Anyone...

[SergntMac]

Anyone here know anything about needing an "oil separator" on the PCV return line?

I think I found some new 411 on the "blue smoke at start-up" issue, but I want to be politically correct before I explain anything more.

[Zack]

Mac, you should take a look at my buddy's LS1 mod.
He took reinforced vinyl tubing and ran it into a homemade pvc canister and then out. Im a little sketchy on the details of his setup, but it works for him.

[Gryphonzus]

I know the Lightning and Harley F150's have done a mod for this reason. They usually put an oil seperator in the return line. I have the mod for my Harley but have not done it yet. Check out their website and do a search on oil seperator http://www.nhtoc.com/forum/.

[CRUZTAKER]

I know the Lightning and Harley F150's have done a mod for this reason. They usually put an oil seperator in the return line. I have the mod for my Harley but have not done it yet. Check out their website and do a search on oil seperator http://www.nhtoc.com/forum/.
There is a vendor on their website offering a unit that has good reviews.
Pic below:

[TripleTransAm]

Some PCV systems (line, orientation of PCV valve, points of pickup and insertion, etc.) can end up sucking up some oil into the intake path during some driving situations. The "oil separator" (or catch can or whatever it's been known to be called) works to allow oil to separate out of the crankcase ventilated vapors before the vapors are ingested into the intake.

I know where you're heading with this. It can be a possibility: LS1s are supposed to be known to suffer from "excessive" oil consumption for several reasons, one of them being the awkward location of the PCV valve (the other being ring "float" which occurs during low-throttle high-RPM cruising which is enjoyed by many LS1 owners). One solution to the PCV issue is relocation of the valve itself, the other is the catch can. Neither case has caused a blue-smoke-at-startup issue though, although this is an entirely different engine. In any case, the LS1 symptoms were more like "where did some of my oil go during these 3000 miles?" and not due to any deposits inside the intake at the PCV feed which is normal.

I'm very interested in knowing if the 4.6 DOHC suffers from a PCV-related oil problem. Looking at the PCV system layout on our cars, one would think it was fairly old-style and not prone to this type of problem, but I'd really like to see what info you came across.

Side note: I had blue smoke on startup before my cylinder head was changed, now I no longer have any blue smoke on startup... at all. No matter how long the car has sat. No change to my PCV system, from what I can visibly tell.

[merc406]

Cover has a baffle but won't help depending on how much oil builds up in the cover, then you would have oil sucking through the pvc and line.

[QWK SVT]

I know the Lightning and Harley F150's have done a mod for this reason. They usually put an oil seperator in the return line. I have the mod for my Harley but have not done it yet. Check out their website and do a search on oil seperator http://www.nhtoc.com/forum/.
The Lightnings/Harleys do not have a baffle in the covers. When you are dep into boost, and let off, a substancial amount of oil is pulled into the intake, as a result of the vacuum-effect.

For me, with less than 12,000 miles on the odo, there was oil in the intake boot. When I pulled the blower, this is what I saw, hiding underneath:
http://www.qwksvt.com/Lightning_Files/Blower/Bay.jpg

I took a long while, and a few bottles of carb cleaner to clean out the intercooler, before I put it all back together. To avoid this, in the future, I went with the kit, from REM (linky-linky here (http://www.razorsedgemotorsports.com) ). I have to empty it, every oil change (~2,500 - 3,000 mile). :eek:
http://www.razorsedgemotorsports.com/catalog/images/seperator.jpg

It's basically something you could put together, from HomeDepot parts, if you were so inclined. The kit was perfectly fit for the truck, and I'm lazy...

[TripleTransAm]

Interesting. Sounds like a problem for the boosted folks... does the Mustang Cobra suffer from the same problem?

[DEFYANT]

I found alot of info on this subject on svtperformace.com. The 96-98 Cobras have defective valve cover baffles that allow excessive oil to be sucked up. Ford was supposed to have fixed this on later designs. Seems they didn't! I dont like the look of the oil seperator.

Why not just use the simple air filter style breathers?

[merc406]

The Lightnings/Harleys do not have a baffle in the covers. When you are dep into boost, and let off, a substancial amount of oil is pulled into the intake, as a result of the vacuum-effect.

For me, with less than 12,000 miles on the odo, there was oil in the intake boot. When I pulled the blower, this is what I saw, hiding underneath:
http://www.qwksvt.com/Lightning_Files/Blower/Bay.jpg

I took a long while, and a few bottles of carb cleaner to clean out the intercooler, before I put it all back together. To avoid this, in the future, I went with the kit, from REM (linky-linky here (http://www.razorsedgemotorsports.com) ). I have to empty it, every oil change (~2,500 - 3,000 mile). :eek:
http://www.razorsedgemotorsports.com/catalog/images/seperator.jpg

It's basically something you could put together, from HomeDepot parts, if you were so inclined. The kit was perfectly fit for the truck, and I'm lazy...






OMG, I just took it for granted that it was baffeled, maybe it's not? When you using what amounts to water for oil as thin as it is, how could you leave one off? :bs:

[Logan]

I miss my Lightning.

[Agent M79]

From maraudernkc's thread "P/c Dyno Disapointment" ...


I also found the oil to be a leak in my PCV system that was sucking oil into the air path, and we fixed that just yesterday afternoon.Mac, how did you end up addressing this?

[O's Fan Rich]

This is the answer to my low speed oil burning in my 95 Suburban?
I get a smokey situation at idle and very low ( 5- 10 mph) situations.
Hmmmmmm......

[QWK SVT]

Interesting. Sounds like a problem for the boosted folks... does the Mustang Cobra suffer from the same problem?
Yeah, the Cobras do the same, but not as much. I believe they DO have baffles... They also got manley rods, to handle high boost :rolleyes: (back to topic, now)...

I think it's probably a reasonable assumption that this would also impact a Marauder with an Eaton on top (same blower in the Lightning/Cobra). Since it happens when the engine is into boost, and then the driver raises his/her foot, I imagine the outcome remains the same. It would be really easy, for someone here to find out if this is happening to them.

It would involve 5-minutes, from someone with an Eaton, that's driven it hard, for more than a few miles (not to single someone out, but BillyGman fits the bill ;))... Anyway, all that's needed is to pull the intake tubing off, and see if there's any sign of oil either in the intake boot, or on the throttle body. If there is, welcome to the club :wave:

[SergntMac]

Mac, how did you end up addressing this?
Sorry for the delay in reply, but I've been waiting for several symptoms to cure themselves. So far, it's working, but I need pics to show y'all what I want to explain. More later, stay tuned?

[Nathan]

It would involve 5-minutes, from someone with an Eaton, that's driven it hard, for more than a few miles (not to single someone out, but BillyGman fits the bill ;))... Anyway, all that's needed is to pull the intake tubing off, and see if there's any sign of oil either in the intake boot, or on the throttle body. If there is, welcome to the club :wave:

I have 10k miles on my MM since the Trilogy kit install. I don't drive it hard every day, but she's seen quite a few trips down the quarter at full throttle in the last year. I recently installed the K&N Filter Charger kit and didn't notice any oil in the stock tubing or throttle body during the change out. I hope this helps.

[SergntMac]

Well, I'm going to try to keep this long story short, here goes. I warn y'all, I write like I talk.

After completing my engine build, I was bothered by a few engine oil leaks, leaks I never had before. Most of them were typical engine R&R stuff Zack and I sealed off, but one leak was persistent, leaving a watery-oilly puddle on the garage floor that I could not trace back to any particular area of the engine.

Turns out, this leak was coming from my air induction path, specifically, my K&N filter mounted in the the right front fenderwell, behind the fog lamp. This is Kenny's "air box." It may be Reinhart's and Maraudernkc's air box too, I'm not sure. Oops...Let me back up a step the newbies who may be reading this.

My MM is Kenny Brown's #1x build, an experimental MM. First supercharged MM ever, and using the Vortech centrifugal style of supercharger to accomplish that. Built over the summer of 2002, my MM isn't a "kit," or, a collection of "mods" as we think of them today. Rather, my MM is a complete custom build of a whole performance car from scratch, in a time when nothing we call "mods" today existed. This adventure was all experimental, and many things were done many times over just to get it all done right.

This car became a template for many other vendors here, helping them develop their own mods for the Marauder. It was very innovative, and highly inspirational in what could be done to an MM, and factual in how to get that done, which is why the car is called "Patches." This is a "one-of-a-kind" Marauder, I've got mods even other Kenny Brown owners didn't get.

Unique to this MM, is that the Vortech centrifugal blower is lubricated by a pressurized line tapped from the oil filter mount. Once this oil does it's blower lube thing, it drains into the front of the oil pan. Also, the PCV system has been re-routed, in a manner I cannot explain well in print, but I can say that the driver's side PCV vents into the induction path on the suck side of the Vortech blower, via a 5/8" hose running around the rear of the engine, and down into the air path next to the battery. Why, I don't know. But, look here...

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showphoto.php/photo/6811/password/d746d272dfed711f349d5453ed3b71 f7/sort/1/cat/500/page/1

That 5/8" hose leads to here...That square brass fitting under the elbow that feeds the blower inlet.

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showphoto.php/photo/6812/password/d746d272dfed711f349d5453ed3b71 f7/sort/1/cat/500/page/1

My symptoms were 1) watery-oilly discharge from the K&N filter after the engine has been run hard, and 2) engine oil introduced back into the air charge before that charge is processed by the MAF.

FYI sidebar...The KB Vortech design is a "blow through" MAF, where the blower feeds charged air to the MAF. Reinhart's Vortech/centrifugal design is a "suck through," where the MAF reads the air before feeding it to the the blower for charging. I guess that the Trilogy/Eaton/roots design is also a "suck through," because the MAF feeds the blower in that design too, and I can't say what's happening with Maraudernkc's ProCharger design, because I honestly don't know. Could go either way. BTW, they're all good, just different. FYI, K?

My first attempt at repair was to disconnect the feed line from the driver's side PCV, and plug it, adding a breather to the valve cover. Look here...

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showphoto.php/photo/6814/password/d746d272dfed711f349d5453ed3b71 f7/sort/1/cat/500/page/1

Wrong...This just introduced more oil into the air path, to the degree that the rear main seal on the blower shaft blew out, and sprayed oil all over the engine bay under power. Wrong yes, but hey, you gotta start this pathology stuff by rulling out suspects, and this suspect was released without charges. Yet, it remains a source for oil too, so, "don't leave town." LOL...

Here's my "duh" and "dough" moment. I just rebuilt the engine, which will naturally allow oil to blow past piston rings until they seat properly and seal themselves off. I also lowered compression (9.1:1) and upgraded the boost to 12 PSI, almost all at the same time. I also (accidentally) discovered how much resistance to air flow my KB induction path (measured from the blower inlet down to the K&N filter) presented to the new boost. Accidentially, I removed the only source of relief to the problem, by cutting off the driver's side PCV...I hope y'all are following me.

Now that this oil source was cut off, the blower was sucking oil out of the oil pan via it's drain hose. What didn't go into the blower and through the MAF, drained back down the induction path, and on to my garage floor.

I restored the driver's side PCV connection and the blower impeller shaft seal blow-out stopped. But, the blower was still sucking oil into the air charge. The solution became to install a one-way check valve into the PCV system, but on the passenger side, not the driver's side PCV hose. It looks like this...

http://www.mercurygallery.net/mmnet/showphoto.php/photo/6813/password/d746d272dfed711f349d5453ed3b71 f7/sort/1/cat/500/page/1

If y'all look at your upper intake, you'll see a hose leading from the passenger side PCV connection at the front of the valve cover, to the upper intake. This "Earl's" one-way check valve allows the PCV to operate at it's normal PSI, but it stops the blower from sucking back PCV fumes into the intake.

Yes...This problem is shared with other blown 4.6 cars.

Yes, an oil separator is one of the fixes explored. I'm not sure I will need to go this route right now, this is still a crime scene investigation in progress. Nonetheless, I'll keep y'all posted.

Neither am I sure just yet, how this affects the "blue smoke at start-up" of the N/A MMs here. But, it points in that direction...IMHO...A stuck PCV valve on the passenger side valve cover? Worth checking out, eh?

Too much 411 already...Sorry...But, I said it wouldn't be easy to explain.

Happy New Year, y'all. It's orange alert lock down for me from here on in, see y'all next year!

[Joe Walsh]

The SVO Mustang guys have been dealing with this PCV-Oil seperater issue for years with the 2.3 Turbo engines running BIG BOOST.
You might want to check out the 'TURBOFORD' website and run a search on the many threads about PCV valves, Oil seperaters, check valves, etc.
Oil & Oil Vapors in a highly boosted engine's intake is not good! :(

[merc406]

Just an observation here after looking at the pic's, I have never taken the PCV from the rear of a valve cover, low angle of the motor is where the oil will be highest in the cover.

[FordNut]

Just an observation here after looking at the pic's, I have never taken the PCV from the rear of a valve cover, low angle of the motor is where the oil will be highest in the cover.
I've been looking into this a bit, myself. The OEM PCV system operates by having the intake vacuum connected to the PCV valve on the passenger side. The flow path for the Positive Crankcase Ventilation system gets some of its positive flow source from internal (blow-by) sources, but the main inlet is the driver side PCV hose connected to the intake tube. There is no valve on the driver side, just an inlet hose fitting.

The problem I am having is figuring out how this flow path changes in the boosted cars. And is it being changed so the PCV system functions in the most effective manner?

As we saw in another thread recently, Hot Rod magazine has reported that there is supposedly some merit in operating with the crankcase under a slight vacuum to increase horsepower. If a vacuum pump is connected, does it still need an inlet source for positive flow, or does it simply get connected to vacuum? If it does not have an open inlet source, the only way for gases to be purged is to suck out blowby gases. If it has an open inlet for good purging, there is no way to pull a decent vacuum.

[merc406]

I've been looking into this a bit, myself. The OEM PCV system operates by having the intake vacuum connected to the PCV valve on the passenger side. The flow path for the Positive Crankcase Ventilation system gets some of its positive flow source from internal (blow-by) sources, but the main inlet is the driver side PCV hose connected to the intake tube. There is no valve on the driver side, just an inlet hose fitting.

The problem I am having is figuring out how this flow path changes in the boosted cars. And is it being changed so the PCV system functions in the most effective manner?

As we saw in another thread recently, Hot Rod magazine has reported that there is supposedly some merit in operating with the crankcase under a slight vacuum to increase horsepower. If a vacuum pump is connected, does it still need an inlet source for positive flow, or does it simply get connected to vacuum? If it does not have an open inlet source, the only way for gases to be purged is to suck out blowby gases. If it has an open inlet for good purging, there is no way to pull a decent vacuum.






This should help--http://www.dragstuff.com/techarticles/vacuum-pumps.html

[warren]

Anyone here know anything about needing an "oil separator" on the PCV return line?

I think I found some new 411 on the "blue smoke at start-up" issue, but I want to be politically correct before I explain anything more.
Steeda has one - comes with a bracket & all parts - no. 555-3710
See www.steeda.com/store/-catalog/555-3710.htm (http://www.steeda.com/store/-catalog/555-3710.htm)
It's made for 03-04 Cobras however would fit on our MM's.
Looks like it would mount up ok.
I noticed when I opened up my intake manf. last month that their was oil stains inside - not lots. It must have been the oil from the PVC.

WarrenB:)