500HP Without Supercharger

[blackf0rk]

I was talking to my mechanic friend who has been working Mustangs for quite some time. He has one himself; not sure on the exact specs of his, but I know it's not the same engine we have. However, he reads up on our motors 'cause he's a ford engine nut - you know. Anyways...

He was telling me of many people who have tuned their engines (the ones we have) to output 500HP without aspiration devices. He said our engines are actually detuned. In fact, when he was in school, his teacher mirrored his knowledge about this tip as well. Basically a proper chip tune, different intake, injectors, and cams will get you to 500HP with this engine.

I haven't heard anyone here talk about this fact. Does anyone have any information on this? Imagine getting this number and then adding a Trilogy (or other charger) on that thing? WOW! :banana:

[jakdad]

I was talking to my mechanic friend who has been working Mustangs for quite some time. He has one himself; not sure on the exact specs of his, but I know it's not the same engine we have. However, he reads up on our motors 'cause he's a ford engine nut - you know. Anyways...

He was telling me of many people who have tuned their engines (the ones we have) to output 500HP without aspiration devices. He said our engines are actually detuned. In fact, when he was in school, his teacher mirrored his knowledge about this tip as well. Basically a proper chip tune, different intake, injectors, and cams will get you to 500HP with this engine.

I haven't heard anyone here talk about this fact. Does anyone have any information on this? Imagine getting this number and then adding a Trilogy (or other charger) on that thing? WOW! :banana: Sounds like a lot of HP for 281 cubic inches with only cam, chip and injector up grade. Guys with 500 HP and up Lightnings with the blown 330 incher have a lot of mods and dyno time.
Good luck

[Smokie]

And when you say 500 hp, you mean at the rear wheels or the flywheel ?

[BigMerc]

either way our crappy connecting rods won't hold up to that HP. the crank is cast, and overall you'd get maybe 10-15 miles outta a 500HP (RWHP) motor I'm thinking. maybe less

[jakdad]

And when you say 500 hp, you mean at the rear wheels or the flywheel ? I thought he was talking rear wheel HP.

[Zack]

either way our crappy connecting rods won't hold up to that HP. the crank is cast, and overall you'd get maybe 10-15 miles outta a 500HP (RWHP) motor I'm thinking. maybe less

My car has been making 575 flywheel horsepower for over a year now and is fine.
It gets over 15mpg and Im in it all the time.

[Mike Poore]

Sounds like a lot of HP for 281 cubic inches with only cam, chip and injector up grade. Guys with 500 HP and up Lightnings with the blown 330 incher have a lot of mods and dyno time.
Good luck
Y'know, I'm having a little trouble with the concept of 1.779 HP per cubic inch, in a normally aspirated engine on pump gas. Surely, the stock exhaust system would not handle the volume required to attain the RPM necessary to produce that amount of power, never mind the internal pieces parts standing up to that kind of power output, at the flywheel, or rear wheels.:D

[martyo]

I would be curious how you increase volumetric efficiency past 100% without some sort of power adder?

[blackf0rk]

I don't know if they're talking about flywheel or actual RW HP. I would assume they're talking about coming close to 500 RW HP

Wow, now this is why I posted this. I really wanted to see all of your reactions on this. All very good points. But it's been done, according to the talk - so maybe there's something we're missing.

Well, actually we ARE missing something.:rolleyes: Anyone have the missing peice?

I'm going to print this section out here, and have my mechanic friend have at it, and see what he says about it. Hopefully we'll come up with some awesome tunes outta this. :burnout:

[Smokie]

500 rwhp, naturally aspirated........unlikely, but I make it a habit to avoid phrases like can't be done or impossible. At this point our members have achieved a little over 300 rwhp wihout going inside the engine...even if the number you suggest was possible; it is not cost efficient, as far as getting there on tuning alone....the word impossible sure does cross my mind.....:D

[DEFYANT]

I suggest the design of the engine could do it; if the parts are fortified to handle the stress. Would probably be 25 - 30k engine though...

[cyclone03]

Well turning again to Seah Hyland's "4.6l Ford Engines"

PG 103 gives a short spec on a 550hp Cobra engine (5l).
pg117 shows a dyno chart of a 405hp 4.6l cobra engine.

The thing about HP is higher RPM the 550hp combo runs to 7500rpm.

1.7hp per liter is posible but to make it live takes a sound shortblock,just like a blower car.

Yes our supercharge members are laying down great numbers,but below 6200rpm.

For our N/A 500hp we need to run to 7000-8000.

Real world in the car we'd have 450 or so at the wheels.

[Agent M79]

Maybe it is 500 little bitty horses. Like a Shetland pony.

[KilledKenny]

All we need is a boss 290 engine from the cars ford make in Australia. 5.4 DOHC with close to 400hp n/a.
http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=2.171

I like how aussies they did there performance vehicle line. I like there Pursuit version.

[jakdad]

My car has been making 575 flywheel horsepower for over a year now and is fine.
It gets over 15mpg and Im in it all the time. That would put it a little under 500 at rear wheels. You woluld help all of us if you could get your car on a rear wheel dyno to see what it's doing. Of course we would also like to know what mods you're running:D . I never put mine on a machine shop dyno 'cause I'm too lazy to pull it out.
:o :o :o

[rayjay]

All we need is a boss 290 engine from the cars ford make in Australia. 5.4 DOHC with close to 400hp n/a.
http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=2.171

I like how aussies they did there performance vehicle line. I like there Pursuit version.
Anyone have any idea why Ford can not or will not, bring these to the U.S.? Can you say instant winner...

[jakdad]

Anyone have any idea why Ford can not or will not, bring these to the U.S.? Can you say instant winner... Yep, I've been corresponding with the Ausies over the last few years. They don't have the idiotic federal regulations that we do. They do have some awesome packages for sale to the general public. I believe Pontiac is bringing one of their Aussie cars for distribution here. Don't know the name they will put on it over here.

[Nathan]

Yep, I've been corresponding with the Ausies over the last few years. They don't have the idiotic federal regulations that we do. They do have some awesome packages for sale to the general public. I believe Pontiac is bringing one of their Aussie cars for distribution here. Don't know the name they will put on it over here.

Are you speaking of the new GTO?

[Krytin]

Ford Racing catalog lists a bored & stroked 4.6l w/all the good internals, variable length intake runners, modified heads/valves & cams that is "capable of over 400 hp naturally aspirated" @ the flywheel. They want over $14k but thats complete w/alternator & A/C etc.

[rayjay]

Are you speaking of the new GTO?
I believe the GTO is made by Holden, GM for down under.

[jgc61sr2002]

I believe the GTO is made by Holden, GM for down under.


That's correct.

[Joe Walsh]

Well turning again to Seah Hyland's "4.6l Ford Engines"

PG 103 gives a short spec on a 550hp Cobra engine (5l).
pg117 shows a dyno chart of a 405hp 4.6l cobra engine.

The thing about HP is higher RPM the 550hp combo runs to 7500rpm.

1.7hp per liter is posible but to make it live takes a sound shortblock,just like a blower car.

Yes our supercharge members are laying down great numbers,but below 6200rpm.

For our N/A 500hp we need to run to 7000-8000.

Real world in the car we'd have 450 or so at the wheels.

^^^^^YES^^^^

You could get 500 HP* out of a N/A 281 CID V8, But you would have to wind it up like a Honda!!! 7500+ RPM.

At those elevated RPM levels the stock cast crank and powdered metal rods would not last long.

A new set of aggressive cams would be essential to let the engine breathe/run at 7500+ RPM

Plus, this engine combination would be terrible in a HEAVY street driven Marauder. You would have to drive around at 5000 RPM all the time to stay in the power band....just like a Honda.

*HP = Torque x RPM / 5252
A N/A 281 CID V8 does not make a lot of torque....So you need big RPM to make big HP

[BillyGman]

To get the level of HP that's being discussed here out of a 281 cubic inch engine w/out any means of forced induction ( S/Cer, NO2, Turbo) would require some really hairy camshafts. And the problem with that for a street driven car is that along with the mega power increases, the power also gets moved up higher in the RPM band. Therefore a heavy vehicle like the Marauder, which is already sluggish off the line because of a lack of cubic inches under the hood, will remain slow off the line unless you run a stall speed that would be way too high for the street such as 4500 RPM's or more. A stall speed like that would kill the driveability of a street car. Especially one that's driven in traffic and/or daily.


This is where forced induction shines. It will increase the power output of a small engine w/out moving the available power further up the RPM scale. It will broaden the powerband and make a small V8 engine perform like a big block V8 with available power in a wider RPM range (which is what small V8's and 6's and 4's lack). My point is that even if you're able to get the same amount of PEAK HP out of a Marauder engine from upgrading to bigger camshafts and a bigger intake, as you would from S/Cing, or from Nitrous Oxide, the car still will NOT be as fast nor as enjoyable to drive on the STREET because you would still have a delivery of power in a narrow RPM range unlike the power delivery of the forced induction engine.

It has been said that "there's no replacement for displacement"....and if there was ever an exception to that rule, then the one exception is definately forced induction. Bigger cams and intake will just not deliver the same gains. If you were to compare dyno charts and quartermile ET results, you would find this to be true. I found these things out the hard way by building my Vette engine more than once, and experimenting with differernt parts in addition to my experimentations with my Marauder.

[GA-Marauder]

It has been said that "there's no replacement for displacement"....and if there was ever an exception to that rule, then the one exception is definately forced induction.

^^^That's the truth. I know rice burners are not exactly praised here, but if you look at the small displacement a Subaru WRX has versus its HP, even at relatively low rpm, because of turbocharging, it really moves out. My son has a 2001 WRX, which I drive every once in a while, and, well, its a gas. Forced induction for smaller displacement engines, IMO, is a must for high gains in HP at useful rpms.

[hitchhiker]

All we need is a boss 290 engine from the cars ford make in Australia. 5.4 DOHC with close to 400hp n/a.
http://www.fpv.com.au/index.asp?link_id=2.171

I like how aussies they did there performance vehicle line. I like there Pursuit version.

WHY NOT HERE!

:mad2:

[BillyGman]

WHY NOT HERE!

:mad2:because we are one of the few nations that have very strict emissions laws/standards. that's one of the reasons why I think the whole emissions/EPA thing is a crock, and it just exists to make $$ in some way or another. Why else would there be stricter emissions standards for cars than there are for pick-up trucks all within the same country?

[Constable]

I think this thread may be headed in a different route than was originally intended, but it's none-the-less interesting.

I completely agree with the "de-tuned" phrase that was used in the beginning of this thread. This motor's roots are in Indy style racing... high rpm screamers. Obviously the engine's internals have to be beefed up and tons of port work, etc... but 500hp (flywheel most likely) is not out of the question.

Like Billy said, it wouldn't work in a Marauder... but a stripped down race-only Stang would benefit greatly.

[MENINBLK]

As blackf0rk and Constable have put it, our engines are mainly detuned engines,
and they are detuned so that they can run on the street for the average Joe,
without imploding themselves,
and so that the average Joe doesn't have a heart attack every time he pulls up to a pump and fills the gas tank...

If you look back into a little of Ford's history, I can think of some examples
of detuned engines other than our Modular V8...

There is the Yamaha V8 that was used in the SHO Taurus,
The Duratech V6 used in the Contour, Taurus, and the Escape,
The Zetec used in the Escort and the Focus...etc.

Most of the detuning dates back to the mid 70's, when emissions took on the gasoline engine.
With the advent of COMPUTERS, Emissions have been easier to implement, with minimal effects on a detuned engine.

An engine can be tuned to just about any spec or performance today, but with Emissions involved,
the engine has to perform within the window that is regulated for the vehicle class/size.
If it can't meet the perfomance set by the emissions regulations, then it is labelled as a gas guzzler, and we pay the extra $$$ for it.

[Dennis Reinhart]

Well turning again to Seah Hyland's "4.6l Ford Engines"

PG 103 gives a short spec on a 550hp Cobra engine (5l).
pg117 shows a dyno chart of a 405hp 4.6l cobra engine.



Real world in the car we'd have 450 or so at the wheels.
405 RWHP in a Cobra would be about 325 on a Marauder minus the 20% transmisson loss we have members now close to that

[JohnE]

I was talking to my mechanic friend who has been working Mustangs for quite some time. He has one himself; not sure on the exact specs of his, but I know it's not the same engine we have. However, he reads up on our motors 'cause he's a ford engine nut - you know. Anyways...

He was telling me of many people who have tuned their engines (the ones we have) to output 500HP without aspiration devices. He said our engines are actually detuned. In fact, when he was in school, his teacher mirrored his knowledge about this tip as well. Basically a proper chip tune, different intake, injectors, and cams will get you to 500HP with this engine.


Do you always believe what people tell you? I doubt you asked this guy to back up what he was talking about with facts. So many people grossly over exaggerate hp numbers, especially once the story reaches the friend of a friend point. The stock Marauder engine has powered metal rods, cast crank, etc. which are not suited for 8,000rpm and neither is the 11.25” torque converter nor 4R70W. Yes you can get 500RWHP in NA form, but this is much more than a few bolt-ons.

The people with power adders putting them into the 500 crank hp area have enjoyable and streetable rides. These cars are heavy and need the powerband to occur down low.

[jakdad]

Do you always believe what people tell you? I doubt you asked this guy to back up what he was talking about with facts. So many people grossly over exaggerate hp numbers, especially once the story reaches the friend of a friend point. The stock Marauder engine has powered metal rods, cast crank, etc. which are not suited for 8,000rpm and neither is the 11.25” torque converter nor 4R70W. Yes you can get 500RWHP in NA form, but this is much more than a few bolt-ons.

The people with power adders putting them into the 500 crank hp area have enjoyable and streetable rides. These cars are heavy and need the powerband to occur down low. You are dead on about people estimating HP! I've heard more than one say "This cam is worth 40 HP and this intake is worth 25 HP or these mufflers are worth 15 HP and these headers are worth 20 HP. Look here, we just added up 100 HP! Take it to the bank! And they wonder why some guy with a few mods and a good tune blows their doors off.:D :D :D

[Mike Poore]

Anyone have any idea why Ford can not or will not, bring these to the U.S.? Can you say instant winner...That's easy! The dopes put the steering wheel on the wrong side.;)

[jakdad]

That's easy! The dopes put the steering wheel on the wrong side.;) I'd take it that way!
:D :D

[FastMerc]

Im thinking wrecked cobra from junkyard and transplant the motor with the good stuff,thats the cheap way to do it since Ford put low standard parts in what was supposed to be a big muscle car:bs: thats what I say.:D

[ckadiddle]

Maybe it is 500 little bitty horses. Like a Shetland pony.
If they were really small, would they be Shetland Punies ? :laugh:

[cyclone03]

405 RWHP in a Cobra would be about 325 on a Marauder minus the 20% transmisson loss we have members now close to that

I agree Dennis,my point was 500N/A HP is posible,but no dought it would be a high(er) strung beast.

And all that power higher in the RPM range with our 4400lb cars would need some gear to be fun in the day to day real world.

Thats why superchargers work so well.

[Dennis Reinhart]

500 RWHP N/A is 600 to the flywheel this would cost big bucks chevy has a big block making some thing close to this, the cost of the motor alone is over 15K.

You could do a big bore with very expensive head work and speacial cams but again I am not sure where the numbers would end up.

Its a great idea but it would be very expensive to do.

[Joe Walsh]

500 RWHP N/A is 600 to the flywheel this would cost big bucks chevy has a big block making some thing close to this, the cost of the motor alone is over 15K.

You could do a big bore with very expensive head work and speacial cams but again I am not sure where the numbers would end up.
Its a great idea but it would be very expensive to do.

I've got the 'big bore', port work, cams*, oversize SS valves, and extrude honed intake.....BUT.... I DO NOT expect 500hp (crank or rearwheel).

I could add TYPE 'R' stickers plus a 747 wing on the trunk and that might put me over 500HP...

I DO expect a VERY, VERY FAST N/A Marauder. :D

*NOT high rpm cams>>>>torque-midrange cams