Hole in block

[MarauderMark]

Here's a pic of the damage.thought i'd show you guys.. :)

[Bradley G]

how did this happen?

[FiveO]

Yikes.

Like Brad said...how'd it happen?

Is this your car?

[Marauder8]

Wowwwwwwwwwwwwwww!!!!!!!!!!

[Glenn]

Sorry about your engine. Looks like you have done some mods to the underside. I did not recognize it as a MM engine.

Glenn

[hitchhiker]

Here's a pic of the damage.thought i'd show you guys.. :)

R U Covered under warranty with the S/C?

I hope they fix it for you!

This type of thing is what scares me about S/C'ing an aluminum engine.

Best Regards,

David

[Haggis]

I do not believe that is a MM engine. But, I am not an expert. I cannot identify that bottom engine area compared to mine???

Glenn

Not to flame you Glenn, but I personnally know Mark and he has no reason to lie to us. If he says thats his engine block, then that is his engine block.

Mark, how did this happen? That really sucks man. Did you hear or notice anthing different in the last couple of days or in the last hour before this happened? Which cylinder rod was it? Damn :censor: gremlins!!! :mad2:

[jgc61sr2002]

Mark - Sorry to hear about your Marauder. :(

[Bluerauder]

Here's a pic of the damage.thought i'd show you guys.. :)
Dayum, Mark that picture brought tears to my eyes. :( Sorry to hear about your continuing issues with the MM. Hope all sorts itself out for you and Peg. What a shame.

On the bright side, maybe you can start shopping around for a 5.0 to stick in there. :D

[Eric91Z]

Looks like some aftermarket braided lines running down there: fuel, cooling, etc????

[NAVCHAP]

Condolences, hope you can get this resolved to your satisfaction. -kjs-

[CRUZTAKER]

Hey Mark....I hear through the grapevine this was a result of a Meziere Electric Water Pump failure.

Please elaborate as I have one waiting to be installed....and as I was first feeling...I am feeling again...mayby this pump just isn't worth the risk. :dunno:

[MikesMerc]

Man, that is indeed a bummer! Sorry to hear about the sad news.


This type of thing is what scares me about S/C'ing an aluminum engine.


It really has little to do with it being supercharged with an aluminum. When bad things happen, aluminum block or not, they happen. I've seen a ton of broken iron blocks too. With the proper tune, the aluminum blocks do just fine supercharged. There are hundreds upon hundreds of blown aluminum blocked 4.6 mustangs running around doing just fine.

What something like this does indicate, it is that ***** happens and we all need to be prepared for the possibility


Mark, maybe this is an excuse to build a bullet proof bottem end:)

[Seneca]

Mark i'm so sorry to see the pic of your engine.. Hope everything works out.. If you need anything buddy let me know.. :depress: :(

[Bradley G]

Hey Mike ,

can you comment on the difference between broken iron blocks and Bullit proofing a cast block? does this have to do with machining to closer tolerances or different internals?This is not a bust I really don't know.I keep hearing Proper Tune is the Key.If it was a electric water pump that failed as temps rose would'nt the Failsafe mode be activated to save/preserve internals.Any insight is appreciated
Bradley G

Man, that is indeed a bummer! Sorry to hear about the sad news.



It really has little to do with it being supercharged with an aluminum. When bad things happen, aluminum block or not, they happen. I've seen a ton of broken iron blocks too. With the proper tune, the aluminum blocks do just fine supercharged. There are hundreds upon hundreds of blown aluminum blocked 4.6 mustangs running around doing just fine.

What something like this does indicate, it is that ***** happens and we all need to be prepared for the possibility


Mark, maybe this is an excuse to build a bullet proof bottem end:)

[Bigdogjim]

Not much anyone can say:mad:

We all feel for you.

Hope this works out in your favor.

[BillyGman]

Mark, you said that you blew up a sparkplug. I've been told that this sometimes happens from bad engine pinging. And last week you mentioned something in one of your posts about buying new head gaskets, and blown head gaskets are also one of the first things to occur as a result of pinging. Did you ever use low octane gasoline? Either way, I'm very sorry to hear of your misfortune Mark.But I also am very curious about this occurence. I hope that you don't mind my questions.

[hitchhiker]

Man, that is indeed a bummer! Sorry to hear about the sad news.



It really has little to do with it being supercharged with an aluminum. When bad things happen, aluminum block or not, they happen. I've seen a ton of broken iron blocks too. With the proper tune, the aluminum blocks do just fine supercharged. There are hundreds upon hundreds of blown aluminum blocked 4.6 mustangs running around doing just fine.

What something like this does indicate, it is that ***** happens and we all need to be prepared for the possibility


Mark, maybe this is an excuse to build a bullet proof bottem end:)
I am very sorry to hear of this unfortunate situation.

I bought my extended warranty mainly due to the fact that our engines are aluminum.

I have thought about the S/C options a lot, but this kind of thing makes me wonder. I am aware of the fact that many of our MM bretheren with S/C's engines do tend to drive them a little hard.

I don't presume to be an expert on the whole S/C thing. As long as the bank still owns a portion of my Marauder, I must be cautious with mods.

My plans are to do the SCT chip, Under-Drive Pulleys, and posible the 4:10 gears. The car is really quite satisfying to drive in its stock configuration and I'm only looking for a little more HP and the shift point/TC lockup reprogramming available with a good tuning, probably from Lidio.

It would be very informative if Lidio and Dennis would weigh in on this situation.

There was a thread several months ago where a member was in the repair shop of a dealer and was shown a new DTR with a hole in the engine block due to over-taching the engine while it was still cold. Also, I know that electric Water pumps are often used on drag cars to free up some net HP, but I am not inclined to endorse them for constant street use. I just don't trust them.

This should prove to be an interesting and informative discussion.

Best Regards,

David

[merc]

Mark, this truly brings tears to my eyes. It’s Christmas time and Old St. Nick doesn’t have room on his sleigh for a short block modular motor. I have not be able to sleep in the last couple of nights thinking about how much fun we had Sunday night and now this. When it rains, it pours, and you have had a flood of problems with your car in the last six months. I will mail you some cash to help with the purchase of a new block. Maybe the C.A.M. group could start a fundraiser similar to the Super Charger raffle on this site. It’s just an idea, but any thing can happen. I was able to locate a used engine at Kar Kaft. It’s under 1,000 dollars and you could be back on the road soon with a little help from your friends.

http://www.karkraft.com/used_core_engines.htm






:pimp:

[SergntMac]

Take another peek?

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/attachment.php?attachmentid=50 90

This is what a Marauder engine looks like when laying on you back and peeking at it from behind the right front wheel. The point of view here is "up close and personal" and taken from under the front passenger's feet. Seeking the real detail, Mark focused so upclose that we lose our perspective. Nonetheless, he gave us great detail we can work with too.

The braided lines you see running from left to right across the bottom of the pic, are evidence of a DR tranny cooler upgrade. The semi-brown and smooth round surface in the upper left corner of the pic, around 11 o'clock, is the starter motor. What confuses us, visually, is the chunk of metal resting about about 4 o'clock...This is the chunk of block that blew out, and it doesn't belong here, under normal circumstances.

In brief..."Mark threw a rod." Last, or, second to last cylinder on the passenger side of the block. Uncommon when looking at repair records, most 4.6L DOHC engines give up the 7 or 8 rods first, but uncommon doesn't mean unreal.

You may be surprized to learn that the engine will run like this. Not well, and not long, but enough to wheel the car into and out of crimped spaces when cold. It will "lope" like an engine with a bad plug, because that cylinder is dead, but it will limp along.

Mark needs a new block, no getting around this. If I were Mark, my first decision would be about keeping the car. I'd sit down around my kitchen table with family, and cross examine everything about keeping this MM long term, or, fixing this engine and offering the car up for sale, once the rebuild is complete and the car is running good again. Answer question #1, and the answer to question #2...What/how to fix this, will be a better answer.

Mark, thanks for listening, "we got your back" on this. Do some shopping, mouse around the web. All is not lost, hopless, or, all that expensive. Talk to Mad3R, Phil Shovar, about his experience. You're not alone.

[Mike Poore]

Here's a pic of the damage.thought i'd show you guys.. :)
Oh. man, sorry to see that, buddy. It's hard for me to figure where on the engine we're looking, but I assume the dripping green stuff's antifreeze. I hope you win Logan's supercharger, then you could sell it and fix the broken motor.:depress:

[Bluerauder]

It’s under 1,000 dollars and you could be back on the road soon with a little help from your friends.
Count me in as well ... :)

[MikesMerc]

Hey Mike ,

can you comment on the difference between broken iron blocks and Bullit proofing a cast block? does this have to do with machining to closer tolerances or different internals?

No, most of the problem stems from the fact that cast iron blocks are just stronger than aluminum blocks. Many report trouble in the area of the near the mains (the channel that holds the crank) where the webbing holds the bottom end together. Weakness in material strength there can be a problem when pushing serious HP through the block.

Other areas of concern in our MM blocks are the powdered rods and hypereutic pistons (versus the much stronger "I-beam" and "H-beam" rods and forged pistons).

All that said, the aluminum mod motor is able to withstand some serious power. What it CANNOT tolerate well is a poor tune with a power adder which can cause detonation, or any other problems which bring the block, crank, and rods under extreme duress. The bottom line is that there is just less margin for error with the aluminum mod motors.


As far as Mark's bad fortune....man that just sucks:( None of my blather above makes for any consolation. But, I do understand the pain. It reminds me of when I spun a bearing on my 91 5.0 with only 12,000 miles on the motor. It was earth shattering for me as I didn't have the money to fix it at the time.

I'm certainly not aware of Mark's finances, but it wouldn't be a bad time to beef up the bottom if he can. Its one of the few ways to make a positive opportunity out of something bad.

[Petrograde]

wow,... sorry to hear that man,.. that REALLY sucks! :(

[HwyCruiser]

Mark,

Sorry bud. :(

I hope you can get on with enjoying the holiday with your family. Let the MM sit until you have a definate plan on what to do about it. Mac gave some good advice there and is good for a bunch more I would think. I'd also be listening hard to what DR has to say.

- JD

[Dennis Reinhart]

Here's a pic of the damage.thought i'd show you guys.. :)I talked to Mark yesterday, and today he told me he never heard the car detonate or spark knock, as far as I know he has never had a problem with the Mezirie electric water pump. From what I do know he originally had overheating issue which led to a bad head gasket, on the driver side, so from this information this was probably do to over heating, it had nothing to do with spark knock or detonation.

The drivers head as we all know is the problem head for the Marauder Mach 1 and 03 Cobra, there is a specific TSB addressing this issue the dealer replaced the head gaskets so its very difficult to determine the exact cause of the failure, Mark had no problems with the car till after they replaced the head gasket, and he took the car to the track right after this where he ran 12.1 seconds and from what he told me had a bad plug he never saw the plug so I am not sure what happened normally if it detonates it can break the porcelain insulator and it will slide down the electrode and short the plug out or it can damage the electrode again he never got the plug back that the dealer replaced,

So its very hard to say why the engine failed it may have been a bad rod plain and simple. Mark has had an SC on his car for seven months, the AF was perfect low 11's when it left here, and the car ran fine with no problems aside from not having enough rear tire

Even with that and he has never had an issue with this car up to the head gasket, any number of things could arise from removing the heads, but without having the car I cannot speculate on this. So the least expensive fix is go with a new short block with good pistons and rods, do a valve job on the heads and put good fasteners back in it along with billet oil pump gears and this will make an engine that will be durable, you can turn the boost up if you want, or stay with a 3.61 Pulley.

Again it is unfortunate its happened but there are a lot of Marauders out there with blowers on them and some have over 30,000 on there odometer and there are some out there on stock motors that are making crazy RWHP # so for what ever reason its happened.

[MarauderMark]

First off you guys are really great bunch of people.You guys rock :rock: !!!!! You know some people come home from work and go hang out with friends ,,, me i go on here to hang out with my friends!!!:::wiping eyes:::lol:

Ok heres the skimmy driving home yesterday cruising at 75 / 80 mph all of the sudden theres a slight bang and smoke pouring out of the back and the sound of like little rocks hitting the under carriage of the car i pull over i was thinking (hopeing) that sound was the belt breaking up under the hood.as i pull over the engine shut off.all the antifreeze was pouring out .which reminds me of a joke .Ya know how to make antifreeze?? Take away her nightie..ok back to the story .as me and my son are waiting for the tow co to come (2&1/2 hours later)i get under to where the antifreeze came from when i saw this hole my heart dropped i was more dissapointed than anything ..and until i got a call from a very good friend i did'nt know what i was going to do he help light the fire under my a$$(thanks Sarge :rock: )I will be doing some homework and will be calling Dr.reinhart (Since it's his creation) he has givin me some alternatives which i like..I will keep everyone posted on the outcome..GOD BLESS YOU ALL!! I WISH EVERYONE OF YOU ON THIS SITE MERRY CHRISTMAS TO YOU AND YOUR FAMLIES.... :wreath:

BillyG . I never ran anything less than 93 oct.heh unless i couldn't get it. :D
Heres another look...




You guys and girls are truly full of beautiful spirit .it really is heart felt the a club can come to the aid of a fellow member.i dont know any other club that would do this and ya know ? i dont really want to know.Thank you God mm.net!!!!!!!!

Merc , Mac , Billyg and everyone else God bless you all from the bottoms of our hearts !!
As for the car ,
Dr.Reinhart will have this car picked up sometime next week and sent down to him.he has done work on the car and it is his work and his creation.Dennis has not done me wrong .i mean when i left after the work was done i never had a problem that he did'nt take of or replace free of charge. if so i would'nt be advertising for him at all..i think ever since the dealership started doing work on the car and the car comming with that problem fixed but now haveing a new problem that wasn't there before kinda tends to tell you they stink.Boy i wish Dennis was close by!!!!but were i live these people down here only care about gettin your money and not doing quality work (back woods repair shops).so i really dont have anywhere to go down here and you know when you get it stuck in your back 2 times .you learn not to trust anyone in maryland. never had this problem in philly .So thank you and we love ya'll much..Again god bless you and your families... :santa: :santaw: :xtree: :wreath2:

[Paul T. Casey]

Bummer, count me in for a small donation if it comes to that. As far as being a s/c problem, IMHO, I don't see how this would be a reason. If the tune was bad, it probably would have gone sooner. I think I fall into the DR category here, probably a bum rod, pin, or something along those lines.

[HwyCruiser]

Who can't feel for a guy like this?

Keep up the good attitude Mark... this too shall pass. Merry Christmas to you and yours.

[CBT]

Yikes, it hurts as if it was my own...:(

[CRUZTAKER]

Mark is truley a nice guy.

If anyone starts a contribution tin can, I'm in for whatever I can part with when the disability check arrives.;)

[Bradley G]

You weren't in 2nd gear were you? ;)

Best of luck getting it back! Have a safe Holiday :coolman:
Bradley G

[MAD-3R]

Mark,
I currently have alot of time on my hands, so any research you want done, I have the time to do it. As Mac said, I've been down a simaler road, and am familier to the options. E-mail me at

PShovar@gmail.com

, or PM me here. I will help anyway I can.

[DEFYANT]

Sounds like an engine swap party! Count me in.

[GordonB]

Mark,
Sorry to hear of your misfortune. I have not been very active lately and just saw this thread. I feel for you buddy.
Makes my heart sick to see your pain. It truly makes me wonder about our engines just PLAIN STOCK, and I have 2!!!!
BTW, NO you cannot have one of mine!!!! He He He!!!! ;)

GordonB

[BillyGman]

BillyG . I never ran anything less than 93 oct.heh unless i couldn't get it. :D
Thanks for your reply Mark. If you've always ran 93 octane in your Marauder, then there must be another cause, and with a broken sparkplug like you had, my guess would still be that the engine was knocking, and the only other cause for that other than bad gas as far as I know, would be an improper air/fuel ratio, or an overly aggressive ignition timing advance. But I'm simply going by what I've learned from engine tuners concerning S/Ced engines. I am not an engine tuner myself, so this is merely a partially educated guess at best on my part. Anyway, I hope you're able to get your Marauder back on the road shortly. I'm routing for you pal. And if there's anything that I can do in the least, please don't hesitate to let me know. Again, I'm very sorry to hear of this. This is simply terrible news!!! You were running some real good times at the track too!!!!

[Murader03]

:xtree:
Here's a pic of the damage.thought i'd show you guys.. :)

What a bummer. Anything you need for help or otherwise just give me a shout.


The Best to you, Peg, and the family for the Holidays!

:wreath: :xtree:

[stevengerard]

ouch, kind of makes we wanted do a low end build as well as the s/c

[JohnE]

I'm saddened to see the catastrophic engine failure. Not exactly what one wants for Christmas...

Many people assume that if joe blow gets away with xyz HP then they can to and it's all safe. And if enough people say it, then it's true. But look around and ask yourself if these people are just like you or are they experts before you go believing what you want to. Hypereutectic pistons with a NA compression ratio and powered metal connecting rods are not designed for heavy-duty abuse. It's really more of a matter of when and if it's going to happen. There's a reason the forged parts are made and used. Still you can kill a forged motor as well, but it will put up with a lot more.

Most people assume that when a rod goes through the block that it occurred because of something at that time. And sometimes this is true. But remember that metal fatigues over time with abuse. Damage to parts can occur and weaken the engine, yet still seem to function normal.

I’ve been watching failures occur over time with power adder stock motors. And commonly the guys bragging on being the fastest show up first. Look around at people who have been running power adders for a long period of time, a lot of people get away with it, but many do not. I ran a supercharger on my stock engine for about a year and it made it just fine. But when I spent money on expensive heads, I didn’t want to take the risk of loosing an engine and possibly a $$ head, so I went forged. And then I turned up the boost, a little.

Now with a 4.6 SOHC, used engines are cheap. If you blow up your engine, just throw another complete longblock in there and go another 6 months to 3 years. With these you can change the engine 3 times for the price of a well-built engine. But I’m afraid the AL blocks are a lot harder to come by.

Dennis should be able to help you find a sturdy replacement. He’s had a little practice upgrading his Mark 8 over the years.

Well, it least you have a good chance of convencing your wife you need to spend a a little more on your car. Get some good stuff while you have the chance. Hope it all goes well and you're back on the road again soon.



John

[sailsmen]

I feel for you. It must be related to your previous overheating;

"Anyways heres my trouble..It started about 5 weeks ago.It has been a few months before then that i had the electric water pump installed .so about 5 weeks ago when drive normal back home from eating the car is spitting out smoke (thick) as my son tells me i look at the gauge it all the way on hot.i pull over turn it off wait about five mins and it went down to normal get back in drive it about a 1/4 mile and same thing again .i had to do this procedure 6 times in order to get it home.i have it towed to ford clinic (D s) they find nothing wrong and give it back.1 week later my wife has the same problem lets it cool down and drives it to them w/o it overheating and running fine.they inturn tell me i need head gaskets and that it is running like crap wasn't like that on the way to the place .So they install cobra head gaskets and head bolts saying that the boost was moving the heads which caused the head gaskets to blow so $2,300 later i take the car home and have it 4 days i run it at the track 1 time and blow a spark plug which they replace for free.this satuday night i drive it around the block and i'm not getting heat strange i thought i just parked it here 1/2 hour ago no problem all the sudden the temp gauge is all the way in the red i pull over shut it down for five min start it up and no problem .now last night i take the family to see xmas lights in the neighborhood i get about 1/2 mile from home again no heat so i knew what was going to happen so i shut it off but this time i wait and it still hot the overflow resivior looked like and overfilled balloon.so i start it and hurry home and now it gets hot w/o heat .can't even drive it again..WHAT IS THE PROBLEM???????thermostat?????w ater pump works when it wants to???? something clogging up the system???I really hate to get rid of this car but it is costing more than i can afford.PLEASE HELP ME!!!!"

I hope it all works out for you.
__________________

[Smokie]

I am truly sorry, I would be more than glad to make a contribution, if someone points me in the right direction, sorry Mark.

[BillyGman]

Many people assume that if joe blow gets away with xyz HP then they can to and it's all safe. And if enough people say it, then it's true. But look around and ask yourself if these people are just like you or are they experts before you go believing what you want to.I do NOT believe that neccessarily applies to this scenario, nor to Supercharging Marauders either. I say this because there isn't merely just one or two "Joe Blows" around who have supercharged their Marauders w/out beefing up the bottom ends of their engines. There are 58 Marauders that are equipped w/the Trilogy S/Cer, and almost that many Marauders that Kenny Brown has supercharged also. All in total there are over 100 supercharged Marauders, and many of the owners are members here. And this is the first supercharged engine that I've heard about that had problems. And many of them such as John's (aka "Jet") have many miles on them. John's car has over 50,000 miles on it, is Trilogy equipped, and I've driven his car myself just two weeks ago, and it's fine. Hypereutectic pistons with a NA compression ratio and powered metal connecting rods are not designed for heavy-duty abuse. It's really more of a matter of when and if it's going to happen.Hypereutectic pistons like our Marauders have are considerably stronger than cast pistons are, so again, I disagree w/that statement. Lidio has supercharged and tuned numerous 4.6L Mustang engines that merely have the weaker cast pistons since the mid 90's without any problems having occured to those engines. The critical factor of the potential longevity of the supercharged engine is the tuning. If it's too aggressive (particularly the air/flow ratio, and especially the ignition timing advance) then the engine will deliver more power, but will NOT last. But if it's correct, the engine will be fine.There's a reason the forged parts are made and used. Still you can kill a forged motor as well,Yes you can kill a motor that has forged internals. With an improper, and overly aggressive tune (being too lean, and having too much ignition advance, which causes pinging). but it will put up with a lot more.Just because it will put up with alot more is no reason nor an excuse NOT to get the tuning correct.

Most people assume that when a rod goes through the block that it occurred because of something at that time. And sometimes this is true. But remember that metal fatigues over time with abuse. Damage to parts can occur and weaken the engine, yet still seem to function normal.Yes, I absolutely agree w/you, but the key factor is to stay away from pinging/knocking. And that's particularly imperative w/the supercharged engine. If the tune is made too agressive in the quest for more power, then the knocking and pinging that it will cause will eventually destroy the best forged internals that money can buy. Look around at people who have been running power adders for a long period of time, a lot of people get away with it, but many do not.ABSOLUTELY...it all depends who has a conservative engine tune, and who has an overly aggressive tune. I ran a supercharger on my stock engine for about a year and it made it just fine.And I'm sure you had a good conservative engine tune performed on your engine, or burned into the chip that you had. But when I spent money on expensive heads, I didn’t want to take the risk of loosing an engine and possibly a $$ head, so I went forged. And then I turned up the boost, a little.

Ofcourse it's always a good idea to buy all forged parts for the bottom end of your high performance engine IF and WHEN you do decide to open it up and rebuild it. If you're going to be in there anyway, then why not get the best? But that doesn't neccessarily mean that having forged internals in the bottom end of the motor in question is absolutely neccessary simply because it will be supercharged. I've heard of similar things happening to 4.6L engines that happened to Mark's engine, which were not supercharged. The three tell tale signs of knocking and pinging that I know of are piston cracking, head gasket failures, and sparkplugs coming apart, and Mark has had two of those symptoms. And the number one enemy to supercharged engines is pinging/knocking.

Does this mean that Mark's engine was pinging? I don't think that I can possibly say for sure. But unless anyone knows for a fact that it was NOT, then there's NO way that you can rule that out as being the cause of what has happened, especially in light of the fact that he had the head gasket problem as well as the sparkplug problem. Therefore, you cannot simply jump to a conclusion that this has happened to Mark's engine solely because it was supercharged w/out having forged internals in the bottom end. Because there are a whole lot more Marauder out there that have been supercharged that are just fine, and they do NOT have forged internals either. But either way, the engine tune is what's most important to the supercharged engine.

[SergntMac]

There have been times I have felt like the Amish in America. Everyone stares at me, and some give me goofy grins which make me wonder if they really like my MM, or wonder if my sensibility went to lunch. Sometimes I feel Amish, which leads me to my point.

How do the Amish build a barn?

Any factory trained, or, true to life wrenches in Mark's neighborhood? Seems to me we could find the parts, or, assemblies he needs, and have one hell of a weekend in a community build? The MM.Net comes together to fix one guy's sick car? Think about it, it would be like our Hershey meet, with a little more engine oil.

[BillyGman]

There have been times I have felt like the Amish in America. Everyone stares at me, and some give me goofy grins which make me wonder if they really like my MM, or wonder if my sensibility went to lunch. Sometimes I feel Amish, which leads me to my point.

How do the Amish build a barn?

Any factory trained, or, true to life wrenches in Mark's neighborhood? Seems to me we could find the parts, or, assemblies he needs, and have one hell of a weekend in a community build? The MM.Net comes together to fix one guy's sick car? Think about it, it would be like our Hershey meet, with a little more engine oil. I think that's an excellent idea, and I'd be more than willing to spend half a week in a hotel in Mark's area, just to contribute to that effort, if such an effort ever materializes. And in addition to a contribution in labor, I'd also be willing to contribute financially to this cause if anyone decides to organize it. Mark is a great guy, and I would be more than happy to do that for him as I'm sure that others will too.

[SergntMac]

Thank you JohnE and BillyG, but honestly, this isn't the time to hold these discussions. Surely, it all too premature to declare any one problem as the cause. Let's get Mark up and running, and see what an autopsy reveals at a later time?

[Tallboy]

I think that's an excellent idea, and I'd be more than willing to spend half a week in a hotel in Mark's area, just to contribute to that effort, if such an effort ever materializes. And in addition to a contribution in labor, I'd also be willing to contribute financially to this cause if anyone decides to organize it. Mark is a great guy, and I would be more than happy to do that for him as I'm sure that others will too....And I will have my brother drop off a check at your house, Billy, and you can hand-deliver it to Mark!! :)

[merc]

I drive Mark’s car last Sunday night and one thing that I found odd was the R.P.M. reading and speed, let me explain. My car (N/A) cruises at 80 M.P.H. at around 2,500 –3000 R.PM. in overdrive. Mark’s car was registering 3500-4000 R.P.M. at the same speed. I don’t understand how are cars could be so different. Billy, I could not hear if the car was pinging due to exhaust noise, supercharge whine, and radio. I don’t profess to be an expert in the mechanics of our car, but I thought this was odd

PS: Mac you have a great idea, count me in.

[MikesMerc]

The difference in speed vs RPM can be rear gearing or TC slippage. I'll bet one of those explains what you encountered.

Sarge is correct, this thread is not the place to debate the strengths and weaknesses of supercharging the stock MM motor. Although I agree with Billy for the most part that the stock blocks can do just fine supercharged, there certainly can be other issues than "the tune" that can result in a failure. Take it to another thread, and I'll be happy to chime in more.

[TripleTransAm]

Has anyone considered the possibility of parts-quality tolerances? Some members have no mods on their cars and experience catastrophic failures... some members have oodles of extra ponies oozing out of every corner of their valvecovers and are running just fine (so far).

So IN THEORY perhaps it's possible to have a supercharged aluminum 4.6l DOHC engine survive fairly long, even though it's designed to operate in a configuration where it'll churn out a maximum of 300-320 hp. However, these aren't hand-assembled hand-cast engines. Each and every part is made in assembly lines remote from one another and certainly remote from where they will eventually come together to make one engine. Each and every assembly line is operating within preset economic constraints, and all these tolerances in build quality and specs will eventually come together to leave us with one big mish-mash of tolerances which is our particular MM's motor.

These tolerances all add up to an engine that's designed to be economically feasible to build and be profitable for the company, and be 'safe' enough to yield good longevity across a wide-enough spread. Yes, there will be warrantied failures for some of the unfortunate combinations of really bad parts, and others will last 20 years without a puff of smoke. Factor in all the "bad" engines that will never get to fail within warranty periods due to various factors (like, lack of driving until the warranty time period expires, cars taken out of action due to being totalled in thefts or accidents, folks who invalidate their warranties through modifications, folks who don't report failures and eat the costs themselves for whatever reasons, etc.) and the engineering actuarial types (bean counters?) get to decide just how much risk they (as a company) can take when determining acceptable tolerances.

So while it's been debated over and over how the 4.6l DOHC (on paper) should be able to withstand tons of building-up, it doesn't mean EVERY 4.6l DOHC can withstand the same amount of power build-up. As Sarge has put it in the past, it's all part of the game of modding.

[MikesMerc]

Has anyone considered the possibility of parts-quality tolerances?

Yes, as was noted above:

there certainly can be other issues than "the tune" that can result in a failure.

[Zack]

JB Weld.
You'll be back on the road by Monday morning.

[TheDealer]

Ok, Sgt. Mac called me about this thread. I hadn't even seen it yet. He asked me about getting everyone together to help Mark out. My friend and the only one that has worked on my cars for the last 20 years has offered his shop and his services to remove and install the engine for your car. You get the engine, people from this site get together for a weekend and we'll do the job for free. My friends shop is JD'S Performace in Huntingdon Valley Pa. He's about 20 minute from my Dealership. He does tons of performance work and restorations. He has a chassis dyno and all the latest tunning stuff, even for the 2005 Mustangs. He is a authorized Trilogy Dealer. He just purchase the Roadforce Tire System. He has people come from all over the country to his shop. He restored Jackie Onasis 52 Roll Royce for a customer in Fla. He is willing to donate himself and 2 employees to do the job. If anyone would like to come and make this and east coast event, that would be great. His shop is ten minutes from the Pa turnpike and has hotels in the area. His web site is www.jds-high-performance.com. Mark, let me know how you feel about this. I know you will still have to buy a motor, but at least we can install it and tune it for free. Ray :banana2: :banana2:

[ModMech]

I do NOT believe that neccessarily applies to this scenario, nor to Supercharging Marauders either. I say this because there isn't merely just one or two "Joe Blows" around who have supercharged their Marauders w/out beefing up the bottom ends of their engines. There are 58 Marauders that are equipped w/the Trilogy S/Cer, and almost that many Marauders that Kenny Brown has supercharged also. All in total there are over 100 supercharged Marauders, and many of the owners are members here. And this is the first supercharged engine that I've heard about that had problems. And many of them such as John's (aka "Jet") have many miles on them. John's car has over 50,000 miles on it, is Trilogy equipped, and I've driven his car myself just two weeks ago, and it's fine.

The simple fact is, when you install a power adder, it is a matter of TIME before it breaks, not IF but WHEN. Forged internals help, a lot, but even that does not get you back to stock durability.


Hypereutectic pistons with a NA compression ratio and powered metal connecting rods are not designed for heavy-duty abuse. It's really more of a matter of when and if it's going to happen. Hypereutectic pistons like our Marauders have are considerably stronger than cast pistons are, so again, I disagree w/that statement.

That (in red) is completely misleading.

The reason they spend more $$ on HR pistons than on cast is because they are more thermally stable, and a little stronger. This makes for tighter fitments and less noise, but at a slight dollar cost. The BIG issue with HR pistons is that they are brittle, they WILL NOT take any real heavy knowk before you take out a ring land, and most likely you'll never even know it happened. A cast piston does not have this brittle issue to the same degree.


Lidio has supercharged and tuned numerous 4.6L Mustang engines that merely have the weaker cast pistons since the mid 90's without any problems having occured to those engines.

That's wrong. NO 4.6L has ever had cast pistons.


The critical factor of the potential longevity of the supercharged engine is the tuning. If it's too aggressive (particularly the air/flow ratio, and especially the ignition timing advance) then the engine will deliver more power, but will NOT last. But if it's correct, the engine will be fine.

True, and no one knows this better then DR and the folks at SCT. NO ONE.


Still you can kill a forged motor as well,Yes you can kill a motor that has forged internals. With an improper, and overly aggressive tune (being too lean, and having too much ignition advance, which causes pinging). but it will put up with a lot more.Just because it will put up with alot more is no reason nor an excuse NOT to get the tuning correct.

Actually, forged internals give you more time, nothing more. It WILL fail with a power adder, the question is really when.


Yes, I absolutely agree w/you, but the key factor is to stay away from pinging/knocking. And that's particularly imperative w/the supercharged engine. If the tune is made too agressive in the quest for more power, then the knocking and pinging that it will cause will eventually destroy the best forged internals that money can buy. Look around at people who have been running power adders for a long period of time, a lot of people get away with it, but many do not.ABSOLUTELY...it all depends who has a conservative engine tune, and who has an overly aggressive tune.

Knock has very little impact on the Powered Metal rods, but they are WEAK. They are decent in compression strength, but very weak in tension. The standing recomendation is to stay BELOW 6200 RPM, because that is about their limit of being CONnecting rods, when they transform into DISconnecting rods. Most often, a rod breaks in TENSION, when they break in compression, it is typically a metal flaw or fatigue. I feel you are making too much of the tuning thing here. DR has the correct resources to get the AFR and timing NAILED on the first try, and the technology available to him is second to none. Unless you can offer some reason why tuning would have played a part in a failure cruising at part throttle on the road, I suggest that it was NOT a factor at all.

[TheDealer]

I think he best bet would be to find a used 03 Cobra motor. Much stronger than the Marauder motor.

[MM03MOK]

I'm speechless, Ray!! What an amazing offer, thank you JD!! Thank you, Mac, for taking the idea to the next step!! :bows: :bows: :bows:

Even the Bunny might consider a road trip!!

[TripleTransAm]

Unless you can offer some reason why tuning would have played a part in a failure cruising at part throttle on the road, I suggest that it was NOT a factor at all.

Just throwing this idea out:
Would it not be possible to have a certain aspect of tuning to be causing undue stress on a motor that would not be seen under WOT testing on a dyno? Dyno loads don't always offer 100% simulations of what an engine sees in a real world (ie. bogging from part throttle upshifts, the occasional odd scenario when an engine doesn't downshift fast enough when the pedal is matted, or the even odder yet very possible situation where the transmission is upshifting but the pedal is depressed at the same time resulting in a transient hunting, etc.).

Too many variables, anyway... sometimes one particular adverse situation leads to hidden wear or damage which manifests itself much later on. Anything could have happened along the car's history.

[CRUZTAKER]

Sarge is correct, this thread is not the place to debate the strengths and weaknesses of supercharging the stock MM motor..........
Ummm, DITTO on the "take it to another thread"

Apparently some folks are determined to continue debating motor internals in the is thread....ModMech.....

Please let's try to keep on topic and discuss internals elsewhere, this is no place to start a big debate on opinions. :shake:

[TheDealer]

Let's keep this thread on hellping out a fellow member. :beer:

[merc406]

Some causes of engine failure's--http://www.aa1car.com go to the Libary of Auto Tech. Articles and click onto the Engine Mech articles

Sorry to hear of this Mark, with all the kind help being offered you will be on the road soon :burnout:

[merc]

Some causes of engine failure's--http://www.aa1car.com/libary/us697.htm

Sorry to hear of this Mark, with all the kind help being offered you will be on the road soon :burnout:

The URL doesn't work.

[ModMech]

Apparently some folks are determined to continue debating motor internals in the is thread....ModMech.....

Please let's try to keep on topic and discuss internals elsewhere, this is no place to start a big debate on opinions. :shake:

Ummm,
"determined to continue"? My first post on the subject. All factual, no opinion. Knock won't cause a rod failure before a piston or plug failure, neither will "lugging". Rods typically fail from excessive RPM or a material flaw. This is not a block failure, but a ROD failure. Even if this had been a Fe block, the results would be the very same, a large hole in the block skirt.

"no place to start a debate"? I did not start any debate. Are you referring to someone else?

Also, anyone that thinks the '03 Cobra blocks are so great, recall the threads about the destroyed '03 Cobra block. They are not much better.

No matter what, it sucks to add unwelcomed ventilation your powerplant.

[merc406]

The URL doesn't work.




Fixed.....it's a damn good site for just about any car out.

[sailsmen]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that this car had multiple overheating episodes shortly before the hole in the block.

Did you check your oil for coolant contamination after the overheating?

[Mike Poore]

I think he best bet would be to find a used 03 Cobra motor. Much stronger than the Marauder motor.
Ray, YOU ARE THE BEST.

We see what you do for the vets, and what you do to help us out with parts & such ....now THIS.

I'll come to help, and do what I can, if its only handing out sandwitches and cokes.

And ...have the honor of shaking your hand.:)

[TheDealer]

Hey Mike, I'll buy Friday night. Philly Cheesesteaks and Cokes for everyone!!!
Maybe we could do breakfast on Sat. morning too!!! Is anyone brave enough to try some scrapple??? LOL RAY

[jobrien8]

Looking at the photo's of the engine failure, I checked back on all the engine failures the I've had or that I've heard about in testing. Nearly all that had rod assemblies that busted rods, cranks, webs, etc, were with the #2 cylinder not liking the location that it was in. With those that detonation was the problem, the spark plug failed, the top of the piston was pitted (evidence of pre-ignition), ring lands gone, ring failure, cylinder walls scored and cut.
Some of these failures were at less than 20 test hours. Others were in the hundreds of test hours.
But then again, without a complete teardown and analysis, all of us are just speculating as to the cause. We do know what the effect was. Please let us know.

[Amsoil_Dealer]

Everyone seems to be ignoring the fact that this car had multiple overheating episodes shortly before the hole in the block.

Did you check your oil for coolant contamination after the overheating?

I thought about contaminated oil as well.

The fact that this failure occured at cruise conditions indicates that the problem was waiting to happen, Mark just didn't know it.

Also, the fact that it was a catastrophic failure with no audible warning leads me to believe that 1) a rob broke as a result of a fatigue crack / manufacturing defect or 2) a rod bolt backed off. If it was either of these, a warranty claim is justified. A worn out bearing would have been rattling to beat hell before a rod failure would happen.

Finally, As you tear this down, save a sample of the oil and the oil filter for analysis. Oil analysis can reveal if it was unusual wear and/or coolant conatmination. True the oil is going to be laced with metal and coolant in a failure situation but, spectrografic oil analysis can tell how much microscopic contamination was in the oil before the failure. This oil analysis data may be useful for the warranty calim as well.

Mark, I'll contribute an oil analysis kit to your cause. Just PM me your address and I'll send you one..

Finally, to the rest of you guys, spend the $20 to have your oil analyzed once in a while. Rebuilds are much cheaper if you find the problem before you have a catastrophic failure like this one!!!!

Don

www.oaitesting.com

[MikesMerc]

But then again, without a complete teardown and analysis, all of us are just speculating as to the cause.

Well said.

BTW, saying that adding a power adder to any motor makes it a matter of "when" not "if "the motor fails is pretty funny. Power adder or not, its always a matter of "when" a motor fails...lol:D In addition, if you head over to the Corral, you'll find plenty of 4.6 mod aluminum motored guys with 70K+ power adder miles. With the proper tune, you can get the MTF of a power adder engine very near to OEM. Of course, when you add enough power to begin using up all or most of the engineering overhead, things are gonna break every now and then. If you power mod, you hafta be prepared for the increase in risk...no matter how small or large it is.

[Mike Poore]

Hey Mike, I'll buy Friday night. Philly Cheesesteaks and Cokes for everyone!!!
Maybe we could do breakfast on Sat. morning too!!! Is anyone brave enough to try some scrapple??? LOL RAYScrapple! Shucks, Ray, I'm a PA country boy, through and through, scrapple, souse, Lebanon bologna? Bring it on! And, I spent two years in Japan with Uncle Sugar, so I'm an accomplished bait eater, ....but not as good as Barry. :rofl:

:Offtopic: I know, I know, .....I'm going :corner:

[sailsmen]

In theory a S/C does not increase the peak load that takes place in the combustion chamber. It only raises the less than peak compustion chamber loads.

[SergntMac]

Me and a few others here have asked y'all to not use this thread to conduct a premature autopsy of MarauderMark's hole in his block. Obviously, many of y'all disagree with that, but hey, it was only a suggestion anyway...

This speculation seems to be a natural by-product among us. It's what we do when someone says something broke. When we say broke, all that matters is what, how it broke, and why. So be it.

Before y'all read my "IMHO" on this, take a peek at this?

http://www.karkraft.com/cobra_rods1.jpg

That's a broken connecting rod. It's made of powdered metal and it broke all by itself simply because it was stretched and pulled beyond it intended limit.

Powdered metal rods needs to be understood better because there is a whole lot of powdered metal parts in our MMs. The metaphor I use to explain powdered metal is that it's really more like glass. Or, very glass like, just not clear.

If we can take ordinary beach sand and compress it so much that it becomes a sheet of clear glass, we learn that we can use metal sand to build metal engine parts too, right?

Whether you agree with me or not, it's what is done these days, and a connecting rod made of powdered metal was compressed the same way as glass, and it has the same properties of glass, except it's not clear. You can mold it, bend it, stretch it, push it, pull it, twist it, and crack it in half, but all within certain known tolerances, and those tolerances meet, or, match that of glass.

Keeping in mind that these connecting rods are also known as "cracked rods" rods, helps me make my point. "Cracked rods" explains how the rod is pressure formed into one solid piece, and the lower end (where the rod wraps around the crank) is cracked off with high pressure to create the end cap, which is later bolted back into place. This matches each rod cap to it's own specific rod, and they are not interchangable, however, this reduces production costs. But, it increases failure rate too, when specs are violated.

The impact that creates a rod cap from a whole one-piece rod is severe. Cracking one piece of metal into two pieces, and patching them back together just for the connecting rod job, is a violent process. But, the fact that it's done this way, is proof that "powdered metal" process has it's limits, which is my point.

Of all the specualtion that has taken place in this thread so far, IMHO, "ModMech" posts the correct answer. It's not the increased cylinder pressure from supercharging that causes a rod to fail. Nor, is it so much the "fine tune," nor our "aluminum block." Rather, it's a matter of the rod reaching it's cracking limit, and once it does, it "snaps."

Supercharging increases cylinder pressure, and the connecting rods get pushed, or, compressed. They can endure this compression forever because compression is what made them. It's healthy for them, which explains why our engines perform better after some mileage. Cylinder "decompression" is the opposite effect. This is severe "pulling" of the piston down into the crank case and against the force of fluids below (hydroshock in reverse) and the friction inherrent to this (oil weights).

Like a rubber band stretched to it's limits, or, better yet, like a baseball hitting a picture window sized pane of glass, the stretching capability is taxed. Overtax it, and things snap, or, shatter, if you will.

Once again...We need to see MarauderMark's connecting rods before we say, or, speculate more. If a rod snapped, the top half (piston connected end) will be bent in one direction, and the lower (connected to the crank shaft) end will be bent in the other direction, much like y'all see in the pic I included here. One of those ends (top, or, bottom) punched a hole in his block when the snap took place. And, it seems (to me) that it wouldn't matter what the block was made of, or, what tune was used, a hole is a hole?

IMHO...This "hole in the block" has more to do with the "bone stock" nature of Mark's engine than anything he's done to that after the fact. The car was produced with limits, and we found a way to change, or, remove those limits. IMHO, this is what happened, and why.

Bone stock connecting rods cannot endure long term high RMP runs, and if you're going to run at high RMPs over the long term, the connecting rods will snap.

Hope this helps...Just my .02C

[BillyGman]

Well said.

BTW, saying that adding a power adder to any motor makes it a matter of "when" not "if "the motor fails is pretty funny. Power adder or not, its always a matter of "when" a motor fails...lol:D In addition, if you head over to the Corral, you'll find plenty of 4.6 mod aluminum motored guys with 70K+ power adder miles. With the proper tune, you can get the MTF of a power adder engine very near to OEM.
Thankyou....I agree. MAC, as well as Sailsmen have both made some good points also. There seems to have been a lot of things going on w/Mark's engine, and things that weren't good. Overheating being one of them. Anyway, I also agree w/MAC about there being alot of speculation amongst us about this matter. I suppose it's just human nature to want to try and figure out why this has happened. In addition to the things that hvae been said here that I agree with, there are several things that I don't agree with, and that just don't add up. however, I admit that further debating will not help Mark here, and what MAC and the "Dealer" said about plans to help Mark out are very good, and I guess that's what Mark and everyone can focus on now. ;)

[MM03MOK]

On that note, let's concentrate on adding a different :twocents: .

http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=14756&page=2&pp=40