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ks2kwik
02-17-2003, 03:05 AM
:help: I have been reading and trying to keep up with the mods and changes in the MM, unfortunatly I dont like the trial and failure method of modifying my wife's MM, I did that with her 2001 cobra and I still hear about that problem, Any suggestions on what works, I dont want to use a chip because when the time comes I will put a supercharger on it, I would like to do an exhaust but I can find no one who has a mandral bent H-pipe and the exhaust with some high flow chrome tips, were I live there is no emissons so I dont need cats.

Murader03
02-17-2003, 07:13 AM
With all due respect, I'd do the chip and gears first, period. You can always have the chip reprogrammed for the SC at a later date. As far as exhaust goes, I've heard of no one on the board doing this mod to date, other the LML changing out the mufflers. Mensea had work done when KB did his mods, but otherwise, in the dark here. I did replace the stock tips with pre-production units which mad the MM really sound nice.

jgc61sr2002
02-17-2003, 07:13 AM
ks2kwik - Check the photo gallery Logan has pictures of his modified exhaust system. John

martyo
02-17-2003, 08:46 AM
Marauder03: Where did you get the pre-production tips? Details please....

WolfeBros
02-17-2003, 09:24 AM
ks2kwik,
The stock intake and exhaust system on this car are almost perfect. The biggest bang for the buck is definitely the chip and changing rear end gear. If you do nothing else........do the chip.
It changes the factory shift points and wakes this thing up.
What is it you are looking for in a car ?
How much do you want to spend?
Do you want to spend it all at once or over time?

Do yourself a favor and search this site and read all the posts. There is alot of information on here to guide you. Give us alittle more information and we can steer you to where you want to be. The nice thing about this car is there is not much guess work into what mods work.

If money is no object than by all means do the supercharger.
If you are staying within a budget I would definitely do in this order:
Chip, 4:10 gear, thermostat, plugs and then headers.

I am sure others on here will concur and also give their .02 Cents as well. I hope this helps. Good luck with your quest.:)

martyo
02-17-2003, 09:30 AM
Wolfe: It was my understanding that the chip and the plugs and 'stat should be done together. The additional cost for the plugs and 'stat really shouldn't be that much of an impediment (even with the Denso plugs, its less than half the cost of the chip).

Bottom line, call Dennis and get his input. He'll put you on the right track.

RF Overlord
02-17-2003, 10:04 AM
I agree with stanley the "k"...the chip and plugs should be done as a unit...as far as the thermostat goes, that kinda depends on how cold it gets in your area...up here in MA, especially for the winter, the cooler 'stat doesn't really add much, but in the southern states, it makes more of a difference...

As WolfeBros said, the stock intake is one of the lowest-restriction intakes Ford currently has, and the exhaust is a perfect match for it...unless you're only after a change in the way it sounds, you won't get much of an improvement changing the exhaust until you put on a blower.

Stay tuned to this site for updates...Dennis is working on headers now, I believe...

SergntMac
02-17-2003, 05:02 PM
Originally posted by ks2kwik
:help: I have been reading and trying to keep up with the mods and changes in the MM, unfortunatly I dont like the trial and failure method of modifying my wife's MM, I did that with her 2001 cobra and I still hear about that problem, Any suggestions on what works, I dont want to use a chip because when the time comes I will put a supercharger on it, I would like to do an exhaust but I can find no one who has a mandral bent H-pipe and the exhaust with some high flow chrome tips, were I live there is no emissons so I dont need cats.

I'm agreeing with Wolfe and Overbored, and I have to add that there haven't been any mentions of any "failures" on these mods. Those that have followed the plan, are pleased with the results. The only shortcomming has been a grand variety in the install labor, but the parts are pretty much the same, under 600. That, my friend, buys you a lot of power for the bucks, and a lot of fun. No guessing on this stuff. The supercharger stuff is being investigated right now, I'd say you have some time to play before making that decision, and you're not wasting the chip either, it can be updated.

Ditto exhaust, leave it alone. I've been through our MM system with two pros, and the general opinion is that it's just fine, until you do supercharge. Until then, a set of flowMasters will deliver a different sound, but sound only. I take it you live outside the US? Isn't there like a 10K fine for not cats from the "G"?

Happy motoring.

CRUZTAKER
02-17-2003, 06:38 PM
Originally posted by SergntMac
......I take it you live outside the US? Isn't there like a 10K fine for not cats from the "G"?

Um Sarge, although most of us in the telecommunications industry would like to think so......I don't believe Kentucky is outside the US.

Theoretically that is.:D

ks2kwik
02-17-2003, 08:18 PM
Wow, I did not think that there was that many people out there that are willing to help out with this dilemma, I really appreciate all the info, but in july of 2000 I bought a mustang cobre and had superchips burn a chip for this car, on our way home from florida the car just shut off at 75 mph and with no power steering and power made for an interesting ride for my wife seeing how I was sleeping until the car started jumping and bucking, Just a fluke, maybe but I dont wish to take that chance again, they did replace the chip which to this day is still new in the box.
As for living out of the country, no, oldham county which does not have emissions:banana:

SergntMac
02-17-2003, 09:00 PM
Originally posted by ks2kwik
As for living out of the country, no, oldham county which does not have emissions:banana:

Well then, save up your pocket change, if you cut them cats off, Uncle Sam may invite you to one of those "special" parties the EPA holds every once in a while, not to mention the end of your 3Y/36K meal ticket.

LincMercLover
02-17-2003, 09:11 PM
I'm sure you know what to do with your O2 sensors when/if you cut those CATS off too, right?

WolfeBros
02-17-2003, 09:25 PM
StanleyK.....I have heard a couple of differing opinions on the plugs and stat. I agree that you are better off with the package. I was thinking that the colder stat and plugs really help in case you can not get the higher octane fuel. With the higher spark tables and timing and lower octance gas the stat and plugs would help to prevent detonation and running hot. I know Dennis has said ok to run the chip without the stat and colder plugs but don't run the stat and plugs without the chip.
Can anyone clarify ? Thanks

I also meant to say earlier to do chip, stat, plugs and then gears in that order.

RF Overlord
02-18-2003, 09:23 AM
WolfeBros:

You are correct, sir. Plugs and 'stat are to reduce preignition with the chip, both with and without the correct octane...and you CAN do the chip only, but shouldn't do the plugs/'stat only.

According to... :bows: Dennis :bows: :D

Leadfoot
02-18-2003, 09:51 AM
Originally posted by LincMercLover
I'm sure you know what to do with your O2 sensors when/if you cut those CATS off too, right?

If I understand correctly, the front O2 sensors control air/fuel ratio and don't need to be touched if the cats are gone. The rear O2s control emmisions and do need to be "shut off" if the cats are removed. If you remove the cats without doing anything to the rear O2s, the check engine light will come on eventually. The simplest way to eliminate the check engine light are to get MIL (malfunction indicator light) eliminators that they sell for Mustangs. The may work on MMs. I got mine from Dallas Mustang http://www.dallasmustang.com/mileliminator.htm . A bit pricey at ~$60 a pair.

Reaper948
02-18-2003, 10:24 AM
Originally posted by SergntMac
I'm agreeing with Wolfe and Overbored, and I have to add that there haven't been any mentions of any "failures" on these mods. Those that have followed the plan, are pleased with the results. The only shortcomming has been a grand variety in the install labor, but the parts are pretty much the same, under 600. That, my friend, buys you a lot of power for the bucks, and a lot of fun. No guessing on this stuff. The supercharger stuff is being investigated right now, I'd say you have some time to play before making that decision, and you're not wasting the chip either, it can be updated.

Ditto exhaust, leave it alone. I've been through our MM system with two pros, and the general opinion is that it's just fine, until you do supercharge. Until then, a set of flowMasters will deliver a different sound, but sound only. I take it you live outside the US? Isn't there like a 10K fine for not cats from the "G"?

Happy motoring.

sarge how much did you pay for the chip, stat plugs and gears?

Mike M
02-18-2003, 10:44 AM
The rear O2 sensors are actually Catalytic Converter monitors. They are used by the OBDII system to monitor Cat efficiency. Their output should be pretty smooth as compared to the O2 sensors upstream. If they have rapid up and down voltage readings that would mean the Cats are not doing their jobs. If you remove the Cats you will need to buy a emulator to replace the O2 monitors to supply the correct voltage to the OBDII so the light won’t come on.
I question is it worth the effort as Cats are not as restrictive as you might think.

Leadfoot
02-18-2003, 03:13 PM
Originally posted by Mike Mielnicki
The rear O2 sensors are actually Catalytic Converter monitors. They are used by the OBDII system to monitor Cat efficiency. Their output should be pretty smooth as compared to the O2 sensors upstream. If they have rapid up and down voltage readings that would mean the Cats are not doing their jobs. If you remove the Cats you will need to buy a emulator to replace the O2 monitors to supply the correct voltage to the OBDII so the light won’t come on.
I question is it worth the effort as Cats are not as restrictive as you might think.

The eliminators I have contain a resistor in series and a capacitor in parallel if I remember correctly. So, the resistor drops the voltage and the capacitor smooths out the peaks. An emmulator isn't necessary. A trip to Radio Shack is enough. The ECU can be programmed to ignore the rear O2s as well. I chose the quick and dirty route.

On a naturally asperated engine, removing the cats will only gain single digit hp numbers when compared to an aftermarket high flow cat. An aftermarket high flow cat will gain 10 to 15 hp roughly compared to the OE cats. On blown engines, removing the cats can gain much more, maybe 30 hp. Someone here who actually tunes vehicles can probably give better numbers. The numbers I gave are based on what I've read and my aging memory.

SergntMac
02-18-2003, 04:05 PM
Originally posted by Reaper948
sarge how much did you pay for the chip, stat plugs and gears?

Reap...I bought my chip, gear, stat and plugs from Dennis, and he did a right good deal for me back then. 3 days, UPS to my front door.

Please remember that Dennis is a business man with a family, and subject to changing cost factors on the stuff he resells to us. It would not be kind, or, fair of me to quote my buying price of six months ago.

So much could have changed since then, no sense in cutting further into his meager (albeit earned and deserved) profit. Call Dennis for today's pricing, but be assured you should stay under 600. in parts.

Keep in mind that since the East coast storm is upon us, the shipping may have changed too. I've noticed that UPS has added a pricing schedule that now includes a "fuel" factor to it's customary weight/distance charges, and that's something Dennis cannot control.

Call him at 904.276.5003, FLA. business hours, get a quote from him, okay? Sorry, Reap, just don't want to step into this area right now.



PS. added after post.
Guys! Listen up! I've tried to drop the hint kindly, but you're not hearing me. So, time to bang a drum in your ear!

PLEASE STOP this discussion of "removing/side stepping" cats. Our Uncle Sam is very weird on this, and discussion of "tampering" in any manner, is like sufficient evidence of actual removal. Yes, it's that weird. I'd rather defend Logan and appointed moderators against child porn, before getting involved with this stuff. I've seen two close friends get hit with heavy 10k plus fines, for having such discussions. Yes, it's that weird. It is...The EPA, after all.

Please...If you must exchange your thoughts on cats, do so privately, between yourselves. DO NOT post anything more here, about removing or adjusting cats. That conduct is strictly and closely controlled, just don't do it, okay?

Honestly, there is no real performance gain here anyway, but the thought exchange is policed. A friend of mine is a State of IL. Dept. of Agricultural Special Agent, with federal powers. Some of his daytime is spent hunting down counterfit food stamps, other time is spent driving around to muffler shops, looking for the greedy torch.

Get the hint...Knock it off. Why have your conversation posted here, eh? It's not like there isn't any record to research, eh? Right? Sorry to be the tea drinker at your party, but I feel I should be, in our best interest. Just...Shut up, okay?

Okay...I'm done. Do what you want.

LincMercLover
02-18-2003, 04:06 PM
Mensrea... yoo hoo... Hey buddy ol' pal! :D

Logan
02-18-2003, 05:23 PM
Cat technology has gotten to the point where they're not that much of a imposition on the power department. There are better ways to get the power, without running afoul of the G men and getting in some serious trouble..

RF Overlord
02-18-2003, 06:05 PM
Originally posted by SergntMac
I take it you live outside the US? Isn't there like a 10K fine for not cats from the "G"?


Originally posted by SergntMac
Guys! Listen up! I've tried to drop the hint kindly, but you're not hearing me. So, time to bang a drum in your ear!


Sarge: Apparently the above-mentioned "hint" was too obtuse...it seems that only I, the RF OVERLORD, got it the first time...

J/K :lol:

SergntMac
02-19-2003, 04:45 AM
And in color too, RF, you're the man...

Leadfoot
02-19-2003, 08:23 PM
There are no emmisions regulations in Michigan. No one checks for cats.

SergntMac - Are you saying removing cats is worse than child porn? What does exceeding the speed limit equal? Selling crack?

SergntMac
02-20-2003, 06:29 AM
Originally posted by Leadfoot
There are no emmisions regulations in Michigan. No one checks for cats. SergntMac - Are you saying removing cats is worse than child porn? What does exceeding the speed limit equal? Selling crack?

No, that's not what I said, Leadfoot, and not what I meant anyone to hear or understand. Let's not get silly over this.

With regards to Michigan, or, any other state emissions program, the cats are federal territory, and investigative teams from the EPA have been at their jobs for years now. Two business in my immediate area have been closed down and the owners/managers physically locked up over cutting cats. They also went through the business records, and made quite a few visits to customer's homes. The owner and managers ultimately paid fines over 10,000. dollars, and both shops were permanently shut down. That's what I want people to hear and understand, it's not a fun thing to be dragged through this, (I was one of the customers) and the G men take their jobs seriously. Besides,there isn't any real performance gain in it for us, the cats today are not what they once were, and are pretty transparent in performance topics.

I don't mind you having fun with me, Leadfoot, but don't let the message get lost.

MMpridenjoy
02-20-2003, 06:50 AM
God Bless America and the First Ammendment!!!!

Leadfoot
02-20-2003, 10:02 AM
Originally posted by SergntMac
No, that's not what I said, Leadfoot, and not what I meant anyone to hear or understand. Let's not get silly over this.


Silly? Actually, that is how I interpreted it. I'm not trying to start a flame war. But, I call them as I see them.

Your second post is much better and more clearly makes your point. You discuss the legal aspect. But, there is also the moral aspect. Each individual has to answer the moral question of removing the cats and its impact on the environment. (Stock emmisions are not the greatest either). Some of the materials used in cats are gathered in strip mines which are not environmentally friendly.

For the most part, I agree there are no substantial benefits from removing cats. But, when you ask for a lot out of an engine, they can restrict it though. I put very few miles on my Mustang each year. So, I didn't have a problem removing them. I'm sure there are more emmisions put out in one NASCAR race than what my Mustang will produce in one year. I would never remove the cats from my daily driver.

WolfeBros
02-20-2003, 10:57 AM
Sarge, I heard the drum and appreciate it.

I think the Sarge was doing the members and operator of this BBS a great service by posting his friendly reminder. If a bored EPA weenie wanted to make a pinch it wouldn't take a rocket scientist to track down guys that are boasting of having their converters removed on here (or any other board) and slap em with a $10k fine and possible impoundment of the car. There are Feds that are paid to do such enforcement. I would rather have the friendly warning then the ticket any day !

Now who you calling obtuse RF ??? :D

SergntMac
02-20-2003, 11:23 AM
Originally posted by Leadfoot
SergntMac - Are you saying removing cats is worse than child porn? What does exceeding the speed limit equal? Selling crack?


Well, I went back and read up one more time, Leadfoot, and if this is the message you get from my original statement, there is no point to discussing it further. Thanks for the tip though, I'll be sure to be more specific in the future.

MAD-3R
02-20-2003, 11:39 AM
I think Sarge ment that the G men hammer people about Cats with almost total disregard for Due prosses, where with Child porn, they take you to court, THEN put in general populace as a "short eyes"

Leadfoot
02-20-2003, 03:35 PM
Originally posted by SergntMac
I'd rather defend Logan and appointed moderators against child porn, before getting involved with [removing cats].

My bad. When I first read it, I thought you meant that you would rather defend child porn than defend removing cats. Sorry.

Anyway, I had my say. So I'll drop it too.

SergntMac
02-20-2003, 03:45 PM
Not a problem here, Leadfoot, I think it's sometimes better to give a misunderstanding some more air, than not. Again, thanks for the input, and I will work on my expression and clarity too.