Winter Gasoline

[maraudernkc]

Does anyone know what the oil companys do to say 91 octane in the winter? I have several people including myself that are having problems getting gas that will not make your car ping at full boost and as we all know that is not a good thing. I have tried shell, QT and Texaco. No one had any problems until the last couple of weeks.

Any ideals or experts on fuel out there.

One more question: I have an airport by my has where I could get avation fuel. I beleive it is 100 ocatne. What if you put 4 gallons of that to 15 gallons of winter grade 91 octane? what would you have?

I have a Dyno comming up on the 28th and want to make sure I have 91 Octane no more no less.

Let me know anything you know.

[merc406]

Last time I did av gas was 1980 and it's leaded, more than likely still is.

Fuel is crap :bs: in winter months depending on where you live, it's oxygenated, which is an oxymoron.

[Directedby]

We have a gas problem in Los Angeles, also.

My engine pings once in a while.

I tried Chevron - no good.
I tried 76 - no good.

I am waiting for my tank to empty, then I will try Mobil, then Shell, then Arco.

I do know that Octane Boost (from Pep Boys) really works well.

[CRUZTAKER]

One more question: I have an airport by my has where I could get avation fuel. I beleive it is 100 ocatne. What if you put 4 gallons of that to 15 gallons of winter grade 91 octane? what would you have?I frequently mix leaded 114 with 100 unleaded before a track day. I'll put 3 gallons of 114 over 5 gallons of 100.

The leaded fuel fusses with the CATS and the O2 sensors, but in my case I have 2 aftermarket KOOKS cats and am not concerned. I assure you you won't get ping with leaded fuel, and my car runs like a bat out of hell on the CAM2 leaded. Can you say 13.2 quarter miles on street tires?:P

You have not indicated your location in your sig, although alot of folks know you, and where you reside, I do not, therefore I cannot make a suggestion as to where to find fuel[.

CAM2 and Sunoco both have websites that will direct you to a filling station that has pump race gas in your area. You will need a canister to obtain any fuel over 100 octane, particularly any leaded blends, so be prepared.

HERE (http://www.racegas.com/gt100locals/) is the Sunoco link, and you'll need to find the CAM2 link for other station locations.

Good luck, and happy motoring!

BTW: As far as your original question, if 91 is all you can find, run the tank to "add fuel", and put 4 gallons of the 100 leaded to 1.5 gallons of 91. Because of the reserve already in the tank, this will put the tank over a quarter, and under a half. Enough to dyno/race all after noon. Top off normal fuel afterwards....enjoy the smell....smells like victory!:cool:

[maraudernkc]

I live in Kansas City, Kansas but I am not trying to get to a 100 ocatne level. I want to get to a true 91 or 92 octane level for my Dyno Runs. I am going to run this on every Day pump gas and thats how I want to tune it but right now we have this crap winter gas and it is some nasty stuff.




I frequently mix leaded 114 with 100 unleaded before a track day. I'll put 3 gallons of 114 over 5 gallons of 100.

The leaded fuel fusses with the CATS and the O2 sensors, but in my case I have 2 aftermarket KOOKS cats and am not concerned. I assure you you won't get ping with leaded fuel, and my car runs like a bat out of hell on the CAM2 leaded. Can you say 13.2 quarter miles on street tires?:P

You have not indicated your location in your sig, although alot of folks know you, and where you reside, I do not, therefore I cannot make a suggestion as to where to find fuel[.

CAM2 and Sunoco both have websites that will direct you to a filling station that has pump race gas in your area. You will need a canister to obtain any fuel over 100 octane, particularly any leaded blends, so be prepared.

HERE (http://www.racegas.com/gt100locals/) is the Sunoco link, and you'll need to find the CAM2 link for other station locations.

Good luck, and happy motoring!

BTW: As far as your original question, if 91 is all you can find, run the tank to "add fuel", and put 4 gallons of the 100 leaded to 1.5 gallons of 91. Because of the reserve already in the tank, this will put the tank over a quarter, and under a half. Enough to dyno/race all after noon. Top off normal fuel afterwards....enjoy the smell....smells like victory!:cool:

[Lidio]

The winter blend fuels to some people are considered to be an urban rumor. But in the parts of the US that get very cold, it is no rumor at all. I’m no expert when it comes to the chemistry of every day unleaded pump fuels, but supposedly winter blend fuel is different in an effort to make gas engines start more easily in the frigid cold conditions. What ever it is they do to it to start better in the cold, they definitely are some how lowering/hurting the octane level.

We’ve had 100’s of blower cars that have perfect, safe, reliable tunes thru out the summer and then if the customer happens to drive and abuse their car in the winter months, they come back spark knocking or with a blown head gasket or worse. This is why some times my tunes are overly conservative to some people and lack big power on some applications. To much timing with not enough octane is the number one cause of most head gasket and late model piston failures in the 4.6L’s. Piston failures more then any thing because of the awesome head gasket retention the 4.6L’s have.

What I’ve learned is… as long as the boost and compression aren’t completely crazy. You can get by on cheaper or lower octane fuel. You must have a good ear for spark knock and watch knock sensors if you trust them. And simply plan on sacrificing a lot of power. It’s that simple. You can make cheaper or lower octane fuels work in most mild blower combinations and even 9.5 to 10:1 compression. Just be safe with the spark and live with the fact that it may only make for “Example Only” 400RWHP and not maybe 440RWHP or more for a given application. I’ve learned a lot of this over the years and found that lack of octane and poor spark tables will burn you down instantly where as a slightly lean condition doesn’t hurt at all or very little over time!

This is why I try so hard to get the guys that I know that become power greedy and want more and more boost/power to switch to a race fuel of some kind full time. Be it a leaded race fuel like the readily available “Turbo-Blue” here in MI, or my favorite: Sunoco GT 100 unleaded, also known as CAM-2. When a guy is willing to switch to this stuff, its always good fuel. It is formulated for race/boosted engines. It’s detonation threshold is much higher not only because of its higher octane rating but simply because its good stuff <<( sorry for the technical term). I found that basically for every one octane you go up with every day pump gas, you can add about one degree of timing. With the Sunoco 100 unleaded or a 110 of some kind… you can go as much as 2 degrees more per octane. So lets say you switch from Amoco 93 on your car up to the 100 unleaded race fuel, You could run as much as 8-14 degrees more timing and still feel safe about it. That’s how good race fuels can be. You can be more aggressive and still be safe about it with in reason of course.

Just to give you a real life example of what you can get way with when it come to ignition timing and 100 unleaded race fuels. On my own personal MM which has a Trilogy blower making about 14psi of boost. I literally run 1-3 degrees more timing at WOT under boost, then the original factory spark curve!! Yes I said that right…. Even with almost 14psi of boost I run more timing at WOT then a stock MM tune!! And when I hit the NOS on top of the boost, I back it off about 3 degrees from off idle all the way up to 6500rpm’s.
My MM to this day has had no motor failure, the blower has been on and abused for over 19K miles now!


I hate every day premium fuels and the fact that from state to state, and brand name to brand name you can run into so many different quality’s of fuel.

I think that the fuel companies and the car company should some day ( I know this is a dream) get rid of all the different types of fuel and just go up to one good thing like a 95 or 96 octane and be done with it. No more 86 thru 94 octane and the potential for the gas stations mixing system to blend you the wrong thing as you pump it in your car.
Just one octane and its over. Cars would run better and if the car company’s and their tuners knew that this was the only fuel available in the whole country they could take advantage of this and cars would run better plus get much better fuel economy as well. No more compromising the calibration because California has only 91 octane and the upper part of Michigan has bad 87 octane blended for winter time. Just one octane. One good octane and its all over. I don’t know the gasoline industry but I got to believe this could be made affordably. Does 93 octane really need to cost as much as 10 to 20 cents more per gallon then 87 octane? Or is it becaue they know the consumer will pay for it?

Thanks

[CRUZTAKER]

Right on Lidio! What agreat explaination.

I love what you did to my car, and the tune you gave me for 100+ is fantastic. And as you explain, with my running 114, there is little question in my mind that I might brake something when I turn that switch to number 3.

BTW: I love number 3...:P :cool:

[maraudernkc]

Lidio, thanks for the great reply. Well it sounds like I will have to undertune my car but tune it for the gas that is here in Kansas City everyday. I know when you hear that pinging sound that I just am waiting for the big one and I don't want that.


Lidio, have you ever mixed say 4 gallons of 100 octane with say 14 or 15 galllons of 91 octane? I just that might be a less exspesive way to bring up your octane to maybe 94?

[Lidio]

Lidio, have you ever mixed say 4 gallons of 100 octane with say 14 or 15 galllons of 91 octane? I just that might be a less exspesive way to bring up your octane to maybe 94?

I dont mix fuels on my own stuff, although it works well. I would rather mix unleaded 93 or 92 with a little bit of race fuel then use an octane booster. Most octane boosters dont work. And most people over mix with octane boosters and end up with fouled plugs and driveability problems.

I would mix it 50/50 if it were me.

[SergntMac]

Well it sounds like I will have to undertune my car but tune it for the gas that is here in Kansas City everyday. I know when you hear that pinging sound that I just am waiting for the big one and I don't want that.
This would be my advice, because it's advice I have to follow myself. We all would like to have the MM of our dreams, but we have to be realistic when it's a daily driver. If 91 is the diet of your region, get the best tune you can for that octane. I suspect you'll be having more fun at the stoplight than the track anyway, and you have to be prepared for that. The every once in a while higher octane "cocktail" will be best enjoyed when you can avoid "the morning after."

[BillyGman]

. Just be safe with the spark and live with the fact that it may only make for “Example Only” 400RWHP and not maybe 440RWHP or more for a given application.

Yep, that's what I've done. Having 400RWHP for my daily driver Marauder which gets driven all year round is just fine with me. I have access to, and have always used, 93 octane Mobil gas, and I've never noticed any pinging, nor have I had any problems after 11,000 supercharged miles on my Marauder. And boy do I drive it hard!!! Even in 30 degree whether when the pavement is dry, I drive it hard. So far so good. This is just one of the reasons why I've had so much confidence in Lidio's tuning approach. He understands the importance of tuning Supercharged STREET engines conservatively. I've never had a custom dyno tune done to my Marauder, however, because the tune that's in the chip that comes with the Trilogy supercharger kit is burned by Lidio, I know that my supercharged Marauder engine, isn't running on the ragged edge of detonation. And I've always been satisfied with having a conservative tune which has a built in margin of error. 400 RWHP is good enough for me!!!Thanks Lidio!!!!

[Directedby]

i have used Prestone Octane Booster and can feel a SOTP difference and the engine runs better.

Prestone® 0 To 60® Booster

Prestone® 0 to 60® Booster is a super concentrated, “street legal” fuel additive that is capable of raising the octane of regular unleaded gasoline by up to 10 points. Raising the octane of the fuel helps to reduce knocks and pings, which can rob the engine of its power and improves the overall performance of the fuel system by cleaning fouled injectors and carburetors. Providing year-round driving protection, Prestone Fuel System Cleaner will clean injectors, intake valves and carburetors in one tank.

0 to 60 Booster contains a super concentrated blend of MMT and detergent that will:
Raise the octane of regular gasoline by up to 10 points

Clean fuel injectors

Clean carburetors

Help reduce knocks and pings

Help restore power lost due to fouled injectors and deposits in the system

[BillyGman]

uhmmm.....and you believe all of that? BTW, what does "10 points" mean? Is that supposed to be as in raising 91 octane gasoline to 101 octane? or is that more like raising it to 91.10 octane? Sounds to me that the real answer is likely the latter. Which ofcourse wouldn't do squat. Notice how the claim is worded.....the product in question will "help to raise octane".......LOL....it doesn't actually raise the octane, but it will "help" to raise it. :rolleyes:

[Directedby]

uhmmm.....and you believe all of that? :rolleyes:

Yes, BillyG I believe anything anyone tells me. Stop being so condescending. I was merely giving information that I found and from experience with pinging problems, this octane boost worked well.

Here is a more detailed explaination from their website.

The term "points" is commonly used in the automotive industry when referring to the octane increase a product offers. This is different from the figures shown at your local gas pump, where the octane "rating" of a gasoline is measured in "numbers". This can sometimes create confusion as to how "points" translate to "numbers". The following calculation can be used to translate points to numbers:

1 octane point = 0.1 octane number

Increasing the octane of gasoline has several positive effects on automobile performance. A higher octane gasoline will allow a car to run smoother by reducing knocks and pings, which ultimately restores lost performance.


An example of this might be:


Common regular unleaded gasoline is rated at 87 octane at the gas pump. If you treat that gasoline with an octane enhancement product that claims a 5 "point" increase, then the end result will be a gasoline that has an 87.5 octane rating. In this example, the octane enhancement product provided 5 "points", which is equal to 0.5 octane numbers.


Prestone® 0 to 60® Booster provides 10 points of octane increase, which will increase the octane of regular unleaded gasoline by a full number. In this case, an 87 octane rated fuel would go to 88 after treatment with Prestone® 0 to 60® Booster.

[BillyGman]

LOL....hey, no offense.....I just thought that it would've been better if you had put it in your own words rather than the advertising hype of that manufactures' words. Thankyou for explaining it better in your last post. So it turns out that they're merely talking about increasing octane from let's say.....91 octane to 92 octane. And for the price of what it will cost to use most octane boosters on a regular basis, I think it's not even worth going from 91 octane to 92. And chances are if your engine is pinging frequently on 91 octane gasoline, then pushing it up to 92 octane isn't going to get you in a safe zone. Sorry, but I just don't think that's worth it. So perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this, yes?

[Directedby]

LOL....hey, no offense.....I just thought that it would've been better if you had put it in your own words rather than the advertising hype of that manufactures' words. Thankyou for explaining it better in your last post. So it turns out that they're merely talking about increasing octane from let's say.....91 octane to 92 octane. And for the price of what it will cost to use most octane boosters on a regular basis, I think it's not even worth going from 91 octane to 92. And chances are if your engine is pinging frequently on 91 octane gasoline, then pushing it up to 92 octane isn't going to get you in a safe zone. Sorry, but I just don't think that's worth it. So perhaps we should just agree to disagree on this, yes?

I have had many problems with knocks and pings, but when I use the Octane boost, my engine does not knock and ping. So even though it only goes from 91 to 92, there is a huge difference in the quality of how my engine runs.

I found another Octane Booster on the web. What do you think of it?

http://www.kemcooil.com/product_info.php?pId=61

[BillyGman]

Aside from the fact that I'm very skeptical of these types of products, and whether or not they're even good for your car(especially if they contain lead), I'm just not crazy about the whole idea of having to pour an additive in the tank on every fill up. If the engine in question is pinging, then there's something wrong. At the very least, the timing advance curve needs to be changed. I'd rather look into that than use octane concoctions that claim to raise the octane of pump gas.

[tbore007]

Last time I did av gas was 1980 and it's leaded, more than likely still is.

Fuel is crap :bs: in winter months depending on where you live, it's oxygenated, which is an oxymoron.

cool aviator!!!!!!!

[merc406]

cool aviator!!!!!!!



Jerry did fly alot I guess, (on the ground). :rasta:

Thanks, that be my avatar.... :D

[ckadiddle]

I don't know a lotta technical stuff about cars, I just like to drive. My previous Crown Vics, 1997 and 2001 both had some valve knock on basic and medium grade unleaded, so I used two tanks fo medium, then a tank of premium. This evened things out pretty well. The dude that sold us the Marauder is a hot rod/drag racing freak, and a partner in a speed shop. He threatened me with bodily harm if he ever caught me feeding the Marauder anything less than premium. He also recommended NOS brand octane boost once every three months - not to boost the octane, but to help keep the fuel injectors clean. Here in the Orlando area most stations' premium pumps are 93 octane rating so thats what Blue Thunder drinks. Runs like a bat outta heck, no knocks or pings. Keep in mind everything is stock as far as I know. Have had it about six weeks, has about 18000 miles on it.

[BillyGman]

welcome to the board Clyde. I do sympathize w/the Marauder owners from California who are stuck with having to use 91 octane gasoline. But then again, they aren't stuck with having to expose their cars to snow either like some of us are. So I guess you just can't have it all. But since the octane recommendations for a stock Marauder are only 91 octane, then I would think that there shouldn't be a problem with that, unless they've purchased a chip, or had their cars performance tuned by someone who didn't know or care that they need to use the lower octane.

[EbonyMarauder03]

The more I read from Lidio the more I have to get his tune for my Marauder.

Hey Lidio, whenever you want to start a petition to get one grade of gasoline with less additives and more gasoline in it let me know. I'll sign it in a hearbeat. It makes too much sense not to do it. With a one grade and uniform blend across the nation gas would come down in price since the volume of fuel would increase many times. With a lower price everyone no matter what car they drive would have no problem running a higher octane in their cars.

I run strictly Sunoco 94 ultra since it's so plentiful around the Philly metro area. So far, knock on wood, it's been good to me.

[HwyCruiser]

Yeah, gas really sucks in KC. You guys that have access to 93+ are lucky.

My MM sounds like its powered by Singer from the drivers seat on anything but BP/Amoco 92 octane. And only at one particular gas station in a high traffic area too.

I've poked around with an engine stethoscope and as far as I can tell its just louder injector noise. When I do have to put other gas in I just turn up the radio until I can get back to my favorite watering hole.

[HwyCruiser]

Greg,

I drove by the Citgo station in Merriam (1 block east of Johnson Drive and Lamar) your mechanic said at last week's dyno session that he though still sold race gas, and there it was - a 100 octane unleaded at a drive-up pump.

Good thing I wasn't in the MM because it @ $4.70 / gal it would have been an expensive impulse purchase. Even mixing half-and-half with 92 that's still about $65 for a tank of 96 (effective).

Maybe I'll start tossing $10 under the seat every time I get for a cruise and see how that works out. :rolleyes:

[BillyGman]

I don't know if it's possible that it really matters what brand of gasoline that we use, (I tend to think that brand probably doesn't matter) but incase I'm wrong on that, for what it's worth, here in Connecticut, I use nothing but 93 octane Mobil gasoline all year round, and I've driven the car very hard in all outside temperatures from 8 degrees to 88 degrees, and I've never had any problems niether before the car was supercharged, nor afterwards (thanks for the great tune in the chip Lidio). I hope that this helps someone in some way.

[67435animal]

Yes, BillyG I believe anything anyone tells me. Stop being so condescending. I was merely giving information that I found and from experience with pinging problems, this octane boost worked well.

Here is a more detailed explaination from their website.

The term "points" is commonly used in the automotive industry when referring to the octane increase a product offers. This is different from the figures shown at your local gas pump, where the octane "rating" of a gasoline is measured in "numbers". This can sometimes create confusion as to how "points" translate to "numbers". The following calculation can be used to translate points to numbers:

1 octane point = 0.1 octane number

Increasing the octane of gasoline has several positive effects on automobile performance. A higher octane gasoline will allow a car to run smoother by reducing knocks and pings, which ultimately restores lost performance.


An example of this might be:


Common regular unleaded gasoline is rated at 87 octane at the gas pump. If you treat that gasoline with an octane enhancement product that claims a 5 "point" increase, then the end result will be a gasoline that has an 87.5 octane rating. In this example, the octane enhancement product provided 5 "points", which is equal to 0.5 octane numbers.


Prestone® 0 to 60® Booster provides 10 points of octane increase, which will increase the octane of regular unleaded gasoline by a full number. In this case, an 87 octane rated fuel would go to 88 after treatment with Prestone® 0 to 60® Booster.

I'll jump into the Octane Booster vs racing fuel discussion only because I mix 110 leaded with (not-so) super unleaded to get around 98-100 for the vehicle below.

My experience with boosters is that they are a waste of money. They 'boost' octane .5 or .8 points perhaps, but, they leave behind a rust like deposit in your upper cylinders. Pull a spark plug and imagine that crap all over the top of your pistons and on your valves!

Racing fuel can be mixed to really 'boost' your octane...by numbers, not points!

I mix 1 gallon of 110 to 2 gallons of pump gas and my car is very happy.

To each his own, but, with octane boosters, you may do some unexpected damage.

Bob

[Marauderjack]

Keep in mind that cold air is DENSER air.......More oxygen!! With more oxygen you effectively run LEANER.......Voila.....Knock-Knock!!! :confused:

I am convinced from fuel mileage (both pulling the boat and not) in Florida SUX!!! I get about 10% worse fuel mileage on gas bought in Florida than in the Carolinas or Georgia!! Go Figure!! :mad2:

Fuel Quality has suffered because of emissions and Oil Company GREED!!

Bottom line......We all have to live with CRAPPY fuel and Billy said it best...."Tune on the conservative side" and be happy with a moderately powerful "STREET BEAST"!! :D

Marauderjack :bandit: