up’s use one 6-rib to support all the accessories and the blower too.

Also the Cyntrifugal equipped car had long tube headers and only the stock front two cats removed, not all four. I’m not sure why this was done. I feel leaving the rest of the system stock especially the mufflers, negates the use of the headers. I also feel that the centrifugal equipped car would have made a pretty impressive peak number had the boost not fell off. As you can see in the graph, the boost was continuing to rise pretty good on the Vortech car and probably would have hit 9.5 to 10psi and a least 390-400+ RWHP.

Not to many people I know… in-fact no one I know at this time (except for JW @ SCT) is doing what I do with the trans shifts and converter here (when dynoing) . Where I set it up to “not” down shift out of third gear once its over 25mph and lock the converter the whole time. As I’ve said before, this shows a very real Torque and HP pull just like a stick shift car would on a chassis dyno. This showing of the amount of low end these have is what’s felt and used the most on heavy street cars from street light to street light and day to day!

Just for some added info and data, I also posted a dyno graph of a Stick-shift ’03 Mach-1 we did a Vortech on recently… which ran very good with long tubes and a full 2.5” exhaust with two hi-flo cats too.
The ’03-’04 Mach-1’s have the same motor as the MM’s except the stick-shift Mach-1’s got a steel crank. The MM’s and auto trans Mach’s got a cast crank.
The Mach made the power and torque over all like it should from 2000 RPM’s all the way up. The Mach makes more then the MM with a Vortech over all because of less power train losses and it’s a stick shift.

This is all good and honest data for those interested in a blower for their cars. It’s a pretty fair example of the low end grunt differences.

As can be seen in the Trilogy’s low end torque… this is the reason a Trilogy MM will run very good with nothing done to it at all other then the Trilogy blower kit. They perform very well with out a loose, after market torque-converter and do very well with the stock 3.55s in axle too. Although they wake up more with additional boost and other upgrades as well.



Thanks

[TripleTransAm]

Great info, Lidio. Thanks for posting it. Looks to me that if the belt hadn't been slipping on the Vortech, the actual peak power numbers would have been slightly in favour of the Vortech, since it would appear the torque production would surpass the Eaton above 5500.

Amazing how two different approaches can yield similar great results on the track: one would think the softer power delivery of the Vortech would make it a more consistent bracket racer, keeping the all-out punch for when the car has hooked up, but the more ample low end of the Eaton with a good gripping launch would give it the chance to get a head start before the Vortech came on stronger at the top and hunted it down.

As for preference on the street, I can see where either could be appreciated. 300 lb-ft (at the wheels, more like 350-375 lb-ft at the tranny!) at such a low RPM is going to be more brutal on parts, but for those looking for immediate punch at all times, I can see where it would be preferred. Likewise, there are those who prefer working closer to the MM's stock behaviour around town and keeping the pounding power delivery to when it's really needed, and might appreciate perhaps less of a brutal torque delivery at low RPMs.

In any case, it just sounds like two different but equally tasty flavours of MM fun: awesome and fabulous.

[sailsmen]

Good information Lidio, it's ashame the Vortec wasn't running as it should.

There are continuing references to "street", this concerns me. My N/A MM has more than enough torque to do anything that is required on the street.

With street racing and agressive driving being the number one killer, more than DWI, I hope people are saving it for the track, particularly those that have increased the RWHP by 150+ and who are still running on stock brakes.

[tmac1337]

Maraudernkc, if I remember right your kit on 2 first time pulls made 364 tq and 397 hp, and this at the very beginning of the test and tune process. I'm interested to see your numbers on the 28th after the kit has been developing. It seems to me the centrifugal is the best daily driver. I think you posted that your car now smokes the tires from a standstill. If that is true then it appears that the Procharger Kit makes plenty of low end TQ too(with more to come hopefully at the next tune). So how much low end TQ is needed if your going to just sit there and burn all the rubber off the tires anyway? Is it beneficial to save some tq a little later? Although the comparison data is great, how come this was not done a significant amount of time ago as the Vortech kit has been available as well. The only new factor is that your kit is shortly due for a much better cost to hp ratio with easier and less expensive installation, not to mention the great results so far.

Maraudernkc, a couple of questions about your kit.

1. Is it smoking the tires from a standstill and launching much faster than stock?

2. Although your kit has not been on a car thats been to a track, how would you describe your accelleration now from hitting it at different speeds?

3. Are you accellerating to speeds up in the holy crap range before you brake but have a lot more on tap?

4. Your impressions from stock vs. blown.

5. Driveability: At normal driving can you tell the car is blown, or can you only tell when you punch it, not affecting the cars use as a daily driver?

6. If the car has great driveability, and performs when the blower kicks in, do you feel the car will have all the HP and low end TQ a car enthusiast will ever need driving his/her MM around on the street? (This question does not apply to track results where the fastest time on the planet is sought).

7. After reviewing the graphs posted this thread, and looking at the boost levels ref. eaton vs vortech, at 2000 rpm the eaton is making 6 psi whereas the vortech is making 1 psi at 2000 rpm also, isnt this hard on the car as a daily driver/pistons constantly taking this abuse? At 4000 rpm the eaton is making 8 psi vs the vortech 4 psi at the same 4000 rpm.

[TripleTransAm]

7. After reviewing the graphs posted this thread, and looking at the boost levels ref. eaton vs vortech, at 2000 rpm the eaton is making 6 psi whereas the vortech is making 1 psi at 2000 rpm also, isnt this hard on the car as a daily driver/pistons constantly taking this abuse? At 4000 rpm the eaton is making 8 psi vs the vortech 4 psi at the same 4000 rpm.


This only occurs at WOT, by the way, so it's not like 364 days of daily driving (1 day at the track :D ) will mean 364 days of constant 6 psi. Just to put it into perspective, although I imagine part-throttle boost will probably be higher with the Eaton at those lower RPMs. In any case, high boost at high RPM is probably fairly abusive to stock internals as well. Either way, you're producing way more power than stock.

[Jerry Barnes]

Lidio,

Great job! This kind of data is always very helpful for people wanting to understand how to modify their cars and what approach to take. As always your approach and professionalism is second to none! I hope everyone appreciates the efforts you put in to help understand the value of each type of modification and its subsequent bottom line impact on the vehicles performance.

You Da Man!

Jerry

[FordNut]

In any case, it just sounds like two different but equally tasty flavours of MM fun: awesome and fabulous.
Exactly! either way is great.

[TechHeavy]

Lidio,

Great job! This kind of data is always very helpful for people wanting to understand how to modify their cars and what approach to take. As always your approach and professionalism is second to none! I hope everyone appreciates the efforts you put in to help understand the value of each type of modification and its subsequent bottom line impact on the vehicles performance.

You Da Man!

Jerry
Here, here! :) Like Mike said before me, I know have a thread to send friends with blower questions. Great information! You rock.

[MikesMerc]

After reviewing the graphs posted this thread, and looking at the boost levels ref. eaton vs vortech, at 2000 rpm the eaton is making 6 psi whereas the vortech is making 1 psi at 2000 rpm also, isnt this hard on the car as a daily driver/pistons constantly taking this abuse?

Nope.

When the throttle is closed enough to create a vacuum in the intake (pretty much anything less than a half a pedal) the boost is "by-passed" internally within the eaton blower and the motor sees zero boost.

Opening up the throttle plate eliminates the intake vacuum, closes the by-pass, and only then intorduces boost to the motor.

Even better with the roots blower, its easy to modulate the boost and power your making. With 6 psi of boost on tap, you can deliver none, some, or all of it depending on how much you choose to give it.

There is absolutely nothing aggressive about the power unless you want it to be.


Furthermore, saying that you can have "too much power" down low is just silly in a 4500lb car. Unless you are giving up tons of TQ on the top end where the motor completely falls over (like a diesel motor does) there is absolutely no reason to not want the power down low. LOL....if traction is the issue, then just address the traction issue:D Better yet, there is never a need to give it any more gas than you want to anyway. Like I said, the power is easily modulated with your foot. But, that's all moot anyway. With a 4500lb car, you need all the down low TQ you can get.



There are continuing references to "street", this concerns me.

As far as referring to "street" driving, that is exactly what is being referred to...street driving. That's actually the beauty of having the power down low. There is no need to rev the motor up to get the power. No need to break any speed limits. The "push in the back" torque feels great at low speeds and low rpms. Its the "big block" feeling. If you don't get that, well, I'm not gonna bother explaining:)

[Tallboy]

Here it is…

This is the one that a lot of people are waiting to see and some probably don’t.



ThanksBingo...:burnout: As Rick said, the results were as expected. Thanks for taking the time and trouble to do all this, Lidio. And, thanks for re-affirming my choice.:up:

[MikesMerc]

Here it is…

This is the one that a lot of people are waiting to see and some probably don’t.



Bingo...:burnout: As Rick said, the results were as expected.

LOL...yeah its time for me to retire from this thread. I'm sure there will still be a few more folks who are uncomfortable with the dyno results that will come along and try to put some kind of "spin" on it all. But, the results speak for themselves.

Time to split :burnout: :burnout:

[Tallboy]

Right behind ya...:burnout: :burnout:

[tmac1337]

Jimmy crack corn......

[maraudernkc]

Tmac
Maraudernkc, if I remember right your kit on 2 first time pulls made 364 tq and 397 hp, and this at the very beginning of the test and tune process. I'm interested to see your numbers on the 28th after the kit has been developing. It seems to me the centrifugal is the best daily driver. I think you posted that your car now smokes the tires from a standstill. If that is true then it appears that the Procharger Kit makes plenty of low end TQ too(with more to come hopefully at the next tune). So how much low end TQ is needed if your going to just sit there and burn all the rubber off the tires anyway? Is it beneficial to save some tq a little later? Although the comparison data is great, how come this was not done a significant amount of time ago as the Vortech kit has been available as well. The only new factor is that your kit is shortly due for a much better cost to hp ratio with easier and less expensive installation, not to mention the great results so far.

Maraudernkc, a couple of questions about your kit.

1. Is it smoking the tires from a standstill and launching much faster than stock? Yes you can light then up however I have not measured how far.

2. Although your kit has not been on a car thats been to a track, how would you describe your accelleration now from hitting it at different speeds?It's not the same car.

3. Are you accellerating to speeds up in the holy crap range before you brake but have a lot more on tap?I am upgrading my brakes very soon.

4. Your impressions from stock vs. blown.I just bought another car because this thing is so much fun that I want to keep it perfect and keep it for along time.

5. Driveability: At normal driving can you tell the car is blown, or can you only tell when you punch it, not affecting the cars use as a daily driver?It feels a little diffrent but it has 150 more RWHP most of the diffrence is the neck snapping 1-2 shift. You can't feel the blower until you unleash the boost.

6. If the car has great driveability, and performs when the blower kicks in, do you feel the car will have all the HP and low end TQ a car enthusiast will ever need driving his/her MM around on the street? (This question does not apply to track results where the fastest time on the planet is sought).I just sold my 2005 GRand Prix GTP which was supercharged by an Eaton Roots blower and they run well. I would have to say the Eaton would probably do the longer burnout. Yes a centrifical blower has enoughf low end for me but maybe not for the next person.

7. After reviewing the graphs posted this thread, and looking at the boost levels ref. eaton vs vortech, at 2000 rpm the eaton is making 6 psi whereas the vortech is making 1 psi at 2000 rpm also, isnt this hard on the car as a daily driver/pistons constantly taking this abuse? At 4000 rpm the eaton is making 8 psi vs the vortech 4 psi at the same 4000 rpm.The roots blower is positive displacement blower and produces much more boost down low but also will have a higher diffirential tempature at the intake which means that you have to back out timming. The cooler the air comming into the motor the more timing you can run which=HP

As always it comes down to Roots vs. Centrifical.

You need to factor in what you want and what you want to spend. There is alot of good information here on this site and I don't condone anyone who has a roots blower. If you have a MM at it's blown let's go have some fun:beer:

[Lidio]

Lidio, First I would like to thank you for all your time on these Dyno numbers for all the members. I am doing my Dyno run with the ProCharger kit on Dec. 28th and just want to make sure that I run my testing like you have. I want everyone to have a Dyno to Dyno compaison on all blowers. I have a couple of questions on the Roots blower Dyno run you made.

1. Was the car cold or at operating tempature?

2.Were you blowing a fan on it and if so how many HP fan?

3. What was the tempature in the shop?

4. Were you running the stock MAF?

5. Were you running the stock Air filter?

6. What octane fuel was run?

7. what fuel pump system were you running?

8. Is there anything diffrent that is not included in the Roots blower kit on the car?

9. What is your diffrential tempature at the intake under full boost using a Pyromoter?

When, I do my Dyno run on the 28th below is what I will do.

1. Lock up the converter

2. I have a 90 MM MAF

3. Twin Cobra pumps

4. 4:10 Gears

5. I will give the Inside Temp.

6. The car will be at operating temp.

7. I will be running winter grade 91 Ocatne fuel.

8. I will run 9 Pounds of Boost.

9. Rear cooling mod

10. Art Car Trans Mod(stock Converter)

11. You do not need the trans mod, rear cooling mod or 4:10 gears on any of these kits but I would consider them.

12.I will give the intake diffrential tempature at full boost using a pyromoter.

Lidio, let me know if there is anything else that you need to know or want me to do on my run. I want everyone on this site that is interested in a blower to have all there Dyno numbers equal but just remember that a Dyno is just part of the process. Driving the car is most important and also factor in the cost to HP ratio.

Thanks, Greg (maraudernkc)


1. Was the car cold or at operating tempature?

....Totally warmed up, I always make sure they've been run and roled for a while before I begin to make pulls on the dyno.

2.Were you blowing a fan on it and if so how many HP fan?

....The fan in front of the car is a 36" barrel style fan, dont know the HP on it.

3. What was the tempature in the shop?

....The temp in the shop was about 60-65 degrees

4. Were you running the stock MAF?

....Yes the Trilogy's use the stock 80mm MAF and so did the Vortech MM too.

5. Were you running the stock Air filter?

....The Trilogy car used the totally stock air-box and factory filter element.

6. What octane fuel was run?

....Locally available 93 octane. No doubt winter blend this time of the year.

7. what fuel pump system were you running?

....Stock, in tank with Trilogy supplied Boost-a-pump.

8. Is there anything diffrent that is not included in the Roots blower kit on the car?

.... Absolutly nothing above and beyond the stock Trilogy kit.

9. What is your diffrential tempature at the intake under full boost using a Pyromoter?

....Sorry, havent checked that. Although with the '03 Cobra intercooler system included in the Trilogys I'm sure the inlet temps after the blower are only about 15-25 degrees above ambient which is what I see on Cobra's.

[Lidio]

One thing I have to say is that this will be spun (as mentioned) into different directions because of differnt beliefs, philosophy’s and opinions. I don’t want this to turn into a ugly debate about the two most popular blower types for the Marauder’s. Just showing it like it is when it comes to low end grunt and the most used area of a MM torque range.

I’ve been installing centrifugal on the Mustangs for years. I was one of Vortech’s first direct dealers back in 1992. Dealer number 4 to be exact. When the 4.6L’s came along with their smaller cubes and less torque then we were used to in the Mustangs with 5.0’s…. We did well with the centrifugals, but they didn’t exactly fix what was wrong with these little 281 cubic inch motors. Low end torque or lack there of. The MM to me falls victim to this more then any thing for obvious reasons….. heavy.
I still love and push the Vortech’s in the Mustang scene and now though I also push the Kenne Bells too. These are screw type blowers, they make a lot of low end torque but don’t fall off in the high revs like the stock Eaton’s. Overwhelmingly the KB’s are liked better because of their instant gratification and low end torque. Whether it’s a stick or auto trans car. The only reason we don’t sell more of the KB’s is the end cost after buying the kit and paying install labor is much higher at this time.

The Trilogy kit does in no way makes to much, unmanageable TQ down low. It’s just right with the stock Torque converter and the stock 3.55 gears. And as some one already posted, if it spins the tires to much…. Fix the traction problem, not reduce the power or add less power!
Remember if this is some what of a dollar per performance comparison thing. Then it must be mentioned again that the Trilogy/Roots type blower in a MM performs very well in the real world with no other changes, only the blower kit. A centrifugal with a stock converter and non big gears in the axle has to “come on”.

I guess what I’ve delicately tried to say is that a centrifugal on a MM with no loose torque convter and tall axle gears will not feel the same or as good from street light to street light when horsing around. This is why my dynoing methods with the converter locked in 3rd and starting very low in the rpm’s is to show what you working with every day in a MM that’s mostly stock as far as other power train changes go.

I also want to say that both blowers add HP and TQ to a stock MM engine. Both blowers can lead to problems with a poor tune. But with proper tunes we’ve already had great dependability with Trilogy’s on lots of MM’s and I’ve had tons of Vortech equipped Mustangs with great long lasting results as well.

[MI2QWK4U]

Well said Lidio, I think you explained it better than anyone previously with your posts in this thread. Most folks dont know what kind of time and energy Lidio puts into these tests. He is absolutely meticulous, and pays a lot of attention to the smallest detains in an effort to be as fair as humanly possible. He really gets concerned when his findings may not set well with some, and draw fire, but what he produces are honest, well thought out results that are both factual and repeatable.
Lid, when things settle out with the new crib, KFC is on me! Good job on the detailed report.

[Smokie]

... but they didn’t exactly fix what was wrong with these little 281 cubic inch motors. Low end torque or lack there of...Lidio I have enjoyed your thread and the way you document everything you do. I feel compelled to come in defense of that little 281. How Ford chose to release the MM. does an injustice to that little 281, I changed the exhaust on mine (SVO shorties) the airbox (PHP) and U/D's....all else is what Ford put in it. I have 265 ft/lbs of torque at 2000 rpm's, arrive at 300 tq at 3850 and remain above 300 to 5200 rpm's.

If I stab the pedal from a dead stop the car will spin the tires without moving for about 1 to 2 seconds and gradually hook-up and start to bolt....I have; in my younger days owned or driven big block V-8's and with the exception of the 440 six-pack none of them bolted from a dead start any better than my little 281. :D

[Joe Walsh]

Here it is…

This is the one that a lot of people are waiting to see and some probably don’t.
As slanted as this may appear to be to some because of the nature of this comparison. I’m posting it any way because I want to show the difference in low-end-torque between a roots blower and centrifugal type on a 4.6L, 4-Valve MM set up. This is the real deal between roots type blowers and Centrifugals. The main reason for this is to exemplify the difference in low end torque and off idle or as close to off idle TQ each one makes. In no way is the tune responsible for the obvious difference between the two.

First I want to say that I’ve tuned a lot of Vortech equipped cars in the last 12+ years and have really excelled in it the last couple of years because of our dyno and software we now use. Tuning a centrifugal car for us is no big deal, we’ve done hundreds with proper and expected results. The difference in low end shown here is not the tune in any way. It’s the boost, or lack there of, down low. I know I’m repeating my self here.

The tune on the MM with the Vortech shown here was done totally by me because the owner of the car wasn’t happy with the facility that installed and tuned the combination initially here in MI. Sadly as can be seen in the dyno graphs, the blower belt squealed and slipped causing a boost drop at the high end of the pull. This made the Vortech equipped car obviously not make the over all high RPM power that it was capable of. But this post and these graphs are to show the difference in low end torque between the two.

Just a side note… The blower belt on a Trilogy set up is its own stand alone 8-rib belt just for the blower. The Vortech set-up’s use one 6-rib to support all the accessories and the blower too.

Also the Cyntrifugal equipped car had long tube headers and only the stock front two cats removed, not all four. I’m not sure why this was done. I feel leaving the rest of the system stock especially the mufflers, negates the use of the headers. I also feel that the centrifugal equipped car would have made a pretty impressive peak number had the boost not fell off. As you can see in the graph, the boost was continuing to rise pretty good on the Vortech car and probably would have hit 9.5 to 10psi and a least 390-400+ RWHP.

Not to many people I know… in-fact no one I know at this time (except for JW @ SCT) is doing what I do with the trans shifts and converter here (when dynoing) . Where I set it up to “not” down shift out of third gear once its over 25mph and lock the converter the whole time. As I’ve said before, this shows a very real Torque and HP pull just like a stick shift car would on a chassis dyno. This showing of the amount of low end these have is what’s felt and used the most on heavy street cars from street light to street light and day to day!

Just for some added info and data, I also posted a dyno graph of a Stick-shift ’03 Mach-1 we did a Vortech on recently… which ran very good with long tubes and a full 2.5” exhaust with two hi-flo cats too.
The ’03-’04 Mach-1’s have the same motor as the MM’s except the stick-shift Mach-1’s got a steel crank. The MM’s and auto trans Mach’s got a cast crank.
The Mach made the power and torque over all like it should from 2000 RPM’s all the way up. The Mach makes more then the MM with a Vortech over all because of less power train losses and it’s a stick shift.

This is all good and honest data for those interested in a blower for their cars. It’s a pretty fair example of the low end grunt differences.

As can be seen in the Trilogy’s low end torque… this is the reason a Trilogy MM will run very good with nothing done to it at all other then the Trilogy blower kit. They perform very well with out a loose, after market torque-converter and do very well with the stock 3.55s in axle too. Although they wake up more with additional boost and other upgrades as well.



Thanks

I was just reviewing the boost curve that Lidio posted a few weeks ago and I have a question concerning the Centrifugal Superchargers......
The Centrifugal S/C boost curve rises with RPM and peaks at redline.
i.e. A 9 psi Centrifugal S/C does not make 9 psi boost until the very top of the rpm range.
Why can't you install a 14 psi Centrifugal S/C pulley and a bypass valve set at 9 psi?? That way you will get 9 psi boost much sooner in the rpm range and hold 9 psi until redline??
That's what all Turbocharger systems do....build boost to a preset limit, then the bypass/blow-off valve holds that level of boost until redline.

[MikesMerc]

There are a number of issues...

First, most by pass/blow off valve designs are meant for reducing huge back pressure (and the associated high reverse flow pressure on the impeller) that occurs when the throttle is closed....not regualting boost. Large levels of unreleived back pressure cause tremendous heat and can damage the blower at higher cfm levels when the throttle slams shut. Accordingly, most by pass and blow off valves are controlled by a vacuum line off the intake rather than by actually regulating boost pressure. When the throttle is closed enough to produce an intake vacuum, the vacuum line holds the by pass open and releives boost pressure.

Second, assuming you can find a pressure regulated valve, you'd have to make sure it is a by pass as the MM runs with a MAF. Once air is "sampled" by the meter it cannot be discharged into the atmoshpere. The draw back here is that the "by pass" is not as effective as a blow off valve as a by pass only recirculates the boost pressure (vs blowing it off into the atmosphere).


Third, you'd be grossly overspinning the blower at higher rpm ranges. Because a centrifugal blower makes power exponentially with higher rpms, the blower would spin right past its safe impeller rpm range before you ran it up much at all if you began with 9psi of effective boost at lower rpms. All the "rush" of boost that comes on that way is fun, there is a limit as how to apply it.

Last, you'd be making serious heat with a blower along with overspinning it if lower rpms produced boost. Again, the exponential boost relation to impeller rpm is the killer.

[TJCOX]

I need a LIDIO TUNE. How do I go about purchasing one etc? I have a SCT SCANNER WITH A D.R. tune installed.
Thanks!

T.

[jwibbity]

this thread is over 9 years old!!!!:flamer::flamer:

[martyo]

I need a LIDIO TUNE. How do I go about purchasing one etc? I have a SCT SCANNER WITH A D.R. tune installed.
Thanks!

T.

Call Dennis. He would be happy to TAKE your money.

[lji372]

If you send him your tuner he'll unlock it :lol:

What he'll do with it after that is anyone's guess

[clmrt]

I need a LIDIO TUNE. How do I go about purchasing one etc? I have a SCT SCANNER WITH A D.R. tune installed.
Thanks!

T.

Lidio Iacobelli
Alternativeauto.com

(586)-949-7505

[martyo]

If you send him your tuner he'll unlock it :lol:

What he'll do with it after that is anyone's guess

***snicker***

[Marauderjack]

You guys are just plain MEAN!!:eek:

Subscribing to see where this might go.....(grin)!!;)

[martyo]

You guys are just plain MEAN!!:eek:

Subscribing to see where this might go.....(grin)!!;)

Don't confuse "mean" with "experience."

[jflave]

Don't confuse "mean" with "experience."

Kinder words were never spoken :nocomm:

[martyo]

Kinder words were never spoken :nocomm:

You $hould $ee what ha$ happened $ince your debacle!!