P/c Dyno Disapointment

[maraudernkc]

Well guys I have always been honest with you all and today was very disapointing. I thought today would be my final Dyno and tune. The plan was to make a run with the converter locked up and than put the DR manifolds and X pipe on. Well we used a base SCT file and ran the car with the converter locked up and got the below number and than we added the DR Manifolds and X pipe and got the below numbers.

2004 Marauder 92 Ocatne 71 degrees SAE corrected converter locked.

401.23RWHP 366.93 RWTQ A/F Ratio 11 to1

Than ran the Dyno with same as above but with DR Cobra Manifolds and X pipe

378.11RWHP 347.08RWTQ A/F Ratio 12 to 1

These were run with the same base SCT file. A loss of 23 RWHP and 19RWTQ because we added exhaust. What the hell is going on? This makes no sense to me right now. Have you ever seen a MM boat anchor?

I feels like it needs more volume of air. I might try another impeller that will push more air than what I have now.

Any ideals you have I will listen to. This is very fustrating because I will not let this kit go out to anyone until I am 110% happy with the one on my car.I am a MM enthusiast and want what's best for all.

I try to keep you guys that are interested updated on this even if the news is not so good sometimes. Hwycruiser came by for half the Day and hung out. Thanks for the suport JD.

Thanks, Greg (maraudernkc)

[MikesMerc]

Any chance of being able to throw up some dyno graphs? Particularly, a dyno graph with the Boost (PSI) and Air:Fuel ratio curves would really help.

Although everyone jumped on me pretty hard for suggesting that a power loss might result when opening up the exhaust, I'm not surprised by the results. That said, I'm sure some additional tuning will get you the results you seek, and that the improvement with the exhaust work is still locked up in the combination somewhere.

If you cannot post graphs, here are some addtional questions/thoughts:

What max boost are you getting?
Are you getting belt slippage on the top end?
Any where dips or valleys in the TQ or HP curves?
What is boost at 3,4,5, and 6k rpm?
Any wierd spikes or dips in the air:fuel curve?
Do you have inlet temps to report?
Do you measure the inlet temps during the pull? Do they spike over aggressively?
Do you close the gap on the plugs to prevent "blow out"?
Any missing or hesitation under load with boost?

If you can provide more info and I might be able to think up another thing or two. More data is needed.

Keep up the good fight. Your still making good progress.

[HwyCruiser]

Greg,

Thanks for letting me hang out today. I had a lot of fun watching and observing the dyno tuning session. I know that you left a bit frustrated but you're into R&D big time here.

A few observations...

1 - The tuner was using SCT software and seemed to know what he was doing, but this was his first Marauder. The tuner also tuned a screaming cammed Camaro SS to 410 rwhp during the exhaust work. He took phone coaching from whoever Greg was talking to on the cell (whoever sent him the base tune) pretty well. Not a whole lot of major adjustments were made other than backing off a few degrees of timing and adding a few percentages of fuel in between pulls. The A/F was sampled at the tailpipe and the tuner didn't have a pressure sensor to be able to graph boost but they worked off Greg's boost gauge.

2 - The baseline was probably closer to 385-390 rwhp as the 1st base tune pull demonstrated, the 401 rwhp peak on the 2nd base tune pull was one of those "let me tease you when you let off at 6000 rpm spikes". Awesome numbers either way you looked at it with the OEM exhaust, no doubt at all.

3 - The effects of the DR Cobra manifold / x-pipe swap was simply baffling. Anyone would have jumped up and down in glee if the numbers were reversed, but they weren't. Not only a loss of peak numbers but quite a bit of area under the curves were lost as well. Even after adding fuel and backing out timing a few times the numbers just refused to budge to Greg's favor.

4 - The 90mm draw-through MAF would saturate during the pull. I don't know what effect this has on the PCM, maybe it may clue in some of our more knowledgable folks here. The A/F didn't have any wierd spikes or dips, pretty flat lines during WOT.

5 - From what I understand, the knock sensors would back off the timing during the pulls a few degrees, let it back in, pull it back out. Greg was running 92 octane BP/Amoco gold. No pinging was noticed during any pull.


Greg's going to have to scan in his dyno graphs and post them for further info. Fire away with the questions, I'm sure he'll answer them to the best of his ability. He's got tuners looking at his data, and any help from our pool of knowledge here I'm sure would greatly be appreciated.

I know Greg's not going to let this setback get the best of him. Personally, I think the final kit will look, sound, and perform killer. Just a little more tweeking and this will be in the bag.

I would like to thank Greg for being honest and open during his R&D and allowing a fellow member to observe. Good meeting you and good luck!

- JD

[CRUZTAKER]

Wow...that's wierd...although I am N/A, and perhaps that is the sole reason, I saw MAJOR improvements with the exhaust opened up. In my case a complete KOOKS kit, but either exhaust should show some improvement.

Perhaps Mike is more correct than even he thinks in regards to opening up the exhaust on a blown car...:dunno:

I have no clue.

[maraudernkc]

I have no clue today but I will after I forget about it for a Day!




Wow...that's wierd...although I am N/A, and perhaps that is the sole reason, I saw MAJOR improvements with the exhaust opened up. In my case a complete KOOKS kit, but either exhaust should show some improvement.

Perhaps Mike is more correct than even he thinks in regards to opening up the exhaust on a blown car...:dunno:

I have no clue.

[MENINBLK]

You may want to pass it by some of the folks at Crazy Horse in New Jersey.
They do a LOT of work on Mustangs and are always mentioned in many of the Mustang Magazines.
I visited there with the Contour group for a Dyno Day and the tech was telling me
that he had seen dyno pulls where a larger exhaust caused a loss of power instead of a gain,
but the benefits of a larger exhaust can be sometimes seen elsewhere instead of top end HP and TQ.

So you may have to look a little closer at your results to see exactly what the differences are
and what you have to do to get the power up to the levels you are expecting.


Some things I can think of (thinking out loud here...)

Did you monitor the O2 sensors ?
If they are indicating a lean condition, as your AF Ratio was 11 - 12%,
that will limit the amount of power available and make the engine run hot.
You should try running in the 15 - 17% range.
This will run cooler and should create more power and keep you in a safe range
so you don't run lean and burn up your valves and plugs.

You also mentioned that the 90mm MAF was saturated.
You may want to try a larger/adjustable MAF, and possibly a single blade Throttle body,
to see if that allows you more air through the intake.
You are going to need more air to build up the pressure inside the larger exhaust and increase your power.

The next thing you would want to watch for is the duty cycle of the injectors being saturated.
Once this happens, you'll need bigger injectors to keep the AF ratio correct.

[Zack]

At this power level, the 90mm lightning MAF is just fine.
It is important to remember that you cannot expect the best to happen from over e-mail tuning files. Is the tuner actually tuning? Is he using a data logger?
When I had just installed my Vortech with 8lbs of boost and shorty headers, I was making 438rwhp and 391rwtq.
Dont worry, It will work out. If I can help with the tuning, just ask.
I have the software and can e-mail you files if need be.
708-747-1300 8-5
708-476-2647 after 5
Zack

[SouLRioT]

Did you keep the stock mufflers?

[Bradley G]

Hang in there Greg,You are on new traveled ground with your set-up!I have read this before (losing power)as Mike mentioned.You will get where you want,and as far as your progress,You are doing just fine!keep the updates comming!Good luck Greg
Bradley G

[MikesMerc]

Good extra info JD!

A few thoughts regarding such:

It would be particularly beneficial to use a dyno tuning facility that utilizes a wide band 02 sensor which is bung mounted into the exhaust system before the cats. Those tailpipe sensors can be waaaay off. Not a slam to the current tuner, just a fact. Getting the dead nuts air fuel is very important.

I agree with Zack, a 90mm mass air should be fine for feeding up to 500 rwhp.

In an attempt to get MORE power I am surprise to hear that they were backing off timing and fattening up the fuel curve (which always leads to LESS power). I can only surmize that they were attempting to prevent the knock sensors from kicking in (which were over compensating and causing a greater loss of power).

Although pinging was not audible, it can, and does, occur without being heard. Especially on the dyno were the noise is high. If the knock sensors are kicking in, they are sensing somehing they do not like.

This leads me to why I asked about inlet temps. I thought greg mentioned that inlet temps were in great shape. But, if temps get too high, you're gonna get detonation at higher boost levels that will not be easily mitigated by fatter fuel curves and less timing. High inlet temps + High boost pressure = tuning troubles. Not saying that is happening. Just brainstorming here.

Your fuel delivery would probably be okay as you'd be knocking badly if you leaned out due to inadequate fuel deliver (pump and injectors). Again, a rock solid wideband 02 is what is needed. ALthough I don't disagree with the suggestion to watch the factory 02 sensors, understand that 02 sensors in the car are not accurate nearly as accurate as a high quality wideband 02 sensor.

I'm still not convinced you do not have belt slippage. Eyeballing a guage its much much harder to see a boost drop or fade. SC belts can slip without squeeling.

If I had to guess, the culprit might be the knock sensors. You shouldn't be seeing any reduction of timing from them. Even a few degrees being pulled out from the knock sensors will kill power. Either you are too lean, have too much timing, or your inlet temps are too high for the boost you're making. Something is causing those sensors to trigger which may be your problem. I can see in a situation like this, where making more power (from the exhaust upgrade) actually hurts as it triggered the sensors and timing was pulled which reduced power in excess of the gains from the exhaust work.

Keep us posted.

[sailsmen]

Does the Trilogy Kit eliminate the knock sensors?

I beleive you have only had a few Dyno pulls. Don't be discouraged these things take time.

You may want to try and arrange for Jerry W. or another Marauder S/C Tuner to try and sort things out.

[Bradley G]

They are relocated

Bradley G


Does the Trilogy Kit eliminate the knock sensors?

I beleive you have only had a few Dyno pulls. Don't be discouraged these things take time.

You may want to try and arrange for Jerry W. or another Marauder S/C Tuner to try and sort things out.

[maraudernkc]

Yes, it's nice and quiet except for the whine.




Did you keep the stock mufflers?

[Smokie]

Greg, I agree with Zack, what you need is real tuning, improving exhaust and adding boost cannot in itself reduce power. But your PCM no longer is recieving the same inputs and I am certain that it is your PCM where you are loosing power. Generic tuning files can only take you so far....a custom tune that accomodates all the new inputs from sensors will yield the power that is there waiting to be found.

Hang in there, you are doing great and I look forward to your next report.:bows:

[SergntMac]

Don't be put off by this, Greg, it's what happens in the "research" phase of any custom build. The way I see things, you set out for produce a S/C kit that would provide X RWHP and X RWTQ within a specific cost range. You did that, and produced very pleasing power numbers on a bone stock MM, for very conservative costs when compared to other kits. Bravo! However, now you're changing other related components, and changing things invites a "domino" reaction to the change.

If we agree that any v-8 is a big air pump, what the Cobra exhaust has done is open the outlet of the air pump. A bigger back door, so to speak. Now you need to pump more air into the air pump to tweak and balance air processing. This has happened to me, and I'm still in R&D on my build.

My experience mirrors your excerience, save a few minor points. My MM punched out 455 RWHP/399 RWTQ on a bone stock engine. I rebuilt the engine with stronger internals, custom valve job, gaskets, balance and blueprint, 9:1 compression drop, and so on. Back to the dyno with no other changes, and I lost 64 RWHP and 49 RWTQ. No big deal, I expected this, time to retune and see what/where I can recover/restore power. BTW, despite the loss, the car runs quick like never before. Goofy, isn't it?

I asked Lidio to tune my new build using his approach, and he restored/recovered to 412 RWHP/378 RWTQ. Once I returned home, I rechecked everything on my home dyno, and copied 436 RWHP/386 RWTQ to my files at Mike's HP with no tuning changes at all, so, there's the difference between the two DynoJet machines.

Just for fun, I removed the air induction path as it runs up from under the battery box, and I found a lot of crankcase oil present. We did some pulls with the blower sucking hot air from inside the engine bay alone, straight into the blower, no duct work and gained 17 RWHP at the 1-2 shift and another 9 RWHP at the 2-3 shift. Air path needs some work, wouldn't you agree?

My conclusion is, I'm not pumping enough air into the blower (Vortech V-2, "S" trim, 3.12 pulley, 12 PSI). I also found the oil to be a leak in my PCV system that was sucking oil into the air path, and we fixed that just yesterday afternoon. Bottom line...My "S" trim is on the low end of power production now, and it's time to upgrade to the "T" trim, with a larger impeller and more aggressive vane angle, much the same as you express, yes? This power would have blown my head gaskets on the bone stock build, but I'm not worried about that now. It's not over, Greg, imagine what your loss would/could have been with the Kook's exhaust?

Now you know what Kenny Brown went through over two years ago, and what Dennis experienced shortly after that. R&D on a blower kit isn't easy work, or, immediately rewarding. However, you're doing great work here, please stay on the project and keep us posted. Looks like your MM kit will have power options after all?

[HwyCruiser]

The local speed shop tuner was renting dyno time and was very helpful with adjusting parameters over the phone via advice from the base tuner. But as noted, this was his first Marauder and not his tune. Should the shop have a boost sensor, sure. Should they take o2 from an exhaust bung, sure. But the tuner was using a data logger, had answers at hand and sent this info back to the base tuner. Not ideal, but we're in the tall grass out here.

I don't think Greg anticipated anything other than documenting some before and after power curves with the high flow exhaust. Same dyno, same day, unexpected results - and its a good thing for everyone that he took the time and expense to test this popular mod - much better to know now than hear about it later, no?

I spoke with Greg today and he is in the process of regrouping, getting his facts straight and planning his next step. He seems to has the resources to pull the kit off big time, but he told me he isn't about to rush a product out to market he isn't satisfied with.

[sailsmen]

SERGNTMAC, how much do you think your different HP readings are due to a tight engine that is still breaking in?

[maraudernkc]

The tune was a base tune right out of the SCT file than you add 90 MM MAF 42LB Injectors and so on. The air fuel ratio was very close. We were told to pull an addional 2 degrees out of the base file timming that's it everthing else was stock SCT. Let's face it someone that has never tuned a marauder before is not going to know shift points and other tricks to make the car right but they shoud know the basic air/fuel and timming tables etc. I would think if you have done a bunch of s/c mustangs than you could tune a s / c marauder but what do I know maybe it's something I have done wrong in putting together my kit. Let's see

P1SC ProCharger Blower
2 Core Sheetmetal cooler 3" thick(mounted in front of the grille)
42lb Injectors
90 MM Lightning MAF
Draw-thru system for easier tune HA HA !!!
Twin Cobra pumps
Surge valve
External Air intake sensor located at the intake
K&N Filter (without filter makes 1/2 lb. more boost not that restriciv)

Air Temapture at filter is Ambient
Air tempature going into the motor 39 degrees above ambient
9 1/2 PSI
I am using 92 ocatne from BP

I am taking the Blower off the car and putting a helix style impeller on the blower it moves more air more effiecent and of course more expensive. If it feels good and if it is good I will make one Dyno run and see what it does with the excat same file that did 401RWHP and than with exhaust went to 378RWHP.

I will figure this out but maybe one of you guys already know. This is the best web site around.

Thanks, Greg (maraudernkc)

ps. If anybody wants to give me a call my Cell # is 913/302-5780







The local speed shop tuner was renting dyno time and was very helpful with adjusting parameters over the phone via advice from the base tuner. But as noted, this was his first Marauder and not his tune. Should the shop have a boost sensor, sure. Should they take o2 from an exhaust bung, sure. But the tuner was using a data logger, had answers at hand and sent this info back to the base tuner. Not ideal, but we're in the tall grass out here.

I don't think Greg anticipated anything other than documenting some before and after power curves with the high flow exhaust. Same dyno, same day, unexpected results - and its a good thing for everyone that he took the time and expense to test this popular mod - much better to know now than hear about it later, no?

I spoke with Greg today and he is in the process of regrouping, getting his facts straight and planning his next step. He seems to has the resources to pull the kit off big time, but he told me he isn't about to rush a product out to market he isn't satisfied with.

[MikesMerc]

Should the shop have a boost sensor, sure. Should they take o2 from an exhaust bung, sure. But the tuner was using a data logger, had answers at hand and sent this info back to the base tuner. Not ideal, but we're in the tall grass out here.

I don't think Greg anticipated anything other than documenting some before and after power curves with the high flow exhaust. Same dyno, same day, unexpected results - and its a good thing for everyone that he took the time and expense to test this popular mod - much better to know now than hear about it later, no?


Hey, no one is crticizing anything here. I've provided nothing but good intentioned ideas (as has everyone else here on this thread) on how greg might best acheive his desired results. When it comes down to tuning a brand new SC kit, having the right equipment and tuner is obviously key. No need to defend greg here...he is doing a fine job! This stuff takes time and patience.

[HwyCruiser]

Hey, no one is crticizing anything here. I've provided nothing but good intentioned ideas (as has everyone else here on this thread) on how greg might best acheive his desired results. When it comes down to tuning a brand new SC kit, having the right equipment and tuner is obviously key. No need to defend greg here...he is doing a fine job! This stuff takes time and patience.

I agree 100%.

[tmac1337]

Keep up the good work here Greg. Your posts display your absolute honesty in this endeavor, which equates into a salesman/product we can trust and invest in later. Thanks for the effort! And in short order, it will be "Thanks for taking the time to deliver a great kit!"

[Dennis Reinhart]

Well guys I have always been honest with you all and today was very disapointing. I thought today would be my final Dyno and tune. The plan was to make a run with the converter locked up and than put the DR manifolds and X pipe on. Well we used a base SCT file and ran the car with the converter locked up and got the below number and than we added the DR Manifolds and X pipe and got the below numbers.

2004 Marauder 92 Ocatne 71 degrees SAE corrected converter locked.

401.23RWHP 366.93 RWTQ A/F Ratio 11 to1

Than ran the Dyno with same as above but with DR Cobra Manifolds and X pipe

378.11RWHP 347.08RWTQ A/F Ratio 12 to 1

These were run with the same base SCT file. A loss of 23 RWHP and 19RWTQ because we added exhaust. What the hell is going on? This makes no sense to me right now. Have you ever seen a MM boat anchor?

I feels like it needs more volume of air. I might try another impeller that will push more air than what I have now.

Any ideals you have I will listen to. This is very fustrating because I will not let this kit go out to anyone until I am 110% happy with the one on my car.I am a MM enthusiast and want what's best for all.

I try to keep you guys that are interested updated on this even if the news is not so good sometimes. Hwycruiser came by for half the Day and hung out. Thanks for the suport JD.

Thanks, Greg (maraudernkc)
Now I cannot believe there is that much difference in the blowers with Greg's set up over mine or KB, I know that there is a logical answer and I feel this issue can be resolved, there are any number of things that can contribute to the lack of power, IAT FP quality of gas, again if I had specific data it would help and I could ask my friends at SCT there take on this, again Gregg is attempting to do this without having it on the dyno all the time he is using a wide band.

Gregg is using a 90 MMLM 42 pound injectors, again what is great about SCT is they have the Raptor Data logger and this info could be a great help in situations like this, you can monitor all Pids with this and it provides precise feedback on what is going on with the car.

[martyo]

What is great about SCT is they have the Raptor Data logger and this info could be a great help in situations like this, you can monitor all Pids with this and it provides precise feedback on what is going on with the car.

Eventually he will need to do this. Tuning on a trial and error basis could get costly fast if he loses a motor in the process.

[studio460]

Greg:

Really appreciate the honest data you've been posting, and for keeping all of us informed on your progress! I understand your disappointment, but really, I don't expect much greater numbers on 91-92 octane gas anyway. Maybe there's more to get, maybe not (has anyone else posted significantly higher numbers on 91-92 octane?). I'm just happy you're tuning for 91-92 in the first place, since that's all I'll ever see in California anyway. As for the headers, that's kinda "good" news in that, at least that's another $1,000 I won't have to spend on this project (I have LOTS of other very expensive hobbies--I just ordered over $4,000 of new Nikon photo equipment: a D70 DSLR and some fast Nikkor AF-S lenses)! Keep up the great work--we're all pulling for you!

[maraudernkc]

Well we measured the boost per square inch at the blower and at the intake of the motor and it was 4 pounds per square inch. It should be about 2 1/2 pounds per square inch. So the problem lies withing the 90 degree bends and maybe the intercooler. We are going to try a huge 3 core sheetmetal Intercooler mounted down low that has a built in air scoop. It's cool and we are going to take the five 90 dgree bends that are in the sytem tubing and go to 3 1/2 inches. This will make the blower more effiecent and lower the intake temp. to the motor down to about 15 to 20 above ambient.

I have my fingers crossed that this will do the trick. I think it will!

Everyone have a safe and Happy New Year!!!!

Greg (maraudernkc)

[maraudernkc]

Our goal is about 450 WRHP and 400RWT with the exhaust running 9 PSI on 92 octane gas with out the exhaust it shoud be about 425RWHP and a little less RWTQ.

Talk to you next year!



Greg:

Really appreciate the honest data you've been posting, and for keeping all of us informed on your progress! I understand your disappointment, but really, I don't expect much greater numbers on 91-92 octane gas anyway. Maybe there's more to get, maybe not (has anyone else posted significantly higher numbers on 91-92 octane?). I'm just happy you're tuning for 91-92 in the first place, since that's all I'll ever see in California anyway. As for the headers, that's kinda "good" news in that, at least that's another $1,000 I won't have to spend on this project (I have LOTS of other very expensive hobbies--I just ordered over $4,000 of new Nikon photo equipment: a D70 DSLR and some fast Nikkor AF-S lenses)! Keep up the great work--we're all pulling for you!

[Dennis Reinhart]

Eventually he will need to do this. Tuning on a trial and error basis could get costly fast if he loses a motor in the process.
I agree with you completly Gregg has a base file safe enough to drive on, his friend at the dyno also has SCT and has massaged this further but a some of this is done with a wide band, The data logger is a great tunning tool, you can actualy save the entire dyno pull, and you can see what the engine load is IAT coolant temp how much the knock sensors are pulling, you can see total timing as well as Maf counts engine RPM Fuel preasure drop accross a injector.


The data loger is not meant as a replacment for the dyno but it is a must when tunning on the dyno, with that you can make precise Maf air flow transfer corections, so again I am sure he will get all this worked out.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Well we measured the boost per square inch at the blower and at the intake of the motor and it was 4 pounds per square inch. It should be about 2 1/2 pounds per square inch. So the problem lies withing the 90 degree bends and maybe the intercooler. We are going to try a huge 3 core sheetmetal Intercooler mounted down low that has a built in air scoop. It's cool and we are going to take the five 90 dgree bends that are in the sytem tubing and go to 3 1/2 inches. This will make the blower more effiecent and lower the intake temp. to the motor down to about 15 to 20 above ambient.

I have my fingers crossed that this will do the trick. I think it will!

Everyone have a safe and Happy New Year!!!!

Greg (maraudernkc)
Gregg what I would do is put a bung on the inlet of the after cooler and on the outlet, the check the boost at both points this will verify boost loss if the after cooler plumbing and or the cooler itself is not right, I can do this on the dyno with the six CDS sytem we have here we can also monitor inlet and outlet air temp as well as monitor Maf voltage.

[sailsmen]

I would not be disappointed one of the S/C kits develops 389Hp and 359 TQ.

Those that have this Kit are very happy.

[Dennis Reinhart]

I would not be disappointed one of the S/C kits develops 389Hp and 359 TQ.

Those that have this Kit are very happy.

Very good point, I am sure its something that will be improved upon this was the test bed that is what its for, and Gregg has been totaly up front what more can any one ask for

[maraudernkc]

Dennis, I wish you were closer I would be there in a heartbeat.




Very good point, I am sure its something that will be improved upon this was the test bed that is what its for, and Gregg has been totaly up front what more can any one ask for

[MikesMerc]

EDIT - Oops :bop:

[MikesMerc]

I would not be disappointed one of the S/C kits develops 389Hp and 359 TQ.

Those that have this Kit are very happy.

True. But those that have this kit also enjoy great numbers throughout the entire power band. Typically centrifugal blowers make more power on the high end and less in the low end. There is far more to it than peak numbers.

Greg isn't to the point of analyzing the entire power curve yet. But, it will be something to look at down the road.



Very good point, I am sure its something that will be improved upon this was the test bed that is what its for, and Gregg has been totaly up front what more can any one ask for

No doubt. Greg's honesty and disclosure are second to none :beer: I'm sure this kit will work out!