Supercharging Information

[maraudernkc]

Below is a link on some basic supercharging Information. This will talk about air to air vs. air to water etc.

This was put together by ATI (Procharger)

http://www.procharger.com/pdf/intercooling.pdf

[tmac1337]

Below is a link on some basic supercharging Information. This will talk about air to air vs. air to water etc.

This was put together by ATI (Procharger)

http://www.procharger.com/pdf/intercooling.pdf

After now driving my Procharger Marauder for over 2 months I know Air to Air intercooling is the real deal!

Excellent information!

[MENINBLK]

Below is a link on some basic supercharging Information. This will talk about air to air vs. air to water etc.

This was put together by ATI (Procharger)

http://www.procharger.com/pdf/intercooling.pdf


I don't understand this.
Is this document talking about Supercharging or Intercooling ?
At first it looks like ProCharger says they are *better* than others ?
Then it seems that they claim that they are the ONLY ones with an Air-to-Air intercooler ???
:dunno: :confused:

[tmac1337]

I don't understand this.
Is this document talking about Supercharging or Intercooling ?
At first it looks like ProCharger says they are *better* than others ?
Then it seems that they claim that they are the ONLY ones with an Air-to-Air intercooler ???
:dunno: :confused:

It is talking about the use of an air to air intercooler vs. an air to water when supercharging.

I do not see where they say Procharger has the only intercooler? Where did you read that?

I know that Procharger only makes offset/offset entrance and exit intercoolers so that the air is forced to flow through all the ribbing vs. off market brand coolers that have same side entrance/exit which results in a blow through straight across without utilizing all the cell rows.

[AzMarauder]

Below is a link on some basic supercharging Information. This will talk about air to air vs. air to water etc.

This was put together by ATI (Procharger)

http://www.procharger.com/pdf/intercooling.pdf

Is the air to air system better than air to water system in all cases?

Seems to me in a discussion I had with DR he favored the air to water (thus the reason he offered the air to water first). He seemed to see the air to air arrangement (which is what he is now developing) as an acceptable "cost" driven option opposed to the more expensive air to water.

So for discussion sake... if air to water is better... under what circumstances is that so?

[tmac1337]

Is the air to air system better than air to water system in all cases?

Seems to me in a discussion I had with DR he favored the air to water (thus the reason he offered the air to water first). He seemed to see the air to air arrangement (which is what he is now developing) as an acceptable "cost" driven option opposed to the more expensive air to water.

So for discussion sake... if air to water is better... under what circumstances is that so?

I'll I can say is that I have indepentently tested my Procharger AIT several times with a pyrometer. Heat has not been a factor under any circumstance even with outside temps at 95 degrees with humidity.

If anyone in FL would like their air to water AIT tested with a pyrometer I will be more than happy to let them borrow it to independently verify temps on the above stated air to water kit. Diablo now offers an excellent tune to go with the air to air running 14 degrees of timing. If heat were an issue common sense dictates that the timing would have to be much less. Both Procharger cars did not detonate running 16 degrees of timing with a Diablo tune, but were pulled back to 14 just to be safe.


If I were you instead of listening to sales pitches I would arrange to drive all 3 different kits and make up your own mind. Anyone interested in travelling to FL would be able to drive 2 Prochargers and at least one Trilogy. A DR kit would be a little harder to arrange as I know of noone around here who has one unless you go directly to DR's shop.

[BillyGman]

hmmm, I don't know what "sales pitches" you keep talking about, but my guess about the air-to-air system (and this is ONLY a guess on my part) is that it might very well work better for a centrifugal supercharger set-up than it would for a roots supercharger set-up that's running atleast 9 PSI of boost, since roots superchargers have more of a potential to develop heat.


So I'm guessing that with most cars that have V8 engines under the hood, a water-to-air intercooler system would be better for a roots supercharger set-up than an air-to-air intercooler would be, but with a centrifugal supercharger, it probably isn't as critical, so the air-to-air is probably fine as long as the tune is good like you've stated. I've never heard of there being any heat related problems with any Trilogy equipped Marauders, and mine doesn't have any either, but we do have the air-to-water intercooler systems.

[tmac1337]

hmmm, I don't know what "sales pitches" you keep talking about, but my guess about the air-to-air system (and this is ONLY a guess on my part) is that it might very well work better for a centrifugal supercharger set-up than it would for a roots supercharger set-up that's running atleast 9 PSI of boost, since roots superchargers have more of a potential to develop heat.


So I'm guessing that with most cars that have V8 engines under the hood, a water-to-air intercooler system would be better for a roots supercharger set-up than an air-to-air intercooler would be, but with a centrifugal supercharger, it probably isn't as critical, so the air-to-air is probably fine as long as the tune is good like you've stated. I've never heard of there being any heat related problems with any Trilogy equipped Marauders, and mine doesn't have any either, but we do have the air-to-water intercooler systems.

I agree with you 100% Billy. You raise some good points.

If I were a car manufacturer and I wanted to charge a production car, the obvious choice would be a roots blower that looks OEM. And the Trilogy looks excellent! The average joe would not even know what he is looking at if he looked under a Trilogy Marauder hood. Lift up my hood, and especially with all the chrome bling, any person knows something is up.

Roots blowers require air to water intercooling. As far as I know the cooler on the Trilogy is located down underneath the blower, after air has been propelled down, which is also located on top of the engine. Am I correct?

I also have not heard of any Trilogy car overheating. The heat issue does effect timing however. I have heard that the Trilogy base tune that comes with the kit has 11 degrees of timing, is that correct? Do you have any idea how much timing a Trilogy equipped car can run with a custom tune?

[stevengerard]

Interesting, I don't know enough about this but it is thought provoking. I wonder if there would be a difference on the dyno with a Vortec if you wnet from air-to-air and then did some more pulls with a air - water

[tmac1337]

Interesting, I don't know enough about this but it is thought provoking. I wonder if there would be a difference on the dyno with a Vortec if you wnet from air-to-air and then did some more pulls with a air - water

If DR is successful with the kit he is attempting to build, and with a good tune, that data should be forthcoming as he would have built both options.

Procharger has already been successful not just with the Marauders now, but has sold thousands of other application kits for mustangs and such with intercoolers.

[stevengerard]

If DR is successful with the kit he is attempting to build, and with a good tune, that data should be forthcoming as he would have built both options.

I'd be willing to try it with my car.

[tmac1337]

I'd be willing to try it with my car.

Sounds like your car is running just fine.....no reason to mess around. I am going to call Diablo and ask for a dealer referral, independent from this site, who has tuned both air/water and air/water blower kits and ask some questions about the differences in tuning for each application.

[BillyGman]

I agree with you 100% Billy. You raise some good points.

If I were a car manufacturer and I wanted to charge a production car, the obvious choice would be a roots blower that looks OEM. And the Trilogy looks excellent! The average joe would not even know what he is looking at if he looked under a Trilogy Marauder hood. Lift up my hood, and especially with all the chrome bling, any person knows something is up.

Roots blowers require air to water intercooling. As far as I know the cooler on the Trilogy is located down underneath the blower, after air has been propelled down, which is also located on top of the engine. Am I correct? Yes, that's correct, but it's only part of the story. The intercooler is underneath the supercharger on both roots and twin Screw superchargers. The intercooler itself sits inside the special intake manifold that any complete roots or twinscrew supercharger kit comes with, and is actually bolted right to the underside of the supercharger. But in addition to that, there is the heat exchanger, which is basically a miniature radiator which is mounted right behind the grill, and sits in front of the engine radiator. It has it's own sepatate coolant reservior, and electric water pump.

I also have not heard of any Trilogy car overheating. The heat issue does effect timing however. I have heard that the Trilogy base tune that comes with the kit has 11 degrees of timing, is that correct?NOPE. Do you have any idea how much timing a Trilogy equipped car can run with a custom tune?Yes I do. Greg (aka "Maraudernkc") was asking me that too. But I'm not an engine tuner, and it was an engine tuner who told me about this. The one who burns the chips for Trilogy. So you might want to talk to him about that.

[tmac1337]

Yes I do. Greg (aka "Maraudernkc") was asking me that too. But I'm not an engine tuner, and it was an engine tuner who told me about this. The one who burns the chips for Trilogy. So you might want to talk to him about that.

It's okay if you do not want to discuss what the timing is on a custom tuned Trilogy. And I was told from an excellent source about the stock tune being 11 degrees, but I guess it is a secret. After spending money on my car and getting interested in the tuning portion, what degree of timing I was running in my tune was an important piece of information I asked specifically about. With that reasoning I would suspect that other people would want to know also no matter which kit they purchased. Perhaps Lidio coud say sometime, although I do not know why it would be a secret. A custom tuned Trilogy should be able to up the timing at least 1 or 2 degrees......

[BillyGman]

LOL....nice try T-MAC......I'm not going to add anything more to this thread by addressing your comments, because this is Greg's thread. He started this thread, and he's a vendor. BTW, I found out what my tuning setting were from the tuner who burns all the Trilogy chips that comes with their kits. So you should just ask the person who burned your chip, or whoever tuned your car. That should remove the mystery for you. Carry on.

[tmac1337]

LOL....nice try T-MAC......I'm not going to add anything more to this thread by addressing your comments, because this is Greg's thread. He started this thread, and he's a vendor.

I don't know what the big secret is?

I have 14 degrees of timing in my tune, could have had 16 but pulled it back to be safe. NO secret!

You usually have no problem answering questions at other times which frankly leads me to conclude you were told not to tell for some reason.......

Not answering the questions will only lead to more, and I for one am now curious.

Not trying to piss you off, but I do not play like that!

[maraudernkc]

AzMarauder, Air to Air is not always the best way to go. For the street on a Centrifical Blower, Procharger feels that air to air is the best way to go.

Procharger makes air to water Intercoolers and uses them in marine applications where they use the lake or ocean as a radiator and the boat already has a pump.

The best application for a centrifical air to water is drag racing. Why because you can chill the water and ice down the motor between runs. This will get the AIT below Ambient (outside tempature) and will allow you to run more timing which in will increase your horsepower.

If Procharger thought that air to water on a centrifical was the best application for the street than that's what they would use but they use air to air.

You can go to my website that is still under construction and there is more information at:

www.superchargemyride.com




Is the air to air system better than air to water system in all cases?

Seems to me in a discussion I had with DR he favored the air to water (thus the reason he offered the air to water first). He seemed to see the air to air arrangement (which is what he is now developing) as an acceptable "cost" driven option opposed to the more expensive air to water.

So for discussion sake... if air to water is better... under what circumstances is that so?

[MM03MOK]

Don't even get me started on "not answering the question." Taunting Members for information will only put you in the Dog House. How about going to the source for the answer as suggested, TMAC.

I"d say you've all had your turn in trying to playing "King of the Hill," and I, for one, am sick of it. Your antagonism and animosity towards one another is a detriment to the products sold by vendors here and to the Board.

You wonder why there's a silent majority here. How about a little respect. Until there is mutual respect, supercharger threads will continue to live short lives, which short-change us all. Anyone want a vacation? Just say so.

[TAF]

Anyone want a vacation? Just say so.
I need a vacation...a long one please. How 'bout the beach?

http://www.nfh.cwc.net/bikini/bikini99.jpg

[maraudernkc]

TAF, I am with you. Where are we going? We can debate which bikini is best!


I need a vacation...a long one please. How 'bout the beach?

http://www.nfh.cwc.net/bikini/bikini99.jpg

[TooManyFords]

http://www.nfh.cwc.net/bikini/bikini99.jpgCan you line one of these up for me? I'm partial to the RED one!

[martyo]

We can debate which bikini is best!

Okay, here goes. I personally thnk anyone of those bikinis would look best........piled up on the floor in the corner of my room. :D

[duhtroll]

Yay - I love these threads.

:popcorn:

More babe pics, please.

-A

[martyo]

Yay - I love these threads.

:popcorn:

More babe pics, please.

-A

While I am here staying in the ATL, I will see if I can hack into Todd's "private collection". I would post from Donny's private collection, which I have limited access to, but that would get this whole site shut down!!! :D

[AzMarauder]

I'll I can say is that I have indepentently tested my Procharger AIT several times with a pyrometer. Heat has not been a factor under any circumstance even with outside temps at 95 degrees with humidity.

If anyone in FL would like their air to water AIT tested with a pyrometer I will be more than happy to let them borrow it to independently verify temps on the above stated air to water kit. Diablo now offers an excellent tune to go with the air to air running 14 degrees of timing. If heat were an issue common sense dictates that the timing would have to be much less. Both Procharger cars did not detonate running 16 degrees of timing with a Diablo tune, but were pulled back to 14 just to be safe.


If I were you instead of listening to sales pitches I would arrange to drive all 3 different kits and make up your own mind. Anyone interested in travelling to FL would be able to drive 2 Prochargers and at least one Trilogy. A DR kit would be a little harder to arrange as I know of noone around here who has one unless you go directly to DR's shop.
It is my plan to attend the MVIII and beg, borrow, or steal a ride in something of each. Look, prod, talk etc. and make my decision at that time what type of kit I would like to use.

Thanks for the input.

[AzMarauder]

hmmm, I don't know what "sales pitches" you keep talking about, but my guess about the air-to-air system (and this is ONLY a guess on my part) is that it might very well work better for a centrifugal supercharger set-up than it would for a roots supercharger set-up that's running atleast 9 PSI of boost, since roots superchargers have more of a potential to develop heat.


So I'm guessing that with most cars that have V8 engines under the hood, a water-to-air intercooler system would be better for a roots supercharger set-up than an air-to-air intercooler would be, but with a centrifugal supercharger, it probably isn't as critical, so the air-to-air is probably fine as long as the tune is good like you've stated. I've never heard of there being any heat related problems with any Trilogy equipped Marauders, and mine doesn't have any either, but we do have the air-to-water intercooler systems.
Billy,

Is water a better heat sink than air? What properties in water make it able to absorb heat better ... transfer it... then release it...? (Air to Water)

Seems it does add a step in the process.

Of course for the roots... it would be very complicated to do an air to air... and defeat the very advantage of the roots which is the quick response and low end grunt. If you have to run the intake charge out of the compressor... thru the intercooler... you add a distance to the run etc.

I have experience driving air to air as my turbo cars are setup that way. My Cobra OTOH was the roots style air to water.

[AzMarauder]

I agree with you 100% Billy. You raise some good points.

If I were a car manufacturer and I wanted to charge a production car, the obvious choice would be a roots blower that looks OEM. And the Trilogy looks excellent! The average joe would not even know what he is looking at if he looked under a Trilogy Marauder hood. Lift up my hood, and especially with all the chrome bling, any person knows something is up.

Roots blowers require air to water intercooling. As far as I know the cooler on the Trilogy is located down underneath the blower, after air has been propelled down, which is also located on top of the engine. Am I correct?

I also have not heard of any Trilogy car overheating. The heat issue does effect timing however. I have heard that the Trilogy base tune that comes with the kit has 11 degrees of timing, is that correct? Do you have any idea how much timing a Trilogy equipped car can run with a custom tune?
You are correct.... the intercooler is located under the Triology Blower within the intake manifold. The intake charge is blown THRU the outside of a heater core looking intercooler which has coolant circulating thru the inside. The coolant is pumped thru the system and comes out to a heat exchanger located somewhere at the front of the car. The Mustang Cobra puts the heat exchanger in front of the radiator in the opening in the front bumper.

[AzMarauder]

Sounds like your car is running just fine.....no reason to mess around. I am going to call Diablo and ask for a dealer referral, independent from this site, who has tuned both air/water and air/water blower kits and ask some questions about the differences in tuning for each application.
Well vortech might be a good place to start. They offer both a water to air and air to air intercooler system for their centrifugals. There has to be a reason they offer both.... whether it is something done for space limitations... or to increase performance in certains ranges etc.

[AzMarauder]

TAF, I am with you. Where are we going? We can debate which bikini is best!
Well we have a problem.... these girls are keeping too much of there "tuning specs" out of view !:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[maraudernkc]

They all look goog to me and Lake season is just around the corner. I will be seeing alot of Bikini's and maybe some girls missing part of theres down at Party Cove at LAke Of The Ozarks.

You can take my car for a spin at Marauderville. I plan on attending.


Well we have a problem.... these girls are keeping too much of there "tuning specs" out of view !:rofl: :rofl: :rofl:

[MERCMAN]

Don't even get me started on "not answering the question." Taunting Members for information will only put you in the Dog House. How about going to the source for the answer as suggested, TMAC.

I"d say you've all had your turn in trying to playing "King of the Hill," and I, for one, am sick of it. Your antagonism and animosity towards one another is a detriment to the products sold by vendors here and to the Board.

You wonder why there's a silent majority here. How about a little respect. Until there is mutual respect, supercharger threads will continue to live short lives, which short-change us all. Anyone want a vacation? Just say so.
Gee,, whats a S/C thread without having someone take a vacation?? So as not to disappoint anyone, Tmac,, enjoy the beach!!!

[stevengerard]

It is my plan to attend the MVIII and beg, borrow, or steal a ride in something of each. Look, prod, talk etc. and make my decision at that time what type of kit I would like to use.

Thanks for the input.

You can beat run mine anytime you want!

[maraudernkc]

Guys, please watch what you say. I don't want to see anyone and I mean anyone take a vacation from this site.

These S/C threads get the best of us sometime but just be respectful to one another.

Just remember we are all on this site for the same reason.

We all love our Marauder's and we all come here to Mercuray Marauder.net to buy and sell parts and we come here to tell our stories and share our mods that we have done to our Marauder's.

As we all know sometimes we debate the mods that we as Individual have and that's ok but everyone on this site deserves to be treated with respect.

Thanks, Greg (Maraudernkc)

[MarauderMark]

I think now whenever we see a s/ced thread we read it and keep up with it just to see who's next.I subscribed to this thread before i wrote anything.These threads are allways interesting cause ya allways wanna see what or whos next..:lol:

[WhoMe]

So let's meet at a track somewhere and have a shootout :) I think we can find one or two of each blower type in Fla :)

Dennis is holding an event at Gainsville pretty soon, I think.

[Todd]

By pyrometer you mean the laser temperature probe thingy....???? (my technical term...! ;)


IF that is what you mean that is not a fair or accurate way to test the intake charge temperature unless you are simply testing for fluctutations in temperature and not the actual temp.

If I were you (and assuming you dont already have it) I would get a bung welded into the intercooler and use an actual temp guage. The aluminum will obviously transmit most of the temp to the external surface (where you aim the pyrometer) but not all.

I like air to air and will be using one on my turbo setup. I will be getting bungs welded in and capped off with cap screws just for my future use....

Air/Water will get heat soaked and will take longer to bring the temps back down however the little bonzai runs I will do on the street and the once in a blue moon trip to the track will not make a difference either way. But air/air is what comes with my kit and I see no need to change it.




I'll I can say is that I have indepentently tested my Procharger AIT several times with a pyrometer. Heat has not been a factor under any circumstance even with outside temps at 95 degrees with humidity.

If anyone in FL would like their air to water AIT tested with a pyrometer I will be more than happy to let them borrow it to independently verify temps on the above stated air to water kit. Diablo now offers an excellent tune to go with the air to air running 14 degrees of timing. If heat were an issue common sense dictates that the timing would have to be much less. Both Procharger cars did not detonate running 16 degrees of timing with a Diablo tune, but were pulled back to 14 just to be safe.


If I were you instead of listening to sales pitches I would arrange to drive all 3 different kits and make up your own mind. Anyone interested in travelling to FL would be able to drive 2 Prochargers and at least one Trilogy. A DR kit would be a little harder to arrange as I know of noone around here who has one unless you go directly to DR's shop.

[SergntMac]

I think reading the IAT live from the OBDII port is your best option. It's taken from inside the engine, at the last possible point where the air charge can be measured. This is the temperature reading the EEC will use to adjust spark/fuel/timing.

[TechHeavy]

TAF, I am with you. Where are we going? We can debate which bikini is best!
The heck with that! I want to know which girl is fastest! And not after getting her RPMs up with wining and dining and movies and talking about her feelings... Right now! I think the one in the yellow may have the best "roots". :D

[Dennis Reinhart]

First of all let me say this, we have a great site . What I do not understand is why do we have these pissing contests over who has the best supercharger kit . I have said all along every kit sold on this site is great ! They all have proved to produce great power and reliability.



I am sold on a water to air setup . Why ? Because I have PROVED WITH DATA that our Marauders at WOT , with an outside air temp of 85 degrees , have an IAT ( Inlet Air Temperature ) at WOT and at 6000 RPM of about 12 degrees over outside air. When I made my first kit on Keith's car I used the Marauders OAT sensor in the inlet pipe and you could read IAT from the A/C control panel.

I posted this information over and over, so does that mean I have the best kit. No , that's for my customers to decide. So for any one to say that an air to air is far more efficient without data to me is misleading . Where are the dyno sheets and where is the IAT information ? I am doing an air to air kit now. I am having IAT sensors mounted on the inlet and outlet of the heat exchanger . I will map and graph this on the dyno sheet that I will post here, and if the heat exchanger does not meet my expectations and inlet air temperature specifications I will not use it.

I have an air to air on my Mark 8 it makes 530 RWHP , runs almost 10's and I know what the IAT is because I have mapped it over and over on the dyno with a huge fan in front of it, and after three passes the IAT is about 125+ . Its much higher in trafic on Florida roads . If this was a water to air it would be much lower.

If you drive your car on the highway at 65 MPH you have a huge amount of air moving across the air to air core and yes it will be very efficient . Come to a dead stop in traffic and on a Florida 100 degree day at 80% humidity when the asphalt temperature is 150 degrees !!! You can pull that heat right off the road and it kills the air to air cooler at lower speeds . This is dependent upon the heat exchanger design and placement.

Now I do not care who's SC kit you have . Some have plusses , some have minuses , but none of them are the best as compared to others . Its the drivers preferenceas to who's kit they buy. It's just a shame that it seems like we go through this every month, to me we have much better things to do.

[Doobie1]

Man You Guys Are Rich Or In Debt!!!!!!!

[maraudernkc]

Todd, the Pyrometer that "VacationTmac" is talking about is a black box that has 3 special wire leads off of it and has a A,B and C switch so that you can put these wire leads into the places that you want to measure tempature like berore and after the Intercooler. You run it at fulls boost to get your highest heat reading and you switch back and for to get your reading. You car's computer will measure you IAT but we found it to read higher than the actual temp. but that is what the computer in your car will see.


By pyrometer you mean the laser temperature probe thingy....???? (my technical term...! ;)


IF that is what you mean that is not a fair or accurate way to test the intake charge temperature unless you are simply testing for fluctutations in temperature and not the actual temp.

If I were you (and assuming you dont already have it) I would get a bung welded into the intercooler and use an actual temp guage. The aluminum will obviously transmit most of the temp to the external surface (where you aim the pyrometer) but not all.

I like air to air and will be using one on my turbo setup. I will be getting bungs welded in and capped off with cap screws just for my future use....

Air/Water will get heat soaked and will take longer to bring the temps back down however the little bonzai runs I will do on the street and the once in a blue moon trip to the track will not make a difference either way. But air/air is what comes with my kit and I see no need to change it.

[Logan]

Tick Tock Tick Tock...

[TooManyFords]

Is it Daylight Savings already??

Where does the time go?

:)

[MI2QWK4U]

I just wanted to say i have absolutely no comment on this thread, but to invite you all to MVIII at the Woodward Dream Cruise. Can we count on your support and buy a raffle ticket?
Thanks....

[stevengerard]

If I blow on my air to water cooler does that make it a blown intercooled air to blown water super charger?

I do think there is some merit to this. I know water is a very effective heat exchanger yet it may also get heat soaked. I don't know enough about the thermodynamics but seeing that both Procharger and Vortec sells both kits they propobly have their uses.

I wonder how hard the engineers laugh when reading some of these threads

[MERCDADDY]

If I blow on my air to water cooler does that make it a blown intercooled air to blown water super charger?

I don't know, but.... Is a fortune telling midget that just escaped from prison considered a small medium at large? :banana:

[King Fubar]

Man You Guys Are Rich Or In Debt!!!!!!!

In debt here...:depress:

But it's damn worth it...:burnout: :burn: :hotrice:

[MikesMerc]

I just wanted to say i have absolutely no comment on this thread, but to invite you all to MVIII at the Woodward Dream Cruise. Can we count on your support and buy a raffle ticket?
Thanks....

I also have no comment:)

But the MVIII event and raffle support is worth mentioning again :banana:

[jstevens]

I just bought my ticket and can't wait to be one of the select supercharged MM's lurking around town.

[Jerry Barnes]

Well Guys and Gals,

I will cast my vote. We did extensive research on the "air-to-air", "air-to-water", Turbo and "no air-at-all" approaches to supercharging. If you go to our web site www.trilogymotorsports.com, there is a series of articles that examines many of these topics. Please feel free to look at some good research on this subject. I will also have one of our engineers pull out our analysis of the various approoches and post it next week. A lot of this data was conducted by Ford in their analysis of supercharger applications and the best way to implement them.

But, unfortunately I agree with Dennis. In our research and our opinion, "air-to-water" is the best for the engine temperatures, the engine life and performance in warmer conditions. That said, I feel that a Eaton or a Vortech or a Procharger will operate better with a "air-to-water" intercooler. It's a lot more complicated to design, engineer and manufacture, but the data shows it is worth it.

Now I am not trying to pick a fight, but just express my opinion in a civilized manner. There is a lot of research data that supports the "air-to-water" approach. We, at Trilogy, will NEVER produce an "air-to-air" or "no air-at-all" product. Not to say that "air-to-air" approach is bad, its just not the optimal for warmer conditions like all you folks in the south and west experience.

Will this response get me banded from the site Mr. Logan, Sir? Oh, by the way Mr. Logan, I will be by to cut your grass tomorrow about noon, is that O.K.?

And I really like the girls, I mean young ladies. For those that know me, they know I like warm buns. And a cup of coffee of course!

Well, that's all I have to say, so half of you are now pissed off and the other half still like me.

Have a great evening for those that still like me!

Jerry

[Logan]

First damned reasonable thing said this month on this site. :up:

[ghostship55]

Any one know if supercharging adversely affects the (idiotic) state emmissions tests that we have to go through? Here in Maryland they are tough.:confused:

[Dennis Reinhart]

First damned reasonable thing said this month on this site. :up:

how about :beer: :beer: :beer: :beer:

['03BlkMM]

Air/Water will get heat soaked and will take longer to bring the temps back down however the little bonzai runs I will do on the street and the once in a blue moon trip to the track will not make a difference either way. But air/air is what comes with my kit and I see no need to change it.

Get a bigger heat exchanger and it won't heat soak, hell if you can put one big enough in there the water temp would never rise. Of course you might need something off of a Kenworth to do that! :)

[Logan]

Get a bigger heat exchanger and it won't heat soak, hell if you can put one big enough in there the water temp would never rise. Of course you might need something off of a Kenworth to do that! :)
See what I was planning on doing was taking a page out of the lightning book and using THIS (http://www.johnnylightningperf.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1 7)...

Basically a modified fuel cell with about 18 ft of copper tubing coiled inside it. Dump ice in at the track, behold the extra 20hp/20ft lbs...

[stevengerard]

I agree with Dennis.

Wow, this is cool, a moment of silence please, two of my favorite people on this site and they agree on something and both have experience to back it up. Amen!

['03BlkMM]

See what I was planning on doing was taking a page out of the lightning book and using THIS (http://www.johnnylightningperf.com/shop/product_info.php?products_id=1 7)...

Basically a modified fuel cell with about 18 ft of copper tubing coiled inside it. Dump ice in at the track, behold the extra 20hp/20ft lbs...
Damn they don't say how big that thing is, but they do say its supposed to be mounted in the bed of the truck so it must be BIG. Hell, I'd just pick up a nice ice chest and wrap my own copper line to fit in the ice chest. Throw it in the trunk run some poly tubing to it, fill with ice and water and have fun! The cool thing would be to have a valve to switch over and only run the chilled water when you really wanted it. Then switch back over to a radiator cooled system for normal driving. Kind of like having a nitrous bottle, open the valve and hit it...

[Agent M79]

Oh, by the way Mr. Logan, I will be by to cut your grass tomorrow about noon, is that O.K.?
First damned reasonable thing said this month on this site. :up:..........

[bigslim]

First damned reasonable thing said this month on this site. :up:
What, that Jerry said he will be by to cut your grass? By the way, don't forget to buy your raffle tickets.

[AzMarauder]

First damned reasonable thing said this month on this site. :up:
Which part... about the supercharging or the ladies, hot buns and coffee?

[dwasson]

Any one know if supercharging adversely affects the (idiotic) state emmissions tests that we have to go through? Here in Maryland they are tough.:confused:

Supercharging will raise the amount of emissions from an engine. If it means that you can not pass an emission test depends on how close to the limit you were before. The raw amount of emissions depends on how much fuel goes through the engine and how efficiently it is burned. So pushing more air through the engine with the supercharger inherently brings more fuel with it (to maintain the stoichiometric ratio). This means that more fuel goes through the engine per mile.

One extension of this is seen in how the US EPA calculates fuel economy. When the car is going through the EPA emissions test the exhaust is run into a large (very large) clear plastic bag. After the test, the bag is weighted and the amount of fuel burned is calculated from that weight. Only a bureaucrat would think like that.

['03BlkMM]

Supercharging will raise the amount of emissions from an engine. If it means that you can not pass an emission test depends on how close to the limit you were before. The raw amount of emissions depends on how much fuel goes through the engine and how efficiently it is burned. So pushing more air through the engine with the supercharger inherently brings more fuel with it (to maintain the stoichiometric ratio). This means that more fuel goes through the engine per mile.

One extension of this is seen in how the US EPA calculates fuel economy. When the car is going through the EPA emissions test the exhaust is run into a large (very large) clear plastic bag. After the test, the bag is weighted and the amount of fuel burned is calculated from that weight. Only a bureaucrat would think like that.
I disagree, when it comes to the emissions test there should be zero difference between stock and supercharged. The car is not run at WOT at any point during the emissions test. At a steady state cruise speed or idle the engine is still operating under vac and the SC is bypassed and not making any boost. No aditional fuel is needed for this type of situation. The engine should have the same emissions whether SC'd or NA under these circumstances. Now that doesn't take into account the many other mods that most SC'd cars have. But with just the SC the emmisions should be the same.

[BigMerc]

mercman
Gee,, whats a S/C thread without having someone take a vacation?? So as not to disappoint anyone, Tmac,, enjoy the beach!!!"

look what I found:

[MI2QWK4U]

mercman

look what I found:



Mercman....that just warms my soul... He so richly deserves that vacation and worked so hard to get it....

[MERCMAN]

Gee hope he doesn't get sunburned:lol:
But then again perhaps an air-to-air intercooler will keep his ambient temp down :)

[Tallboy]

Gee hope he doesn't get sunburned:lol:
But then again perhaps an air-to-air intercooler will keep his ambient temp down :)
That's just funny right there. I don't care who you are.:rofl:

[MikesMerc]

This thread is hilarious :laugh:

In fact, I find threads like this to be even funnier when I don't get banned :bop:

[dwasson]

Let's start a ban Mike thread!

[maraudernkc]

My freind got a vacation but that's some funny s#$%!

I emailed tmac1337 the photo and he laughed is a## off!

It's probably like the movie The Running Man with Arnold, where they would show the three guys that one the game and are now on some Island somewhere enjoying there vacation.

What were those guys names?



mercman

look what I found:

[maraudernkc]

Dennis, you are correct about us having a great website. This is not a pissing match. I am sure that we all feel that our kit is the best but what really matters is what the customers on this website think that are buying these supercharger kits.

You brought up IAT tempatures. We have two cars in the hottest condtions down in Florida. Both these cars have run 10 PSI at WOT and the IAT on a 90 degree Day with 75% humidity was 30 degrees over ambient. Those are pretty nasty condtions and we feel that the cars are performing fantastic. The coolant tempature does not get over 185 degrees and we are running 14 degrees of timing with no detonation showing on the computer while be driven hard under a load.

These cars are making 475 RWHP on The Dyno!!!!!! We are maxing out the 39LB Injectors.

These Procharger cars are running so good that Diablo actual had to detune them and make them safe for the cast bottom end that we are running in our Marauders.

Where are the Dyno sheets and IAT? We have them avaliable for anyone to view. You can come to Kansas City or Florida to drive and see for yourself.

I have a Dyno graph on my web site:

www.superchargemyride.com

I don't think that any one has a bad kit on this website but if someone wants a afforadable S/C kit for there MM. For $4950.00 with a Diablo chip turn key with no core charges than you no where to go.

Dennis, Why don't we let the members decide on who's kit is the best S/C for them. I suggest that we get one DR S/C car, one Trilogy car and one Procharger car and set up a weekend where members on this site can come and drive all three cars. By driving all three S/C cars side by side the members on this site can decide which S/C MM is best for them.

Florida has the most members. You have cars there. And there are Trilogy cars there.

Dennis, let me know if your up to letting the members decide which kit is best for them?






First of all let me say this, we have a great site . What I do not understand is why do we have these pissing contests over who has the best supercharger kit . I have said all along every kit sold on this site is great ! They all have proved to produce great power and reliability.





I am sold on a water to air setup . Why ? Because I have PROVED WITH DATA that our Marauders at WOT , with an outside air temp of 85 degrees , have an IAT ( Inlet Air Temperature ) at WOT and at 6000 RPM of about 12 degrees over outside air. When I made my first kit on Keith's car I used the Marauders OAT sensor in the inlet pipe and you could read IAT from the A/C control panel.

I posted this information over and over, so does that mean I have the best kit. No , that's for my customers to decide. So for any one to say that an air to air is far more efficient without data to me is misleading . Where are the dyno sheets and where is the IAT information ? I am doing an air to air kit now. I am having IAT sensors mounted on the inlet and outlet of the heat exchanger . I will map and graph this on the dyno sheet that I will post here, and if the heat exchanger does not meet my expectations and inlet air temperature specifications I will not use it.

I have an air to air on my Mark 8 it makes 530 RWHP , runs almost 10's and I know what the IAT is because I have mapped it over and over on the dyno with a huge fan in front of it, and after three passes the IAT is about 125+ . Its much higher in trafic on Florida roads . If this was a water to air it would be much lower.

If you drive your car on the highway at 65 MPH you have a huge amount of air moving across the air to air core and yes it will be very efficient . Come to a dead stop in traffic and on a Florida 100 degree day at 80% humidity when the asphalt temperature is 150 degrees !!! You can pull that heat right off the road and it kills the air to air cooler at lower speeds . This is dependent upon the heat exchanger design and placement.

Now I do not care who's SC kit you have . Some have plusses , some have minuses , but none of them are the best as compared to others . Its the drivers preferenceas to who's kit they buy. It's just a shame that it seems like we go through this every month, to me we have much better things to do.

[MERCMAN]

Well, just a matter of time. This one is gone now. Lets try to set a record,, no S/C threads this week>