4:30 gears

[Big House]

Question? Are 4:30 gears to tall for the daily driver and would it be necessary to upgrade the driveshaft if highways speeds occasionally exceed 110. I am ready to buy but torm between 4:10's and 4:30's. Get at me. Thanks,

Big House

[merc]

4:10's or 4:30 may require an upgraded shaft. Vibration around 80 + MPH.
Also, do you have a chip or tuner? I would start the upgrade process with computer modifications First, Second attend a C.A.M meeting, and third locate a good shop.

To answer your first question; 4:10's would be my pick.

[RF Overlord]

Anything numerically higher than the stock 3.55s does require the use of the AMMC driveshaft if you want to drive at speeds much above 75-80 or so; the limit is even lower if you get 4.30s or 4.56s.

As far as which of the two ratios you mention is "better", only you can decide...4.10s are generally recognised as offering the best overall balance between around-town and highway driving in terms of improved performance, minimal loss of fuel economy, minimal increase in engine RPM, etc. 4.30s are not THAT much different and if your driving is primarily around town, may be the better choice...if you do a LOT of highway driving, maybe the 4.10s would be better...we even have a few members with 4.56s, so 4.30 isn't all that extreme...each situation is different...

[duhtroll]

I disagree.

A new driveshaft is not REQUIRED. It depends upon your driving habits and how your particular car performs.

I have 4.10s and had no problem with the driveshaft, even at the track.

Will the driveshaft make it better? Of course.

Do you need it? No. But you don't need 4.10s, either. Just clarifying.

-A

[RF Overlord]

A new driveshaft is not REQUIRED. It depends upon your driving habits and how your particular car performs.

'troll is right...I mis-spoke...the driveshaft is not REQUIRED, but you would be playing with fire if you regularly drive at higher speeds on the highway without one. Other members have had the tailshaft bushing and seal damaged and didn't even realise it was happening.

This thread (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5163) may help explain things...

[Directedby]

'troll is right...I mis-spoke...the driveshaft is not REQUIRED, but you would be playing with fire if you regularly drive at higher speeds on the highway without one. Other members have had the tailshaft bushing and seal damaged and didn't even realise it was happening.

This thread (http://www.mercurymarauder.net/forums/showthread.php?t=5163) may help explain things...

I love my 4:10's - on freeway I feel anything more would drive me nuts - just perfect.

I have stock drive shaft and have had no problems. Taken it to track - perfect - no vibration.

Also at 110 MPH, no vibration.

[CRUZTAKER]

I disagree.Yeah...I'm in that consensus as well. I fully understand that our OEM driveshaft is not the best it could be. But the occational jaunt over 80 is not a reason to fork $525 for a hi performance driveshaft.

I have driven to Florida....Texas....and elsewhere for as many as 800 miles stopping for only fuel, while averaging speeds of 80 mph and frequently running 90-105 for many miles at a time.

I have NEVER experienced driveshaft resonance. I HAVE topped out with the 4:10's at 145mph....I ran out of balls at 5600 rpm in OD....perhaps there was more...I do not care to find out.

I am not implying that it isn't a possibility, just that I have never experienced it. Nor have I damaged my rear 4:10 gear assy. as a result. 26,000 miles and going strong.

I must confess however, when this topic originally surfaced in late 2002, I too believed that this was an issue for some drivers. I fell into that catergory of drivers. Long term, high speed freeway driving with a 4:10 gear set. My solution was to replace my OEM driveshaft with an older part offered on the PI Crown Victorias with a governer rated to 144 mph or so.

I never experience resonence with the OEM, and I haven't with the MMC PI either. I stand by my personal findings, and firmly believe the $180 I spent was well worth NOT spending over $500 on a custom shaft rated for nascar speeds. It's just totally unrealistic.

[stevengerard]

I have 4.10s and OEM drive shaft - I'm fine with both.

[mpearce]

I have 4.10s and OEM drive shaft - I'm fine with both.
Same with me. No problems. Race all the time.

-Mat

[BillyGman]

I've had 3.55's, 4.10's, and now 4.56's in my Marauder, and the stock driveshaft was just fine right up to 120 MPH with both the 3.55's, and the 4.10's installed. it wasn't until I put the 4.56's in the rear that the stock driveshaft began to vibrate at 90 MPH, and now that I have the $500 shaft, it still vibrates, but not until 120 MPH, so I can live with that.


If I had it to do over again, I would've taken a friend's advice and tried to have the stock shaft re-balanced at high speeds. Perhaps that might be the only thing that's neded anyway. These aftermarket "Metal Matrix" ("MMX") driveshafts look EXACTLY the same as our stock driveshafts do. :rolleyes:

As far as the decision between the 4.10's and the 4.30's goes, it isn't even worht your thought, because the difference between the two ratios is so miniscule, that you will NOT feel the diference in acceleration between the two. The RPM differnce between 4.10's and 4.30 gears at 70 MPH in O/D will only be 120 RPM's. You will not notice any difference at all between the two, especially with such a heavy car.

[merc]

The picture displayed shows scoring and burning on the O.E.M yoke. I have had 2 seals replaced before I upgraded the shaft.

[Big House]

Merc,


Where can I get quality shop work done?

[merc]

Merc,


Where can I get quality shop work done?

I will P.M you with details.

[CRUZTAKER]

Hey Merc, how did you discover the yoke damage?

[merc]

The discovery of this damage was completely accidental. Ford Nut drove my car in Atlanta and diagnosed the vibration problem as shaft wobble. After driving his car and Todd’s it became clear I had a problem, but I was not sure if the rear end contributed also. That’s why it’s import to drive other modified Marauders. I have learned many things from others. :banana2:

[BillyGman]

The picture displayed shows scoring and burning on the O.E.M yoke. I have had 2 seals replaced before I upgraded the shaft.Very intersting info, however, Todd has also had similar issues with his car from the aftermarket "MMX" driveshaft. I was told by an aftermarket company that the driveshaft for the Marauder is difficult to make since it is so long. I was a bit surprised to hear that since I believe that many truck driveshafts are much longer. however, purhaps the driveshafts of trucks aren't exposed to the kind of RPM's that we generally expose the Marauder driveshaft to. So maybe that would explain it.

BTW, I purchased the MMX driveshaft right from Dynotech (the manufacture) and despite the stories I had heard about their driveshafts being balanced at 6,000 RPM, or 12,000 RPM, they told me it was only 5,000 RPM, and then when I called back a second time, the person on the telephone told me that they will NOT give out that information, and when I voiced a concern about the balancing not being at a high enough RPM because of my choice of gear ratio being 4.56's, they assured me that I would NOT experience any driveshaft vibration from the driveshaft that they sell for the Marauder at any speed.

However, my concerns were correct, and they were wrong since it DOES vibrate at 120 MPH. I never took it off and sent it back to them since it is very rare that I drive that fast on the public roads. And even at the dragstrip my trap speeds are 114 MPH, so it is something I can live with. The only other place I found that was willing to make a driveshaft for the Marauder was Sean Hyland, and they're way too expensive, and another place called Denny's driveshafts, which I also found on the internet. But Denny's said that the wait time was atleast a couple months.

[schuvwj]

I have 4:30s on my MM which is a daily driver. I have not noticed any vibrations with my stock drive shaft however I do have a MMX drive shaft.
I get about 19 to 20 mpg and have had no problems for 43,000 miles.
I run about 2,500 rpm at 70 mph.

[BUCKWHEAT]

My first MM had 4:10's & I got vibrations so I went to the police interceptor driveline with no further vibration. I now have 4:30's with the metal matrix shaft and also no problems.

John



Question? Are 4:30 gears to tall for the daily driver and would it be necessary to upgrade the driveshaft if highways speeds occasionally exceed 110. I am ready to buy but torm between 4:10's and 4:30's. Get at me. Thanks,

Big House

[BillyGman]

I have 4:30s on my MM which is a daily driver.........I run about 2,500 rpm at 70 mph. There ya go.........my car was reving at 2,400 RPM's at 70 MPH when I had the 4.10's. So the above quote confirms my previous statements about there being very little difference between the 4.30's and the 4.10's. So little, that you wouldn't feel any difference in the acceleration characteristics when you hit the loud pedal. ;)

[Joe Walsh]

The only other place I found that was willing to make a driveshaft for the Marauder was Sean Hyland, and they're way too expensive, and another place called Denny's driveshafts, which I also found on the internet. But Denny's said that the wait time was atleast a couple months.


Billy, I (and BKGrandMarquis) had Carbon Fiber Driveshafts made for our vehicles. The Carbon Fiber Driveshaft is a work of art and weighs only 13 Lbs.
It is balanced to something like 10,000 rpm. BKGrandMarquis posted pictures and information on this driveshaft a few weeks ago.
It is made by PST(Precision Shaft Technologies Inc.) 1 888-575-7888. Cost is @ $800. PST makes Carbon Fiber driveshafts for some of the baddest & fastest Mustangs on the tracks.
It is not cheap, but it is the best! If you are running lots of HP/TORQUE and LOTS OF RPM it's the way to go.

[BillyGman]

Billy, I (and BKGrandMarquis) had Carbon Fiber Driveshafts made for our vehicles. The Carbon Fiber Driveshaft is a work of art and weighs only 13 Lbs.
It is balanced to something like 10,000 rpm. BKGrandMarquis posted pictures and information on this driveshaft a few weeks ago.
It is made by PST(Precision Shaft Technologies Inc.) 1 888-575-7888. Cost is @ $800. PST makes Carbon Fiber driveshafts for some of the baddest & fastest Mustangs on the tracks.
It's is not cheap, but it is the best! If you are running lots of HP/TORQUE and LOTS OF RPM it's the way to go.Hmmmm, I didn't know that. Sounds like some good info there Joe. thanks. Do they have a website? If so, I'd like to take a look at it. however, I think that if I ever do decide to do anything else concerning this matter, I'd try getting the factory stock driveshaft re-balanced at a higher speed. that's what i should've did in the first place I believe.it would've been a whole lot less expensive, and might have even yielded better results than those I've obtained with that MMX shaft.

[Joe Walsh]

Hmmmm, I didn't know that. Sounds like some good info there Joe. thanks. Do they have a website?


Ask and Ye shall receive....www.pstds.com

[BillyGman]

Thanks Joe.

[Joe Walsh]

If anyone is going to order a PST Carbon Fiber Driveshaft for their Marauder, PM me first as I was the 'guinea pig' for the Marauder and I had to modify my PST's front yoke in order for it to fit correctly on my '03 Marauder.
I think that the issue is now resolved for any future Marauders...but check with me if you want 'the skinny'.
Joe

[sfsv]

:beatnik: As a 15 year Ford Lincoln Mercury service advisor who is the Ford fleet specialist, Law enforcement vehicle specialist, and Lincoln Limocare specialist for our dealership. I find it funny that debate goes on about the driveshaft upgrade. I have seen numerous yokes and tailhousing fail on 98 CVPI that did not PGM for the speed limiter, rear spring replacement, and tailhousing upgrade. MM owners must realize that CVPI are driven harder than MM. I have some troopers who will but on 50k miles in 18 months (especially when some my troopers were dispatched to the hurricane ravaged areas several times). The troopers definitley drive their vehicles and they soon expose any short comings in design, engineering, or componet intergity. So in saying this, I would recommend the driveshaft upgrade to anyone who is removing their top speed govenor and/or installing higher numerical gears. For the record you will not see driveshaft concern at the drag strip and most times you will not feel the vibration until the tailhousing bushing becomes excessively worn. The 98 CVPI's driveshaft concern were mostly from the troopers who worked the midnight shift. Less traffic, higher pursuit speeds and more miles traveled at pursuit speeds. The Panther team is not foolish, they limit the 3.27 geared CVPI to 129 mph and 3.55 geared to 117 mph as they do with the MM, that should tell you'll enough right there.

[BillyGman]

Mr. "SFSV",what would the rear springs have to do with the driveshaft issues? And what exactly are you talking about concerning the "tailhousing upgrade"? And I'm not so sure about your statement concerning that we would "NOT feel any vibration unless the tailshaft bushing was excessively worn" I installed the 4.56 gears when my Marauder merely had 4,000 miles on the odometer, and I immediately felt a vey obvious vibration at 90 MPH, and the same day that I installed the MMX driveshaft, that vibration was gone until I hit 120 MPH, and it's been like that ever since for the last 20,000 miles that i put on the car. So your statement cannot be completely true.

If you have valuable info for us to share, then it will be appreciated sir. However, blanket statements will not always apply, nor would they neccessarily be accurate. Some of the points that you've made I believe do have merit, but unless you go more into detail, I don't believe that they're helpful, and are questionable at best. I mean no offense, and I for one do welcome your comments. But blanket statements just don't help.

you've mentioned that you've seen alot of CV's, but what about Marauders? Is there really any difference in the Marauder driveshafts as compared to the police interceptor ones? And if so, what exactly are the differences? Can you be certain that the only difference in the two isn't merely what speed thay are balanced at? Answers to questions like these are what really matters here. So I sincerely hope that you can help.

[Cobra25]

I have the 410's and love them. Mine I dont used it for work or long trips so if I knew then what I know now I'd would of got the 430's. But for back and forth to work or trips the 410's are great.

[Bonedriver]

I usually just sit and read about you guys' wonderful cars, but had to speak up... so pardon the interuption.

I have done alot of research on the AMMX driveshaft. You can read about it here:
http://www.crownvic.us/forum/showthread.php?t=11156

I don't know why anyone would spend close to $500 (over $600 from ford!) on a shaft that you can get for around $75 bucks at almost any junkyard off a 99 or 2000 CVPI! With little more than $175 bucks you can have all the yokes and u-joints replaced and rebalanced!!! Of course, your gonna need the extended tailshaft housing (that comes with a new bearing), and that is gonna set ya back about $120.

EDIT: I just realized that you guys might actually have the extended tailshaft housing already... Can someone verify this? If you do then this would be even more a cheaper mod!

I did this with my car and had the work done at Joint and Clutch, Inc. and I know for a fact it was turned up to 7000 RPMs. And they polished it for me too! I started going around and pulling them out of junkyard and selling them to friends... hell I got one right now in my trunk!

These shafts are a gift from Ford Fleet... take advantage of it!

[BillyGman]

I used the link that you've provided, which takes us to another board where you explain that there are painted stripes on those driveshafts, and that it's a way to identify them. However, those sound to me exactly like the same markings that are on our factory stock Marauder drive shafts. So can you be sure that those shafts aren't actually the same ones that Marauders already came with from the factory? Because if they are the same, then that is NOT an upgrade for our cars at all. And the ford part # that you've given in that thread on the other board does not show up on the fordparts.com webpage. I typed it in, and it stated that there are no items under that part #

[Bonedriver]

OK... I do not want to break any rules here about blatant sales pitches, but to clarify the whole MMC shaft markings, check out my post where I am selling them on another board. I do this only to point out pictures and an explanation of the markings on MMC and non-MMC driveshafts as I cannot resize the pictures I do have on this computer I am at currently...

http://www.crownvic.us/forum/showthread.php?t=11125

Those stripes are used by Ford and Alcoa in the manufacturing process. The only way to distinguish the regular MMC driveshafts and non-MMC driveshafts is the "MMC Police Alcoa..." stencil that goes around the shaft - and it could be located at wither end of the shaft. There are a few non-MMC driveshafts that have a "POLICE" stencil lengthways in roughly 1" tall blue letters in the center of the shaft.
Both MMC and non-MMC driveshafts are 1" shorter than the regular steel shaft and require the Extended Tailshaft Housing.

EDIT: I just realized that you guys might actually have the extended tailshaft housing already... Can someone verify this? If you do then this would be even more a cheaper mod!

Click my sig pic and scroll down and you will see a picture of my shaft after it got sanded and polished. It's a little dirty from where I had been holding it!

[BillyGman]

Hmmmmm, okay, thanks very much for the info. I don't really know id we have the shorter drive shafts with the extended tailshafts on our cars or not. This stuff sure can get to be like a tangled web to unravel.

[Bonedriver]

Unless I'm mistaken you have the dimensions of the extended tailshaft housing so it will work, but it's a different part# cause the 99/00 CV P71 housing has a spot for the VSS "speedo" gear which you guys don't. I am investigating...

[DTR04]

EDIT: I just realized that you guys might actually have the extended tailshaft housing already... Can someone verify this? If you do then this would be even more a cheaper mod!
As it just so happens I was thinking about this the other day while the Marauder was on the rack. IIRC, the tailshaft housings are 10" or 11". The Marauder has the 11" housing.