180 Therm Too Cold?

[Svashtar]

Ran into a gear head checking out my MM in the parking lot. Very nice guy who has built up a couple of Mustangs. When he heard that I had changed to the cooler MotorCraft plugs and 180 stat, he said that was a mistake. Something about how these engines need "heat for horsepower", that Ford designed them this way, that the rings will not get hot enough to work correctly with a cooler stat, and during everyday driving (not 1/4 mile racing) the the engine will not run as a "closed system" if it doesn't get hot enough. (?) BTSOM...

Said he made the same mistake with his Mustang going from a 197 stat to a 180, and changed back to fix it later. Of course that's a 17 degree change as opposed to our 8 degrees.

I know barely enough to be dangerous, so just smiled and nodded my head, but thought I would run it by the experts on the list here.

Thanks for any input.

Norm

P.S. How could I forget: he also said that the JLT CAI I ordered, as well as the K&N kit or Paul's kit were all illegal in CA as cars would not pass smog with them. This I figured based on common sense was BS, as these kits just provide more and better air, so as long as the engine is tuned, what's the problem?

[Pat]

Glad you brought this subject up because of all the traffic on these boards, the 180 degree stat and the colder plugs is the ****nit.

From what I gather the 180 stat is popluar because the coolant in the drivers side cylinder head is not circulated well. Hence the Reinhart coolant mod. Never could determine why the colder plugs are used on the street.

Maybe we'll both get the answers we seek.

[SergntMac]

I'm no expert, but I've been driving on a 180 stat for just about 3 years now, the last year with the head cooling mod in place...No problems.

The engine reaches normal operating temps and produces cabin heat in 7 min., and that's on a zero degree day after sitting all night.

When I'm driving OTR, I'll run through a tank of gas without stopping, 75-80 MPH average. My 180 stat maintains a steady 180-185 engine temp for hours on end, cabin heat will melt your shoes.

I'm not smart enough to explain how colder plugs/stat work, other than to say that Dennis told me they optimize the combustion process, and I have no reason to question that...None. While this doesn't prove the plugs/stat are providing any benefit, neither does it prove that they do not.

I am almost 100 percent certain that when you order a Stage I kit from Dennis that includes a chip/HHP, stat, plugs and 4:10s, that the base tune provided on the chip/HHP is has tweaked timing and AFR that takes advantage of the cooler stat and plugs. He also strongly refused to sell just the stat and plugs alone, as this will result in complications, but that was a while back too. Dennis will have to clarify this.

I used the IT-20 Densos in my N/A MM, and I use the IT-22 in my S/C MM. Excellent service, no problems, the plugs are wearing fine, and I'm maintaining a good stable tune with them.

I've had dozens of dynos over the years, and my S/C MM has produced as much as 455 RWHP on Denso plugs. I will not be researching an alternative when their life expectancy peaks at 60K miles.

Your results may vary?

Ran into a gear head checking out my MM in the parking lot. Very nice guy who has built up a couple of Mustangs. When he heard that I had changed to the cooler MotorCraft plugs and 180 stat, he said that was a mistake. Something about how these engines need "heat for horsepower", that Ford designed them this way, that the rings will not get hot enough to work correctly with a cooler stat, and during everyday driving (not 1/4 mile racing) the the engine will not run as a "closed system" if it doesn't get hot enough.
The gearhead is full of crap...IMHO.

[BillyGman]

I think that you made a good point, and even answered your own question when you pointed out how that guy went with a thermostat that was 17 degrees colder than the factory stock one was on his car, whereas a 180 degree stat for our cars is merely an 8 degree reduction. I can't see eight degrees being anything to worry about.

[Fourth Horseman]

My understanding is the same as what Mac said. I'm thinking it's to help pull heat away from the combustion chamber and prevent early detonation. If you weren't adding any timing over factory settings you wouldn't want this, I'm sure.

[RF Overlord]

that the rings will not get hot enough to work correctly with a cooler stat

What? :rolleyes:


he also said that the JLT CAI I ordered, as well as the K&N kit or Paul's kit were all illegal in CA as cars would not pass smog with them.

What? :rolleyes:

Listen to ^^^what Mac said^^^

[Smokie]

I have always understood that the 180* stat and cooler plugs, whether they be Denso's or Motorcraft are intended to provided a greater margin of safety against detonation. I don't believe anyone ever said they make your car go faster, but with a little more timing they add a cushion against detonation in case you come across some crappy fuel.

[Krytin]

What Smokie said!!!
In addition - more timing = more HP up to a point!

[QWK SVT]

he also said that the JLT CAI I ordered, as well as the K&N kit or Paul's kit were all illegal in CA as cars would not pass smog with them. This I figured based on common sense was BS, as these kits just provide more and better air, so as long as the engine is tuned, what's the problem?
Uhmm... I don't know about any of the kits for the MM, but a K&N FIPK that I do have (for another vehicle) bares a CARB Number. It seems to me, that without this, California drivers may have an issue passing visual inspection, IF (ONLY IF) the operator wants to be an a$$. From an emmissions point of view, it shouldn't cause an increase.

Perhaps one of the folks from Cali can provide more insight...

[WantOneSoBad]

Why don't more of you just run 170 stat? Wouldn't that be even better than a 180?

[FordNut]

Why don't more of you just run 170 stat? Wouldn't that be even better than a 180?
Not available. Skips from 160 to 180.

[Cobra25]

I run cooler plugs Denso IT20's and a 180 stat. The stat is only a 8 deg drop.Had it over a year and no problems.

[Wires]

Does the chip change the fan setting to match the new thermostat, or is it so close that that is not necessary?


When I bought my 88 Camaro, someone took the 192 thermostat out and installed a 160. I didn't like the temperature fluxuations - driving, in the wind, it would cool due to the thermostat. At a stop-light, with no wind, the fan wouldn't cut on untill 200 something. The wild swing of the temp gauge from 170-210 bothered me, so I installed the stock 192 and didn't notice it running any worse - just more even. 200-210.

But, that was 30 degree drop, and this is only 8, so even from my ignorant pov it shouldn't do any harm.

[WantOneSoBad]

Not available. Skips from 160 to 180.
Well why not more of you with 160 stats, are they that much more expensive or is the benefit too insignificant from 180 to 160?

[wchain]

Well why not more of you with 160 stats, are they that much more expensive or is the benefit too insignificant from 180 to 160?


Theres a point that the law of diminishing returns kicks in here.

[RF Overlord]

Well why not more of you with 160 stats, are they that much more expensive or is the benefit too insignificant from 180 to 160?From an efficiency and emissions standpoint, hotter is better...from a power standpoint, cooler is better...the 180° 'stat is the optimum compromise...

[Amsoil_Dealer]

Fourth Horseman and Smokie are right about the 180F stat. The mechanic was wrong that these cars need heat to make power. Like any engine, our cars make power at less than peak cyclinder head and intake temperatures. The EPA likes high cylinder temps because there is less emissions in normally driven street cars. The high heat though can lead to detonation (AKA pinging) which is spontaneous combustion of the fuel before the piston reaches TDC. This is very bad for the car.

I am not sure about the intakes but I was under the impression that the O2 sensors and the electronics they are attached too will take car of 50 state emissions.

Don

[FordNut]

Does the chip change the fan setting to match the new thermostat, or is it so close that that is not necessary?


When I bought my 88 Camaro, someone took the 192 thermostat out and installed a 160. I didn't like the temperature fluxuations - driving, in the wind, it would cool due to the thermostat. At a stop-light, with no wind, the fan wouldn't cut on untill 200 something. The wild swing of the temp gauge from 170-210 bothered me, so I installed the stock 192 and didn't notice it running any worse - just more even. 200-210.

But, that was 30 degree drop, and this is only 8, so even from my ignorant pov it shouldn't do any harm.
The fan turn-on temp can be adjusted with the chip but not all programmers mess with it. Mine has been set to 190.

[FordNut]

Well why not more of you with 160 stats, are they that much more expensive or is the benefit too insignificant from 180 to 160?
I believe 160 is too low. The program runs the car in a rich mode (similar to a choke) up to a certain temp. The 160 can cause plug fouling, poor economy, and power loss.